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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Eunomiac on April 30, 2011, 08:52:09 PM
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Could someone please help me understand why WCVs get a +0 Catch? By my math, it should be at least +2. Following the first three bullets on YW185:
- [+0] Focused vs. General -- Protects against all physical attacks, so no +2 bonus here.
- [+1] Access to Catch -- Even a +1 is pretty cynical, implying that "True Love" is comparable to True Magic (something "only a rare class of people in the world have"). It's certainly not comparable to a Sword of the Cross, something "only one or two people in the world have access to or could produce."
- [+1] Knowledge of Catch -- At the very least, "access to specific research material that could be restricted (like a wizard's library)" should turn up the general "WCVs are hurt by the opposite of their flavor-of-choice." This is hardly a secret on the same level as Nicodemus' noose.
Black Court Vampires add up to +4 by the same math. (The examples given at OW75 give them a Catch of +3, but only because their Toughness powers top out at -4 and you can't Catch yourself to lower than -1. The same argument doesn't fly with the WCVs, though, as the Raiths starting at OW207 still have +0 Catches.)
Lastly, WCVs are mechanically outshone by evokers and the faithful. I think they could use a little bump in refresh provided by upping the value of their Catch.
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Old debate. Lots of disagreement. Difficulties of "weaponizing" the actual Catch.
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Huge amounts of disagreements.
Personally, I think something that is so rare that only a few people have access to it should be +0 regardless of how well known the catch is, but that's my view.
Richard
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Hmm. Apologies for resurrecting an old debate (I seem to do that a lot with the WCVs). But wherever the line has been drawn in the sand, I think we can agree that the Catch rules do not comport with the Catch value given for WCVs. (As for weaponizing the Catch: Grapeshot + Taj Mahal pebbles = Pure. Awesome.)
And a +0 Catch... that's harsh. That's "Sword of the Cross that no one knows about" harsh. No, I'm squarely in the "WCV catch = +2" camp.
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Could someone please help me understand why WCVs get a +0 Catch? By my math, it should be at least +2. Following the first three bullets on YW185:
- [+0] Focused vs. General -- Protects against all physical attacks, so no +2 bonus here.
- [+1] Access to Catch -- Even a +1 is pretty cynical, implying that "True Love" is comparable to True Magic (something "only a rare class of people in the world have"). It's certainly not comparable to a Sword of the Cross, something "only one or two people in the world have access to or could produce."
- [+1] Knowledge of Catch -- At the very least, "access to specific research material that could be restricted (like a wizard's library)" should turn up the general "WCVs are hurt by the opposite of their flavor-of-choice." This is hardly a secret on the same level as Nicodemus' noose.
Black Court Vampires add up to +4 by the same math. (The examples given at OW75 give them a Catch of +3, but only because their Toughness powers top out at -4 and you can't Catch yourself to lower than -1. The same argument doesn't fly with the WCVs, though, as the Raiths starting at OW207 still have +0 Catches.)
Lastly, WCVs are mechanically outshone by evokers and the faithful. I think they could use a little bump in refresh provided by upping the value of their Catch.
I agree with you but there is no right answer, if this comes up in a games and people insist this is a +0 catch I would count true love as meaning the silly transcendent version of love that romantic period of literature was in love with. So love is only true when it is both requited and absolute (and when I say absolute, I mean ABSOLUTE) to justify it. So it is only true love when both parties would be willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING for each other and I would also say objects related to True Love do not fulfil the true love catch. There is also the even sillier fate descriptor of love so that everyone has one person they are fated to be in love with so unless this couple are fated to be together it doesn't count as true love.
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I'd argue anything you actively use as a weapon goes from being a symbol of love to being a symbol of a weapon. The new emotions writing over the old ones.
Actually, I have argued that. :)
I've also argued that just because everyone knows that a tear cried by someone who died 150 years ago in your catch - when there are no such tears in existence - should be +0, not +2. That if something cannot be effectively used against a creature then the catch should be +0 regardless of the number of people who know about it.
Now that I've summarized my position I'll stop beating this dead horse.
Richard
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At the end of the day, the Catch is as much a reflection of narrative impact as anything else. And the WCV Catch just doesn't come up that much, and that's alright. The best that tends to happen is that True Love ends up being the equivalent of a landmine. For Thomas, it has some serious life impacts, but those are story effects: weaponizing True Love in a combat situation just is not happening in the source materials, and we have to do some serious stretching to try to weaponize it in our own games.
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- [+1] Knowledge of Catch -- At the very least, "access to specific research material that could be restricted (like a wizard's library)" should turn up the general "WCVs are hurt by the opposite of their flavor-of-choice." This is hardly a secret on the same level as Nicodemus' noose.
Something I just realized is that our knowledge of the white court's catch (and our perspective on how accessible it is) comes from Harry. Harry has received this knowledge from Bob, who is a very powerful and rare contact who's specialization is in supernatural knowledge, and from Thomas, a very close personal connection to the white court. It's entirely possible that the knowledge of the court's weakness is much harder to obtain, however because we see the universe from Harry's eyes it seems much easier.
This is all speculation though, I have no idea how difficult it would be to obtain said knowledge.
Otherwise I'd echo what others have said, that often I equate the refresh value of a catch to how often it should come up in the narrative. Something else to consider as well is that the dresdenverse is a dark and a bit cynical place. Perhaps true love is harder to find there than it is here.
