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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Taran on May 11, 2011, 04:40:54 PM

Title: Sunlight spell
Post by: Taran on May 11, 2011, 04:40:54 PM
I'm playing a Soul Fire wielder.

I want to make a spell that fills a zone with Sunlight.

My original idea was to just make it a maneuver that puts the Aspect "sunny" on a scene, but there was some argument as to whether that would damage vampires.  Everyone agreed that it would satisfy catches.

I know sunlight does environmental damage, but do I need to incorporate that into the spell?  Making it a weapon"X"?

I assume if I have to do both the maneuver and the damage it would fall under Thaumaturgy which I could do at the speed of evocation if the complexity wasn't too high.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: ways and means on May 11, 2011, 04:59:57 PM
Is your character Happy ?
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: paul_Harkonen on May 11, 2011, 05:24:33 PM
Because of the vague and nebulous nature of the Fate system and the DFRPG rules (especially for spell casting) this is actually really simple.  They are two different spells.  One spell you merely wish to fill the area with sunlight.  It lights up the area, applies the aspect "Sunny" or "Covered in Sunshine" or whatever you prefer.  This could also be used to satisfy the catch of vampires, depending on GM rulings.  When you use it to attack vamps however, it becomes a different spell (rules wise) even though the in game affects are the same.  If you want to do damage to them then it becomes an area of effect weapon X attack spell, that probably still satisfies the catch for vamps.

It is the same logic as conjuring water.  You can create a stream of water that puts out fires and covers the ground applying "wet" or you can point that water at something and use it like a fire hose, in which case it is an attack.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Taran on May 11, 2011, 05:39:38 PM
Is your character Happy ?

My character is, in fact, not happy; but his Sponsor is.  ;)

When you use it to attack vamps however, it becomes a different spell (rules wise) even though the in game affects are the same.  If you want to do damage to them then it becomes an area of effect weapon X attack spell, that probably still satisfies the catch for vamps.

 

O.k.  So thaumaturgy is the way to go, then.  I just wanted to recreate an on-going sunlight environmental effect spell.  One where normal mortals who spend too much time make rolls to resist sunburn every hour or so, but vamps and stuff get dusted.

With an evocation version, I guess I would just say that bright hot sunlight baths the area(at weapon 7) and only vamps take the damage.

EDIT: weapon 5 +2 shifts for the zone
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Tsunami on May 11, 2011, 05:55:28 PM
Rules wise it's easy to create a spell that does more or less what you wan't.

Except for the selectiveness of area attacks... the fact that you have to hit everything in a zone imposes an important limitation on them.

A spell that kills vamps like ants under a magnifying glass, but leaves everything else standing?
Boy, the White Council would have wiped the Red out years ago if something like that existed.

I'd say you have two ways, either maneuver and place an aspect like "Holy Light" (soulfire provides for the ability to make Holy magic, so catches would be satisfied), or make a straight up area attack that damages everyone and everything, satisfying catches like "holy stuff".
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: sinker on May 11, 2011, 06:26:11 PM
I know people will be less than happy with this but the way you describe it earlier I would actually call it a maneuver. There's just no way in the system to create ongoing damage effects, or at the very least it takes some really loose interpretations of things to do so. I suppose you could use your next exchange to extend an attack spell, but normally attacks don't technically last throughout an exchange (so that they're still around to extend) like blocks and maneuvers do and it also gets around the stress limit on magic (giving you 4-6 attack spells for only two stress) which makes me a little nervous. I don't even think they have a mechanic for thaumaturgy to do continuous damage to something.

So, if you really want an ongoing area of sunlight that damages vamps I'd call it a maneuver to create an aspect of "Holy light" or similar, but don't expect it to vaporize all the vamps. Mooks may go down, but likely the bigger vamps would simply dash out of the space smoldering, and then hover at the edges, waiting for the light to die. Or maybe just run off swearing revenge or something.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: ways and means on May 11, 2011, 07:10:45 PM
I think you can definatly increase the duration on attack spell
(click to show/hide)
, the only trouble is that an enemy can step out of a zone of fire making your extra durations useless. Thamaturgy can do everything Evocation can so it could also do solar area bonbardment.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Belial666 on May 11, 2011, 07:20:25 PM
Quote
A spell that kills vamps like ants under a magnifying glass, but leaves everything else standing?
Boy, the White Council would have wiped the Red out years ago if something like that existed.

We are talking about Soulfire (and/or other sponsored magic) here. Thaumaturgy as evocation has no problem creating effects keyed to specific creature types. They just need a small extra cost. Besides, conjuring sunlight (which would be adjudicated as a keyed Ward IMHO) is not the only way to deal with creatures of darkness when you got Soulfire;

Rain of Vengeance

Type: Conjuration (soulfire) 12 shifts
Effect: You conjure a downpour of holy water, banishing the unholy
Mechanics: Conjuration 6 shifts for water mass enough to cover a small park. 4 shift maneuver to apply aspect "Holy". 2 shifts for zone-wide.
Notes: Unleashing several tons of holy water in a zone might have interesting side-effects like washing some people aside but it's hardly damaging. The effect on creatures vulnerable to holy water however is equal to a weapon 10 zone-wide holy attack.

Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Taran on May 11, 2011, 07:26:43 PM

A spell that kills vamps like ants under a magnifying glass, but leaves everything else standing?
Boy, the White Council would have wiped the Red out years ago if something like that existed.


I assume not many wizards on the council do soul-fire which is the only(or my) justification for a spell like this.  

I just assumed that, with thaumaturgy, I could model it after the "sunburst hankercheif" exept add duration and zone.  It specifically says it doesn't harm normal people.

"this does no damage to most targets but satisfies the Catch for a number of supernatural creatures." YS, p. 304

My original question was whether just putting an aspect of "holy sunlight" would cause damage, but I guess it would just allow compels etc.
To do damage, mechanically, I'd have to create a thaumaturgical spell.

@ belial666  You posted as I was typing.  I agree.  How do you come up with the base complexities?  Why is Holy a 4 shift maneuver?  IF I'm doing a sunlight spell as a maneuver, is there any difference whether it's 4 shifts or 8 shifts or is that just more in the story-telling how it might affect creatures?
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: sinker on May 11, 2011, 08:08:10 PM
I think you can definatly increase the duration on attack spell
(click to show/hide)
, the only trouble is that an enemy can step out of a zone of fire making your extra durations useless. Thamaturgy can do everything Evocation can so it could also do solar area bonbardment.

I can see justification thematically and in the fiction, I just can't see justification mechanically, but that's up to interpretation so I can see someone else running it differently.

As for the attack itself I have no problem with soulfire picking and choosing targets under the right circumstances. That's totally within the agenda and purview of that particular sponsor.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Belial666 on May 11, 2011, 08:16:36 PM
It's not picking and choosing targets; it's using an area attack that is harmful to some targets but not to others. Sort of if you were immune to fire and threw a fireball at your feet or you're wearing a gas mask and you use sarin - only you just use sunlight that is mostly harmless except vs vampires and suff.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: ways and means on May 11, 2011, 08:21:03 PM
Oribus is the mixing of an attack and a grapple over a duration and it never says in the raw you cannot extend any magical attack or give any magical attack extra duration. 
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: sinker on May 11, 2011, 08:46:12 PM
It's not picking and choosing targets; it's using an area attack that is harmful to some targets but not to others. Sort of if you were immune to fire and threw a fireball at your feet or you're wearing a gas mask and you use sarin - only you just use sunlight that is mostly harmless except vs vampires and suff.

Yes, this. Agreed.

Oribus is the mixing of an attack and a grapple over a duration and it never says in the raw you cannot extend any magical attack or give any magical attack extra duration. 

Orbius isn't a good example of an attack extended over exchanges and it's not an attack mixed with a grapple. It's a grapple plain and simple. Yes it does deal damage, just as all grapples have the option of dealing one additional stress per exchange. Because it's a grapple all block rules apply to it. A block/grapple lasts till the next exchange an attack does not.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 11, 2011, 09:15:12 PM
I'd allow sunlight attacks with sponsored magic. I'd also let normal wizards purchase the ability to use them, maybe for 1 refresh or maybe as an element.

While I like the idea of an attack with a duration, I have no idea how to model it mechanically. Maybe just reapplying the spell every round would be fair for a zone-wide attack, since the targets can leave the zone. But for a targeted attack I'm pretty sure it's be too powerful.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: paul_Harkonen on May 11, 2011, 09:29:32 PM
I can see justification thematically and in the fiction, I just can't see justification mechanically, but that's up to interpretation so I can see someone else running it differently.

This is the biggest issue with designing spells.  You have to start with how it works thematically then back calculate what it costs and what it is to have the desired effect.  That's why I said that I think the best way is to have it operate mechanically as different spells for different effects (potentially casting multiple times, or operating as thaumaturgy for continuing effects).  To create spells you decide on a thematic effect (Sunlight in this case) then decide on mechanical effects (either light or burning vamps) then decide on the mechanics of casting (either a maneuver or attack resolved as normal).

The mechanics have lots of ways around things, you just have to work them out and be prepared to have something that you think of as an instantaneous reaction take multiple turns in the game.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: ways and means on May 11, 2011, 09:58:18 PM
One way you could do an single effect attack with a duration is setting an opponent on fire and giving a duration for how long they will burn, unless they take action like dunking themselves in water this would be an athletics or block based defence followed if the block or athletics roll failed by an endurance defence.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 11, 2011, 10:09:49 PM
I'm sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say. Could you rephrase that please?
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: ways and means on May 11, 2011, 10:11:29 PM
Duration of attacks can be justified by various means and could use endurance-venomous mechanics to model longer turn damage for a single opponent and area hazards for area attacks. You Incinerate an Opponent and for the duration they roll Endurance vs your power/discipline or you create an area hazard again at your discipline or power. 
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 11, 2011, 10:15:08 PM
Well, there's no question about justification. Lots of ways to do that.

Venomous mechanics sound like a good idea. Not sure if it's balanced, but it doesn't raise any red flags.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Belial666 on May 11, 2011, 11:42:27 PM
It does for me; a continious, relentless attack vs endurance that by the time you get to the antidote will have reduced you to a pile of goo is not good.


