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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Jancarius on April 15, 2011, 11:11:31 PM

Title: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: Jancarius on April 15, 2011, 11:11:31 PM
So in my campaign, as you may or may not be aware, the party is currently under attack by a White Court vampire, because in their backstory, 2 of the party members killed his brother.   While party members other than these 2 are just targets of opportunity to the vampire (except the WcVirgin who he's trying to get to turn), the party basically has decided that they don't want to kill the WCV, because their worried all his 'friends' will show up and the situation will just get worse.

They've come up with a plan to try and trick Antonio (The WCV) into thinking at least one of hte party members is dead, but they've pretty much realized it won't work, cause he's been spying on them for weeks and generally has the drop on them.  He has 8 skilled mercenaries with him (he started with 10, 2 have been removed one way or the other).  He's framing the eccentric artist member (Lucian) of the party as a pedophile (extended social conflict), but will settle for just killing the changeling sorceress (Melody) if it seems like she'll escape into the Nevernever or something. 

I think they should go with one of the following plans: Pool their parties SIGNIFICANT social power together and try and 'take out' Antonio socially.  For a white court, that's a pretty humiliating blow, and the less other WCV respect him, the less resources he has to draw on. Once he's no longer able to pay his mercenaries to shadow the party around town (and provide SIGNIFICANT gun muscle), the party should be a match for him in a fight if they just want to kill him at that point.  OR they could try and 'find a bigger fish' which is a strategy the Kincaid-expy (Sheridan) keeps veto'ing hard, because I feel OOC he's like "Oh noes, supernatural debt" more than what I think his IC reaction should be "Oh shit, I might DIE if I don't get help"  OR they could ask the Wardens for help (game takes place right before Changes) or even just the mortal police. 

The problem is, they don't seem to be coming up with any of these ideas.  They just feel stuck.  How do you suggest I push them in the right direction without giving them a multiple choice option list?
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: BumblingBear on April 15, 2011, 11:44:14 PM
Introduce an NPC who is an "expert" or a family member of one of the PCs.

Let that NPC be your voice.

Simple.

I personally would just kill the WCV if I were a player in your campaign.  Why argue with a monster who is trying to frame a friend?

If I die, I may as well go out doing something I believe in. 
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: fantazero on April 16, 2011, 02:49:18 AM
Introduce an NPC who is an "expert" or a family member of one of the PCs.

Let that NPC be your voice.

Simple.

I personally would just kill the WCV if I were a player in your campaign.  Why argue with a monster who is trying to frame a friend?

If I die, I may as well go out doing something I believe in. 
Yep kill him
or try and get a favor of one of his underlings.
Would you let your players hire an Private Eye or an assassin?
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: fantazero on April 16, 2011, 02:50:38 AM
or get rid of the White Court Vampire, people get hit by trains all the time.

See if there is a member of you group willing to "Die" to take out the Whitecourt vampire so they can play a backup character *But keep this secret from the rest of them*
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: noclue on April 16, 2011, 03:51:12 AM
Have you suggested to your players that if they don't get active and start going for what they want, your NPC is going to steamroll them?

Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: Eldritch Donut on April 16, 2011, 04:15:10 AM
Why not get the players involved in WC politics. The guy they're up against must have enemies in the court. If they could hook up with his rival, they'd have some support for either a social or physical confrontation.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: sinker on April 16, 2011, 05:26:40 AM
If you wanted to go for a straight brute force solution (I.E. kill the bastard) then you could always have a different Whampire come to the party and say "Look, you guys don't like this guy and I don't like this guy. You take him out and I'll make sure that there's no political backlash." That would totally be the norm for the Whampires to find their opponent's enemies and then drive them to take action.

If you wanted to do it the other way though you can simply remind them that there are more options for taking someone out than punching them in the face (I.E. Physical combat) or you could bring the social fight to them. Perhaps the Whampire feels that he has sufficiently broken them and summons them "To talk" or you could focus on his smear campaign as the first round of social combat and then ask them "Your turn, what do you do?"
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: Jancarius on April 16, 2011, 05:55:18 AM
I'm glad other people see it as "Why don't you just kill him?" to the same degree I do.  None of them have thought of trying to find enemies of his in the WC.

