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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: ways and means on May 18, 2011, 08:30:11 PM
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A few question about Glamours or more exactly veils, you can obviously ambush an opponent with veils but does doing this bring down the veil or can you remain hidden after attacking?
Second can you ambush the same enemy mulitple times in an exchange with veils, if they can't see you it makes sense they could be ambushed but it seems very powerful?
Is veiling a suplemental or a full action, the description seems to imply a supplemental (you don't need to roll to bring it up and it mentions a moments effort)?
Can veils or seemings be used as defense the 'hitting thin air' trick?
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Letting an opponent continue to attack while under cover of the veil strikes me as very unsatisfying, story wise. I'd allow the first attack as a surprise, but after that, no Veil.
Veiling is supplemental, but does require some concentration. Which is another reason why I don't think a continuously invisible opponent should exist.
As a block, certainly; roll Deceit (usually) to see how well you misled your opponent.
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I allow the first attack as a surprise, with a free tag on "hidden" or some similar aspect, and after that you still have the aspect, but you have to spend Fate on it as normal. This is assuming that the Deceit roll isn't beaten.
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Veiling is supplemental
Is there a specific source for this? I always thought veiling with Glamours would be similar to any casting with Channeling/Evocation, i.e. a standard action.
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Ummm...because that's the way I've been running it?
I don't have the books with me atm, and we're generally too busy playing to look up specific rules. So, I've just let the one Changeling with Glamours use it pretty freely.
So, I could be completely wrong about that one. But I'm still against multiple stealth attacks.
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As a rule of thumb standard actions require rolls and veils does not require a roll to form it puts it into the supplemental catergory for me.
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As a rule of thumb standard actions require rolls and veils does not require a roll to form it puts it into the supplemental catergory for me.
But it requires a Deceit or Discipline roll to determine the difficulty of seeing through the veil.
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No you only use your deceit or discipline to oppose attempts at detection, so as long as no one is actively looking for a veiled threat you don't have to roll. It does not work like a block at your roll strength you get to roll against everyones attempt to find you so a different roll for you each time. Those rolls are defensive actions so free.
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I require a standard action to change the glamour, but that's a game balance thing instead of a RAW thing.
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Do note that we have seen not-people attack under continious veils. (the skinwalker, for one)
In that case, the first attack might be a surprise. Then the attacker attacks normally but can use the veil as defense to avoid reprisal. (that's how I am running it, not RAW. By RAW a veil is pierced neither when the deceit roll is beaten nor when you attack)
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I haven't had a chance to really use this power in-game, so any tips or hints would be appreciated.
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I'd require a standard action to do anything with a glamour that corresponds to a game-mechanic standard action. So a veil (block vs. perception) is a standard action to create - for a veil from the glamours power, that's still either a deception or discipline roll. A personal illusion might require a standard action to gain an aspect - say, "bland and forgettable", or "not quite as big as I look". Maintaining such a glamour is a non-action, however - it will simply remain present until broken (typically end of scene (or when you attack or otherwise take obvious action) for veils, or sunrise for seemings).
On the other hand, if you want to create an illusory placard with some pithy slogan on it, or change your hair color without creating an actual aspect for it - those would be free actions.
I am, however, firmly of the opinion that a veil should break if you attack (though Belial's ruling of having it not reduce defense to zero after the first hit is also a decent option). While we've seen one exception to this, I feel that's a creature with a specific additional power, and, more importantly, it is (as Bruce mentions) a singularly unsatisfying combat tactic.
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Glamours Veils aren't a block against alertness though, glamour veils are a state of invisibilty in which if someone is attempts to find you (so hundreds of the most eagle eyed cops will not see you if they are not looking for you) they maker an opposed roll (not the block mechanic with a stationary block strength) which if they succeed they spot signs you are there.
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Is there anywhere in the book that actually says invisible opponents means a 0 on the defence roll? I thought that was only for surprise attacks.
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Is there anywhere in the book that actually says invisible opponents means a 0 on the defence roll? I thought that was only for surprise attacks.
It doesn't get much more surprising than something you can't see.
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Only the first time though. The fifth time you're attacked by someone invisible it's hardly going to come as a shock.
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I would debate how well anyone could defend themselves against someone they couldn't percieve, I will waive my sword about perhaps I will get lucky.
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An alternate way of looking at Veils is that they are a magical substitue for a stealth that gains the benefit of "Solve Improbable or Impossible Problems". In other words, someone standing in the middle of a brightly lit and empty courtyard probably couldn't hide with mundane Stealth, but could with a Veil. However, it's still a stealth substitute, and only lasts as long as you are making a reasonable effort to be "stealthy" within the context of the magic. So it would continue to work if you carefully walked across a stage in front of a auditorium full of people, but it would stop working if you stopped in the middle of the stage to belt out a few verses of "I'm a Little Teapot". It would continue to work as you maneuvered "Right behind my victim" and "Readied a devastating blow", but would be cancelled once you actually attacked. You could probably even use it to vanish from right in front of someone in combat, assuming the contested roll succeeded, because the Veil "Solve(s) Improbable or Impossible Problems".