Venomous is definitely not just natural poison. It guarantees that you are taken out by a single bite due to unending attacks each exchange and a great deal sooner than most poisons. It works more like an engineered 100% lethal neurotoxin than most anything else.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: ways and means on May 12, 2011, 12:01:09 AM
I wasn't actually proposing unending attack I was proposing attacks with a certain duration. So you cast incinerate on an enemy for a certain degree of power and duration, they then take an attack of the Power of the spell vs Endurance until the duration runs out they find a lot of water or they counter spell it. I had the same idea about area attacks, the first attack is a normal attack but after the first round it is treated as an enivromental hazard (a sea of fire does seem in my mind to fit an enviromental hazard) at the power off the spell (so a +9 power spell would do a +9 attack on anyone in the zone) until it is countered or runs out of duration.  
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Belial666 on May 12, 2011, 12:10:55 AM
Use conjuration to do that. Environmental effects are actually material so you can use conjuration at the speed of evocation (if you got it) to conjure that much of said material and then have an environmental effect naturally follow simply because what you conjured exists.


Want a wall of magma to stop your adversaries? Use conjuration/geomancy to conjure that much magma inside the ground. The rest of the environmental effect follows naturally as the magma bursts through.
Want an avalanche? Conjure that much snow.
Want a rain of acid or a pit of tar? Conjure that much acid or tar.
Want clouds to fill the sky? Conjure that much vapor.


That kind of magic would be really difficult due to the raw mass you'd need to conjure and the area you'd need to cover. Conjuring enough mass to cover a small park is 6 shifts. Add shifts for the number of zones you want if you want to finely control the area of the spell (rather than have the conjured mass spread as it will) and you very quickly get to pretty big magic. A conjured avalanche or stream of magma would be complexity 10. A controlled avalanche or flow of magma can easily be twice as much.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: sinker on May 12, 2011, 12:13:27 AM
I would refer you to Fred's previous comments about damage over time effects. In summary he's said they're boring and rarely important to the narrative. The more I think about it the more I like the maneuver. It's easier, requires less fudge work and really works well to create a great story.

As an example let's work out this one situation both ways. With damage over time effects it works like this: You deal the vampires x stress. Next exchange you deal the vampires x stress. Next exchange you deal the vampires x stress. It's not very great from a story standpoint.

On the other hand the maneuver creates a situation that the GM can create something great with. "The lesser vampires ignite, screaming as they try to dive for cover (taken out lethally) . One of them makes it under a car, his blackened and twisted shape shaking and moaning (taken out non-lethally). The stronger ones become a blur as they find the edges of the brilliant light and hide, smoking in the shadows, waiting for an opportunity to strike (compelled to leave the zone, and/or possibly to deal with an attack of some sort). Some run from the bright light leaving the PCs alone (compelled to concede, accepting consequences, or simply failing at whatever objective they had).

I (and Fred for that matter) simply prefer the story focused method.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 12, 2011, 12:31:41 AM
I disagree, sinker. Damage over time is just as interesting as a single attack to me. There's nothing anti-story about it, as far as I can tell.

By the way, Venomous isn't that horrifying. You can concede to it, and medical attention counteracts it completely.

And conjuring acid/magma/whatever still needs to have some kind of mechanical effect. As-is, the GM is left to ad-lib what that effect might be.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: sinker on May 12, 2011, 12:36:09 AM
I disagree, sinker. Damage over time is just as interesting as a single attack to me. There's nothing anti-story about it, as far as I can tell.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I prefer a maneuver with all sorts of interesting and different outcomes to damage over time effects or attacks. But to each their own.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Taran on May 12, 2011, 01:01:10 AM
By the way, Venomous isn't that horrifying. You can concede to it, and medical attention counteracts it completely.

And conjuring acid/magma/whatever still needs to have some kind of mechanical effect. As-is, the GM is left to ad-lib what that effect might be.

I don't know what Venomous is, but I'll look it up.

As far as conjuring goes, this is kind of the center of the issue for me.  Belial666 had a cool "holy water" spell, but it doesn't mention how much damage Holy water does to things hurt by such things.  I know there are rules for environmental effects and it would be easy enough to say, "hey that Holy sun spell is hot enough that it's like walking through a desert here, let's make a check every 10minutes" (assuming it lasted that long), and maybe you'd use the power of the spell to differentiate between SUPER HOT EQUATOR AT MIDDAY and Sunny Sunshine in the Pleasant Medow Sun; but there's nothing that says how much damage it does to vampires.  And should it?  This is why I thought I might have to a spell that also damages...

So how much damage would the torrent of holy water do to vamps?

EDIT:  Oh yes, it says Weapon 10.  But how?
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: sinker on May 12, 2011, 01:09:04 AM
I believe Belial was going off of the concept that a 12 shift spell will deal 10 stress to a zone, while simultaneously using those 12 shifts in the other method mentioned (4 to make it "holy" and whatever else to conjure the water itself). Not sure about this since you're effectively getting a little bit more bang for your buck in the form of maneuvering and attacking with the same shifts, but since you're using soulfire it should actually be holy all on it's own.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Belial666 on May 12, 2011, 01:27:07 AM
The spell is conjuration plus a maneuver to conjure the holy water. That's how you use the shifts for justification/flavor. Much like a Might 12 spell in order to throw around a 20-ton large truck or bus. But when you use said spells for damage, you look at the spell's total power, which is 12. It is a zone-wide attack so 2 shifts go there. The remaining is the Weapon Rating.

