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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: InFerrumVeritas on April 22, 2011, 01:34:51 PM

Title: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on April 22, 2011, 01:34:51 PM
Okay, I've got a quick question that I wasn't able to find an answer for.  I know that if you have Sponsored Magic you may only take Refinement for Item Slots.  However, say you have Seelie Magic AND Evocation.  Now, because you have Evocation, you can obviously take Refinement for Specialization.  My question is thus: Can you, if you have Evocation, take Specialization in "Summer" as your element?
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: evileeyore on April 22, 2011, 01:53:53 PM
I would say no.  You're taking the Refinement for Evocation which does not have Summer as an Element.


However if you were a Changeling or Fae spellcaster... then your Evocation might not work the same as a "mortal" Wizards.
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: MijRai on April 22, 2011, 05:28:25 PM
Actually, the Seelie and Unseelie Magics give a user with evocation the Un/Seelie element. So yes, you can put your refinement to Seelie.
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: Belial666 on April 22, 2011, 06:26:26 PM
Exactly. Typically, a Sponsored Magic will either work as an existing evocation element or add a new element to the evocation you are using. In addition, all sponsored magics can "supercharge" evocation; even if you don't have specialization/foci in their element as an evoker, IF you can justify a spell to fit within their purview, you can use your Evocation bonuses anyway.
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: Tedronai on April 23, 2011, 01:49:55 AM
Actually, the Seelie and Unseelie Magics give a user with evocation the Un/Seelie element. So yes, you can put your refinement to Seelie.

No, they give you CHANNELING with the Court's 'element'.  Which is slightly different.
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: Belial666 on April 23, 2011, 02:12:27 AM
Yes, but you can supercharge Fire spells with Summer Fire and thus use your Fire specializations for Summer spells. Effectively you can use Summer Fire with specialization bonuses, no problem.
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: MijRai on April 23, 2011, 02:51:49 AM
No, they give you CHANNELING with the Court's 'element'.  Which is slightly different.

Quote from: Your Story, 291
In addition, Winter magic may be used as an
element for evocation
The entry for Seelie magic is all but the same.
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: Tedronai on April 23, 2011, 04:27:32 AM
Evocation is more than just the Power, it is also the PROCESS.
Quote from: YS181
Channeling. You are able to use Evocation
as described on page 249,[...]

Quote from: YS287
In practice, this is essentially equivalent to
taking the Channeling and Ritual abilities
priced
at 2 refresh apiece, with the sponsored source
of power replacing the usual specialized focus

(this is why Seelie Magic is priced as a 4 refresh
ability).
(bolding added)
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: MorkaisChosen on April 23, 2011, 09:21:45 AM
Except that text is for if you have Seelie Magic but not Evocation.
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: Tedronai on April 23, 2011, 10:02:46 AM
My mistake, I flipped 'with' and 'evocation' in MijRai's post, which significantly changed the meaning of his post.
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: InFerrumVeritas on April 23, 2011, 11:09:45 AM
Yay, not quite a consensus.  Now I don't feel as dumb for asking.

The way I read it was, if you do not have Evocation, then it's like you have Channeling.  But, if you've got evocation, it's just another element you can use (plus the other sponsored magic stuff) and therefore you can specialize in it.
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: evileeyore on April 23, 2011, 11:45:20 AM
Evocation is more than just the Power, it is also the PROCESS.(bolding added)
Which is where I'm coming from.

If you're a mortal Wizzard with Evocation and Seelie Magics, you know Evocation and all it's trappings.  Evocation does not confer knowledge of or power over Seelie Magic.  That is coming from your Sponsor.

Now granted I'm not likely to be a hard @ss if the player has Evocation and Seelie Magic and is relatively in concert with their Sponsor.  So I'd probably allow a Refinement specialization in that case.
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: Belial666 on April 23, 2011, 01:38:28 PM
Guys, guys, the relevant passage on Sponsored Magic + Evocation is in p.288 and it is this one;
Quote
...if you already practice evocation,
you may use a sponsored power source to
“supercharge” an element you’ve already specialized
in. So Summer magic might combine with
the air element to give a “breath of life” effect;
hellfire might combine with fire to produce,
well, hell-fire; and Kemmlerian necromancy
might combine with the spirit element to inflict
potent visions of death upon a victim. This sort
of combination allows the spellcaster to use his
existing evocation specialization bonuses
with
the new power source.


So yes, you can use your specializations with sponsored magic just fine.
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: MorkaisChosen on April 23, 2011, 02:29:54 PM
So yes, you can use your specializations with sponsored magic just fine.
True, but that's not quite the issue. The question is whether you can have a Summer specialisation in Evocation; that only addresses using the other Summer magic benefits with a normal-element specialisation.
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: devonapple on April 23, 2011, 04:05:19 PM
The question is whether you can have a Summer specialisation in Evocation; that only addresses using the other Summer magic benefits with a normal-element specialisation.

Good point. It could easily become a blanket specialization that one could justify using for pretty much all of one's spells.

I'd allow it, but I can see why others wouldn't.
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: sinker on April 23, 2011, 04:41:59 PM
I can see thematic reasons to allow it. Specializations representing one getting better at handling energies it would make sense for someone to be able to get better at drawing energy from the sponsor or at melding those energies with their own. Mechanically I could see a player getting out of hand with something like that but as long as they aren't stockpiling summer specializations while laughing maniacally then I think I'd allow it.
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: Tedronai on April 23, 2011, 11:08:58 PM
The question is whether you can have a Summer specialisation in Evocation; that only addresses using the other Summer magic benefits with a normal-element specialisation.

In the absence of my previous little mis-reading, I've got a quote for this one, too.

Quote from: YS287
If the character is already a practitioner
of evocation and/or thaumaturgy, the source
gets “tacked on” to his existing spellcasting abilities
as an extra area of focus[...]

Which would seem to be a reference to Evocation's 'You Know What You Know' trapping, and/or Refinement's 'Add a new element' (sub?)trapping.


Just don't allow them to stack 'Summer' specializations with those in other 'elements'.
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: MorkaisChosen on April 23, 2011, 11:38:11 PM
Certainly one reading of the rules. I'm a little leery of allowing it, as Sponsored Magic is rather broader than any one other Element, in most cases- Summer can do most of Fire, plus all of Biomancy, plus other renewaly stuff like fixing a crack in a rock; but at this point it's me saying "I'd prefer not to," not "Rules say no."
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: sinker on April 24, 2011, 03:52:43 AM
Just don't allow them to stack 'Summer' specializations with those in other 'elements'.

You can't stack specializations anyway, regardless of their source. You use the highest specialization that applies.
Title: Re: Specialization and Sponsored Magic (w/ Evocation) Clarification
Post by: Tedronai on April 24, 2011, 03:55:32 AM
Which is why you shouldn't let a player pull that sort of thing.