As for the steamroll thing, I think they feel like if they engage him, they'll be steamrolled.  Not entirely unfair I suppose, the Kincaid-expy did get nearly taken out by just 2 of his mercenaries when he was unprepared, but htat's without his armor or anything more advanced than a heavy pistol, but why they haven't even tried, I dunno.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: noclue on April 16, 2011, 06:11:45 AM
As for the steamroll thing, I think they feel like if they engage him, they'll be steamrolled.  Not entirely unfair I suppose, the Kincaid-expy did get nearly taken out by just 2 of his mercenaries when he was unprepared, but htat's without his armor or anything more advanced than a heavy pistol, but why they haven't even tried, I dunno.

Are they possibly right? Are there flaws in his plans that the PCs can exploit, or are they correct that they'll get steamrolled if they go after him?
Do the players always approach challenges with this amount of trepidation, or is there something about this game that is setting this off? DFRPG gives you lots of ways to go after stuff that's important to you, but it can be a bit daunting to find a way forward if you don't see how.

I think a OOC chat is in order. We were having some issues in our game with the players sitting on our hands waiting for an "opening" and the GM waiting for us to open something up. We fixed it by talking about expectations. We players decided to commit to going for what the characters want. The GM warned us that his NPCs were done playing nice and were going to be providing opposition. Since that chat, my character agreed to a favor for Aurora that threatened to send Winter and Summer into pitched warfare, summoned Titania and convinced her to buy my marker from Aurora in return for me finding her missing Knight, released an elder god of trickery and knowledge from his imprisonment at the hands of both courts. Another player went from vanilla mortal to Red Court Infected in order to save his niece's soul. Then we defeated a black magic wielding Warden and his warden henchmen who have been hunting us throughout the campaign, transported him to the mesopotamian version of hell and killed him there, while trapping his death curse in a magic bottle to avoid the sundering of the gates of hell.

Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: BumblingBear on April 16, 2011, 08:54:33 AM
Are they possibly right? Are there flaws in his plans that the PCs can exploit, or are they correct that they'll get steamrolled if they go after him?
Do the players always approach challenges with this amount of trepidation, or is there something about this game that is setting this off? DFRPG gives you lots of ways to go after stuff that's important to you, but it can be a bit daunting to find a way forward if you don't see how.

I think a OOC chat is in order. We were having some issues in our game with the players sitting on our hands waiting for an "opening" and the GM waiting for us to open something up. We fixed it by talking about expectations. We players decided to commit to going for what the characters want. The GM warned us that his NPCs were done playing nice and were going to be providing opposition. Since that chat, my character agreed to a favor for Aurora that threatened to send Winter and Summer into pitched warfare, summoned Titania and convinced her to buy my marker from Aurora in return for me finding her missing Knight, released an elder god of trickery and knowledge from his imprisonment at the hands of both courts. Another player went from vanilla mortal to Red Court Infected in order to save his niece's soul. Then we defeated a black magic wielding Warden and his warden henchmen who have been hunting us throughout the campaign, transported him to the mesopotamian version of hell and killed him there, while trapping his death curse in a magic bottle to avoid the sundering of the gates of hell.



That sounds like a badass campaign!
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: noclue on April 16, 2011, 09:21:23 PM
That sounds like a badass campaign!

It has been completely badass! And totally an homage to Dresden with swings from dark comedy to just plain dark. My sorcerer's rituals are all about the fae. In the final battle, I spent a FP to reveal my "Prep" which consisted of a swarm of valley girl pixies led by my "friend" Lilly (of the Valley, get it?) who I had enticed with Orange Julius and Cinnabons to keep the gun mage busy. Swarm of Valleygirl pixies for the Block! Later, the gunshot Evil Warden used the power of his own bloody wounds to nearly take me out with black magic, giving me a Severe and Moderate physical consequences in that one move.

But, a few weeks earlier we nearly ditched the campaign because of the issues I mentioned above. Which is why I say to the OP, if the players are feeling that they can't succeed, you need to make them believe they can. There are so many tools at their disposal to get proactive, but only if they know what they want and go for it.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 17, 2011, 02:24:25 AM
You could just force an encounter. If you think they should just kill him, have him mug them on a street corner and fight to the death.

Of course, that's probably not in character. Here's something more plausible.

Antonio decides to finish off his frame job by appearing publically in court/on TV to denounce the character. Compel the players to stop him. They can either take him out socially (debunking his claims in front of the world) or physically (putting on ski masks and murdering him).
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: Lanir on April 17, 2011, 08:28:43 PM
Introduce an Alfred (yes, I'm going all Batman on you... don't worry, it'll be brief).