So how the shifts of power translate to damage is identical in both spells. But how they would translate in the nature of the magic used is different. That is why the rain of holy water is harmless rain against most people but totally melts away vampires (it's holy water) while the falling truck attack would totally pancake all kinds of creatures in the zone but also ignore thresholds or magic immunity. (it's a falling, very real 20-ton truck. You can be immune to magic or behind a threshold all you like but you still get pancaked)


So no, the spell itself does not change. It's 12 shifts of power used in a certain way. You just look at those shifts of power from different points of view. It's why the spells end up having wildly different effects in varying situations.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: devonapple on May 12, 2011, 09:39:28 PM
On the other hand the maneuver creates a situation that the GM can create something great with. "The lesser vampires ignite, screaming as they try to dive for cover (taken out lethally) . One of them makes it under a car, his blackened and twisted shape shaking and moaning (taken out non-lethally). The stronger ones become a blur as they find the edges of the brilliant light and hide, smoking in the shadows, waiting for an opportunity to strike (compelled to leave the zone, and/or possibly to deal with an attack of some sort). Some run from the bright light leaving the PCs alone (compelled to concede, accepting consequences, or simply failing at whatever objective they had).

I (and Fred for that matter) simply prefer the story focused method.

I prefer the story method as well, but who is paying for all those Compels? My understanding is that you still get one Invoke/Compel for free, but I remain unsure whether or not a Zone-wide Aspect Maneuver allows the player to Invoke/Compel that Aspect for free against each one of the targets in that Zone.

If it is the GM, then sure, the players can probably make an agreement with the GM that in exchange for paying for those Compels, the GM awards Fate Points to the surviving vampires. Which he does with a free Invoke/Compel - what I'm uncertain about is whether the players get to have the benefit of all those extra Compels.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: sinker on May 16, 2011, 06:53:11 PM
Actually Devonapple, this is another reason why it's important to differentiate between the GMs ability to compel and the players ability to invoke for effect. The player isn't compelling all of those vamps (as the player technically can't compel at all), he's invoking his one aspect for effect once. That invoke however causes the aspect to become narratively important and the GM then decides if he would like to lay down all those compels on the vamps (technically compelling their high concept rather than the scene aspect, as it's usually tough to justify compelling aspects that aren't personal aspects). In my case I would compel the hell out of them because that's a) fun and b) giving the baddies a ton of fate (especially since in this case I'd likely transfer some of it from the mooks to the vamp who lost because his mooks were incinerated).
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Silverblaze on May 16, 2011, 10:02:49 PM
It does for me; a continious, relentless attack vs endurance that by the time you get to the antidote will have reduced you to a pile of goo is not good.


Venomous is definitely not just natural poison. It guarantees that you are taken out by a single bite due to unending attacks each exchange and a great deal sooner than most poisons. It works more like an engineered 100% lethal neurotoxin than most anything else.

My group doesn't even acknowledge the existence of Venomous...too nasty... unless totally from a narative standpoint to capture the group...used very sparingly.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Taran on May 17, 2011, 04:25:44 PM
I think I like it as a maneuver.  I can invoke for effect and the Bads can get FP's.  If I were GMing, I might say that if they take the FP they'd start resisting environmental damage at "x" (I guess it would be dependant on how much power was pumped into the maneuver) unless they they left the zone or the spell duration ran out.

If they turn down the FP, all damage dealt in the zone would still meet the Catch.

Would that be a good way of doing it?
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: devonapple on May 17, 2011, 04:33:11 PM
Actually Devonapple, this is another reason why it's important to differentiate between the GMs ability to compel and the players ability to invoke for effect. The player isn't compelling all of those vamps (as the player technically can't compel at all), he's invoking his one aspect for effect once. That invoke however causes the aspect to become narratively important and the GM then decides if he would like to lay down all those compels on the vamps (technically compelling their high concept rather than the scene aspect, as it's usually tough to justify compelling aspects that aren't personal aspects). In my case I would compel the hell out of them because that's a) fun and b) giving the baddies a ton of fate (especially since in this case I'd likely transfer some of it from the mooks to the vamp who lost because his mooks were incinerated).

So, if I understand correctly, and I may be coming out of the woods on this:

Player A (currently sitting on 15 Fate Points) successfully places a Zonewide Aspect and Invokes for Effect (for free, as is right as the first tag) against the 15 Ghouls in the Zone; the GM takes it over as a Compel, and distributes Fate Points (out of his own supply) to the Ghouls who would plausibly survive/Concede/whatever.

Player B (currently sitting on no Fate Points) successfully places the same Zonewide Aspect, Invokes for Effect (again, for free) against the 15 Ghouls in the Zone; the GM also takes it over as a Compel, and distributes Fate Points (also out of his own supply) to the Ghouls who would plausibly survive/Concede/whatever.

