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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Richard_Chilton on April 10, 2011, 08:36:38 PM
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From another thread:
(+1) The Catch: Swords of the Cross
I have a problem with this being worth anything, one that goes beyond the swords' power to be a catch for everything (so shouldn't be a specific requirement).
Yes, it can be researched - but once this catch is discovered it really can't be exploited. There is no 1-800-Need KoC number to get in touch with one of the three welders of those blades. The +1 from being able to research a catch should apply to common things (iron, holy symbol, etc), not unique items.
It's like looking up a catch and finding that the toughness can be bypassed by:
"Tears shed by Lady Q. Lady Q died three hundred years ago and no tears are known have been preserved"
Technically that would serve as a catch, but since it can't be exploited it should be a +0 catch, not plus one because there's a record of it... Not unless the PCs can somehow duplicate the effects of Lady Q's tears and there are clues of how they can do it. Knowing that "unique, one of a kind" thing can hurt a monster is useless if that thing is so rare that the catch can't be exploited.
To back this position I'll cite a published example. White Court Vampires - their catch is known among those who hunt them but their catch is hard to exploit - so is only worth +0.
Richard
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The difference is a denarian with a catch of the sword of the cross would be a +1 because sooner or later a knight of the cross will show up whereas a plus 0 catch a knight of the cross would never show up.
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Something like "+1 Dark Fate" or "+1 Hunted" would work better for that situation.
A catch isn't "something is sooner or later going to happen". A catch (worth points) is a way to defeat/bypass someone's powers. If it can't do that then, like the White Court Vampire's catch, it should be worth 0.
Fairies have Iron for their catch, not because sooner or later Iron will show up but because people can use Iron against them. You can put a nail in your desk drawer so when that impossibly perfect woman comes in you can challenge her with it.
Black Court Vampires have Garlic for a catch, not because sooner or later Garlic will show up but because people can use Garlic against them. If you're stuck in a food court of a mall and have to deal with a Black Court Vampire then you can raid the condiment tray for some garlic powder.
Having a "sooner or later a one in two billion guy will walk to you" thing just doesn't fit with the published examples.
Richard
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The ways catches are broken down is via knoledge and scarcity so a catch which is very scarce should still get the knoledge bonus.
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Except that someone with usage-access to one of the Swords of the Cross doesn't NEED to research this Catch (because the swords have the capacity to satisfy ANY catch), and someone that DOES need to research it will be almost guaranteed not to be able to access, use, or even 'call in' one of the Swords/Knights (because there are only 3 in the world, they impose strict requirements, and the Knights aren't exactly listed in the yellow pages)
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and the Knights aren't exactly listed in the yellow pages)
Who you gonna call?
Anyway. As far as I understood this, the catches, as everything else have to be viewed storywise, not realitywise. The Knights of the Cross are bound to show up wherever a Denarien is doing whatever it is he does. Yes, there are only 3 of them, so it might take them a while, but they are going to show up. But the catch is still rare, and even if there is a Knight of the Cross, he is going to be the only one who can satisfy the catch, you can't arm the whole group with holy swords. That is why the catch is valued +1: very rare, but still actively beatable.
In comparison, a WCV catch "true love" is nothing, that can actually be brought against them as a weapon. Sure, someone that is touched by true love can hurt a WCV, and is save from being hurt by them, but you can't call in the "true love force", and there are no carebears to shower them in rainbows or anything. All in all, that is why the WCV catch is valued 0: very rare and only really beatable by chance.
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the swords have the capacity to satisfy ANY catch
Provided the wielder pays a Fate point to activate the ability for the scene - at which point the enemy will use their inhuman or higher speed to flee the scene faster than the Knight can follow then return once the effect has worn off and the Knight is out of Fate points. On the other hand, a catch of "Sword of the Cross" means the swords can wound the creature without the FP expenditure.
Smart opponents can exploit a PC's resource expenditure, be it Fate points, expendable items or situational advantages, and come back when those resources are used up.
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Who you gonna call?
Anyway. As far as I understood this, the catches, as everything else have to be viewed storywise, not realitywise. The Knights of the Cross are bound to show up wherever a Denarien is doing whatever it is he does. Yes, there are only 3 of them, so it might take them a while, but they are going to show up. But the catch is still rare, and even if there is a Knight of the Cross, he is going to be the only one who can satisfy the catch, you can't arm the whole group with holy swords. That is why the catch is valued +1: very rare, but still actively beatable.
In comparison, a WCV catch "true love" is nothing, that can actually be brought against them as a weapon. Sure, someone that is touched by true love can hurt a WCV, and is save from being hurt by them, but you can't call in the "true love force", and there are no carebears to shower them in rainbows or anything. All in all, that is why the WCV catch is valued 0: very rare and only really beatable by chance.
But you still have to have a moment, like Richard did, where you get this skeptical look on your face and say, "Okay, that's a good one. Pull the other leg, it's got bells on it."