Edit: A last final bit. If the system is getting in the way of your fun or the story then screw what the book says. If you (and your table) want the WCV catch to be worth +2 then make it worth +2. However really make it worth +2. Don't just give someone the refresh bonus and then forget all about the catch. Make it that much more important to the game.
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I go with the "Info not available" and "Impossible to weaponize" on this one. Easily a +0 Catch.
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THIS:
At the end of the day, the Catch is as much a reflection of narrative impact as anything else. And the WCV Catch just doesn't come up that much, and that's alright. The best that tends to happen is that True Love ends up being the equivalent of a landmine. For Thomas, it has some serious life impacts, but those are story effects: weaponizing True Love in a combat situation just is not happening in the source materials, and we have to do some serious stretching to try to weaponize it in our own games.
... should have been included, verbatim, somewhere in the Catch section of YW185. I completely agree; the Catch's value should track its narrative significance, since that defines its value to the character's interests in the story. The problem is that the system for calculating the Catch value is flawed, in that it's too formulaic and misses the whole "narrative impact" angle; this is then obscured by fudging Catch values for the White Court without explanation, which irks me just a bit (... especially after creating an NPC and working out the Catch value yourself, to find it's inexplicably inconsistent with the template... so, maybe a misprint... better check the intertubes... *three hours later*...).
Okay, anyone who's tired of reading about this can stop here; I've made my non-argumentative points :)
Onward: Gotta disagree with the "rules and novels are in harmony" crowd. Under "Access," there have to be more symbols and trappings of True Love in any one city, town or village than all the Swords of the Cross in the world. It's the essence of conflict and story, and the Dresdenverse would be a boring and desolate place without it. Besides, hasn't True Love turned up in relatively benign places in the books? (I vaguely recall a, er... something... being used defensively to burn a Raith, uh... at some point... between books, um ... 3 and ... 10?) And if the White Court switched places with the Red, I guarantee you the White Council would have figured out a way to weaponize True Love. As for "Knowledge," I know that we see this through the lens of Harry and his White Court brother, which makes the White Court a little more central than the norm. But even taking that into account, the White Court is inarguably a Big Player, whatever their size. There's no way this universal and poetic weakness has not made the rounds, filtering down through the ranks of the White Council and others. This is not "personal knowledge required." Jade Court Catch? Sure. White Court Catch? No. And even if I'm wrong about one of "Access" or "Knowledge", you still can't get "+0" out of the rules. Ergo, my confusion and irritation are justified, with insurance. QED.
I hereby declare myself the victor of a forum debate. This has never happened before: Accordingly, I further declare myself the victor of the Internet.
Fulfillment at last.
*bows*
;)
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Edit: A last final bit. If the system is getting in the way of your fun or the story then screw what the book says. If you (and your table) want the WCV catch to be worth +2 then make it worth +2. However really make it worth +2. Don't just give someone the refresh bonus and then forget all about the catch. Make it that much more important to the game.
Oh -- I should be more clear: We've already made the change, and a few others, mostly to balance our Sorceress and WCVirgin (who, given her extra refresh in Incite Emotion upgrades and our chronicle's focus on social/political drama, makes her almost as narratively powerful as a full WCV). I'm just arguing that the rules as written can't possibly result in a +0 catch for a WCV, requiring some fudging.
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Just thought of something - something that might explain why it's only worth +0 without bringing logic into it.
True Love is the catch for one type of WCV. Others feed on other emotions and have other catches. If you hit Thomas with something that is laced with Bravery it will do nothing. If you hit one that feeds on fear and is repelled by Bravery with something oozing with True Love, then nothing will happen to it.
So a WCV comes up to you - what's his catch? You have to know him to know what emotion he feeds on and thus what his catch is. Having to know the person is +0 as far as the knowledge part of the catch goes.
Very rare: +0
Must know the person: +0
Total: +0
And for those of you who doubt its rarity, head over to the spoiler forum and read some WoJ's on the subject.
Richard
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Im not sure I buy the above arguement, you have to know a Black Court Vampires a black court vampire before you know what catch they have the same with any other group of supernatural creatures. Though I admit most of them leave quite obvious clues compared to the white's, though if a PC suddenly for no apparant reason feel an intense amount of lust for a perfect bishojo (pretty boy) he has just met, then the PC should be able to work out what she is faceing. Unless her luck is really bad and she is dealing with one of those Seduction Fae (the ones that consumate you to death) ;).
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But what if you met something you think feeds on love and it feeds on despair? Or fear? Sure, it's a WCV - you spotted that, but what emotion does it feed on? What emotion hurts it?
BCV - you spot one and reach for the garlic. They all share the same weakness. WCV don't.
Richard
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But what if you met something you think feeds on love and it feeds on despair? Or fear? Sure, it's a WCV - you spotted that, but what emotion does it feed on? What emotion hurts it?
Not only that, but they are simply harderto spot out of the crowd of humans. Also, just because it hit you with Incite Lust does nto make it a Raithe automatically... they can learn to incite and feed from outside their family lines.
BCV - you spot one and reach for the garlic. They all share the same weakness. WCV don't.
That's my take. BCV can't hide in a crowd of norms.
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True though you can't say that about red court vampires.
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True though you can't say that about red court vampires.
True but I'm pretty sure there Catch is +0 Knowledge, +2 Access. :D
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Blast, I thought my victory was secure! ;) Also, I apologize in advance for my love of arguing.