Yes, I realize that the RAW describes Veils as a block to perception. But I think the above conceptualization works better. Note that examples of skinwalkers having Veils that are much more powerful than this falls under the realm of Plot Device. (Or perhaps it's really a powerful "defensive block" with a special effect?)
Edit: apparently I accidentally struck out the latter part of my post. Fixed.
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I would debate how well anyone could defend themselves against someone they couldn't percieve, I will waive my sword about perhaps I will get lucky.
Two Words: Daredevil (okay thats one word, but you get the idea...rely on other senses)
also
Its a game.
its doable in every other system. Why not this one?
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I can see "I'm using glamour to stand twenty away and shoot you with a silenced gun" working better than "I'm using glamour as I grapple you".
If you can't see or hear me and I can shoot, take a few steps, shoot again, etc then that's an attack that's almost impossible to defend against.
Richard
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I really like Becq idea.
Two Words: Daredevil (okay thats one word, but you get the idea...rely on other senses)
also
Its a game.
its doable in every other system. Why not this one?
I am not certain but I think veils like most fairy illusions are more than just visual.
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I can see "I'm using glamour to stand twenty away and shoot you with a silenced gun" working better than "I'm using glamour as I grapple you".
If you can't see or hear me and I can shoot, take a few steps, shoot again, etc then that's an attack that's almost impossible to defend against.
Richard
Grabbing at straws for that one....3rd ed DnD "tremorsense"? Uh...spatial awareness?...constant mind probing all sentient beings nearby....? Thats all I got.
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I really like Becq idea.
I am not certain but I think veils like most fairy illusions are more than just visual.
echolocation should still work things should boucne back from their mass yes?
Thats about all I got for that response.
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Don't grab for threads - use The Sight. It sees what's what - and imprints the image on your mind forever as it tries to deal mental stress.
For someone without the sight, run and hope you make it behind cover.
The sickness of Glamour is one of the reasons the rules as written restrict who can have them. Most people ignore that you have to be a faery or a changeling to get them, but that's what the rules as written say.
Richard
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Uhm I had to be all raw on you but the pure fae of considerable power is a must only of greater glamours, glamours itself has no musts so as long as you have a plausible reason to have it (fairy artifact, blessing of a fairy god mother, funny and potentially painful relationship with a high sidhe etc).
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Regarding hearing, tremorsense, echolocation, etc: While such things work well against D&D-style Invisibility (which basically works against visual perception only), it wouldn't work against Dresdenverse-style Veils (which work against perception in general, including forms of perception which aren't visual). This is not to say that there aren't forms of perception that *do* pierce veils (or that pierce them more easily than normal senses), but this is probably best handled by Declarations. For example, you might Declare that a particular Veil is weak to a particular non-standard detection method, and if that Declaration was accepted then it would be true.
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Regarding hearing, tremorsense, echolocation, etc: While such things work well against D&D-style Invisibility (which basically works against visual perception only), it wouldn't work against Dresdenverse-style Veils (which work against perception in general, including forms of perception which aren't visual). This is not to say that there aren't forms of perception that *do* pierce veils (or that pierce them more easily than normal senses), but this is probably best handled by Declarations. For example, you might Declare that a particular Veil is weak to a particular non-standard detection method, and if that Declaration was accepted then it would be true.
Veils stop the ground from shaking and sonic vibrations pass through them? Butcher/Dresden Files RPG say magic is based in physics. I thinks I found a loop hole.
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I'll give you a choice of two possible answers:
1) Not at all. What veils do, however, is stop observers from noticing such things. (This is probably true for some types of veils.)
2) Yes they do. In the same way that veils bend light (which is physically possible, though not to the extent possible with Dresdenverse magic -- see real-life applications such as prisms and mirages) they also muffle the vibrations caused by footsteps, bend or eliminate energy (such as sound waves used in hearing and echolocation), etc.
Note, by the way, that the effects above are not absolute: short of a infinitely strong veil, there will be traces left behind that a character with sufficiently powerful senses can detect. Ie, someone who rolls over the strength of the veil penetrates it. Just not automatically, as with D&D tremorsense.
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People can't dodge bullets. They run around with their athletics in a pattern that makes them harder to hit. Not knowing where the attack is coming from makes that athletic roll harder, but not impossible.
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People can't dodge bullets. They run around with their athletics in a pattern that makes them harder to hit. Not knowing where the attack is coming from makes that athletic roll harder, but not impossible.
People with supernatural/mythic strength most certainly can dodge bullets.
If you can run as fast as a moving car, it's not that hard to just move a few few over every half a second.
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People with supernatural/mythic strength most certainly can dodge bullets.
If you can run as fast as a moving car, it's not that hard to just move a few few over every half a second.
I think you mean speed.
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Uhm I had to be all raw on you but the pure fae of considerable power is a must only of greater glamours, glamours itself has no musts so as long as you have a plausible reason to have it (fairy artifact, blessing of a fairy god mother, funny and potentially painful relationship with a high sidhe etc).
You're right - it's under the "Fairy Magic" section but there's no "must".
Not even in the preorder.
Which means I should check the book before I preach about the RAW.
Richard
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You're right - it's under the "Fairy Magic" section but there's no "must".
Not even in the preorder.
Which means I should check the book before I preach about the RAW.
Richard
Owned.