The qualifications for this character are simple. They have some reason to talk to the characters. You don't want to give answers? That's fine, this NPC isn't for that anyway. No, this one is to ask the right questions. If the right questions are going around IC then your characters will not only are they likely to jump onboard a plan your questions suggest, they'll also feel invested in it, a lot moreso than you'd get from just listing options for them.

The reason I use Alfred the butler as an example is because he's just kind of always there. You don't expect much from him as far as active plot development. He's a butler, which is like saying he's window dressing for the background. Every once in awhile when the writers need to introduce a moment where Batman starts thinking outside the box, they'll have Alfred talk to him and just ask the right questions and maybe make a few suggestive comments reminding him of where his priorities really are. If you don't have an NPC strategically placed to do this, make one. And don't be afraid to re-use him/her a little before the PC's feel totally stuck next time.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: Jancarius on April 18, 2011, 01:55:54 PM
That sounds like a really cool idea to me.  I'm not sure who I could use in that role though.  They don't trust anything Tarsiel says (the Denarian that one of the characters is carrying around the coin for, and another has a shadow of).  I guess I could try and get them to talk to the owner of the local accorded neutral grounds bar. 

I don't like the idea of Antonio just publicly attacking them.  He's already acting pretty in the open for a White Court, which I'm justifying by saying he's enraged over the death of his brother; I think appearing in person for a social denouncement might be too much.  Though... he might show up to the artists trial and start slamming the lawyer and defense witnesses with despair, or any particularly sympathetic seeming jurors.  And I'd let the party know: "The case against you seems flimsy, but with Antonio smashing these people emotionally, it seems like they might convict you."

Also with BB on this one, noclue, that sounds like a ridiculously awesome campaign.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: ways and means on April 18, 2011, 02:09:44 PM
I would just have another white court vampire use the party as a weapon against Antonio due to white court politics.  With the help of a WCV perhaps even Antonio's second in command (aide du camp) the party should be able to kill Antonio.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: sinker on April 18, 2011, 04:12:07 PM
Exactly what I was trying to suggest earlier. Have them play a part in the already shifting white court politics. Hell, if he's as emotionally compromised and unbalanced as you suggest then it's possible that the head of the house wants him dead for stirring up so much public attention. Ooh, that would be awesome (though entirely out of character for the head of the house to personally involve themselves) if the head actually showed up personally and wound up tying the party more tightly into the house politics.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: Lanir on April 18, 2011, 04:19:03 PM
If I wanted an NPC to show up and ask the right questions in the scenario you described I'd probably make it a fae linked somehow to Melody's parents (I'm assuming that neither of them would work for this themselves). Maybe an ally who's just trying to keep up to date and thought they'd better figure out what Melody was doing lately so she didn't become a wildcard and upset their applecart while they were plotting something. This would give them a reason to be curious about the current problems and ask interesting questions from a rather different perspective. But it wouldn't give them a reason to waltz in and fix everything and they could easily claim disinterest or lack of free time to implement a plan if the PCs push them to intervene. Something like "Dear, I came to you because you're a potential ally like your mother/father. What kind of ally would you prove to be if you start out by begging me to clean up your messes?"

You could probably do the same with a character loosely tied into anyone's background if the fae angle doesn't quite work for you. To use a similar angle you'd need the NPC to be a fairly political character who routinely plots well outside of the PC's normal sphere of influence. The parents (or whatever other tie-in you choose) don't have to be political themselves, just have a positive history with this NPC.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: toturi on April 18, 2011, 04:29:42 PM
Though... he might show up to the artists trial and start slamming the lawyer and defense witnesses with despair, or any particularly sympathetic seeming jurors.  And I'd let the party know: "The case against you seems flimsy, but with Antonio smashing these people emotionally, it seems like they might convict you."
Depending on the theme of the city, the courts may really be a Temple to Justice. And/or the judge could be a True Believer in Justice. And the vampire faces a Threshold against his using Incite Emotion on the jurors/witnesses.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: BumblingBear on April 18, 2011, 04:41:05 PM
Depending on the theme of the city, the courts may really be a Temple to Justice. And/or the judge could be a True Believer in Justice. And the vampire faces a Threshold against his using Incite Emotion on the jurors/witnesses.