On "Access:"
"White Court vampires suffer injury from True expressions of pure, selfless emotions .... This effect includes physical objects related to that emotional energy (some White Court vampires have suffered grave injury from handling a wedding ring or a rose exchanged between lovers)." (OW90-91)
Now, I'm aware of that "some" in there, and how narrow a field it might circumscribe. But you would need to define "wedding ring" nearly out of existence to make it as rare as one of THE nails on THE Cross. For a +0 to stick, only "one or two people in the entire world" even have access to the Catch. Those are some very special wedding rings.
If it sounds like I'm being too literal on the "one or two people" thing, the comparative example in the book is a Sword of the Cross. The next step down, a +1 Catch, is accessible only to "a very rare class of people" -- as rare as True Magic. Moreover, the Raith Catch isn't limited to wedding rings: There are roses in there too, and framed pictures, and jewelry, and just about anything else exchanged by people in True Love (a--wait for it--"very rare class of people"), as well as expressions of True Love, whatever that means. ("Lord Raith, never bring a gun to... A POETRY FIGHT!")
Extrapolating to fear/True Courage: Medals and many other relics of war would have to count for True Courage vs Malvora, or I just don't understand the concept of True Courage. Raiding a museum or military family's suburban home, while ghoulish and deplorable and probably a lot of fun to roleplay, remains just a touch easier than pilfering Esperaccius from a Knight of the Cross.
As for weaponizing these trinkets, well, most of them are made of metal, and metallic things make excellent weapons. Sure, I agree that melting a wedding ring into a bullet would probably kill the love (though it evidently doesn't hurt the hereditariness of silver), so just propel it with magic. This isn't rocket science (...but it could be!) Anyway, I grant that roses might take some doing (I wonder if True Love dissolves in liquid nitrogen...), but, where there's a wizard, there's a way.
On "Knowledge:"
The "which House are you" WCV stranger is hardly the norm. It's not like the White Court hides who they are; they're nobility. They're protected by the Accords. The one's we've met go by their House surnames. Sure, if you meet one in an alley in a strange city, you might not know. But an established House of the White Court is not going to be incognito, because they're too busy being schemers and politickers nonpareil. Just watch whether their dinner is sighing, screaming, seething or sobbing, and you're set. This isn't necessarily easy, or it would be a +2. But neither does it compare with requiring intimate knowledge of the unique circumstances and two-millenia backstory of an unprecedented, secretive and awesomely powerful semi-demigod.
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Blast, I thought my victory was secure! ;) Also, I apologize in advance for my love of arguing.
On "Access:"
"White Court vampires suffer injury from True expressions of pure, selfless emotions .... This effect includes physical objects related to that emotional energy (some White Court vampires have suffered grave injury from handling a wedding ring or a rose exchanged between lovers)." (OW90-91)
Now, I'm aware of that "some" in there, and how narrow a field it might circumscribe. But you would need to define "wedding ring" nearly out of existence to make it as rare as one of THE nails on THE Cross. For a +0 to stick, only "one or two people in the entire world" even have access to the Catch. Those are some very special wedding rings.
Because you can't just reach for A wedding ring, or A rose exchanged between lovers. That couple has to not mere love each other, but that love must be 'True'. The only established method of testing whether an emotion is 'True' is to test it against an appropriate WCV. After which, if you're wrong, you'll be lucky to walk away with your mind intact. And even if you DO manage to identify such a couple, there's no guarantee that their love will have an effect on their wedding rings, or a given rose, or any other token at all. And, again there's no way to find out whether it HAS except to test it on a Raith.
Thus, since you can't know whether an item, or even a person, exemplifies or possess True Emotion, it takes 'personal knowledge' not of the WCV, but of the WEAPON as it relates to WCVs (+0 knowledge), and since you can't just go out and find such a weapon/person, you might as well not have access to it unless you ARE it (+0 accessibility).
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The catches in OW sometimes offer less refresh then the rules in YS indicate. White Court Vampires are not the only ones to whom this applies.
Links:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,22280.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,22280.0.html)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23446.0.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23446.0.html)
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I have a WCV in my group. I let him have 1 point of catch, and he also has 2 points of adjusted refresh.
You can do whatever you feel is appropriate. I come to the forums to get other ideas or feedback from people who know the rules as well or better than I do, but at the end of the day, it's your game - you can do what you want.
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The only established method of testing whether an emotion is 'True' is to test it against an appropriate WCV. After which, if you're wrong, you'll be lucky to walk away with your mind intact.
I now have a sick idea for a WCV plot, where they use the younger members to sniff out mortals with True Love and quietly murder them.
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I now have a sick idea for a WCV plot, where they use the younger members to sniff out mortals with True Love and quietly murder them.
That's sick. I think I like it.
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Am I the only one that, when this discussion is brought up, thinks of the old anime "The Super Dimension Fortress Macross" and what the power of love/song has on the Zentradi? Just find the entire idea humorous. Hehe could even go as far as saying that WCV have a catch vs magical girls. ;D
Seriously though imo you should be able to tell if something has the power of X with a soul gaze or the sight. This is especially true considering the fact that just being in love isn't enough, you need to "finalize" that commitment with a physical act, which based in the books trades pieces of your soul with the other person. Now have no idea what would have to be done for an item to be impowered with that or how that would work with the other WCV with other emotions.
