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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: zcthu3 on May 09, 2011, 09:01:41 AM

Title: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: zcthu3 on May 09, 2011, 09:01:41 AM
Hi all,

I'm due to restart my Dresden Files game in the next month of so and, due to some weird events that I'm not going to go into, the PCs have travelled back in time to learn from the original Merlin - or maybe  one of them is the original Merlin - they've yet to determine which way I'm going to go...

Anyway, I was thinking about things the other day and it suddenly occurred to me that, being back in time, it is also quite possible that the PCs may be around for the creation of the Black Staff (or maybe they create it - this is just the kind of thing that would occur to my players so I'm trying to be pre-emptive).

Anyway, how do I stat out the Black Staff? Obviously it is an Item of Power and should be tied to an Aspect, but what exactly are its powers? It seems to absorb Law Breaker stunts on behalf of its wielder, but how do I represent this mechanically?

I was thinking it could be modelled by giving the PCs the option of purchasing Law Breaker stunts when breaking the Laws in order to gain the benefits thereof; they would spend the Refresh as normal (but with the discount for Item of Power) but wouldn't suffer the negative side effects (i.e. Forced Aspect Changes, although they would need to have an Aspect tying them to the Staff) but would only be able to access the stunts while wielding the staff.

Thoughts? 

Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: Belial666 on May 09, 2011, 11:16:03 AM
The Blackstaff [-1]
An unadorned, six-foot staff of some black material with shadowy tentacles occasionally lashing out from the depths of its physical form.
It Is What It Is: a 6-foot staff that is cold to the touch and heavier than usual. Weapon 3 if used as 2-handed weapon by a skilled attacker. Otherwise weapon 2.
Darker Purpose: The Blackstaff has its own purpose. Using it requires a pact with the dark entity that acts through it. The pact can take many forms but is usually limited to employing the staff as a source of power (see below). Nobody is sure what the staff's purpose actually is - though most suspect it is something dark.
One-time Discount: +2 for obvious Item of Power
Unbreakable: The Blackstaff is a major item of power. It can be destroyed only via a major ritual that perverts its purpose.
Stygian Arcana: To those with access to both evocation and either thaumaturgy or another full source of magic, the Blackstaff can act as an additional source of power, providing its own form of Sponsored Magic. In Evocation, it has no element of its own but can only supercharge spells that break the Laws. Since supercharging uses the sponsored magic to fuel the spell and not the wielder's own power, the wielder gets no Lawbreaker. In Thaumaturgy, it can similarly be used to power Lawbreaking rituals. The Blackstaff also gives +1 power and +1 control to Lawbreaking spells and allows Lawbreaking magic at the speed of evocation.
Wizard's Focus: The wielder of the blackstaff can enchant it to serve him as a focus using his own focus slots. If he does so, the Blackstaff gives him an additional +2 focus slots and unlike most foci can hold a total of 8 focus slots (as if originally created by someone with Legendary Lore)



Creating the Blackstaff:
A sufficiently learned spellcaster could craft minor IoPs like Hexenwolf belts. While the Blackstaff is cheaper refresh-wise, it is a major IoP. In order to craft something like that, an artificer would need at least legendary effective Lore. In addition, some permanent source of power must be used; a major ritual transplanting the power of a Leyline into the item or permanently binding a Demon Lord to it is definitely required. Then another major ritual to make the Blackstaff permanently indestructible except against equally big rituals that would pervert its purpose.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: zcthu3 on May 09, 2011, 07:17:00 PM
Nice writeup. I had thought of a Sponsered Magic sort of deal, but I never really got that sort of vibe for the Black Staff.

I always got the impression from Dresden that it is an inherent corruption of what the White Council "stands for". The White Council specifically created a way around the Laws that they are meant to enforce. Making it a deal with a demonic entity seems to... I don't know, cheapen?... the wrongness of what they've done. Making it a sponsored magic seems to take some of the responsibility off the Council because they're borrowing the power, rather then using their own.

Also, -1 for the Black Staff seems incrediably cheap!