Obviously, both have sadistic GMs (15 Ghouls? Really?). But is there no difference at all in how the situation should be handled for the Player with a hoard of Fate Points versus the Player without?

Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Taran on May 17, 2011, 05:01:56 PM
So, if I understand correctly, and I may be coming out of the woods on this:

Player A (currently sitting on 15 Fate Points) successfully places a Zonewide Aspect and Invokes for Effect (for free, as is right as the first tag) against the 15 Ghouls in the Zone; the GM takes it over as a Compel, and distributes Fate Points (out of his own supply) to the Ghouls who would plausibly survive/Concede/whatever.

Player B (currently sitting on no Fate Points) successfully places the same Zonewide Aspect, Invokes for Effect (again, for free) against the 15 Ghouls in the Zone; the GM also takes it over as a Compel, and distributes Fate Points (also out of his own supply) to the Ghouls who would plausibly survive/Concede/whatever.

Obviously, both have sadistic GMs (15 Ghouls? Really?). But is there no difference at all in how the situation should be handled for the Player with a hoard of Fate Points versus the Player without?



I know this is intended for sinker to answer, but what is the difference whether or not they have fate points?  As I see it, one player uses his the other hordes his.  The advantage for the player with 15 FP's is that if some of the Ghouls refuse the compel, in the next exchange the player can invoke the maneuver again while the player with no FP's can't.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: devonapple on May 17, 2011, 05:09:32 PM
...what is the difference whether or not they have fate points?  As I see it, one player uses his the other hordes his.  The advantage for the player with 15 FP's is that if some of the Ghouls refuse the compel, in the next exchange the player can invoke the maneuver again while the player with no FP's can't.

The difference (for me) is that, per my understanding, one Invoke means one Target, and that any additional Targets require more FP.

I would be *happy* if there were more flexibility for things like this - I'm just not finding it in the RAW.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Taran on May 17, 2011, 05:14:51 PM
The difference (for me) is that, per my understanding, one Invoke means one Target, and that any additional Targets require more FP.

I would be *happy* if there were more flexibility for things like this - I'm just not finding it in the RAW.

Yeah.  That's always been a question for me.  Does an area effect let you invoke everyone in the area, or just one?  I'm assuming that that question has its own thread.  I'm also figuring that it comes down to GM interpretation/narration?

EDIT:  refocus:  Devonapple, how would you do this spell, both as the PC casting it and as the GM adjudicating it?
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: devonapple on May 17, 2011, 05:32:08 PM
EDIT:  refocus:  Devonapple, how would you do this spell, both as the PC casting it and as the GM adjudicating it?

Assuming I'm the stingy bastard I appear to be about Invoke for Effect:

Using Soulfire, then I would have the EvoThaum include the following effects:
x+2 shifts for Zonewide x Damage (special effect Sunlight, which would satisfy certain Catches)
and/or
y*3 shifts to place Sunlight Aspect y times (allowing free-taggable Invokes for Effect on y Vampires)

Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Taran on May 17, 2011, 07:05:33 PM
because this is thaumaturgy at evocation speed, is the duration based on thaumaturgy - so I could get it to last until the next morning, or are you still constrained by the durations of evocation - ie: 1 exchange and can only be extended in terms of exchanges.

Also, by the rules (I was reading the attack spells with duration thread), you can't have spells that do damage over time, so if I put extra shifts for duration, would they only apply to the maneuver and not the damage?
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: devonapple on May 17, 2011, 07:41:35 PM
because this is thaumaturgy at evocation speed, is the duration based on thaumaturgy - so I could get it to last until the next morning, or are you still constrained by the durations of evocation - ie: 1 exchange and can only be extended in terms of exchanges.

I feel that Evocation is the most appropriate duration for the most common uses of EvoThaum, but some effects may be eligible for longer periods of time.

Also, by the rules (I was reading the attack spells with duration thread), you can't have spells that do damage over time, so if I put extra shifts for duration, would they only apply to the maneuver and not the damage?

Just the maneuver.

Thaumaturgy death spells deal their damage all at once, canonically. You may want to check the Curses for a way to get the best of both worlds, though: I'm just not remembering the Luck Curse off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: sinker on May 19, 2011, 05:18:02 AM
My interpretation has to do with two things. Firstly this is based on Fred's statement earlier in your thread on tagging compels. Fred said that the player invokes for effect and then the GM decides how that effect will impact the situation, negotiating and funding any compels that might crop up as a result.

So we've established that we're invoking for effect. All that does is make the aspect important or create an effect that the aspect might reasonably make. It doesn't have a target, it effects anyone that the aspect might reasonably effect. An example in the book is that one could invoke the aspect "Warden Connections" to declare that a warden is currently in town or declare that your character shows up in a scene due to his "Perfect Timing". These are effects that would have more nebulous and greater reaching consequences then one simple effect against one target.

So my reasoning is that one could invoke the "Holy Light" aspect to essentially bring the aspect to the foreground and then it would be the GM's decision as to how that effects the vamps.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Obsid on May 20, 2011, 09:01:38 AM
I might not fully understand the system, but this all seems a bit too complicated (and interesting). Correct me if I make any mistakes here.