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Am I the only one that, when this discussion is brought up, thinks of the old anime "The Super Dimension Fortress Macross" and what the power of love/song has on the Zentradi? Just find the entire idea humorous. Hehe could even go as far as saying that WCV have a catch vs magical girls. ;D
Seriously though imo you should be able to tell if something has the power of X with a soul gaze or the sight. This is especially true considering the fact that just being in love isn't enough, you need to "finalize" that commitment with a physical act, which based in the books trades pieces of your soul with the other person. Now have no idea what would have to be done for an item to be impowered with that or how that would work with the other WCV with other emotions.
Power:
Listen to my Song [-6]
You can make a mental grapple at (peformance) on all people who can see here your song to stop doing whatever they are doing and start listening to your song. People can hear your song even when logic dictates people wouldn't be able to hear your song (in space and in the middle of a Mech Battle).
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Power:
Listen to my Song [-6]
You can make a mental grapple on all people who can hear your song to stop doing whatever they are doing and start listening to your song. This somehow works even when logic dictates people wouldn't be able to hear your song (in space and in the middle of a Mech Battle).
I like it. A Lot! Few caveats though... It may be too expensive and likely needs a bit more system. How to resist (discipline?) if being struck breaks the hold. Does it work like a block?
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I figure the main reason is how hard it is to weaponize the catch. They're only hurt by True Love if they try to feed so you can't just get someone who's in love to punch them, and items that represent true love are usually not swords and guns.
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I figure the main reason is how hard it is to weaponize the catch. They're only hurt by True Love if they try to feed so you can't just get someone who's in love to punch them, and items that represent true love are usually not swords and guns.
It depends on how creative PCs are.
I would rule that a PC coating a weapon in the blood of one who is in true love would satisfy a WCV catch.
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You could look at it this question from the other direction. Remember that Aspects are described as "giv[ing] you a “vote” in what sort of game you’re going to be playing in". Why not treat the Catch the same way?
So let the player who is building their Catch decide what the Catch value is (within reason), then use that value to determine how often it comes into play. If they choose +3, then that means they are voting to have that Catch come into play often. Every game, and probably multiple times per game. Perhaps the character has an enemy who knows the character's Catch, and is deliberately making that Catch more widely available somehow (pick your own reason). If they choose +0, then they are voting to have it come into play only rarely, perhaps little more than once or twice in a campaign. Perhaps the character is only susceptible to the most pure samples of what might otherwise be something fairly common. (So perhaps only extremely highly refined iron, or iron with a very high carbon content, or only skillfully hand-forged iron, etc).
So let the players decide, then give them what they ask for. (And of course, be sure to be open with them regarding the implications of their decision; this should not be pulled out as a 'Gotcha!')
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It depends on how creative PCs are.
I would rule that a PC coating a weapon in the blood of one who is in true love would satisfy a WCV catch.
That seems off to me. First, the players need to identify True Love which is going to be really hard. Then, they need to keep the blood liquid since dried blood loses almost all of its potency. Finally, there's a possibility that drawing the blood would taint it from "True Love" to "aggression".
All of those are going to be tough. It's not like finding a priest with True Faith where anyone in the industry could have one on speed dial. True Love is mutually sacrificial love iirc, which doesn't really lend itself to the supernatural community and is probably temporary.
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I'd say that true love is never temporary, but then again I'm a romantic that way. ;)
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I'd say that true love is never temporary, but then again I'm a romantic that way. ;)
Well, whatever form of love actually effects WCV's is temporary, as shown by the fact that Harry lost his protection.
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You're right... now I'm sad.
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Well, whatever form of love actually effects WCV's is temporary, as shown by the fact that Harry lost his protection.
Harry lost his protection when he began an affair with another woman, one who wasn't his True Love.
It seems as though Butcher is aiming for more than just a feeling of love, but an ideal of it. An ideal that must not be acted against, lest it be lost.
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That seems off to me. First, the players need to identify True Love which is going to be really hard. Then, they need to keep the blood liquid since dried blood loses almost all of its potency. Finally, there's a possibility that drawing the blood would taint it from "True Love" to "aggression".
All of those are going to be tough. It's not like finding a priest with True Faith where anyone in the industry could have one on speed dial. True Love is mutually sacrificial love iirc, which doesn't really lend itself to the supernatural community and is probably temporary.
A ritual would make it easy to find true love.
And why does the blood have to be liquid?
This isn't chemistry - it's magic.
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A ritual would make it easy to find true love.
Why? There's a lot of talk when reading the Thaumaturgy chapter about the caster needing to understand what they are doing. i.e., you can't heal someone without an understanding of anatomy. In the books, Harry can't make another handkerchief full of sunlight because he's just not happy enough.
If you don't understand True Love, (which would probably mean possessing it yourself, or having lost it in some mind boggling way that didn't turn your memories tragic) how in the world would you even know what to look for?
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Bah don't you know anything? Everyone knows that the correct answer to everything in this game is a powerfull enough rital. It doesn't matter that pretty much every player wizard won't have a centries old spirit of knowledge they can consult for the payment of dime store novels. It's completely obvious what is required and characters can come up with something that can work exactly as they want it to in a couple minutes......
Actually all you should have to do to find something with any true emotion is just use "the sight" and look around. If it's a strong enough emotion to affect others it should be obvious while looking at it that way.
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A ritual would make it easy to find true love.
How? Thaumaturgy is about taking something small and making the effect larger. You need a good connection to True Love in order to find it, and since Harry couldn't do this in the short story where this would have been useful I'd guess that just being effected by True Love doesn't cut it.