Yeah... I would think that depending on how "in the know" a city is, there may be unique defenses like that.  There may also be something going on behind the scenes.

One of the themes from the casefiles is that servants of the White God work behind the scenes.  People may not always see what they're doing, but that doesn't mean they're not doing /something/.

I find this thread interesting.  My group is a bunch of bloodthirsty savages who like to kill everything I throw at them so far.  I'm half afraid that if I introduce a plot device like Mab, somebody will still attack her. :P
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: evileeyore on April 18, 2011, 07:38:52 PM
If I wanted an NPC to show up and ask the right questions in the scenario you described I'd probably make it a fae linked somehow to Melody's parents (I'm assuming that neither of them would work for this themselves). Maybe an ally who's just trying to keep up to date and thought they'd better figure out what Melody was doing lately so she didn't become a wildcard and upset their applecart while they were plotting something. This would give them a reason to be curious about the current problems and ask interesting questions from a rather different perspective. But it wouldn't give them a reason to waltz in and fix everything and they could easily claim disinterest or lack of free time to implement a plan if the PCs push them to intervene. Something like "Dear, I came to you because you're a potential ally like your mother/father. What kind of ally would you prove to be if you start out by begging me to clean up your messes?"

Nice...   ;D
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: Jancarius on April 18, 2011, 07:40:37 PM
I tend to try and de-emphasize the actions of the White God as much as possible.  I like to make sure it's clear he's just one of many being at that tier of power, the others being the Summer and Winter Mothers, the Goblin King, etc.

The city is our own town, not anything too major, but I do kinda like the idea of a True Believer in Justice being a judge.  

I know some of my players haven't read the Dresden books, but hte majority have, so it frustrates me when none of them think to try stuff like luring a WCV into a threshold area (though I suppose they may think he's just too smart to fall for it).
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: BumblingBear on April 18, 2011, 08:01:58 PM
I tend to try and de-emphasize the actions of the White God as much as possible.  I like to make sure it's clear he's just one of many being at that tier of power, the others being the Summer and Winter Mothers, the Goblin King, etc.

The city is our own town, not anything too major, but I do kinda like the idea of a True Believer in Justice being a judge.  

I know some of my players haven't read the Dresden books, but hte majority have, so it frustrates me when none of them think to try stuff like luring a WCV into a threshold area (though I suppose they may think he's just too smart to fall for it).

Yeah... I have a hard time relating to your players too.  I definitely would have killed him by now.

Hell, I'd have a hard time not killing a regular person who began a smear campaign claiming that I was a pedophile... much less an inhuman monster whom I know for a fact kills people to eat.

At the very least I'd be using my contacts or finding someone who has contacts to find someone else with a beef against the WCV.

I mean, unless this vamp is a wizard too, WCVs are really not all /that/ hard to kill.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: batmanjr on April 18, 2011, 09:34:57 PM
OOC chat will be the best option.

I'd ask them, "Do you have a plan or are there some pieces of information that you are missing to formulate a plan?  Are you happy with actions being taken against you and the party always reacting?  Will you eventually go on the offensive and deal with this guy....er....vampire?"

I like what another poster put up and that is get out in the open what the expectations are.  If you party knows full well that the NPC's have plans in place and are moving forward, they can either just be wall flowers or they can pick up their dice and play an active "roll" in shaping the group's Dresdenverse.

Having passive PC's would suck since they'd have no chance to ever get ahead.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: Becq on April 21, 2011, 02:50:36 AM
You mentioned that the party doesn't want to 'just kill him', because that might prompt another round of vengeance.  As a possible alternative (depending on relative power levels, etc) it might be viable for one of the party members to challenge him to a duel.  Or, better yet, to maneuver him (the WCV) into challenging one of the party members (probably one or both of the two that he hates).  This would probably be riskier than a standard fight, but would have the benefit of having the sanction of the Accords, and would shield the party from further recriminations.

Note that (again, depending on power mixes) challenging the WCV might be suicidal, as the WCV would probably pick 'emotions' as their choice of weapons, but if the WCV initiated the challenge, the party would get to choose the weapon...
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: noclue on April 21, 2011, 08:51:14 AM
You mentioned that the party doesn't want to 'just kill him', because that might prompt another round of vengeance. 

