Beast Change is a pretty awesome power, mainly because it lets you rearrange your skills, allowing for a "social" mode and "combat" mode.
Has anyone played a character that used Beast Change but wasn't a were-form? How about a Minor Talent whose only power is Beast Change? I imagine they'd take on a beastial appearance when they change but not actually become an animal. Maybe flavor it as being tied to an animal spirit but not being a true shapeshifter?
Or perhaps it's possession by a being with a different set of skills and knowledge.Exactly, obviously one can invent house rule as one wished, but beast change involves an actual change into an actual animal. That's more than a flavour thing, since changing into an actual beast has significant drawbacks like robing you of your ability to speak, possibly to cast magic and it tends to attract unfavorable attention at mundane cocktail parties. Beast change without the actual beast change is a far more powerful ability that effectively increases the number of skill points available to the character by a huge margin. At -1 refresh it's ludicrously overpowered compared to other powers and stunts that in some way gives you access to additional skill points and there'd be virtually no reason for any character not to take it.
Or perhaps it's simply the best way you can think of for representing some kind of magical skill enhancement(with, obviously, certain drawbacks).
Although by this point, I think I'm talking less about Beast Change and more about the Skill Shuffle trapping of it.
Exactly, obviously one can invent house rule as one wished, but beast change involves an actual change into an actual animal. That's more than a flavour thing, since changing into an actual beast has significant drawbacks like robing you of your ability to speak, possibly to cast magic and it tends to attract unfavorable attention at mundane cocktail parties. Beast change without the actual beast change is a far more powerful ability that effectively increases the number of skill points available to the character by a huge margin. At -1 refresh it's ludicrously overpowered compared to other powers and stunts that in some way gives you access to additional skill points and there'd be virtually no reason for any character not to take it.YS p79 Do lycantropes physically change their form?
Go reread the beast change rules againHow about you just say whatever it is you think I missed?
YS p79 Do lycantropes physically change their form?Nope, but then they don't have beast change. At least not in the PDF, I don't have the actual book nearby.
How about you just say whatever it is you think I missed? Nope, but then they don't have beast change. At least not in the PDF, I don't have the actual book nearby.No, they do not, I was pointing out one example of how Shapeshifting can happen solely in the mind. But I realise that the example isn't quite relevant to your post I quoted.
Exactly, obviously one can invent house rule as one wished, but beast change involves an actual change into an actual animal. That's more than a flavour thing, since changing into an actual beast has significant drawbacks like robing you of your ability to speak, possibly to cast magic and it tends to attract unfavorable attention at mundane cocktail parties. Beast change without the actual beast change is a far more powerful ability that effectively increases the number of skill points available to the character by a huge margin. At -1 refresh it's ludicrously overpowered compared to other powers and stunts that in some way gives you access to additional skill points and there'd be virtually no reason for any character not to take it.
Loup Garou have beast change but only someone with a very limited understanding of what a wolf is would call a Loup Garou a wolf beyond semantics. That would be like saying a minatour is a bull because it has horns though given the use of beast change for a Loup it would be reasonable to use beast change for any transformation into something monsterous or beastly including for hilarity sake the beast from beauty and the beast.My point was mainly about trying to use it purely for for the skill-change without any actual shape-change. Personally I think using it for something with functional hands and/or speech is questionable, but a minotaur isn't that unreasonable, a pure skill-swap with no shape-change or changing into another human IMO is.
Exactly, obviously one can invent house rule as one wished, but beast change involves an actual change into an actual animal. That's more than a flavour thing, since changing into an actual beast has significant drawbacks like robing you of your ability to speak, possibly to cast magic and it tends to attract unfavorable attention at mundane cocktail parties. Beast change without the actual beast change is a far more powerful ability that effectively increases the number of skill points available to the character by a huge margin. At -1 refresh it's ludicrously overpowered compared to other powers and stunts that in some way gives you access to additional skill points and there'd be virtually no reason for any character not to take it.