And why does the blood have to be liquid?
This isn't chemistry - it's magic.
Dry blood loses its potency. In Storm Front Harry needed to do a spell quickly because it wouldn't work with dry blood and Harry has shown concern about leaving wet blood but not dry blood.
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A ritual would make it easy to find true love.
Sure. Get yourself a connection to True Love (ie. a small sample of True Love), and you can find it elsewhere. Of course, by then you already have what you're looking for, so...
And why does the blood have to be liquid?
This isn't chemistry - it's magic.
The blood of living things is liquid. Once blood removed from a living thing dries, it loses most of its symbolic connection to the blood still possessed by the living.
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Has anyone besides me ever read the Casca:The Eternal Mercenary series? Its heyday was a couple of decades ago, but here's a link that explains the series:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casca_%28series%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casca_%28series%29)
Basically it's a riff on the eternal jew story - Casca was a soldier at the crucifixion. After using his spear to hurry things along, he is told: "Soldier, you are content with what you are. Then that you shall remain until we meet again. As I go now to my father, you must one day come to me."
Since then the character hasn't been able to die. He's tried to die a couple of times (and others have tried to put him in the ground countless over the last 2000 years) but he remains ageless and undying. In game terms he has recovery at the level of physical immunity. No matter what happens (even if his brains are scattered on the ground) he will get better. Of course in game terms such a thing would require a catch.
Since he's left countless records, and in the books there's an order that follows him around (they know that he'll be there for the second coming so follow him in the hopes that they can be there too), a wizard would be able research that catch. Using the rules as written, the catch would be worth a -1.
How do you weaponise or exploit the catch of "can't die until he meets Jesus again"? That's your problem - using the rules as written that's as valid as a catch as "Sword of the Cross" or any other virtually impossible catch.
Which is a long example to stress a point: any catch that can't be exploited should be worth +0. Otherwise taking out nationwide commercials to brag about how you will live until the second coming would be worth +2 as a catch.
Richard
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Rather than respond to everyone in turn, I will just respond to myself.
A ritual would make it easy to find true love.
Ok people - think outside the box. What if a ritual were used to make an enchanted pair of glasses that can find true love?
Rituals are not just used for a thaumatergical effect - they're also used to make enchanted items.
As for feeling true love or whatnot, the symbolism necessary should be sufficient.
And why does the blood have to be liquid?
Liquid blood uses its potency for SPELLCASTING. We've never seen a weaponized WC catch. I don't see how it would matter if the catch (which is symbolic) is in liquid form or powder.
Additionally, if you're a purist, you could just put a little bit of thinner in the "true love blood", put it in the head of a hollow point, and seal it with wax.
This isn't chemistry - it's magic.
Yup - like I said.
I think some folks make it more difficult than it has to be.
WCVs burn if they com in contact with their catch, and feel uncomfortable around it. The obvious conclusion is that it should not be that hard to weaponize their catch.
Hell, if you were to cut up a well used Obama campaign poster (that was used almost as an idol of hope), put the small pieces in the heads of bullets and blast a Malvora, it should work as a catch.
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The way I see it a +0 catch is something that may come up once or twice in a persons entire life and/or something ludicrously rare (like the swords of the cross) if true love is both easy to find and easy to weaponise then it should be a +1 or +2 catch, but true love is hard to find say for example 1 case of love in every million is true and it is hard to weaponise then it would deserve the +0 catch.
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Hell, if you were to cut up a well used Obama campaign poster (that was used almost as an idol of hope), put the small pieces in the heads of bullets and blast a Malvora, it should work as a catch.
Probably best not to bring politics into the conversation, as some wiseass might throw out a comment like "Keep in mind that the Malvora Catch is True Hope, not just Hope."
Good thing there are no Epic Wiseasses around in a forum relating to Harry Dresden... :)
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Probably best not to bring politics into the conversation, as some wiseass might throw out a comment like "Keep in mind that the Malvora Catch is True Hope, not just Hope."
Good thing there are no Epic Wiseasses around in a forum relating to Harry Dresden... :)
Yeah -didn't say what my political stance is... nor will I. :)
The way I see it a +0 catch is something that may come up once or twice in a persons entire life and/or something ludicrously rare (like the swords of the cross) if true love is both easy to find and easy to weaponise then it should be a +1 or +2 catch, but true love is hard to find say for example 1 case of love in every million is true and it is hard to weaponise then it would deserve the +0 catch.
Indeed.
I don't think satisfying a white court catch would be easily or super readily available, but it would not be impossible or only 3 in the world.
Harry Dresden is TERRIBLE at romance. He dates worse than I did when I was 21 and totally clueless... yet he was able to find true love.
I don't think true love in the DV is common, but it's not exactly like looking for the "real killer" like OJ does either. :P
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Some people seem to take it that the first step is to determine how hard the catch is to satisfy and then calculate the refresh return based on that. I think that's the wrong way around. First decide what you want the refresh return to be and that decides how hard the catch is to satisfy. Decide the answer you want first, and then backtrack to that answer.
From the examples in the novels, I think you can easily justify +0 if that is your goal. You could decide that true emotions are rare and they can't easily be weaponized "just because". I mean, even when Harry had the true love protection in the book, it seemed to have little to do with more effectively hurting the WC vampires and much more to protecting him from their mental powers. It was as if the Catch was being applied to their Incite Emotion ability rather than their toughness. Sure his touch burned them a little, but even if he was a karate master, I'm not sure it would have made his punches more effective.