Still, food for thought, thanks.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: Belial666 on May 09, 2011, 10:18:22 PM
Considering the comments on it from Blackstaff McCoy, it is almost certain a deal is involved - and it is a really dark one.


As for its cheapness, something does not need to have a high-refresh cost to be effective - or very costly. The Blackstaff's cost and power does not come from refresh but from the wielder having to follow the item's purpose much like a Knight of the Cross has to serve a specific mission regardless of his own desires because he is a bearer of the swords. In addition, the Blackstaff has an extra storypower cost if the wielder uses it as a power source directly, beyond merely supercharding his spells, and thus accruing sponsor debt he then has to pay off with compels.

In the end, while a tremendous bonus under some circumstances, the Blackstaff is only as dangerous as its wielder and has little power to act on its own. Much like a Sword of the Cross at the hands of a great Knight can threaten Nicodemus and slay Greater Dragons while at the hands of an untrained false-believer it is not enough to fight off a crippled man with a lead pipe.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on May 09, 2011, 10:30:47 PM
Here's how I would do it:

The Blackstaff [-8]
It Is What It Is: It's a staff.  Weapon 2 (equivalent to baseball bat).
One-Time Discount: +2 (already applied so if the character has another item of power the Refresh cost is -9)
Unbreakable: It can only be destroyed via a major (currently unknown) ritual.  
Eats Black Magic: The Blackstaff absorbs the sins and corruption caused by breaking the Laws of magic.  Casters can break the laws without taking the Lawbreaker stunt or changing their aspects (although their aspects should reflect that they possess the Blackstaff).  
The Price: The Blackstaff is a dangerous tool.  The caster takes double the stress when using it for casting (but the extra stress may be taken as either mental or physical).  Fallout is also doubled.  Finally, consequences taken from this last one step longer than usual (mild last for as long as a moderate consequence, etc).
Lawbreaking Specialization: The wielder gains +3 to both control and power when using the blackstaff for Lawbreaking evocation and +3 control for Lawbreaking thaumaturgy.  This stacks with other specializations and focus items.
Wizard's Focus: The wielder of the blackstaff can enchant it to serve him as a focus using his own focus slots. If he does so, the Blackstaff gives him an additional +2 focus slots and unlike most foci can hold a total of 8 focus slots (as if originally created by someone with Legendary Lore).

Design Notes: I gave it the cost of taking Lawbreaker once for each law (-7) and Refinement once (-1) for the additional item slots.  I realize that it has the bonus of -2 lawbreaker and some aspect changes, but if figure the double mental stress offsets this.  I then gave it additional point cost (-2) for not changing aspects.  This came to a total cost of 10 Refresh.  Finally, I gave the IoP discount (+2).
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: MijRai on May 09, 2011, 11:40:06 PM
Quote from: InFerrumVeritas on May 09, 2011, 10:30:47 PM
Here's how I would do it:

The Blackstaff [-8]
It Is What It Is: It's a staff.  Weapon 2 (equivalent to baseball bat).
One-Time Discount: +2 (already applied so if the character has another item of power the Refresh cost is -9)
Unbreakable: It can only be destroyed via a major (currently unknown) ritual.  
Eats Black Magic: The Blackstaff absorbs the sins and corruption caused by breaking the Laws of magic.  Casters can break the laws without taking the Lawbreaker stunt or changing their aspects (although their aspects should reflect that they possess the Blackstaff).  
The Price: The Blackstaff is a dangerous tool.  The caster takes double the stress when using it for casting (but the extra stress may be taken as either mental or physical).  Fallout is also doubled.  Finally, consequences taken from this last one step longer than usual (mild last for as long as a moderate consequence, etc).
Lawbreaking Specialization: The wielder gains +3 to both control and power when using the blackstaff for Lawbreaking evocation and +3 control for Lawbreaking thaumaturgy.  This stacks with other specializations and focus items.
Wizard's Focus: The wielder of the blackstaff can enchant it to serve him as a focus using his own focus slots. If he does so, the Blackstaff gives him an additional +2 focus slots and unlike most foci can hold a total of 8 focus slots (as if originally created by someone with Legendary Lore).