Another round of vengeance sounds awesome! You should compel them to kill him ;)
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: Jancarius on April 22, 2011, 05:13:49 PM
The party is at Refresh 7 Skill 28, so I think a straight up fight for any 1 v 1 of them would indeed be a suicide run for that character.  I have been having a chat with a couple of them, pretty much calling them out on being so passive.  I told them they should go to offense, because an immortal vampire has all the time he needs to pick them part as long as they aren't doing anything but reacting to his moves. 

What I would do in the party's situation is use social conflict to separate the mercenaries and Antonio.  The reason the Kincaid-expy is so wary is that 2 of the mercenaries nearly put him in the hospital (in fact, he was taken out the first time, but we discovered we handled grenades wrong so rerolled the combat).  I mean, Antonio has outright killed one of the mercenaries (the paintomancer had obtained some of his hair and was using it to track them), so it shouldn't be that hard for the party to use that to help these guys turn on the WCV.  They just aren't THINKING of it.  Plus, they have a sorceress and the Kincaid-expy whose got a couple grenades, so even if they want to just go in on assault, they can throw enough aoe power in there to down most of the mercs instantly. 
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: Roxy Rocket on April 22, 2011, 08:41:38 PM
Another round of vengeance sounds awesome! You should compel them to kill him ;)

The players sound way too reasonable about this threat. Harry does not respond with a game theory analysis of city politics. He smashes the threat or runs away. This guy is trying to ruin their lives and then kill them. Have them do something cruel and 'public' in supernatural terms. They have to make a Transgression.

Give the sorceress a ritual big enough to tear the demon out of the vampire's mortal soul. If she has to go into NPC territory to make it happen that's the price you pay, kinda like spending a death curse. She can always come back to hassle the party down the road.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: toturi on April 22, 2011, 11:58:25 PM
It seems to me that the situation has become un-fun for the players. They are looking for a way to neutralise their foe that doesn't allow the GM to use what they did as a plot hook to preserve the status quo or escalate the situation.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: Jancarius on April 25, 2011, 06:05:13 PM
@Toturi: Yes, that's exactly what the situation is.  They are desperately working to preserve the status quo without leaving a plot hook I can write with later.  Which is annoying at several levels.  One, because imperfect solutions are way more interesting than perfect solutions, and two, the fact that they're treating it like I have them backed into an impossible situation, when rather, it's merely impossible for them to come out smelling roses and dancing with bunnies. 

@Roxy: I don't agree with compelling in any form the sorceress to NPC herself.  One, I don't think the player would take it well (as discussed in another thread, my ex girlfriend is playing the sorceress, and things are especially tender between us at the moment because she is now dating another one of my players).  Two, I would say that compelling someone to NPC themselves is more or less like compelling them to die in most games. 

What the sorceress asked me if she could do was arrange some sort of amplifying field, in which her magic would be stronger than normal, and try and lure the vampire and mercenaries into that to fight.  It seemed like that should be possible, but I didn't know how to set up the mechanics at all.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: tymire on April 25, 2011, 06:15:49 PM
Quote
@Toturi: Yes, that's exactly what the situation is.  They are desperately working to preserve the status quo without leaving a plot hook I can write with later.  Which is annoying at several levels.  One, because imperfect solutions are way more interesting than perfect solutions, and two, the fact that they're treating it like I have them backed into an impossible situation, when rather, it's merely impossible for them to come out smelling roses and dancing with bunnies. 


Lol, sounds exactly what happens in most SR games.  Plan for 2-4 hours in game time.  Then at least 75% of the time someone will screw it up within 15mins of go time.  Think the main problem is that you gave them too much time.  I have found if you don't rush players or put them on a time table this stuff will happen if they are taking it seriously.

Quote
What the sorceress asked me if she could do was arrange some sort of amplifying field, in which her magic would be stronger than normal, and try and lure the vampire and mercenaries into that to fight.  It seemed like that should be possible, but I didn't know how to set up the mechanics at all.

If this doesn't scream scene/zone aspect I don't know what does.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: Wolfwood2 on April 25, 2011, 06:35:59 PM
@Toturi: Yes, that's exactly what the situation is.  They are desperately working to preserve the status quo without leaving a plot hook I can write with later.  Which is annoying at several levels.  One, because imperfect solutions are way more interesting than perfect solutions, and two, the fact that they're treating it like I have them backed into an impossible situation, when rather, it's merely impossible for them to come out smelling roses and dancing with bunnies. 