Easily justifiable as a +0 if that's what you want.
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Sure his touch burned them a little, but even if he was a karate master, I'm not sure it would have made his punches more effective.
Given that the WCV has Recovery instead of Toughness, satisfying the Catch would not have make the WCV any more easier to damage. But the WCV would have been unable to easily recover from his blows.
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All I know is that if my players tried to make glasses that could find true love, the rest of the people at the table would slap them upside the head.
I'll say it again, because I want to know the other side of the argument, and because this was simply not addressed: How is the Wizard supposed to know how to look for something that they don't understand? That's like saying they are going to make a dowsing rod for moon-dust. Even if there's some of it around, they've never touched it or seen it, so how to they know what to key the spell to look for?
True Love (or hope or courage or what not) seem like they are the sorts of things you could look everywhere for, but won't know what you're really looking for until you have experienced it yourself. That is to say, you could find a couple that seems like they are in true love, have one of them punch a WCV, and have nothing happen, because they weren't actually experiencing True Love.
I mean, really, how in the hell can you test for that??
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All I know is that if my players tried to make glasses that could find true love, the rest of the people at the table would slap them upside the head.
I'll say it again, because I want to know the other side of the argument, and because this was simply not addressed: How is the Wizard supposed to know how to look for something that they don't understand? That's like saying they are going to make a dowsing rod for moon-dust. Even if there's some of it around, they've never touched it or seen it, so how to they know what to key the spell to look for?
True Love (or hope or courage or what not) seem like they are the sorts of things you could look everywhere for, but won't know what you're really looking for until you have experienced it yourself. That is to say, you could find a couple that seems like they are in true love, have one of them punch a WCV, and have nothing happen, because they weren't actually experiencing True Love.
I mean, really, how in the hell can you test for that??
Wizards can also summon a demon without ever having been a demon, seen a demon, experienced a demon, etc.
The point is that it's /magic/, and there are instructions for how to do popular magical things.
Since humanity has had a thing for true love since we crawled out of caves, it would be logical to assume there are documented spells and enchanting processes involving true love.
Making having known true love be a stipulation to find true love - for a wizard- who already ignores a lot of logical and physical laws with magic is silly.
Not only that, many people with true love don't even know they have it until it's gone.
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Given that the WCV has Recovery instead of Toughness, satisfying the Catch would not have make the WCV any more easier to damage. But the WCV would have been unable to easily recover from his blows.
...or so you theorize. A GM could rule that being a kung-fu master who has found and had sex with his true love and is punching a white court vampire still is not sufficient to activate the catch and cause any increase in recovery time. And given the Catch is +0, I might rule just that, allowing it only to be used as a Compel tool.
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Wizards can also summon a demon without ever having been a demon, seen a demon, experienced a demon, etc.
The point is that it's /magic/, and there are instructions for how to do popular magical things.
Since humanity has had a thing for true love since we crawled out of caves, it would be logical to assume there are documented spells and enchanting processes involving true love.
Making having known true love be a stipulation to find true love - for a wizard- who already ignores a lot of logical and physical laws with magic is silly.
Not only that, many people with true love don't even know they have it until it's gone.
See, I understand now. You and I are simply at a serious stylistic impasse. Where I'm coming from, your Demon example is just as far-fetched. Wizards are going to have to have some knowledge of how to do it to begin with. Now, that could be a dusty old tome, I'm fine with that. But they have to have the tome to begin with, and someone had to write it to begin with.
But really, this is all about style. You seem to want a more high-powered, magic-solves-everything kind of campaign. Which is totally-absolutely fine for you and your group.
My group, on the other hand, would see this as bull (as would I) and call foul on it. Really, assuming magic can solve everything, and always have the answer is just an easy win button to me (and, really, kind of against the spirit of the stories, if you are going to play in the Dresdenverse...).
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Thier also going to need the true name of true love.
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I'm of the opinion that if an (albeit powerful) wizard can drop a satellite on top of a town, making a pair of magical glasses that see the aura of love would be easy sauce.
Not only that, there's already a power in the RAW to see that which is unseen. I don't think it'd be too terribly difficult to tap an NPC who has the power to see the aura of true love...
::shrug::
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Like I said, I'm happy to agree to disagree, so no snark necessary. ;D
I just see those two things as totally different animals. One is really nasty evocation (maybe straight killin thaumaturgy, but still basically just earth magic - as in gravity) whereas the other is like healing someone: you can't do it without understanding it. Even a relative novice can make something float, or be heavier, but that's because everyone has experienced gravity.
As to the use of an NPC... if one exists in your game, feel free to use them, provided you are friends with them and can convince them. Honestly, that sounds like it would be one of the most bitter, angry and uncooperative characters ever, if someone could even find them to begin with.
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Mcoy's probably the most powerful killer in the entire white council, besides perhaps the merlin and doing what he did with the sattelite though complex when considering velocity and aiming is more an act of power than finesse all it was, was a big pull spell whereas finding true love a conceptual concept would be divination and divination either needs a complete understanding of what you are looking for which is encapsulated in the true name or a sample of the thing you are looking for.
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Mcoy's probably the most powerful killer in the entire white council, besides perhaps the merlin and doing what he did with the sattelite though complex when considering velocity and aiming is more an act of power than finesse all it was, was a big pull spell whereas finding true love a conceptual concept would be divination and divination either needs a complete understanding of what you are looking for which is encapsulated in the true name or a sample of the thing you are looking for.