My point was mainly about trying to use it purely for for the skill-change without any actual shape-change. Personally I think using it for something with functional hands and/or speech is questionable, but a minotaur isn't that unreasonable, a pure skill-swap with no shape-change or changing into another human IMO is.
My point was mainly about trying to use it purely for for the skill-change without any actual shape-change. Personally I think using it for something with functional hands and/or speech is questionable, but a minotaur isn't that unreasonable, a pure skill-swap with no shape-change or changing into another human IMO is.
I pretty much agree with this, and it's supported by the rule that your social and mental skills can't be higher when in beast-form. It's clearly intended to put you in a form that is more animalistic, but that doesn't have to be an actual animal.
Were-Parrot/Crow/Raven (speech).Can crows and ravens speak? To be honest though I didn't think about parrots, that could give you speech within the rules. Parrots aren't very good in a fight though so that eliminates one of the primary draws on the Beast Change power. It is a possibility though.
Were-Monkey/Chimp/Gorrilla (sign language/writing/opposable thumbs).Fair enough, I'll concede that you can in fact get some kind of functional hands (though I'm not sure how good monkeys are with their hands, I think they're less agile than human hands, but I could be wrong).
I can't imagine why a wizard would not be able to cast magic after shapeshifting, given that shapeshifting is itself magic.Because magic usually requires speech and tools and few beast can do either and none can do both. It's not flat out prohibited to have a fireball slinging werewolf or were-parrot, but you might need a gracious GM.
Furthermore, unlike, say, Living Dead, there are no social penalties for Beast Change(the changes are "only ... cosmetic").Of cause there are social penalties (or in some case bonuses). You turn into an animal and that will affect how people react to you. As for the only cosmetic changes that refers to not getting free superstrenght or free claws, so that's a bit out of context.
Finally, True Shapeshifting gives you the ability to use infinitely many skillsets without requiring the beast part of it. The fact that you can rearrange your skills however you want, whenever you want, is more than enough to justify the increase from -1 to -4.Yes, true shape-changing allows you to shift into human forms, Beast change however does not.
and at that point you punch them in their girlfriend
@Kerberos:It says that you turn into a beast, therefore you turn into a beast and can't speak, unless it's a parrot. Even if you think the text in the RPG is open to interpretation we know that Werewolves can't speak from the actual books.
All negative effects of Beast Change should be handled as compels.
The power does not say that it prevents spellcasting, speech, etc. Therefore it does not, unless circumstances (and aspects) dictate otherwise.
It just says that you turn into a beast. Humans are arguably beasts.No, humans are animals, beast are "any nonhuman animal, especially a large, four-footed mammal." Besides if humans qualified as beast there'd be no reason for the true shape-shifting power to specify that "You may take on nearly any
If you think that the power is undercosted, you may well be right. However, your solution of endless uncompensated compels does not improve matters.I don't think it's undercosted - I think you're misinterpreting the power. You shouldn't get free fate for being unable to speak in eagle form, anymore that you should get free fate for being unable to fly in human form.
The definition of beast varies. Many (perhaps most) say nonhuman animal, some just say animal.Even if that was correct, we can see from the phrasing of the true shape-shifting power that the Dresden RPG uses the standard definition.
However, Beast Change can turn you into things that don't exist. There's no reason that you can't turn into a centaur or dragon form with it, and such things might be able to speak.It's disputable whether those truly count as beasts, though certainly you could argue for it. I think I've been fairly clear in distinguishing between my opinion (that speech and functional hands are a bit fishy) and the clear fact that the power (as written) does no allow you to change into another human.
My basic point is this: powers do not do anything that they do not say they do. Beast Change does not say that it disables you in such ways. Therefore it does not.And my point is that some things don't need to be said, particularly not in a story driven system such as this one. And of cause we can see in the books that my interpretation is correct. Werewolves simply cannot speak.
1. I really hate it when people use the novels in this sort of discussion. Just a pet peeve of mine.
At one point he moans something "I'm supposed to be superman - why can't I do this?".
This has me thinking of the British mini series Jykell. It's a new take on the Jykell/Hyde thing, involving a descendant of Jykell - or maybe a clone of one - with genetics replacing the potion.