Design Notes: I gave it the cost of taking Lawbreaker once for each law (-7) and Refinement once (-1) for the additional item slots.  I realize that it has the bonus of -2 lawbreaker and some aspect changes, but if figure the double mental stress offsets this.  I then gave it additional point cost (-2) for not changing aspects.  This came to a total cost of 10 Refresh.  Finally, I gave the IoP discount (+2).
[/quote

I like the extra stress cost. That really makes it click to me.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: sinker on May 10, 2011, 02:31:21 AM
Quote from: InFerrumVeritas on May 09, 2011, 10:30:47 PM
The Price: The Blackstaff is a dangerous tool.  The caster takes double the stress when using it for casting (but the extra stress may be taken as either mental or physical).  Fallout is also doubled.  Finally, consequences taken from this last one step longer than usual (mild last for as long as a moderate consequence, etc).

I don't really like this, mostly because it has no backing in the fiction. I totally get an attempt to balance the item, however I would think a refresh cost of 7 works just fine without tacking on an odd disadvantage with no real context.

I like Belial's version, but would increase the cost, based simply on what it seems to cost to me. +2 IoP bonus, -2 sponsored magic (with evocation and thaumaturgy refund), -2 for refinements (one for the lawbreaking bonus to control and power, one for the focus item slots). Seems to me that the purpose of the item is already included in the sponsored magic setup.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: Belial666 on May 10, 2011, 02:41:58 AM
Not only the purpose of the item (avoiding lawbreaking) is included in Sponsored Magic but the numerical bonuses are as well; if you look at Kemmlerian Necromancy (which I used for modeling the powers of the staff), it has +1 bonuses AND you can use your necromancy control as your evocation control.


So, the cost is -2 sponsored magic, -1 for the focus bonus, +2 item rebate. The story cost of the pact/purpose and sponsor debt is what really makes the blackstaff costly. This fits the usual mondus operandi of the dark powers who are easy to access to and always willing to help (low refresh cost) but highly corruptive of your free will (compels, debts, pacts) even if you don't get lawbreakers.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: MijRai on May 10, 2011, 02:46:44 AM
Quote from: sinker on May 10, 2011, 02:31:21 AM
I don't really like this, mostly because it has no backing in the fiction.

Have you read the latest book? In Changes,
(click to show/hide)
Now, I will say that the increased consequence recovery doesn't have any backing, you are right. But from what we see of the staff, it is quite likely to induce more stress or create more fallout to try and get more death in the world.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: Belial666 on May 10, 2011, 02:51:12 AM
Couldn't that be through sponsor debt in some form?
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: Silverblaze on May 10, 2011, 04:03:48 AM
Quote from: Belial666 on May 10, 2011, 02:51:12 AM
Couldn't that be through sponsor debt in some form?

I think so. 

I don't believe one line in Changes is enough to warrant the disadvantage in the other write up.  Until we know more, we'll have to assume hte staff is simply overpowered and move on.  Fiction doesn;'t have to be balanced or be backed up by the RPG it preceded.  Statting something overpowered from a novel will result in an overpowered OP.  Fact of life I figure.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: zcthu3 on May 10, 2011, 05:57:29 AM
Thanks all for the ideas. Belial666 can you refresh my memory on what McCoy said about the staff? It's been a while since I read the novels and it might be useful in deciding how I want to do this.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: sinker on May 10, 2011, 07:17:49 AM
Quote from: Belial666 on May 10, 2011, 02:41:58 AM
Not only the purpose of the item (avoiding lawbreaking) is included in Sponsored Magic but the numerical bonuses are as well; if you look at Kemmlerian Necromancy (which I used for modeling the powers of the staff), it has +1 bonuses AND you can use your necromancy control as your evocation control.

That might be an attempt to balance what seems to be a very narrow field of specialization when compared to say, summer magic, but at the very least I get what you're saying. Makes sense to me.