Okay. First, if you're making the argument that a Denarian can have a catch that is satisfied only by the Swords, and nothing else, and it's valid, in your eyes, that the Catch is worth enough to give a +1 rebate on the logic that the Swords are bound to come up because of the vagaries of the story, then why, using that same logic, did you not make it worth a +2 or even a +3? If it's going to be as common a menace to the Denarian as you're implying, using that logic means that it should be worth that much. If it isn't, then why?
Second, getting back to the original post, giving an impossible or even neigh-impossible catch is something of a dick move on the GM's part, unless it's only apparently impossible (giving the monster a refresh rebate for it, however, is still a dick move); the apparently impossible is something that, at first blush, seems to be straight up impossible (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,22962.msg993795.html#msg993795)... and then the lightbulb goes off and the PCs start planning.
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Given the degree of disagreement regarding the appropriate value of a WCV's Catch, they're really not the best choice for an example on which to base an argument on these boards.
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Smart opponents can exploit a PC's resource expenditure, be it Fate points, expendable items or situational advantages, and come back when those resources are used up.
I'd be wary of haveing an enemy that had the meta knowledge of fate points influence on the world.
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First, if you're making the argument that a Denarian can have a catch that is satisfied only by the Swords, and nothing else, and it's valid, in your eyes, that the Catch is worth enough to give a +1 rebate on the logic that the Swords are bound to come up because of the vagaries of the story, then why, using that same logic, did you not make it worth a +2 or even a +3? If it's going to be as common a menace to the Denarian as you're implying, using that logic means that it should be worth that much. If it isn't, then why?
Because even though it is going to show up, there are still only ever going to be 3 around. If something is very rare, but once it is obtained, you can arm every member of your group with it, it is going to be more effective. And even if a Knight shows up, once he is down, nobody else can rightfully pick up that sword.
Technically that would serve as a catch, but since it can't be exploited it should be a +0 catch, not plus one because there's a record of it... Not unless the PCs can somehow duplicate the effects of Lady Q's tears and there are clues of how they can do it. Knowing that "unique, one of a kind" thing can hurt a monster is useless if that thing is so rare that the catch can't be exploited.
Clever players might find their way around that.
For example: How about the tree outside the house, that her late husband planted, and she would stand there and weep besides that tree, and the essence of those tears are now in that tree, and for example a spear made from a branch, or a resin-"tear" from that tree is enough to satisfy the catch.
And once this catch is figured out, the Players might be able to provide a sample to each player, and suddenly the impossible catch is gone.
I guess what I am trying to say is this: is there a Knight of the Cross among your players, or are you going to provide a Knight, when your Players face the Denariens? In that case, the catch has a high probability to be met and therefore should at least refund a little bit. Are you planing on not having the catch met at all: Then there is nothing the character can gain out of his catch, it just isn't going to come up, so if he is immun to magic, he is immun to magic, no way around that. Or you want to do a whole mini-campaign out of finding a match for the catch, in which case you might even go around and change the catch midsession from +0 at first (as in: there is effectively no catch) to +1 (there is one (or a few) single ancient artefact, that can hurt this guy, but it has to be exactly that) to +2 (there is something that can hurt this guy, and we have to discover the secret first and get the rare ingredient first, but then we can create weapons to fight him).
The Fae catch for another example is fairly well known and is very easy to come by, so it is very likely that if you put up a fae as an enemy, the players are going to load up on some cold iron before a big fight, so the catch is going to be met almost always, which explains its pretty high refund value. If on the other hand, you are playing a campaign of changelings deep inside faery, and leaving faery is not an option, for this campaign, the catch is pretty much nonexistant and therefore worth nothing.
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Provided the wielder pays a Fate point to activate the ability for the scene - at which point the enemy will use their inhuman or higher speed to flee the scene faster than the Knight can follow then return once the effect has worn off and the Knight is out of Fate points. On the other hand, a catch of "Sword of the Cross" means the swords can wound the creature without the FP expenditure.
Smart opponents can exploit a PC's resource expenditure, be it Fate points, expendable items or situational advantages, and come back when those resources are used up.
And how, exactly, does a character go about researching whether or not they'll be needing to spend a fate point?
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I've seen a few catches I'd argue against being used, or at least alluded to, on the forums. High weapon values and swords which can already bypass catches are a couple of the least fun in my opinion...but it's all up to the individual groups. That flexibility is one of FATE's attributes I value!
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From a purely story based perspective, the Knights of the Cross ALWAYS show up where they are needed, and there IS a 1-800 hot line that is open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, even holidays, and even for people without access to a phone. It's called prayer.
From a gameplay perspective, having a catch like that on a monster you are throwing at the party should mean that you have a Knight of the cross in your game (as a PC or NPC). Not giving your party access to a Knight of the Cross makes you as much a jerk as does sending faeries to mercilessly stalk your characters then declaring that all the iron in the world has vanished (And actually meaning it, not simply putting it as an interesting angle that your players have to figure out why all the iron in the world is missing and find where it has gone, which would actually make for an interesting idea for a game).
