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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: citadel97501 on April 27, 2011, 05:30:37 AM
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Hello all,
I was just thinking couldn't you use a shotgun to parry an unarmed strike, or a sword swing? It is a big piece of metal with some wood? I just don't think you need a stunt to use a one to parry, now I definitely can see that you might get a compel from your ST/GM, but it just seems reasonable to me.
Please give me your opinions?
P.S.
No, I am not suggesting that you get to use the Gun skill for this, or that it should apply to all Guns.
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It would be an improvised Melee Weapon.
So it would probably damage and eventually destroy the Rifle after a few defenses.
Other than that i see no problem if you do that once in a while.
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It would be an improvised Melee Weapon.
So it would probably damage and eventually destroy the Rifle after a few defenses.
Other than that i see no problem if you do that once in a while.
I pretty much agree with this.
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I wonder what the stunt would look like to make a Shotgun no longer an improvised weapon, seems like a better option than making the Holy Shotgun of Antioch (Item of Power).
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I pretty much agree with this.
How so? I do not have much experience with shotguns per se, but most modern rifles are pretty sturdy. Granted that they are probably not designed to take hits from a Supernatural/Mythic Strength character, but any weapon would not be in good condition no matter if it is improvised or not in this situation.
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How so? I do not have much experience with shotguns per se, but most modern rifles are pretty sturdy. Granted that they are probably not designed to take hits from a Supernatural/Mythic Strength character, but any weapon would not be in good condition no matter if it is improvised or not in this situation.
Modern firearms can be fairly tough. At the same time, some are rather flimsy (think Kel Tec). Using most modern firearms as some form of melee weapon, whether it is for offensive or defensive use, it most likely going to throw things out of alignment after a few good, solid impacts. Particularly if it something auto or semi-auto, the rounds might not feeding into the chamber properly. While the physical gun itself wouldn't most likely be destroyed outright, it wouldn't be able to be safely fired either.
-Cheers
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Sounds like a solid reason to take craftsmanship for this combatant to me. . . Ack, damn ghouls bent my, Baby. . .
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Modern firearms can be fairly tough. At the same time, some are rather flimsy (think Kel Tec). Using most modern firearms as some form of melee weapon, whether it is for offensive or defensive use, it most likely going to throw things out of alignment after a few good, solid impacts. Particularly if it something auto or semi-auto, the rounds might not feeding into the chamber properly. While the physical gun itself wouldn't most likely be destroyed outright, it wouldn't be able to be safely fired either.
-Cheers
Wonderful territory for a compel, there.
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The US Army still teaches bacic combat skills with rifles.
I can remember Learning to attack with both sides, Bayonet and Bytt Stock, and to block income attacks.
food for thought
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The US Army still teaches bacic combat skills with rifles.
I can remember Learning to attack with both sides, Bayonet and Bytt Stock, and to block income attacks.
food for thought
Probably part of the reason why the army also trains its soldiers in maintaining their guns on their own, aye? ... just kidding.
I probably wouldn't compel a player to break his/her gun partly because I think swinging a rifle as a club has something cool about it and partly because I have difficulties seeing where the fun or interest is in it.
Besides: don't we have a nice table for breaking stuff? Couldn't we adapt it to this problem if we have to? Let's just take the Deliberate Hexing Table (YW258). I'd say if you inflict the appropriate amount of stress with the attack the weapon could have a malfunction. For most modern guns that'd be 4 Stress while older ones could go up to 5 Stress because of their heavier sturdier build... But why bother really. Let it come down to narration. If the player decides to narrate it that way, slide him a fate point for troubles to come...
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The US Army still teaches bacic combat skills with rifles.
I can remember Learning to attack with both sides, Bayonet and Bytt Stock, and to block income attacks.
food for thought
I'm x Airborne Infantry.
I maintain what I said.
First of all, most weapons are not built as robustly as a battle rifle. Second, the parries you do with a battle rifle are learned to be used against someone else with a bayonet on the end of a rifle, because if they have bullets and you don't, you're pretty much screwed.
The thrusting action of a rifle/bayonet-spear is NOT the same as a full armed swing of a sword or a baseball bat.
Thrusting with a bayonet won't hurt a weapon - all the force is heading straight back into the weapon where it's strongest- the line of the barrel. Think wood grain that goes one way. Once you start hammering the SIDE of the weapon, shenanigans happen.