First off, I haven't seen much talk about sunlight at all. I have seen lots of talk about Holy Light, as Sinker phrased it, which might be just as good, but not sunlight.

Why does sunlight hurt vampires? Is it inherently holy (religious angle)? Does it have something to do with the myriad of frequencies (scientific angle)? Or is it simply because it is light from the sun, daylight, an antithesis to creatures of the night (mystical angle)?

If it's because it's holy, then I guess Holy Light and Sunlight are the same thing. If it has to do with frequencies then I guess that soulfire could give a normal photomantic spell the correct structure.
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If it's because its light from the sun, then while soulfire can still give you vampire-bane light, it won't actually be sunlight.

I like the third angle. It fits best with the Sunburst in a Handkerchief, the only example of a sunlight spell I've seen. But the other angles don't really clash with the Hanky either. [/color]

If you want to cast an evocation speed thaumaturgy in battle just to kill vampires, go right ahead. It's reliable, but only useful against vampires and the like. It can easily be Holy Light, or even Sunlight depending on which angle you prefer, so it will hurt vampires enough either way. But that requires a lot more specialization (unless I'm mistaken).

The other route is to make a beefed up version of Sunburst in a Handkerchief. I like the idea of Daylight in a Bottle, but that's just me. This means you're casting a thaumaturgic spell at thaumaturgic speed. Though you're releasing it in about as much time as it takes to cast a simple evocation. This has the downsides of being an enchanted item, making it less reliable than creating the light, but it has the upsides of not requiring quite so much specialization. I think someone could do this without Soulfire, though they'll need an ounce or two of true happiness to add to the mix.

Either way you have the effect which everyone has been talking about. The best effect I think would be to add "Holy Light" or "Daylight" to the aspects of the environment. You're not actually attacking the vampires, you're just showing them the light. After that, it's in the GM's hands.

The GM should then deal damage to each vampire on the GM's prerogative. This damage is an environmental issue, it can be viewed as the Environment attacking the Vampire. I think the venomous rules give a good model but removal from the light should be an adequate antidote.

When the Vampire takes damage, it can choose to take a consequence of fleeing, screaming like a little girl, getting extra toasty, or what have you in response to this damage. That's plenty of flavor. Whether it runs to hide under a car depends on the vampire's personality, and is again an issue of the GM, though I wouldn't have many week vampires standing in the sunlight for long.

The issue of duration can be handled, in the first form, the same way extending a shield evocation is. In the second form it can be handled in the crafting of the item. Meaning that while it requires some active input to keep the evoc-thaumaturgy going, the craft thaumaturgy runs itself for a preset duration. Another example of how the evoc thaumaturgy is more reliable (you have more control over it) and the craft thaumaturgy is more convenient.

At least, that makes sense to me. I'm very new to this system, so its possible I'm missing some very important details. If my ideas are any good, I'll leave it to someone else to come up with the dirty details (numbers are messy).[/color]
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Belial666 on May 20, 2011, 09:27:19 AM
There was this guy named Gideon back in the days of old Israel, and wanted light to pursue his enemies. The day was ending and it seemed like his enemies would manage to give him the slip when he prayed and God made the sun stand still in the sky for several hours.

Now, obviously God did not actually make the sun stand still. He could have done so by moving the sun or stopping the Earth's rotation but that would kill just about anyone on the planet and that, I am told, is a bad thing. God probably just bent the rays of the sun as if using a really big prism or mirror and thus threw sunlight down to Gideon's area, making it seem that the sun stood still. (much like the Earth's atmosphere lengthens the duration of the day, only moreso)



Since magic can be used to pull meteors and satellites out of the sky, can it bend/reflect some sunlight so that a couple of zones in the dark hemisphere get it for a few moments? In theory, a manmade space station with a big mirror can do it - what kind of spell power would one need to do the same?
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Obsid on May 20, 2011, 09:54:07 AM
There was this guy named Gideon back in the days of old Israel, and wanted light to pursue his enemies. The day was ending and it seemed like his enemies would manage to give him the slip when he prayed and God made the sun stand still in the sky for several hours.

Now, obviously God did not actually make the sun stand still. He could have done so by moving the sun or stopping the Earth's rotation but that would kill just about anyone on the planet and that, I am told, is a bad thing. God probably just bent the rays of the sun as if using a really big prism or mirror and thus threw sunlight down to Gideon's area, making it seem that the sun stood still. (much like the Earth's atmosphere lengthens the duration of the day, only moreso)



Since magic can be used to pull meteors and satellites out of the sky, can it bend/reflect some sunlight so that a couple of zones in the dark hemisphere get it for a few moments? In theory, a manmade space station with a big mirror can do it - what kind of spell power would one need to do the same?
Here's my take on this...

Sure, magic can be used to pull meteors and satellites out of the sky. It can also be used to stop the earths rotation, move the sun, or blow up the moon. It requires a combination of two things to accomplish such larger-than-life feats though. Calculation, and Power.