Quote from: MijRai on May 10, 2011, 02:46:44 AM
Have you read the latest book? In Changes,
(click to show/hide)
Now, I will say that the increased consequence recovery doesn't have any backing, you are right. But from what we see of the staff, it is quite likely to induce more stress or create more fallout to try and get more death in the world.

And yet he seems no more limited in the number of spells that he is capable of casting than anyone else, which would be the effect of the aforementioned disadvantage. If you want to do something to represent this concept (other than the sponsor debt suggestion, which I like) then I'd go with some sort of additional physical stress or automatic backlash to represent the physical drain it seems to have. Or even better automatically increase the power so that backlash is likely/definite, that has a kinda double-edged sword style that I like.

I will admit though that that particular occurrence isn't something I remembered. Must have glossed over it.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on May 10, 2011, 01:42:25 PM
Quote from: sinker on May 10, 2011, 07:17:49 AM
That might be an attempt to balance what seems to be a very narrow field of specialization when compared to say, summer magic, but at the very least I get what you're saying. Makes sense to me.

And yet he seems no more limited in the number of spells that he is capable of casting than anyone else, which would be the effect of the aforementioned disadvantage. If you want to do something to represent this concept (other than the sponsor debt suggestion, which I like) then I'd go with some sort of additional physical stress or automatic backlash to represent the physical drain it seems to have. Or even better automatically increase the power so that backlash is likely/definite, that has a kinda double-edged sword style that I like.

I will admit though that that particular occurrence isn't something I remembered. Must have glossed over it.

It could be that he's an incredibly powerful wizard on the senior council and has some way of casting more spells than a normal wizard could...
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: Kommisar on May 10, 2011, 02:43:57 PM
I don't have the stats I used handy; but I set up the Black Staff as a bound Outsider.  It allows for the holder to avoid Lawbreaker status by the wielder feeding the part of his soul that is tainted by the use of darker magic to the Outsider as payment for the bonuses to the casting.  Essentially, Sponsored Magic with the price/debt being a chunk of your soul.  The black veins, in my version, was a physical manifestation of the payment/feeding after use which is modeled by taking Stress; pick your track.  Even social.  One stress for every spell cast in which the Staff was used at the end of the scene.  For every Stress "fed" to the Staff, you can remove one Lawbreaker level.  This can go right into Consequences; in which case any consequences taken are flavored by the Staff.  Oh, and be careful getting down to an Extreme Consequence or, worse, Taken Out.

It also requires one to have the Aspect "Black Staff" (or some variation) which can be compelled left, right and center to bust out the staff to make the character's life so much easier.  Any Fate points spent to invoke this aspect goes to the Staff.

It also gave some refinement bonuses to casting and all that, of course.  The big thing is that the staff WILL collect payment at the end of the scene in which it is used.  So, using it in a fight can be a real gamble.  Plus, those compels on use are going to come down hard and fast when you are already down and hurting.  The Outsider bound inside the staff wants to consume you; period.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: Belial666 on May 10, 2011, 02:57:44 PM
Or it wants you to use your considerable skills and the license you got to violate the Laws of Magic to further its own cause.  It's not every day that an Outsider (if you go that route) finds a senior-council-level wizard willing to tap into the power/knowledge from beyond the Gates that more or less has the backing of the White Council and is not going to be hunted down if he makes use of said power.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: tymire on May 10, 2011, 06:11:30 PM
Well think you guys are forgetting the comments that Jim made about the staff.  Namely the fact that WC didn't create it and that who/what/where they got (or stole) it from REALLY wants it back.

Imo it should be something new and not considered something like sponsored magic.  Am also thinking it could be REALLY bad if it was overused and those black "veins" made it to the heart or brain.   Maybe treat it something like a hunger track where every law you break you have to make a check on not to be taken over or something.  That would put a time limit on it’s use and make where you wouldn’t want to use it all the time, well besides the fact it seems a bit on the evil side.  It’s completely unknown at this stage so it’s probably best just to make something up that sounds cool and works in your story.

