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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Chris_Fougere on April 21, 2011, 12:45:53 PM

Title: Running Water and Distance
Post by: Chris_Fougere on April 21, 2011, 12:45:53 PM: Is the effect of running water mitigated at all by the distance above it one travels? Our city has river that divides in right in half (which does allow us to easily set up opposing courts with predefined territories bounded by the river), with two vehicle bridges and a walking bridge. If a Wizard goes from one side to another via a bridge is he fracked? The bridges are probably 40-50 feet above the water.
Title: Re: Running Water and Distance
Post by: Taran on April 21, 2011, 12:48:47 PM: I'm not sure he'd be fracked. In one of the books Harry was in the water and stood on a rock to give himself more connection with the magic...so he wouldn't be grounded out as much.
Title: Re: Running Water and Distance
Post by: Chris_Fougere on April 21, 2011, 01:15:24 PM: Quote from: Taran on April 21, 2011, 12:48:47 PM
I'm not sure he'd be fracked. In one of the books Harry was in the water and stood on a rock to give himself more connection with the magic...so he wouldn't be grounded out as much.

I had forgotten about that. Maybe I`ll use the distance as a modifier to the strength, that seems a simple way to do it.
Title: Re: Running Water and Distance
Post by: sinker on April 21, 2011, 04:19:44 PM: It really depends on how you want to play it. In addition to the grounding force of flowing water, rivers are also natural boundries or thresholds. A divider that big and important sounds like a pretty powerful boundary. But you can ignore that completely if you like, or since the bridges are naturally points of crossing then perhaps the boundary is mitigated. Perhaps there are people who can invite you across or circumstances where it's not so hard.

Of note even if you want to play the boundary to it's full effect I wouldn't say the wizard is screwed. He'd have a hard time casting spells across it and a hard time maintaining spells (on himself or on the side he is no longer on) right when he crossed, but enchanted items are fine, no issues casting spells on the other side, no issues to any standing thaumaturgy on either side (I.E. wards and the like). The one issue I can see is if you're trying to track someone across the bridge or similar in which case I'd have them cast the spell initially with the boundary's effect already there. A wizard could even prepare for that by setting the shifts higher knowing that the river might interfere.
Title: Re: Running Water and Distance
Post by: devonapple on April 21, 2011, 04:26:31 PM: This sort of question has been a challenge to really tie down. That said, one particularly nasty creature in the canon had no problem flying away across a Great Lake. Also, Harry seems to have no problem with magic if he has a boat beneath him. Then again, tracking spells appear to have trouble "flying" as it were, and seem to travel on the ground, so they are particularly vulnerable to water barriers.

If it helps, here is my thread on the subject:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23721.0.html
Title: Re: Running Water and Distance
Post by: evileeyore on April 21, 2011, 06:13:51 PM: Quote from: devonapple on April 21, 2011, 04:26:31 PM
This sort of question has been a challenge to really tie down. That said, one particularly nasty creature in the canon had no problem flying away across a Great Lake. Also, Harry seems to have no problem with magic if he has a boat beneath him. Then again, tracking spells appear to have trouble "flying" as it were, and seem to travel on the ground, so they are particularly vulnerable to water barriers.

If it helps, here is my thread on the subject:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23721.0.html

This. Harry has been shown to cast magic across and whilst over running water. Being immersed is a problem and non-LOS spells have trouble crossing runing water.
Title: Re: Running Water and Distance
Post by: Chris_Fougere on April 21, 2011, 08:19:21 PM: Quote from: devonapple on April 21, 2011, 04:26:31 PM
This sort of question has been a challenge to really tie down. That said, one particularly nasty creature in the canon had no problem flying away across a Great Lake. Also, Harry seems to have no problem with magic if he has a boat beneath him. Then again, tracking spells appear to have trouble "flying" as it were, and seem to travel on the ground, so they are particularly vulnerable to water barriers.

If it helps, here is my thread on the subject:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23721.0.html

Thanks! The thread there was really helpful. I love the modifiers based on how submerged the victim is etc.

I was thinking about it and in our city there are only three bridges across it, two vehicle and one walking bridge. The walking bridge is a fair bit closer to the water then the other two. I envision the walking bridge being a sort of meeting place, taking advantage of its proximity to the running water. Also the route someone would take to avoid supernatural tails, though because of the limited number of crossings the river has its kind of predictable for one's enemies.
Title: Re: Running Water and Distance
Post by: Wyrdrune on April 22, 2011, 09:10:43 AM: We have a similar situation here in Vienna, where the Danube flows right through the city.

Up until now we had no need to "define" the rules, but as GM I would rule following:

* As it is a mighty river it would make it nigh impossible (or very hard) to cast spells or rituals from one half of the city across the river.
* There are a few islands in the river. If a spell starts and ends on the same island without crossing the river somehow it is unaffected. Casting from the island across the river is hard but not as difficult as across the whole river, as it have only to cross it half.
* A magical flyer should have no problem when he stays reasonable high enough. (May also depend on the tides, moon phase, quantum flux, GM-thingamabobs depending on what the story needs.)
Title: Re: Running Water and Distance
Post by: Set Abominae on April 25, 2011, 10:52:19 PM: Well, I'm sure there are certain Butcher'esque takes on the subject of water, but taking from what I've absorbed from various other myths and fiction, contact with water is more likely to diffuse magical energy than mere proximity. Think of it like electricity. The charge hits the water and goes everywhere at once. Without that direct contact, it's probably less of a problem.