There's a few things here.  First of all, if they aren't enjoying something the solution isn't to keep forcing it on them until they learn to like it.  It doesn't work with spinach and it won't work with gaming.

Second, you've several times expressed frustration they don't start a long-term social conflict against this guy (something they may not even see as a possibility).  Well it only takes one side to start a social conflict, just like it only takes one side to start a physical conflict.  If you want a social conflict so much, why don't you start one?  Have the vampire guy engage to try and break up the group or whatever, and explicitly tell the players, "Okay, you're in a social conflict.  This is the first exchange.  The vampire just took his whack, and this is the goal he's seeking from the conflict.  Do you want to concede or fight back, and if you fight back, what is your goal?

I mean, if you thought your players were avoiding a physical fight, you could just have the bad guys show up and start shooting, right?  How is a social fight any different?
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: noclue on April 25, 2011, 07:14:19 PM
@Toturi: Yes, that's exactly what the situation is.  They are desperately working to preserve the status quo without leaving a plot hook I can write with later.  Which is annoying at several levels.  One, because imperfect solutions are way more interesting than perfect solutions, and two, the fact that they're treating it like I have them backed into an impossible situation, when rather, it's merely impossible for them to come out smelling roses and dancing with bunnies.

If only there was some way a GM could compel characters to make difficult choices in this game.

Quote
@Roxy: I don't agree with compelling in any form the sorceress to NPC herself. 

Ignore the NPC part and focus on the tempting the player with enough power to solve their problems, but with a price part. Figure out what price you do like and this can work nicely as a compel.


Quote
What the sorceress asked me if she could do was arrange some sort of amplifying field, in which her magic would be stronger than normal, and try and lure the vampire and mercenaries into that to fight.  It seemed like that should be possible, but I didn't know how to set up the mechanics at all.

Setting up a field sounds like some kinda ritual (or a summoning). Tricking the vamps to step into the trap sounds like either a Provoke using intimidate or some kind of compel on the Vampire's aspect. Their high concept includes hunger and arrogance. She could compel that to get them to come close.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: toturi on April 26, 2011, 02:09:05 AM
@Toturi: Yes, that's exactly what the situation is.  They are desperately working to preserve the status quo without leaving a plot hook I can write with later.  Which is annoying at several levels.  One, because imperfect solutions are way more interesting than perfect solutions, and two, the fact that they're treating it like I have them backed into an impossible situation, when rather, it's merely impossible for them to come out smelling roses and dancing with bunnies. 
Then why don't you give them what they want? You know what their idea of fun is. Is having your fun dependent on them not coming out smelling roses and dancing with bunnies?
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: Roxy Rocket on April 26, 2011, 03:03:26 AM
What the sorceress asked me if she could do was arrange some sort of amplifying field, in which her magic would be stronger than normal, and try and lure the vampire and mercenaries into that to fight.  It seemed like that should be possible, but I didn't know how to set up the mechanics at all.

Simple: She takes Refinements as Temporary Powers, the ritual zone is just an excuse. So any enchanted items or foci she builds or specializations she acquires using the refinements only work inside that zone. Think book five and the unicorn hair rope.

Temporary Powers cost one fate point per refresh of the power. If she took three ranks of refinement it would take three fate points. If she doesn't have the fate points she needs she could go into debt.

Make sure you and she know the magic system.

I'd say if they want to set up a fight just have them outline the situation they want. Skip all the scenes of preparation and tricking the vampire into their ambush you can. Go big, with lots of aspects on the scene and props to work with and so on. Make it happen somewhere big, like a church. If the fight goes hard enough maybe one of you can chase the vamp onto the roof and he can fall off like in The Crow or it can burn down with him in it or something.