(but by the same token I don't believe that sponsored magic lets you avoid law breaker as you are providing the will, if not the power)
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: zcthu3 on May 10, 2011, 07:06:18 PM
Quote from: tymire on May 10, 2011, 06:11:30 PM

Imo it should be something new and not considered something like sponsored magic.  Am also thinking it could be REALLY bad if it was overused and those black "veins" made it to the heart or brain.   Maybe treat it something like a hunger track where every law you break you have to make a check on not to be taken over or something.  That would put a time limit on it’s use and make where you wouldn’t want to use it all the time, well besides the fact it seems a bit on the evil side.  It’s completely unknown at this stage so it’s probably best just to make something up that sounds cool and works in your story.

That's cool... I like the idea of a hunger track for the Staff.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: Kommisar on May 10, 2011, 07:17:26 PM
In my version, I never did say who made it or went into the history of it.   ;D

My version also does not allow one to bypass Lawbreaker status through use of Sponsored Magic.  Instead, it consumes the part of your soul that is tainted by being a Lawbreaker.  Oh, it will consume more than that given the opportunity!  But, that is the mechanism by which the user can "cleanse" (I use that work loosely) of his Lawbreaker status.  Which, I might add, is something I made up, sounds cool and worked in my story.  ;)

I considered using a hunger track; but IMHO, having it eat at your stresses after use and laying down compels just seemed more evil for me.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: tymire on May 10, 2011, 07:39:07 PM
Now if just going on opinion, I think that it's actually a living piece of a old god if not an outsider.  Ofcourse if it was a god it would have had to bound up somewhere with a possiblity of escape just to make things interesting....  Actually now that I think of it, it could be one of those old "things" that the group that Thomas belongs to is trying to keep from ever returning.  

Hmm maybe a pinkie...  ;D

And really it depends what the consequences of failure of the "hunger" track would be...  You could easily make it where no one in thier right mind would want to use it.  On the mild side it could be like what happened to the reptile from "Goblins" (goblinscomic.com) in last couple comics.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on May 10, 2011, 07:55:45 PM
Quote from: zcthu3 on May 10, 2011, 07:06:18 PM
That's cool... I like the idea of a hunger track for the Staff.

Agreed.  I'll try statting it up that way too.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on May 11, 2011, 02:13:37 PM
So, if we use the hunger track, what feeds it?  That is, what recovers the stress?  Breaking the Law?  That seems too easy.  Breaking the Law without it absorbing it?  Now that might work.  I sort of like the idea of a Blackstaff that is falling to the corruption of black magic while the high council gives him carte blanche.

In that case:

Blackstaff [-8]
Must: Have Blackstaff related aspect.
Item of Power Discount+2
Feeding Dependency (Lawbreaker)+1
Lawbreaker (all 7 Laws one time, treated individually for Feeding Dependency)-7
Refinement (Focus Items)-1
Eats Your Sins-3

Eats Your Sins: Black Magic is absorbed by the Blackstaff.  Thus, you start any scene as if you haven't broken a law of magic.  Once you do, you then have access to the applicable Lawbreaker stunt.  The bonus for these stunts is calculated by the number of times you've broken the Law per scene.  So if you've only broken the Law 1-3 times +1 bonus.  If you've broken 3 or more Laws+2 bonus.  If you've broken a Law 4+ times +2 bonus.  If you've broken a Law 4+ times and 3 or more Laws in a scene +3 bonus.  I think this justifies a -3 refresh cost.