Thank you very much for saying that better than I could! ;D
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But really, this is all about style. You seem to want a more high-powered, magic-solves-everything kind of campaign. Which is totally-absolutely fine for you and your group.
My group, on the other hand, would see this as bull (as would I) and call foul on it. Really, assuming magic can solve everything, and always have the answer is just an easy win button to me (and, really, kind of against the spirit of the stories, if you are going to play in the Dresdenverse...).
I believe my snark was very toned down and I was just responding in kind after reading the above post.
Heck, I didn't even make any veiled insults in my reply. :)
See, my opinion is that the DFRPG rewards creativity, and both I and my players would see a GM who would not allow a fairly basic ritual to find something as piddly as true love when Harry Dresden can track a single person to hell and gone to be both narrow minded and stagnant.
Magic is not the answer to everything, but neither is making something needlessly complicated or harder than it has to be.
Hell, for a fate point, a PC should be able to make a declaration that his/her current relationship is true love while dealing with a WCV.
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Not only that, there's already a power in the RAW to see that which is unseen. I don't think it'd be too terribly difficult to tap an NPC who has the power to see the aura of true love...
::shrug::
You really think that finding an minor talent with the ability to see/smell/hear/feel the presence of True Love is going to be even meaningfully feasible?
It's not like 4400, here, with a 'Supernatural Power Registry' mandated by law. These people aren't listed in the telephone book, and they don't generally advertise what they are capable of, if they even truly grasp its significance.
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My take on 'Finding True Love' is that it wouldn't do you any good. However, regarding the question of "can magic do it", the general rule seems to be that magic can do anything that mundane action can do, while ignoring things that would make it generally impossible.
Can mundane action find True Love? Sure, we have an example in the novels. Thomas runs the salon where he comes in contact with a great number of people every day, and occasionally he runs across True Love. So it's possible to do with with a White Court Vampire making what I would describe as a Contacts roll. (That is, the WCV either already knows someone with True Love or can interact with a lot of people and can find one.)
So you could do a magical ritual to find true love, but one of the necessary components is the willing cooperation of a WCV. No vampire and you can't make the ritual work. The shifts of the ritual are equal to the Contacts roll.
That seems a fair and equitable way to handle it.
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I believe my snark was very toned down and I was just responding in kind after reading the above post.
Heck, I didn't even make any veiled insults in my reply. :)
See, my opinion is that the DFRPG rewards creativity, and both I and my players would see a GM who would not allow a fairly basic ritual to find something as piddly as true love when Harry Dresden can track a single person to hell and gone to be both narrow minded and stagnant.
Magic is not the answer to everything, but neither is making something needlessly complicated or harder than it has to be.
Hell, for a fate point, a PC should be able to make a declaration that his/her current relationship is true love while dealing with a WCV.
That's cool. I didn't mean to rub you the wrong way, if I did. We are very obviously playing very different games, as evidenced by you referring to "something as piddly as true love," so I'll leave you to it at this point. Peace out.
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This argument is, not to put too fine a point on it, stupid.
Both sides seem to have started with their conclusion. What's more, people are trying to use their conclusions to prove those very same conclusions.
Alright, just needed to say that. Sorry if that was rude.
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Both sides seem to have started with their conclusion. What's more, people are trying to use their conclusions to prove those very same conclusions.
Isn't that the entire point of posting things on forums? ;D
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This argument is, not to put too fine a point on it, stupid.
Both sides seem to have started with their conclusion. What's more, people are trying to use their conclusions to prove those very same conclusions.
Alright, just needed to say that. Sorry if that was rude.
Sancta, you're one of the most patient and logical posters here. You also have near infinite patience with others on the boards.
I wouldn't expect you to grasp the silliness of us more... easily riled up posters lol.
BTW, that was not snark. It was an honest compliment.
Isn't that the entire point of posting things on forums? ;D
Indeed... lol.
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I keep telling myself I'll stop posting on this subject.
What can I say? There's something in me that sometimes needs to grind a topic into the ground. Sometimes you just have to give into your sadistic necrophiliac bestiality impulses and beat that dead horse a few more times.
Richard
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Isn't that the entire point of posting things on forums? ;D
Well, yes, we do want community feedback, but occasionally a discussion reveals an entrenched set of irreconcilable opinions. It goes from peer review to an ideological debate. Recognizing that it has done so can be tricky, because each side thinks the other is Wrong, and it isn't always clear to each participant that they can say:
1. I cannot endorse your solution for reasons X, Y and Z.
2. However, I can see where you are coming from.
3. Let's leave these thoughts for those who come after, so that they can determine what's best for them and their game table.
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You really think that finding an minor talent with the ability to see/smell/hear/feel the presence of True Love is going to be even meaningfully feasible?
It's not like 4400, here, with a 'Supernatural Power Registry' mandated by law. These people aren't listed in the telephone book, and they don't generally advertise what they are capable of, if they even truly grasp its significance.
Regardless it comes to a simple aspect of the game:
Which is more interesting? That they can find someone who is in True Love, or not? Can they or can't they?
I'm pretty sure the rules say "Never just say No". ;)
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Regardless it comes to a simple aspect of the game:
Which is more interesting? That they can find someone who is in True Love, or not? Can they or can't they?