I agree with giving the players what they want even when the rules say no. I don't agree with giving the players 'perfect scores,' but if that's their condition for playing it can't be helped. Give in. Give in really hard so the fun doesn't die an ugly little death.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: citadel97501 on April 26, 2011, 03:27:55 AM
Another option would be to let her do some Thaumaturgy Maneuvers that she can tag as she begins to caster her magic, I would suggest Ley Line Access, Hidden Binding Circle, stuff like that, remember there is nothing more terrifying than a wizard who comes prepared, which is one of the reasons you don't try to storm a Wizard's home, unless
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Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: Jancarius on April 26, 2011, 08:08:25 PM
@tymire: But a scene aspect can only be 'tagged' once, and then she's no better off than anyone else unless she spends fate points, correct?  Something that always bugs me a bit about some of the maneuver/scene aspects/Declarations is that sometimes it seems like there should be some more 'relative strength' on them... ie: Being blind and being off balance shouldn't have the same value.  A aspect that's harder to set up, like, say an amplified magic zone, seems like it should be always on.  Rather, I guess, it feels like the work they put into setting up a situation/aspect should pay off more than just "oh, I show up to the combat and apply maneuvers to the scene"

@Wolfwood: Actually, the vampire is already using a social conflict against the artist character, and if he succeeds, the artist is going to get convicted of being a child molestor/stalker (something along those lines).  It's just none of the 3 completely social oriented characters seem to realize "Hey, we could help out on this/engage in our own counter-campaign".

I do see your point about forcing the issue on them.  But @toturi: Yes, it kind of does.  I find it boring when the players have untainted successes that they didn't have to work their asses off to acheive.  And if I'm bored with the story I'm telling, I'm not having fun.  And further, them not coming out like roses is like a giant plot device engine to help my game move forward.  Conflict drives stories ya know?

@noclue: I'm still pretty iffy on compels (and I'm bad about handing out fate points too) cause I'm still so used to D&D where the DM controls everything that's not a PC and the PCs have absolute control over themselves unless magically controlled.  So I guess I feel like 'compel' to fight the vampire is taking away their choice.  Plus, the Kincaid-expy has enough FP to just buy out of it.  I do want to offer the players "and here's power with a price!" but they all seem SUPER gunshy of making any deals with things stronger than them.  I've suggested to them involving other vampires, the fairy courts, simply bigger badder creatures, etc, and they're all like "eeeeeeehhhh no."   

@Roxy: I really lik the idea of the field is a temporary power, I think that would be the best way to express it mechanically.  I did try and set them up for a big church shoot out last time, but they refused to engage, and Antonio wasn't interested in a big public fight for no gain (the paintomancer and sorceress were absent).
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: admiralducksauce on April 26, 2011, 08:17:54 PM
For aspects that you feel should hit harder than others, well, you can always compel them harder.  If someone's "Blind" then as GM, I'm going to compel as soon as I can with a stiff complication.  If they're "Off Balance", though, I'd just let that come out in play.  Let a character take advantage of that as they wish.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: Lanir on April 27, 2011, 12:09:50 AM
A quick caveat: This is starting to sound like something I've run into. So if I'm reading too much into some parts of what was said, I apologize. Take and use what you can. :)

Wow... Yeah, sounds like it is more of an OOC chat issue. Initially I was thinking more along the lines of a "give them a nudge and show them there's a path they can take" sort of issue you could solve with IC stuff. It sounds more like you and your players have some trust issues though. Maybe not huge ones, but they're big enough to cause some issues. If you're all thinking in D&D terms then this is easy to fall into.

1. Fate isn't as mechanically crunchy as D&D. So when a GM makes a scenario, they're making a story. To keep from having to constantly come up with new material, it's natural the GM wants to save something for next time. To kind of use your analogy, when everything is rainbows, roses and dancing bunnies, the story's over and the characters can be retired. If your players really want this then honestly you might as well give it to them but if it's a misunderstanding... keep reading.

2. When people sit down to game, there's an inherent agreement about what can be done. It's not something formal in most situations but everyone has expectations about what could or should be involved in a game and if things go well you all meet in the middle. Most of the time in D&D, the conflict is about whether the PCs have big enough numbers to do what they're attempting. In less crunchy, story-centric games the agreement about what kinds of conflict are of interest and what risk a player is willing to have their character undertake matters as well. Keep in mind these ideas also tie heavily into what motivates a PC to go on an adventure in the first place too.