Feeding Dependency: Black Magic.  If you fail your feeding failure roll and lose access to your powers, you may opt out of scenes (spent meditating away from the Blackstaff and recovering from the stress) at the rate of one point per scene.  You may regain all of your lost abilities by breaking one of the Laws of magic without the staff absorbing it (thus taking the Lawbreaker stunt and changing one of your aspects to reflect it).  If you do so, you are treated as beginning a scene having broken a Law (and thus start with a +1 bonus when wielding the staff which increases to +1 when you break the same Law, etc).
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: Samael on May 11, 2011, 02:56:55 PM
I'm going to be honest, I don't like your build of the black staff. It's far to expensive In my mind,and way your handling the corruption of the user just strikes me the wrong way, I mean the idea is that it protects the wielder from the corruption of the soul, at a cost of physical stress (the black ooze lines up the arm). The corruption happening /anyway/ to me defeats the purpose IMO.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: My Dark Sunshine on May 11, 2011, 03:51:19 PM
I'd given some thought into The Blackstaff a while back, trying to work out a reasonably priced, but still balanced (at least, as much as possible) item of power. In all honesty, I didn't get very far. The sponsored magic idea is neat. It makes sense from hints throughout the RPG books about the item in question. However I'm of the opinion that using sponsored magic to kill, whilst not doing so in the service of your sponsor, still counts as lawbreaking. Although I can see how any lawbreaking could be considered 'in the service of the staff', if that is its nature/wish. Other variants of the item usually seem more expensive than I'd been looking for.

The closest and IMO fairest solution I came up with, is this:

Quote
The Blackstaff [-3]
Description: You own The Blackstaff; that dark length of gnarled, spellcrafted, wood that seems to prevent it’s user's soul from being tainted by violating the laws of magic.
Musts: You must have an aspect related to owning The Blackstaff.
Skills Affected: Discipline, others.
Effects:
Absorbs the 'Sins' of a Broken Law. Something about the Blackstaff allows it’s wielder to break the laws of magic without being tainted. At the cost of a fate point the user may, for the rest of the scene, violate the laws of magic without being required to take, or advance, the Lawbreaker powers. The user still retains the benefits of the power if they posses it, however The Blackstaff prevents the user from sliding further into darkness.
The Laws are Meant to be Broken. Not only does the Blackstaff allow users to break the laws of magic, it seems to revel in doing so. When utilising The Blackstaff, the wielder gains a +1 bonus to both power and control when casting a spell that violates one of the seven laws of magic.
It’s Own Agenda. The Blackstaff possesses at least semi-sentience – although rumours claim it is anything from a familiar, to a bound up outsider – and has it’s own agenda, and its own purposes. Whilst this effect is not a power, the GM should remember to compel the owner of the item accordingly - and to be inventive in what miseries they inflict.
It’s a Staff. The Blackstaff is exactly that, a dark length of gnarled, spellcrafted wood that is in the form of a staff.
Unbreakable. As an item of power it cannot be broken. If a way to do so does exist, it is unknown to anyone; and finding out could possibly be a violation of the seventh law.
Discount Already Applied. As an obvious item of power the staff already includes the one-time discount of +2. This means that if the character possesses more than one item of power, the one-time discount will not apply on that second item. If The Blackstaff is the second or subsequent artefact the character gains, the base refresh cost is -5.


Yes, the item is based heavily off the Swords of the Cross. However they're the closest thing, in my opinion, both within the rulebook and within the book series we have seen to The Blackstaff in terms of power. To a new PC Wizard the cost (-3) is still fairly heavy, (a lenient reading might suggest the item as -2, which would be lighter) however to a Wizard like its current owner? Probably not so much. The ability to ignore the Lawbreaker powers could at some tables be as useful as ignoring Toughness powers, depending on the groups 'feel' for Lawbreaking and its occurrence/consequences, hence basing the power off 'All Creatures are Equal Before God'. Fate point usage makes sense, as so far in the series (IRC) it has only been used in dire circumstances. The more you use it, the more fate points you hand over - the less able you are to resist it should be try and wield you.

Although, I'm not even sure on the semi-sentience possibility. I don't believe I got that from the books, but from external research and speculation on the subject. At my table I might feel inclined to remove such concepts from the staff, or keep them, depending on how I felt at the time. The cost would probably have to be adjusted slightly.

Just thought I'd add my own ideas to the mix, I really hope someone can come up with an awesome write-up of The Staff.

Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on May 11, 2011, 05:32:43 PM
Quote from: Samael on May 11, 2011, 02:56:55 PM
I'm going to be honest, I don't like your build of the black staff. It's far to expensive In my mind,and way your handling the corruption of the user just strikes me the wrong way, I mean the idea is that it protects the wielder from the corruption of the soul, at a cost of physical stress (the black ooze lines up the arm). The corruption happening /anyway/ to me defeats the purpose IMO.