On the subject of bridges, I'd imagine they could be dealt with pretty easily. Bridges are significant objects. People put a lot of practical and metaphorical importance on them. They bridge gaps, make crossing normally impossible divides possible, serve as meeting places, places of suicide (sadly), and carry with them a lot of spiritual significance as a result. Especially particularly large, famous bridges like the Golden Gate that often stand for something greater than their mere utility. That kind of spiritual significance likely makes them magically present locations, and thus they probably allow the transit of magic and its practitioners without much trouble at all (maybe one of the reasons trolls favor them, a comfortable magic friendly area to hide out and snatch "lunch").

So from that standpoint, I'd say magic on or across bridges is fair game.

Now magic in and close (like shoreline close) to running water is perhaps more problematic. In water for obvious reasons, being close maybe being effected by the amount of water in the air (though that's more scientific than anything) and the spiritual significance of shores where crossings become something one has to consider the likelihood of accomplishing (most people aren't going to attempt swimming a big river). The physical importance of such a boundary, and the divide it represents likely have a spiritual weight of their own, making magic across it harder to focus. I would think that especially in horrible weather with high tides, all of that active energy and water would conceivably make it much worse, even with storms usually being a source of power. It would be, to me, kind of like squirting a water-gun into a hurricane. It wouldn't accomplish much.
Title: Re: Running Water and Distance
Post by: devonapple on April 25, 2011, 11:22:50 PM: Quote from: Set Abominae on April 25, 2011, 10:52:19 PM
... being close maybe being effected by the amount of water in the air (though that's more scientific than anything)

I hadn't thought of that. Such a phenomenon - if we follow that logic - would definitely be present around fountains, where there is usually enough ambient moisture to drop the nearby temperature.

One could also attribute to bodies of water a gravity-like grounding effect, such that magical energies which persist close enough to the water for long enough tend to get drawn in and grounded that way.
Title: Re: Running Water and Distance
Post by: Ren on April 26, 2011, 12:12:38 AM: As a side note related to Bridges, don't forget that some creatures can't cross running water, even over a Bridge. I'm referring to the short story where Harry had to cross a bridge to stop a Troll from crossing.
Title: Re: Running Water and Distance
Post by: Set Abominae on April 26, 2011, 12:35:13 AM: Quote from: devonapple on April 25, 2011, 11:22:50 PM
I hadn't thought of that. Such a phenomenon - if we follow that logic - would definitely be present around fountains, where there is usually enough ambient moisture to drop the nearby temperature.

One could also attribute to bodies of water a gravity-like grounding effect, such that magical energies which persist close enough to the water for long enough tend to get drawn in and grounded that way.

Aye, not unlike how rain in the books tends to fizzle magic, though to a lesser degree.
Title: Re: Running Water and Distance
Post by: Set Abominae on April 26, 2011, 12:36:32 AM: Quote from: Ren on April 26, 2011, 12:12:38 AM
As a side note related to Bridges, don't forget that some creatures can't cross running water, even over a Bridge. I'm referring to the short story where Harry had to cross a bridge to stop a Troll from crossing.

There is that, although I imagine that is more of a situational thing specific to the nature of certain supernatural bugaboos.

[EDIT] After a quick review, what evileeyore said.
Title: Re: Running Water and Distance
Post by: evileeyore on April 26, 2011, 12:42:55 AM: Quote from: Ren on April 26, 2011, 12:12:38 AM
As a side note related to Bridges, don't forget that some creatures can't cross running water, even over a Bridge. I'm referring to the short story where Harry had to cross a bridge to stop a Troll from crossing.
If you mean "Restoration Faith" the "prequel" short story... that's not what happened at all.
Title: Re: Running Water and Distance
Post by: Set Abominae on April 26, 2011, 12:44:44 AM: It does however make one wonder about the supernatural powers of various aquatic threats like the fomors and fae like Greenteeth.

I suppose that's probably do to their powers being rooted in their natures, but (minor spoilerishness ahead)
(click to show/hide)
the fomors didn't seem to have much issue with using hokus pokus around water.

Magic is a squirrelly thing.
Title: Re: Running Water and Distance
Post by: evileeyore on April 26, 2011, 01:01:32 AM: Quote from: Set Abominae on April 26, 2011, 12:44:44 AM
It does however make one wonder about the supernatural powers of various aquatic threats like the fomors and fae like Greenteeth.

I suppose that's probably do to their powers being rooted in their natures, but (minor spoilerishness ahead) the fomors didn't seem to have much issue with using hokus pokus around water.

Magic is a squirrelly thing.

It's been put forth that those types of magic weilders derive some of their power from water itself and find themselves weakened (their magic anyway) the further from it they are.
Title: Re: Running Water and Distance
Post by: Set Abominae on April 26, 2011, 01:18:33 AM: Quote from: evileeyore on April 26, 2011, 01:01:32 AM
It's been put forth that those types of magic weilders derive some of their power from water itself and find themselves weakened (their magic anyway) the further from it they are.

That would be a reasonable conclusion.

In Constantine it was stated that water was a universal mystical "lubricant" (paraphrased), and water has long been associated in many superstitions with various mystical properties and beings (like the Japanese Kappa).