It sounds like you and your players are disagreeing on the second point and it's being complicated by the expectations from the first point. To put it another way, you're trying to have a battle on grounds and using methods that they're inherently suspicious of because in D&D those things have a stigma of "the GM is screwing me over" attached to them. In this system that not only doesn't apply in most cases, but using your surroundings in clever ways and making allies is a legitimate way to handle problems. There's give and take as with any path to power. Basically what the players need to know is that the consequences of accepting a deal like that are going to be within their comfort zone. From what you've described I'm guessing they're so D&D-centric they don't have a comfort zone for this topic or they don't trust you enough. Maybe you can all talk and kick around some ideas to get jump start this area of the game. Don't be afraid to recruit them for ideas on what would be interesting opposition too. If they buy into your villain it should be easier to justify a rematch later.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: noclue on April 27, 2011, 06:08:38 AM
Being blind and being off balance shouldn't have the same value.  
kinda depends if you're trying to see something, or getting pushed over.

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It's just none of the 3 completely social oriented characters seem to realize "Hey, we could help out on this/engage in our own counter-campaign".
You might want to just tell them about this option. Also, compels!

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@noclue: I'm still pretty iffy on compels (and I'm bad about handing out fate points too) cause I'm still so used to D&D where the DM controls everything that's not a PC and the PCs have absolute control over themselves unless magically controlled.  
In DFRPG the players can make assessments and declarations to add things to the "everything that's not a PC" and the GM can use compels to exert some influence on the players. I think compels work best when the GM is playing to see what happens, rather than trying to force a particular thing. If they buy off the compel, cool. That says something about their character. If they take the compel, also cool. That says something else about the character.

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I guess I feel like 'compel' to fight the vampire is taking away their choice.  
If you always make sure that the player you're compelling has the FP to buy their way out of it, then they have choice. Don't compel them to fight the vampire. Compel them to make choices. They wrote their Trouble, so make it cause them trouble. They wrote their High Concept, so ask whether they're willing to follow their principals even if it's inconvenient and dangerous. Compel dramatic choices based on two aspects in conflict, and see which one they follow and which one they turn away from. Or Compel one of their aspects in a way that demands a revealing player choice, but leave them free to act however they see fit. Tell them the FP is there to say whatever they choose, it comes with consequences.

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Plus, the Kincaid-expy has enough FP to just buy out of it.
Awesome. His FP are your freedom. If he's sitting back on a mountain of FP, you should compel him into spending those FP to make character defining decisions.

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I do want to offer the players "and here's power with a price!" but they all seem SUPER gunshy of making any deals with things stronger than them.
 
Well, first put them in a position where they desperately need help if they're going to get what they want, then have the NPC offer them assistance.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: admiralducksauce on April 27, 2011, 06:59:09 PM
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Well, first put them in a position where they desperately need help if they're going to get what they want, then have the NPC offer them assistance.

It sounds like they DO need help if they're going to come out unscathed, and coming out unscathed sounds like it's what they want, and it sounds like Jancarius HAS offered them assistance but taking assistance from powerful monsters taints their "win" condition back down to where it's not what they want.

I think explicitly telling the social PCs that they can help is right on, though.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: @BCrosswood on May 03, 2011, 08:23:34 AM
If I were you I'd just move forward with the plot. If they want to pussyfoot around until one of the characters gets put in jail for sex crimes, let them. Knowing OOC that inaction has consequences will help keep this from happening in the future. AND it gives you more story to follow up on. Does the PC escape and take the party on the lam? Does the party have to get the governor to parden their friend somehow? I believe in setting timelines behind the scenes, so if nothing happens to delay effect X then effect X will happen in 5 days, etc.
Title: Re: Players have run out of ideas
Post by: Roxy Rocket on May 03, 2011, 04:24:08 PM
...If they want to pussyfoot around until one of the characters gets put in jail for sex crimes...
Stealing my brother's idea:

If they had good rapport and presence I'd open a session with their interview on a local morning talk show. Let them make a lot of jokes and win over the audience as a kind of 'your move now, WCV.' Then as soon as you get back stage or out the studio you 'meet up' with the other players and do that movie line exposition thing:

"Alright. That's done. Let's go kill this mofo."

And before that the other players could play the friendly opposition and you could play the hostile opposition. Whether it's the audience that's friendly and the interviewer is hostile, or the two hosts and other guest that are friendly and the audience is hostile or a mix of things it's up to you.

You could get really wacky and Mission-Impossible (verb) the job. Have all the guests and hosts actually be the other players and when you get outside do the mask tear off thing, drive to a storage garage or something and release the Real Hosts and Guests.


Jokes and wacky schemes to diffuse the unwanted plot are much better than 'teaching a lesson' because you've already got problems with gaming group cohesion. Lowest common denominator is best.