I like my other build better.  I think it should be pricey if it grants access to the Lawbreaker powers, If not, then it's less of an issue. 
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: Samael on May 11, 2011, 06:01:57 PM
I think your looking at it wrong, the blackstaff is not just something *any* joeshmoe can take, there is only one of them and it belongs to the council. So unless your character has a dang good reason to justify why he possesses you reallly don't have to worry about it. Cost should not be used to prohibit PCs from using IoPs and if that is what your aiming for you may as well call it a plot device and leave it at that.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: SunlessNick on May 11, 2011, 06:35:59 PM
Quote
So, if we use the hunger track, what feeds it?  That is, what recovers the stress?  Breaking the Law?  That seems too easy.  -  InFerrumVeritas
Making someone else do it?  That puts McCoy in a dangerous position as a mentor (and elevates him some, seeing as he seems to have been a good one).  Or maybe it's more like a spiritual stress track and needs cleansing rather than sating.
Quote
Namely the fact that WC didn't create it and that who/what/where they got (or stole) it from REALLY wants it back.  -  tymire
Ooh, that's interesting.  Does that mean it's not specifically about magic in how it works?  Would that imply that it could protect against crossing other spiritual lines (could a White Court Virgin or Red court Infected make a first kill without turning - could a changeling "choose without choosing" so long as they carry it)?


'K my take:  The Blackstaff is a fragment of power from a greater entity, the one that the sineaters of folklore drew upon (which might make it an aspect of God or "God") - as might be expected, when attuned to a user, it eats the sins of their Lawbreaking magic - it's not a dark power, rather it's a light one that's perhaps used too lightly (in a different connotation of the word).  "Attunement" however requires that carrying the Blackstaff become part of the identity of its wielder - so they have to replace or rewrite an Aspect to include it.  Once they do, it protects from three Lawbreaks per scene - the good as well as the bad, you're unaffected or you're not - more Lawbreaks in a scene than that can take hold, although if they don't add up into an Aspect change, they can be recovered from as mild consequences.

Item of Power.  Discount +2, it's a staff and can be used as such (including as a focus item, and slots can be applied to it to protect against additional Lawbreaks as the wizard becomes more familiar with it), it's unbreakable.  For the sineating, I coppied InFerrumVeritas, and made it -3; I also added a -1 Refinement cost (part of the attunement and rewriting of an Aspect involves changing a wizard's habitual and trained way of working).  Final cost -2.

If the wrong wizard tries to attune to it and pushes their Refresh below zero, they get drunk on the new freedom and start using black magic willy-nilly - they might not corrupted in the usual sense, but they go off reservation just as hard.  Those who tend to run close to their refresh limits - mention no one who might happen to share his initials with Hugh Dillings the accountant - should take care.


Incidentally, how does Rashid the gatekeeper get around breaking the sixth and seventh laws?  I mean I know he has permission, but what about the metaphysical consequences?
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: admiralducksauce on May 11, 2011, 08:00:37 PM
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Incidentally, how does Rashid the gatekeeper get around breaking the sixth and seventh laws?  I mean I know he has permission, but what about the metaphysical consequences?

I'd say he DOESN'T get around the metaphysical consequences.  Rashid's the Gatekeeper.  He's a slave to that nature, isn't he?  Tasked (or doomed?) to safeguard the Outer Gates and time itself.  I daresay he's got a lot of Lawbreakers for those.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 11, 2011, 09:10:32 PM
Wait, when does Rashid break the Laws?
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: Belial666 on May 11, 2011, 10:00:30 PM
He knows quite a lot abot the Outer Gates and outsiders, even specific spells to use against them and what wards to check in order to get warning of their arrival. Since even knowledge of the Outer Gates and outsiders is against the Law, that's 7th law violations right there.