It might be difficult to get a Knight of the Cross to come to your aide, It might be easier to just stock up on mega power and try to smash the thing outright or find some other way around it, but the opportunity is there.
As the GM, you can control or destroy the balance of such by your whim, you can cut the characters off from the item or you could give it to them in abundance. The game can never truly balance for something like that so they stick with +1
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From a purely story based perspective, the Knights of the Cross ALWAYS show up where they are needed,
With that 'need' being defined by the inscrutable power of God (the GM)
and there IS a 1-800 hot line that is open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, even holidays, and even for people without access to a phone. It's called prayer.
Which, from a planning, game balance, or practical perspective, is absolutely indistinguishable from leaving the matter to taking no action whatsoever, as the only way to distinguish a granted prayer from a declined prayer is by waiting for the opportunity for intervention to pass. If they show up, they show up, if they don't, they don't. When their arrival is arranged by 'coincidence' or 'feeling', they don't generally get the opportunity to call ahead.
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You know, something I consider when I make a catch that the book doesn't look at as much is how often it should show up. To me, when someone is giving themselves a +0 catch it means that the only time it should really come up is at a dramatic moment that really has meaning to the character. When someone has a +1 or +2 catch then they expect it to come up more often. If someone has a catch of Swords of the Cross at +1 then they're telling me that they expect to come up against a knight of the Cross occasionally. Whether that makes sense in the real world doesn't matter because this unrealistic scenario (at least one of the three knights of the cross showing up on a semi-regular basis) is what the story is about.
Now if you're talking about whether it's fair to throw a Denarian at a group that has no way of tripping that catch then no, that's not really fair. However that's not necessarily a reason not to do it. One can create a great story that starts with the protagonists getting their assess handed to them, so long as there's a way for them to succeed later.
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With that 'need' being defined by the inscrutable power of God (the GM)
Hence the GM's ability to create and destroy game balance by their very whim!
is absolutely indistinguishable from leaving the matter to taking no action whatsoever, as the only way to distinguish a granted prayer from a declined prayer is by waiting for the opportunity for intervention to pass.
Except in game terms where True Believers have the ability to say a prayer and then roll Conviction for ANYTHING! Then the success or failure is dependent upon the roll of the Dice or the Whim of the GM!
Contacts Roll.... get me a damned Knight of the Cross!
When their arrival is arranged by 'coincidence' or 'feeling', they don't generally get the opportunity to call ahead.
Hey, Same difference to me so long at they are there!
If they show up, they show up, if they don't, they don't.
And either way the GM's job is to provide an interesting story! If the players are in it to be terrified and unable to defeat a huge monster then that's awesome for them! Don't let ANYTHING I say get in the way of your fun guys! But if not, someone needs a way to get rid of that evil dude!
To me, when someone is giving themselves a +0 catch it means that the only time it should really come up is at a dramatic moment that really has meaning to the character.
I think I was trying to say something like that in my post and I lost track in my ramblings... anyway, AGREE! If it shows up AT ALL!
I think that last post pretty well sums up the argument without debating the forest for the trees. Denarians and Knights are a bad example case because they have a divine intervention thing built into back story.
For me it comes down to ARE THE PLAYERS HAVING FUN. If they really are then EVERYTHING IS OKAY! If they aren't well maybe it's time to change some things!
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Catches come in 2 parts. Both are worth points.
An extremely rare catch that is common knowledge will have that knowledge come up.
A common catch that is relatively unknown will have that come up too, even if that mook simply grabbed whatever's handy and swung.
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You know, something I consider when I make a catch that the book doesn't look at as much is how often it should show up. To me, when someone is giving themselves a +0 catch it means that the only time it should really come up is at a dramatic moment that really has meaning to the character. When someone has a +1 or +2 catch then they expect it to come up more often. If someone has a catch of Swords of the Cross at +1 then they're telling me that they expect to come up against a knight of the Cross occasionally. Whether that makes sense in the real world doesn't matter because this unrealistic scenario (at least one of the three knights of the cross showing up on a semi-regular basis) is what the story is about.
This is the Truth.
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You know, something I consider when I make a catch that the book doesn't look at as much is how often it should show up. To me, when someone is giving themselves a +0 catch it means that the only time it should really come up is at a dramatic moment that really has meaning to the character. When someone has a +1 or +2 catch then they expect it to come up more often. If someone has a catch of Swords of the Cross at +1 then they're telling me that they expect to come up against a knight of the Cross occasionally. Whether that makes sense in the real world doesn't matter because this unrealistic scenario (at least one of the three knights of the cross showing up on a semi-regular basis) is what the story is about.
Now if you're talking about whether it's fair to throw a Denarian at a group that has no way of tripping that catch then no, that's not really fair. However that's not necessarily a reason not to do it. One can create a great story that starts with the protagonists getting their assess handed to them, so long as there's a way for them to succeed later.
As they say a million and 1 chance happens 9 out 10 times