I'm pretty sure the rules say "Never just say No". ;)
The Dark Powers are always willing to help.
Just 'tapping an npc with the power to see true love without too much difficulty', though? Not a chance. This is the kind of thing that's going to take serious effort, and with no guarantees of success.
Unless the GM has orchestrated the entire situation to absolutely demand that such an npc be readily available, but then, the same goes for Doilies of Unmaking to save your RCI girlfriend.
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Regardless it comes to a simple aspect of the game:
Which is more interesting? That they can find someone who is in True Love, or not? Can they or can't they?
I'm pretty sure the rules say "Never just say No". ;)
You can just say No to anything unreasonable. Let them try, and if they have a really awesome and creative way of doing it maybe have something work. But there's no "we'll just find something that counters that +0 catch".
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I think hunting down ways to "bottle True Love" for a weapon could be a great adventure idea that leads into a large scale conflict (or conflict head) with the White Court.
That's the type of conflict that one should spend time preparing for anyway. So that they can see your preparations and act against them while you secretly orchestrate your own plans behind their back (while simultaneously playing into their hands) before you just hit them with as much firepower as you can muster.
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Meh - perhaps part of the problem in communication here is that I am running a submerged campaign where one of my characters IS a WCV, and one of my characters is a 10 physical stress track scion of Odin.
A mook WCV is not much of a challenge to my players so I haven't given it a lot of though, and the catch wouldn't be very hard for them to find since they can already waste one in short time anyway.
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Meh - perhaps part of the problem in communication here is that I am running a submerged campaign where one of my characters IS a WCV, and one of my characters is a 10 physical stress track scion of Odin.
A mook WCV is not much of a challenge to my players so I haven't given it a lot of though, and the catch wouldn't be very hard for them to find since they can already waste one in short time anyway.
That's the thing. What do the players gain by subverting the catch? Not much, he's just able to take an extra minor consequence and he's tougher between scenes. How hard is it to do? Pretty damn hard given it's a +0 catch. It's just not worth it and you'd have to bend a lot of setting stuff to do it.
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the catch wouldn't be very hard for them to find since they can already waste one in short time anyway.
These two statements do not, in fact, follow logically.
The fact that they can 'waste' a WCV without implementing the catch has no bearing on how easy it would be for them to implement the catch.
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These two statements do not, in fact, follow logically.
The fact that they can 'waste' a WCV without implementing the catch has no bearing on how easy it would be for them to implement the catch.
It does in the sense that it becomes not worthwhile for the GM to spend a lot of time throwing obstacles in their way. If the PCs are bound and determined to satisfy that catch and willing to spend as much play time as necessary to do so, then the GM is more likely to concede and let them do it. Since it's not going to matter much in the end, the quest has relatively little narrative weight. Why should he put focus on it? Just say "Yes" and move on.
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It does in the sense that it becomes not worthwhile for the GM to spend a lot of time throwing obstacles in their way. If the PCs are bound and determined to satisfy that catch and willing to spend as much play time as necessary to do so, then the GM is more likely to concede and let them do it. Since it's not going to matter much in the end, the quest has relatively little narrative weight. Why should he put focus on it? Just say "Yes" and move on.
Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Since the catch to a WCV is not going to make a fight significantly easier or add much to the narrative, I don't have the time to waste on it.
If my PCs really want to find a WCV catch, I will let them without too much difficulty. If it were a lower refresh campaign and a WCV was the big bad, my feelings on the matter would change quite a bit.
I also wanted to the catch to be easier to find since I have a PC who is a WCV, and I would like to throw his catch at him once in a while. :P
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Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Since the catch to a WCV is not going to make a fight significantly easier or add much to the narrative, I don't have the time to waste on it.
If my PCs really want to find a WCV catch, I will let them without too much difficulty. If it were a lower refresh campaign and a WCV was the big bad, my feelings on the matter would change quite a bit.
I also wanted to the catch to be easier to find since I have a PC who is a WCV, and I would like to throw his catch at him once in a while. :P
My opinion about the catch's value is that it varies on your interpretation of true love and my interpretation of true love is probably a +1 or 2 refresh catch. That being said if you want to heavly use a white court vampires catch against him I would give him a refresh rebate for his trouble. The refresh rebate in my mind is all based on how often the catch will show up in game/life. If the catch will only show up as a major ground shaking event in a pc/npc life (once or twice in an entire campaign in my opinion otherwise it will lose its effect) then it warrants a +0 catch. A perfect example of a +0 catch fufillment was Nicodemeus his catch was satisfied only once (I think) in over a thousand year life span and he was shocked to the core when it happened. If the catch is going to be something you casually throw at a pc or npc then it warrants a higher refresh rebate.
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My opinion about the catch's value is that it varies on your interpretation of true love and my interpretation of true love is probably a +1 or 2 refresh catch. That being said if you want to heavly use a white court vampires catch against him I would give him a refresh rebate for his trouble. The refresh rebate in my mind is all based on how often the catch will show up in game/life. If the catch will only show up as a major ground shaking event in a pc/npc life (once or twice in an entire campaign in my opinion otherwise it will lose its effect) then it warrants a +0 catch. A perfect example of a +0 catch fufillment was Nicodemeus his catch was satisfied only once (I think) in over a thousand year life span and he was shocked to the core when it happened. If the catch is going to be something you casually throw at a pc or npc then it warrants a higher refresh rebate.
The PC in my campaign who is a WCV has a +1 refresh catch. :)