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McCoy did indeed pull a satellite out of the sky, but what you have to ask is how. The direct method would be to grab it with an arm of magic energy and slam it where you want it to go. This would require minimal calculation, and a LOT of Power. On the flip side, if you know the forces already acting on the satellite, you should be able to calculate where to strike it with a minimal force push to throw it out of orbit and onto your enemy's head. This would require a LOT of calculation and minimal power. I use the term minimal on a relative scale in both instances.

Another option would be to open a portal that takes the satellite from where it is, and puts it where you want it to be (changing the direction of its velocity would help) I have no idea what sort of calculation or power this would require.

Redirecting sunlight would be a similar issue. Space is really big. Really really big. I don't think I can fit enough 'really's in to convey the range of this sort of spell. To reflect light correctly, you would need to conjure a mirror-like object in space. You would need a fair bit of both power and calculation. (It'd be easier to shoot down a satellite). You would need to sustain these constructs at a rediculous distance as well. Alternatively, you could generate a mini black-hole to bend the light to your will ... but please don't, I like not having black-holes eat the planet.

There's also another issue here. As far as mirrors are concerned, there's already a giant mirror reflecting the sun's light to the earth at night. We call it Moon. Somehow reflected sunlight doesn't have the same effect as direct or preserved sunlight. It could be because it lacks the full color spectrum or because the moon neutralizes the holyness or mystical properties of the sunlight, either way, you'd have to know what you're doing and make a mirror construct that bypassed this weakness.

In other words, unless you have special arrangements, it would be easier to incinerate the Vamps than to bring the light from the sun. And I think it'd be more likely for God to slow the flow or time in Gideon's area. [/color]
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Belial666 on May 20, 2011, 11:03:08 AM
A thousand miles is not that far considering that thaumaturgy has no range considerations at all. And a mirror the size of a park is roughly 8 shifts of power to conjure. So, provided you know what you are doing, redirecting a beam of sunlight with thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation would not need that many shifts.
As for the light of the moon not harming vamps, maybe it's because it is a half dozen orders of magnitude weaker?


Now, slowing the flow of time in a portion of the Earth? Does that mean whatever is inside will move slower? If yes, you just sent the poor guys to space as Earth is moving away at several kilometers per second. Whoops!
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Obsid on May 20, 2011, 11:23:36 AM
Thaumaturgy might not have an explicit range but I would still think that's pushing it. The distance from the earth to the moon is 238,857 miles and in order to reflect sunlight adequately you'll want something similar. Also, even if you could do it with just 1k miles, you'll need a mirror significantly larger than the park, or you'll end up with an extra star in the sky.

"speeding up" or "slowing" time are essentially interchangeable terms. It's all relative after all. So I understand your confusion. But think about it for a minute, if I was referring to an effect that would make people inside a zone move slower, would that make the sun appear to stay still to them?

As for sending people into space... No. Fail. Sorry, there's no other way to put it. Even if an acceleration in the flow of time in an area caused the inhabitants to move more slowly, that sloth would not cause the centrifugal force of the earth's rotation to suddenly surpass the centripetal force of the earth's gravity.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Taran on May 20, 2011, 12:18:35 PM

The GM should then deal damage to each vampire on the GM's prerogative. This damage is an environmental issue, it can be viewed as the Environment attacking the Vampire. I think the venomous rules give a good model but removal from the light should be an adequate antidote.

I asked if *this*
I think I like it as a maneuver.  I can invoke for effect and the Bads can get FP's.  If I were GMing, I might say that if they take the FP they'd start resisting environmental damage at "x" (I guess it would be dependant on how much power was pumped into the maneuver) unless they they left the zone or the spell duration ran out.

If they turn down the FP, all damage dealt in the zone would still meet the Catch.

Would that be a good way of doing it?

was a good way to deal with it.  No-one has said one way or another, but I think you're agreeing with how I would deal with it.

As far as pulling rays of light out of space goes, I want to do this underground if I wanted.  I saw it more like conjuring sunlight, or having god open a portal to Heaven and allow heavenly sunlight radiate out of the ceiling *angelic choir* AHHHHHHH!  *angelic choir*.


Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Belial666 on May 20, 2011, 12:22:59 PM
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Thaumaturgy might not have an explicit range but I would still think that's pushing it.
5 shifts can breach a barrier between worlds and open Gateways for you to travel. Harry does the Chicago-Edinburg trip in half an hour (2 miles) of walking when the real distance is 4000 miles. The Gatekeeper has been to the moon physically (though not on-screen). Summoning spells can bring in beings from beyond the borders of the Universe and a 32-shift botched one has done so on-screen. So in thaumaturgy distance matters not.


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if you could do it with just 1k miles, you'll need a mirror significantly larger than the park, or you'll end up with an extra star in the sky.
Not really. Sunlight produces natural light-beams like searchlights do. A 10 Kw searchlight can illuminate stuff 20 kilometers away, easy. Now consider that the sunlight falling on a small park (say, 80 yards across) would be 100.000 Kw.  ;D Read up on light beams and sunlight beam divergence if you are not convinced.

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"speeding up" or "slowing" time are essentially interchangeable terms. It's all relative after all.
Common misconception not supported by facts. "Slowing" happens when an object's inertial mass (resistance to acceleration, effectively) increases and thus the object accelerates more slowly. The object changes more slowly  but from its point of view the rest of the world seems faster. "Speeding Up" happens when an object's inertial mass decreases. The object accelerates (and thus moves and changes) faster and the rest of the world seems slower by comparison.

