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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Silverblaze on May 02, 2011, 07:16:31 PM

Title: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: Silverblaze on May 02, 2011, 07:16:31 PM
Could in theory something with enough free will  choose, become a Denarian even if they aren't human?

We know wizards can become one.  It is safe to assume, minor practitioners can also.  Could certain vampires?  I'm assuming fae cannot.  Ghouls?  Werebeasts? Lycanthropes? WC virgins? Half Reds?  

Even crazier: dragons, temple dogs?  Though somethign tells me neither of those have traditional free will....

Cheesy? Overpowered? Yeah, very.  Is it possible?  Thoughts on this?

EDITS:

Theory persists and Fae cannot. Likely that vampires cannot.  Another theory suggests positive refresh is all that is required.
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: Belial666 on May 02, 2011, 07:29:07 PM
We have evidence (a straight statement from Mab) that Thomas can be the Winter Knight. We have circumstantial evidence Thomas could also become a Denarian if he takes up the right coin (I'm voting for Lasciel BTW)
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: Set Abominae on May 02, 2011, 07:36:01 PM
Hmm, my guess is that it would have to be something with true free will, not a slave of its nature like many (if not most) of the bugaboos are. The Denarians have a very specific connection to humanity's free will by way of the Almighty, so whether or not they can make a connection with anything that's not at least mostly human is questionable. Largely because of theological themes like the importance of human free will to Heaven.

I'd imagine true fae and vamps are out. Fae because they are "primal" beings of their own supernatural nature, and vamps because they already have a "demon in residence". Dragons, NO. Temple dogs, probably not, they already seem to be spirits inhabiting a "not quite normal" shell. Werewolves like the Alphas almost certainly could since they are technically just minor spell-casters. Ghouls, probably not, already a monster. Half-vamps, maybe, I suppose it depends on if the demon has really taken residence at infection or if that only happens at full vamp. "You went full vampire! You never go full vampire!"

It's a murky area of theological/metaphysical territory. I'd say something that is "at its core" human and not already hosting something potent (like a vamps demon or a loup-garou's curse) probably could be inhabited.
 
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: sandchigger on May 02, 2011, 07:47:59 PM
Like I said in another thread just now: Do you have free will (as represented by a positive refresh)? If yes then you can become a Denarian.
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: Set Abominae on May 02, 2011, 07:52:59 PM
Quote from: sandchigger on May 02, 2011, 07:47:59 PM
Like I said in another thread just now: Do you have free will (as represented by a positive refresh)? If yes then you can become a Denarian.

Well rules frameworks are one thing. Thematic consistency is another. Ultimately it comes down to "It's your game, if you wanna do it, go for it."
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: finnmckool on May 02, 2011, 08:00:49 PM
Mab said Thomas was "human enough" because he felt love, which is perhaps an expression of free will, you have to be able to defy a lot of everything including yourself to be in love. So I would say it's only for beings that have free will and can choose freely to take up the coin. Without free will there can be no sacrifice and I think that's what's at the heart of every real bargain, knowing what you're giving up, and being able to not just take what you want, but pay the full price.
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: Set Abominae on May 02, 2011, 08:21:50 PM
Quote from: finnmckool on May 02, 2011, 08:00:49 PM
Mab said Thomas was "human enough" because he felt love, which is perhaps an expression of free will, you have to be able to defy a lot of everything including yourself to be in love. So I would say it's only for beings that have free will and can choose freely to take up the coin. Without free will there can be no sacrifice and I think that's what's at the heart of every real bargain, knowing what you're giving up, and being able to not just take what you want, but pay the full price.

A fair point. It comes around to what I stated about the importance of free will. I'd have to wonder what might go down between a vamps demon and a Denarian if it did happen though. It would be a fair bet the Denarian is stronger, but that's one spiritual battle I'd be afraid to witness. It'd probably drive the human side of the vamp utterly bonkers in the process.

Quote from: Rechan on May 02, 2011, 08:23:42 PM
In a friend of mine's game, anything with a Soul can use a coin. A black vampire for instance can't do it because it's got no soul.

Now you could represent a soul by free will, which is represented by a positive refresh.

Another good point.
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: Rechan on May 02, 2011, 08:23:42 PM
In a friend of mine's game, anything with a Soul can use a coin. A black vampire for instance can't do it because it's got no soul.

Now you could represent a soul by free will, which is represented by a positive refresh.
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: zenten on May 02, 2011, 08:58:29 PM
I'm going with Red Court Infected being able to take up the coin, but Red Court Vampires are not.  This will actually be rather relevant most likely in the next session I run.
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: Silverblaze on May 02, 2011, 09:24:40 PM
So if we operate under the theory that some cannot become a denarian... can they still have a shadow and the nifty things that come with it? Lash for example?  Is the communication impossible between Fallen and host? Hexenwulfen have a demonic co-pilot and vamps have "demons"...would they vie for control?

I have reason to assume Knights of the Cross are not immune... since a denarian became a Knight, I would assume it works both ways.  I wonder if deals could be made with Mab and the like to keep the coins away from mortals, since we all seem to agree, many Fae are immune to the possession. 

Aha! Before a deal is struck...can two coins fight for one host? :o

I am thinking a link to choice and free will is involved.  Depending on ones game this could indeed mean positive refresh.   

A last bit to mull over...would any GM's consider allowing a player to be both "critter X" and a denarian?  What if the story had them find a coin...not start that way?  Would you use this amalgam as an antagonist?  I sure would.