I happen to know this because I've seen a number of weapons get burned in during my day. Being burned in means the weapon wasn't rigged to the jump harness correctly, and when parachuting, a soldier would pull his release tab to drop his ruck 50-200 feet up in the air... and the weapon just fell. In a bag.
Sometimes, it wasn't pretty.
There is a reason why folks use rubberduckies for bayonet training too. If they used real rifles instead of the dummy rifles, each basic training class would need a new set of beater rifles.
Last but not least, I don't think that bayonet training is still taught because it is practical in any way. It's still taught for the same reason that cherries have to sound off with "Blood Blood make the grass grow green!" - it gets young kids used to the idea of killing.
I would model firearms blocking similarly to hexing. The older a weapon is, the less likely it is to fail after blocking.
Muskets you can block pretty well with. A Steyr Aug... not so much.
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Have you heard when they first tested one of the early line of assault rifles in the uk, they got the scots guard to test it and where somewhat mythed when the weapons came back with bent barrels because the Scots Guard had been using it for bayonet practice.
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I agree with most you said
Was X combat medic, and have see a tangle or streamer once or twice... agree no pretty.
But was thinking more of a block with the butt of the stock
sword comes down, you swing the butt of the stock to knock the weapon off track.
a direct sword down, with rifle held in a staff block would hurt a lot. lot depends on how you think about the block.
On a side note I think my Mossberg shotgun would hold up quite well, but again would depend on the weapon and such
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This argument is trending a bit too much to realism. How do you break a gun in-game? You have the antagonist make a Declaration with Guns, Weapons, or Fists (whcihever is appropriate) that his latest blow has imposed the 'Broken' Aspect on the gun that was being used to parry his melee attack.
The PC can make a Craftsmanship roll to remove the Aspect.
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Muskets you can block pretty well with. A Steyr Aug... not so much.
I can't recomend a Mosin-Nagent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin%E2%80%93Nagant) enough in this category.
AK vs AR vs Mosin-Nagent (http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm)
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Thanks for the laugh, I love the links. . .
Oh and damn am I happy to see other vets, or currently serving soldiers here. . .
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I can't recomend a Mosin-Nagent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin%E2%80%93Nagant) enough in this category.
AK vs AR vs Mosin-Nagent (http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm)
I'm planning on getting one.
I want an M44 to go hog hunting with. I like the bayonet on it. The potential to hunt with the bayonet out, and potentially have a handy spear if a 300 lb pig charges me appeals to my survival instinct. :P
Something like an M44 I would let a PC use as a melee weapon or a firearm.
In fact, I have an item of power in my campaign that specifically states it can be used as a melee weapon.
http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/let-s-keep-austin-a-little-less-weird/items/terror-cannon (http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/let-s-keep-austin-a-little-less-weird/items/terror-cannon)
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I want an M44 to go hog hunting with. I like the bayonet on it. The potential to hunt with the bayonet out, and potentially have a handy spear if a 300 lb pig charges me appeals to my survival instinct. :P
I know a guy down here that goes hoggin every year, he never goes with out someone on backup carrying a boar spear.
But a Nagant with a good bayonet would do fine in a pinch. ;)
For PCs though, how in the hell are they going to carry it around concealed? They'd have to use magic. Now we need to come up with ways for a Gun Toting Wizard to protect his ammo... cause a Nagant would probably survive a modern Wizards natural hexing. It'll jam every 3 or 4 shots anyway... :D
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LOL
I'd look at anyone funny if they suggested using a bayonet for hunting... EXCEPT for hunting hogs. I grew up in the swamps and marshes of Georgia and I fear hogs more than I do snakes and gators.
Most of the World War II era battle rifles were very sturdy and solid weapons. And a lot heavier than a modern battle rifle with solid wood furniture to boot. Not to be to blunt or insensitive, but you could beat a man to death with a Garand and still expect it to fire right after.
I would simply assign any given weapon a number of stresses and, possibly, an armor value. This would include consequences as well; just for fun and flavor. You know, hey, your rifle now has the moderate consequence Jam-Happy or Untrue Barrel.
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I would simply assign any given weapon a number of stresses and, possibly, an armor value. This would include consequences as well; just for fun and flavor. You know, hey, your rifle now has the moderate consequence Jam-Happy or Untrue Barrel.