The Hyde in that one was as amoral as a child. Strong, fast, but lacking life experiences to ground him. At one point he moans something "I'm supposed to be superman - why can't I do this?".
It's a mini series panted with shades of grey - if you added magic then Harry wouldn't be out of place there.
Richard
Despite arguments from the novels irritating people, I just thought of some great cannon to prove that beast change allows change into a human.(click to show/hide)
That said, while I believe it is RAW that a human can turn into a human... it's kind of lame.
So in a campaign I was gming, if someone wanted to take this power to turn into a human, I would require that they change something significant... probably gender :evil:. Depending on the setting, shockingly neon hair and different colored skin would work too.
::shrug::
Haven't seen that one, how does it stack up to the Sherlock series? A modernization of Sherlock Holmes set in modern time, and echoing/updating lots of quotes and references to the original A.C. Doyle works. Am in love with that series, and cant wait to see what happens next. (they only did three double length episodes for season one)
Despite arguments from the novels irritating people, I just thought of some great cannon to prove that beast change allows change into a human.Fool Moon relatedThat said, while I believe it is RAW that a human can turn into a human... it's kind of lame.(click to show/hide)
So in a campaign I was gming, if someone wanted to take this power to turn into a human, I would require that they change something significant... probably gender :evil:. Depending on the setting, shockingly neon hair and different colored skin would work too.I'd probably be inclined to take a harder line than that, but then it depends on the circumstances. If it was being used to get a bunch of free skill point while avoiding any of the inherent drawbacks to turning into a beast that's one thing, if it didn't feel exploitative I'd probably allow it even though I don't think the RAW allows it. The game is clearly meant to be customized by the players if they feel like it.
::shrug::
1. I really hate it when people use the novels in this sort of discussion. Just a pet peeve of mine.It's you privilege to ignore the novels of cause, but I think they provide useful context. As it happens the RPG supports my position as well. Under the wereform template it says that:
2. I view werewolves not speaking as a compel. If they buy it off, then their inability to speak poses no problem and they get their point across anyway.Obviously some communication is possible without speaking. I don't think I'd grant a compell for those instances where it doesn't, but YMMV
3. That you cannot change into another human is not a clear fact. It might (or might not) be the best interpretation, but it isn't a clear fact.It's a clear fact that it says beast. It's a clear fact that humans don't met the normal definition of beast save when the word is used metaphorically. It's a clear fact that the true shape-shifting ability only a few pages later clearly separates beasts and humanoids and explicitly and separately permits the latter. Is it possible that this is just a gigantic mix-up? Sure, anything is possible, but there's absolutely nothing to indicate it.
4. The wording of True Shapeshifting proves nothing. This is not a mathematical treatise: it's a game rulebook. The terminology can be fuzzy.
TL; DR: This is not a question that has a clear answer. Letting people turn into people isn't a houserule, it's an interpretation of the rules. And your seeming belief that these things are intended as balancing factors for Beast Change is very questionable.
Quick question here on the Skill Shuffle trapping itself, actually, making sure I'm getting this right... or if I've been doing it wrong the entire time:
1. Does the shuffle allow for a completely different skill list between the different forms? I.e. one form having no fists, and the other having high fists? Or do both forms have to have the skill(s) in question and they are merely swapped around in ranking?
2. Does the skill shuffle occur each time the power is activated, i.e. could a were-form choose to have high stealth after one transformation, but high fists after he changes to human and back again? Or is a shift between two skill sets that are both locked until a milestone is reached?
Maybe what we need to do is cobble together a new rule/power, similar to beast transformation, that would account for two consciousnesses occupying one body. Only available to humans, and including thing Like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Call it Alter Ego, and give it several levels to choose from.Here's a simple way to houserule the most extreme version of this (that is, the less controllable MPD version):
Wouldn't beast change and modular abilities work for this more simplyOnly for powers and skills. If you want a totally different personality (Jekyll and Hyde), I'd expect you'd want different aspects, too.