Ugh...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: Set Abominae on May 02, 2011, 09:29:40 PM
Quote from: Silverblaze on May 02, 2011, 09:24:40 PM
So if we operate under the theory that some cannot become a denarian... can they still have a shadow and the nifty things that come with it? Lash for example?  Is the communication impossible between Fallen and host? Hexenwulfen have a demonic co-pilot and vamps have "demons"...would they vie for control?

I have reason to assume Knights of the Cross are not immune... since a denarian became a Knight, I would assume it works both ways.  I wonder if deals could be made with Mab and the like to keep the coins away from mortals, since we all seem to agree, many Fae are immune to the possession. 

Aha! Before a deal is struck...can two coins fight for one host? :o

I am thinking a link to choice and free will is involved.  Depending on ones game this could indeed mean positive refresh.   

A last bit to mull over...would any GM's consider allowing a player to be both "critter X" and a denarian?  What if the story had them find a coin...not start that way?  Would you use this amalgam as an antagonist?  I sure would.

Ugh...
(click to show/hide)

Careful, you're straying awful close to dividing by zero.  :o
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: Silverblaze on May 02, 2011, 09:31:37 PM
Quote from: Set Abominae on May 02, 2011, 09:29:40 PM
Careful, you're straying awful close to dividing by zero.  :o

I know.

I just hope this thread doesn't wind up creating a paradox by the end.
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: zenten on May 02, 2011, 09:50:11 PM
I wanna play a half fallen angel who takes up the coin of his parent.
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: citadel97501 on May 02, 2011, 10:10:33 PM
Quote from: zenten on May 02, 2011, 09:50:11 PM
I wanna play a half fallen angel who takes up the coin of his parent.

Damn that guy, has some daddy issues. . . but it does seem like a very fun RP experience. . . especially if he tries to redeem his father/mother. 
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on May 02, 2011, 10:39:23 PM
Personally, I think it has to have a soul.  If you can soulgaze it, sure.

Some WCVs: Okay.
RCIs: Okay.
Fairy Knights: Okay, but would really piss off courts and possibly deny Fey powers.
Ghouls: No.
RCVs: No.
Sidhe: No.
Outsiders: No.
KotCs: Of course.
Wizards: Obviously.
WCVirgins: Yes.
Hexenwulfs: Sure, although I think the Fallen would destroy or drown out the demonic co-pilot (actually, it would probably do this in WCVs too...possibly even able to "cure" white court vampirism...)

Deals with Sidhe to keep humanity destroying artifacts seem like a terrible idea...

If you can't have a coin/Fallen in you, you can't have a shadow.  It may be able to communicate in some way though.

A Soul to be corrupted and not just Free Will is the important bit.  What exactly has a Soul is probably up for debate, but it's clearly not just positive refresh (you can have a Soul and no free will, for instance, like Victor Sells).

Now, this leads to an interesting idea though: Can you have two types of Sponsored Magic?  I'd say probably (Harry is a good example right there).
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: Becq on May 03, 2011, 01:54:13 AM
In answer to the question "Who can make use of a Coin to become a Denarian?" I'd answer nobody.  Although it may seem like semantics, I think it's a fairly key point: it's not the bearer who "uses" the Coin; it's the Fallen in the Coin that uses the bearer.  And before someone points out certain Denarians who have retained a semblance of free will by forming a partnership of sorts with their coin's Fallen, I'll point out that the Fallen can choose to turn off the power at any time, or select what power to grant the bearer on an instant-by-instant basis.  The coin is not a 'magic item' to be wielded; it's a conduit by which the Fallen can tempt the bearer with offered power.

So what sort of creatures can a Coin make use of, then?  I don't have a solid answer, but I'll substitute for facts with the following complete conjecture:

I think that the goals of the Fallen involve the corruption of God's design, which means mortals -- including Wizards, but not including most other monsters.  I suspect that the Fallen could exert control over many such monsters, but generally speaking choose not to.  Why?  Well, perhaps they feed on ... well, on "the corruption of God's design".  Monsters acting monsterously doesn't do it for them, it has to be a mortal who chooses to act monsterously.

Or, at least, that's one possible explanation.
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: evileeyore on May 03, 2011, 02:06:25 AM
Quote from: Rechan on May 02, 2011, 08:23:42 PM
A black vampire for instance can't do it because it's got no soul.

What if it has an afro and can boogie?


/sillyness


Seriousness, I agree with Becq.  Anything is a potential host for a Denarion, however Mortals by definition are simply preferred.
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: Silverblaze on May 03, 2011, 02:21:34 AM
The question never was what can use hte coin.  It was more a matter of what could join with the angel inside.  I'm on the side that certain things can't act as host.  I also agree the mortals are preferred.
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: sinker on May 03, 2011, 04:33:05 AM
I love the idea of a RCI or a WCV who finds a coin who offers them control over their other natures while enslaving them to it.
Title: Re: Non-Human Denarians?
Post by: Silverblaze on May 03, 2011, 04:19:50 PM
Quote from: sinker on May 03, 2011, 04:33:05 AM
I love the idea of a RCI or a WCV who finds a coin who offers them control over their other natures while enslaving them to it.

I do too.  I was just trying to get a feel for how people felt about it and if supernaturals could accept the offer.

Seems most think so.  That's pretty cool / scary.