In addition, Rashid can tell the future. Not only does he get premonitions about it but he has shown the ability to predict the whole mess during Proven Guilty down to the totally unexpected arrival of several Senior Council members and Michael with enough precision to withold his vote and control the trial's outcome through said future information. He has also shown the ability to see the future of a person with precision enough to know whether Dresden could succeed or not during the whole Turn Coat debacle, including calculating the outcome of changing circumstances after warning Dresden of his impeding failure. That's both outright knowledge of the future and using knowledge of the future. 6th law violation right there.



So, Lawbreakers 6th and 7th. This does not mean the guy is a slave to his nature or totally twisted by the magic he uses; he might be tempted but just like any other wizard with positive refresh, he has free will. Just like Dresden, despite being a pretty serious 1st Lawbreaker.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: Sanctaphrax on May 11, 2011, 10:13:32 PM
I was under the impression that all wizards learned to see the future as they aged. And that it wasn't against the Laws.

Anyway, Law Seven prohibits seeking knowledge or power from beyond the gates. Knowledge about how to fight Outsiders may or may not qualify. And it might be okay to know things as long as you don't seek out that knowledge.

So this seems less than certain, to me.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: evileeyore on May 12, 2011, 01:52:42 PM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on May 11, 2011, 10:13:32 PM
I was under the impression that all wizards learned to see the future as they aged. And that it wasn't against the Laws.

Anyway, Law Seven prohibits seeking knowledge or power from beyond the gates. Knowledge about how to fight Outsiders may or may not qualify. And it might be okay to know things as long as you don't seek out that knowledge.

So this seems less than certain, to me.

I think the optimal words are "from beyond the Gates".  So learning of the Gates, how to tell how open they are, and recognize things that slip through would be knowledge from this side of the Gates.


Learning the names and plans of those still on the other side, etc... that's from "beyond the gates".
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: Tedronai on May 13, 2011, 09:59:04 PM
Quote from: Belial666 on May 11, 2011, 10:00:30 PM
He knows quite a lot abot the Outer Gates and outsiders, even specific spells to use against them and what wards to check in order to get warning of their arrival. Since even knowledge of the Outer Gates and outsiders is against the Law, that's 7th law violations right there.

In addition, Rashid can tell the future. Not only does he get premonitions about it but he has shown the ability to predict the whole mess during Proven Guilty down to the totally unexpected arrival of several Senior Council members and Michael with enough precision to withold his vote and control the trial's outcome through said future information. He has also shown the ability to see the future of a person with precision enough to know whether Dresden could succeed or not during the whole Turn Coat debacle, including calculating the outcome of changing circumstances after warning Dresden of his impeding failure. That's both outright knowledge of the future and using knowledge of the future. 6th law violation right there.



So, Lawbreakers 6th and 7th. This does not mean the guy is a slave to his nature or totally twisted by the magic he uses; he might be tempted but just like any other wizard with positive refresh, he has free will. Just like Dresden, despite being a pretty serious 1st Lawbreaker.


Simply POSSESSING knowledge of the Outer Gates is not, and could not, be against a (reasonably) commonly known Law, as merely knowing of the Law, then, would violate that same Law.
Even possessing knowledge from BEYOND the Outer Gates is not in itself a violation of the (metaphysical incarnation of the) Law (though it'll likely be enough to get you sentenced by the Council).  The Law prohibits SEEKING knowledge (and Power) from beyond the Outer Gates.

Interpretations of what constitutes a violation of the 6th Law are even less clear, and definitive statements such as those made above should be qualified as being applicable to a particular 'table' or group.
Title: Re: The Black Staff (the Item not the Person)
Post by: SunlessNick on May 15, 2011, 01:03:03 AM
Pulling something out of my previous post, because it's not really related to statting the staff, or to wizards.  This struck me:
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Namely the fact that WC didn't create it and that who/what/where they got (or stole) it from REALLY wants it back.  -  tymire
... Because does this mean that what it does isn't necessarily specific to magic or wizards?  Might it protect you from crossing other spiritual "lines?"  Such as a changeling being able to choose without choosing, or a White Court virgin or Red Court Infected making a feeding kill without turning, or inviting a supernatural creature across your threshold and having it not count.  Possible?