For an Equipment Is Important game, that sounds like a perfect solution.
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For an Equipment Is Important game, that sounds like a perfect solution.
I agree.
And resources+craftsmanship could fix the weapon, getting rid of the consequences it took.
It's an elegant solution, but kind of crunchy. Heck, combat can take a while as is - could you imagine dealing with stress for weapons too!? :P
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I agree.
And resources+craftsmanship could fix the weapon, getting rid of the consequences it took.
It's an elegant solution, but kind of crunchy. Heck, combat can take a while as is - could you imagine dealing with stress for weapons too!? :P
I also love to play GURPS. I love crunchy... in fact I'm constantly having a knee-jerk reaction to DFRPG's soggy edges of storytellingness. It's not what I'm used to.
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This argument is trending a bit too much to realism. How do you break a gun in-game? You have the antagonist make a Declaration with Guns, Weapons, or Fists (whcihever is appropriate) that his latest blow has imposed the 'Broken' Aspect on the gun that was being used to parry his melee attack.
The PC can make a Craftsmanship roll to remove the Aspect.
You might want to read the opening paragraphs of the short story Day Off, where Harry goes off about realism...
There are also stunts in Spirit of the Century where characters can use 'improvised' melee weapons which (beer bottle, chair, etc) which can then break after successful uses. And again, while something like a rifle might not break after being used to wack something, or keep something from wacking you, some of the springs and other small moving bits inside might not be where they're supposed to be in order to fire safely...
If I had to use a gun as a melee weapon and wanted to still use it as a gun afterwards, I'd go with a M1903 Springfield, or a M1912 Winchester myself.
-Cheers
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The intrepid hero with the most toys carries one of these:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_59GYpEVAu0U/TRhPlMZmZqI/AAAAAAAAApM/IIvitC0dhlo/s1600/flintlock-axe.jpg)
..that has been enchanted as an item of power to shoot holy saw blades.
:P
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^ this
nice
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The intrepid hero with the most toys carries one of these:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_59GYpEVAu0U/TRhPlMZmZqI/AAAAAAAAApM/IIvitC0dhlo/s1600/flintlock-axe.jpg)
..that has been enchanted as an item of power to shoot holy saw blades.
:P
Like buzz saw blades?
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This argument is trending a bit too much to realism.
Can I use this, please?
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Having played GURPS for well over a decade now... I hate crunchy! I would only go with stresses and such for a weapon under 2 circumstances:
1) The weapon is used in a non-standard way. Such as using your AK-47 to parry an axe swing from a big guy.
2) It otherwise would make sense. A catch all reason for odd things.
I would not track this sort of thing for every weapon all the time. An alternative is to just skip the stress tracking for the weapon and go right to consequences for the weapon in the same manner one works out a concession.
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Having played GURPS for well over a decade now... I hate crunchy! I would only go with stresses and such for a weapon under 2 circumstances:
1) The weapon is used in a non-standard way. Such as using your AK-47 to parry an axe swing from a big guy.
2) It otherwise would make sense. A catch all reason for odd things.
I would not track this sort of thing for every weapon all the time. An alternative is to just skip the stress tracking for the weapon and go right to consequences for the weapon in the same manner one works out a concession.
Well, if you don't like crunchy, don't use "Fuego" for prolonged periods of time, a quick blast should just leave 'em crispy. And "Arctis" is right out as well.
Seriously though, for in-game play I would generally handle such a situation by taking into account what is occurring. If the player is using a gun to parry a Weapons attack from another character, or a Fists attack from a character with Inhuman Strength or better, that I'd put an Aspect on the gun, something like "I'm a gun, not a billy club!" which would last until the character has a chance to have someone check/fix the gun. In the mean time, I would have 'fun' with the Aspect, and the player would have the chance to get Fate points, and/or spend them to keep using the gun anyway. In short, I would basically just skip a weapon stress track altogether if what happens could damage the weapon.
-Cheers
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I'd probably let someone parry with a fairly basic weapon (break open shotgun, revolver, musket etc) without anything happening, but if someone mishandles a complex weapon like an SMG or precision rifle I'd add an aspect to it. An automatic weapon would get something I could compel for a jam and a precision weapon I would compel against an aimed shot.