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As for sending people into space... No. Fail. Sorry, there's no other way to put it.
The objects' inertial mass would be decreased. Since E=1/2mV2, and the "m" becomes smaller, the objects are suddenly moving a lot faster (which is what we wanted). This includes little things like their own motions and the Earth's rotation. Sadly, it also includes stuff like the Hubble Flow. The Milky Way is moving at 600 Km/second. What happens if the flow of time is doubled for those in your zone and are suddenly moving at 1200 Km/second, which is 600 Km/second more than the Earth? Whoops!
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Obsid on May 20, 2011, 03:40:52 PM
I asked if *this*
was a good way to deal with it.  No-one has said one way or another, but I think you're agreeing with how I would deal with it.

As far as pulling rays of light out of space goes, I want to do this underground if I wanted.  I saw it more like conjuring sunlight, or having god open a portal to Heaven and allow heavenly sunlight radiate out of the ceiling *angelic choir* AHHHHHHH!  *angelic choir*
It works, I think. Well, except the "having god X" bit, that's more of a faith magic. Unless you're getting your soulfire directly from Him instead of an angel, in which case that's a GM call.

5 shifts can breach a barrier between worlds and open Gateways for you to travel. Harry does the Chicago-Edinburg trip in half an hour (2 miles) of walking when the real distance is 4000 miles. The Gatekeeper has been to the moon physically (though not on-screen). Summoning spells can bring in beings from beyond the borders of the Universe and a 32-shift botched one has done so on-screen. So in thaumaturgy distance matters not.
Yes, portals make things very convenient. If you're using them then I can't think of any problems with range.
Not really. Sunlight produces natural light-beams like searchlights do. A 10 Kw searchlight can illuminate stuff 20 kilometers away, easy. Now consider that the sunlight falling on a small park (say, 80 yards across) would be 100.000 Kw.  ;D Read up on light beams and sunlight beam divergence if you are not convinced.
I'll pass on the extra research. I'm not in a physics research phase at the moment. I still think that the same reason objects appear smaller from a distance would cause the light to appear smaller by the time it reaches the park, but if you're convinced that there's a reason it wouldn't I won't argue.
Common misconception not supported by facts. "Slowing" happens when an object's inertial mass (resistance to acceleration, effectively) increases and thus the object accelerates more slowly. The object changes more slowly  but from its point of view the rest of the world seems faster. "Speeding Up" happens when an object's inertial mass decreases. The object accelerates (and thus moves and changes) faster and the rest of the world seems slower by comparison.
Very nice scientific jargen, it's pretty, and it happies me. Unfortunately we're not talking strictly science here. I can say that time "slows" when I am slowed, because, relative to my surroundings, time has slowed for me. I can also say that time slows when I am accelerated, because relative to me, my surroundings have slowed. In fact, when I am slowed, it may actually be the case that time, for the rest of the universe, has sped up. Or in the latter instance, I may be right and the universe's time has slowed. Okham might say it's more likely that it's just me that's slowed, but probability and reality aren't always the same.I can again say that time has sped up when I am sped up, or when my surroundings have sped up using the same logic.

Now, there may be scientific imperatives on how to use those terms, but scientific definitions do not inherently overrule other definitions. The tradition of language predates the tradition of science, and it is by the tradition of language, not the tradition of science, in which words get their meanings. No matter how inconvenient it is for us.
The objects' inertial mass would be decreased. Since E=1/2mV2, and the "m" becomes smaller, the objects are suddenly moving a lot faster (which is what we wanted). This includes little things like their own motions and the Earth's rotation. Sadly, it also includes stuff like the Hubble Flow. The Milky Way is moving at 600 Km/second. What happens if the flow of time is doubled for those in your zone and are suddenly moving at 1200 Km/second, which is 600 Km/second more than the Earth? Whoops!

I get what you're saying.

A force moves Gideon at 600 km/s.
Gideon starts experiencing time at twice normal.
So for every second relative to the earth, Gideon is pushed 1200km.
600 km/s x 2sg/1sn
Except that it is the Earth which applies this force to Gideon.
Which means that Gideon is experience a force that would push him at 600 km/sn and since 2sg = 1sn, then the speed the force would push him at is 600km/2sg or 300km/sg
You're smart enough to know what I'm saying.

Obviously that's simplified since I expressed forces in terms of km/s, a measure of speed, instead of the proper nm/s2, but again, I'm not in a physics research phase right now. Even if you fill in the missing factors the math is consistent.

Of course there are a lot of other problems with dealing with a zone of enhanced time. Good thing we're dealing with magic and miracles instead of natural phenomena eh? Let God work out the messy details when he's performing miracles.

That's enough of a tangent for me Belial. You're fun but this isn't a thread about space-time. If you have a further rebuttal on this feel free to PM me.
Title: Re: Sunlight spell
Post by: Taran on May 20, 2011, 04:02:47 PM
O.k...

so, would it be extra shifts of complexity to get the Angelic Choir Sound Effect, or do you think that just comes with the package?

J/K