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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: admiralducksauce on April 07, 2011, 03:29:56 AM

Title: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: admiralducksauce on April 07, 2011, 03:29:56 AM
Hey all!

It's quickly approaching time for me to threaten my group again, and I've decided to go with one PC's nemesis.  The specifics of what or who it was were left vague, just something bad he encountered in Afghanistan that turned the PC's unit on each other.

I'm thinking warlock, geared towards mental domination and stuff, and just had a quick question.  Is mind controlling, say, everyone in a bar (call it a zone) just a matter of enough Evocation shifts to Take Out the people with a +2 shifts for a zone area of effect?  That the Taken Out effect being "you're all mind controlled thralls and do what I say now" is enough to whip up some instant minions for this bad guy?
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: MijRai on April 07, 2011, 03:32:39 AM
You would need to do it with Sponsored Magic to enthrall them at the speed of Evocation. You are correct, Taking them Out or giving them a good consequence would be all you really need to do.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: BumblingBear on April 07, 2011, 06:19:46 AM
I think a really powerful consequence invoked for effect would work on mooks.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: admiralducksauce on April 07, 2011, 11:20:56 AM
You would need to do it with Sponsored Magic to enthrall them at the speed of Evocation. You are correct, Taking them Out or giving them a good consequence would be all you really need to do.

I'm not sure why one would need Sponsored Magic to slap someone with a mental blast and say that their mind is broken and they're a slavering thrall once they're Taken Out.  Is specifying that kind of result simply not within Evocation's purview?
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: Belial666 on April 07, 2011, 11:45:40 AM
While evocation can do mind-affecting spells through maneuvers and you could potentially "break" someone by attacking their mind with a spell dealing mental stress, a complicated, lasting effect such as making them a thrall is the purview of the Psychomancy type of Thaumaturgy.

That said, Kemmlerian Necromancy allows psychomancy spells via evocation, and so do Hellfire, Soulfire and Outsider Magic.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: DFJunkie on April 07, 2011, 12:23:39 PM
Personally I would limit Evocation to graceless, momentary effects.  For instance, the entire bar could be whipped into a howling mob and sent to attack the PCs or given some similar simple command, but for fine control you'd need Thaumaturgy and time.

The reason I'd make that ruling is that Evocation is generally a "straight line" effect.  Move energy from point A to point B and achieve the desired result.  "You want to kill this person" would fall into Evocation IMO, but nothing more complex.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: UmbraLux on April 07, 2011, 12:45:22 PM
For more ephemeral affects you might use a mental block. 

A mental veil wouldn't be limited to sight.  It could as easily affect emotional or conceptual perception....
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: admiralducksauce on April 07, 2011, 01:49:55 PM
Cool.  An evocation maneuver that could be compelled would work well enough for most cases.  I kind of want to see if this guy can work without the "cheat" of Sponsored Magic, though, so bear with me a little longer as I explain my plan. :)

Warlock walks into a bar (ouch!).  Warlock drops an area-effect evocation (or multiples, it doesn't matter for our example) to Take Out everyone in the bar.  Just knock 'em out or leave 'em standing and stunned, again, it doesn't matter.  They're Taken Out and in a fashion compatible with evocation.

NOW our Warlock sets about a psychomancy ritual to turn these stunned bystanders into his ensorceled servants (say, changing their High Concept?).  What does that ritual look like?  Do I need to Take them Out a second time, thus requiring some shenanigans on the level of a Weapons-Grade Entropy Curse or the Heart-Exploding Spell?  Or is the complexity far, far lower since the victims aren't resisting?
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: DFJunkie on April 07, 2011, 02:30:22 PM
Quote
NOW our Warlock sets about a psychomancy ritual to turn these stunned bystanders into his ensorceled servants (say, changing their High Concept?).
  That might actually be overkill.  I mean, sure, if he wants the entire bar to be his servants indefinitely he could go that route, but if all he wants is a group of rough thralls for the short term he'd just need to place an aspect on them.  There's a lot of room for negotiation and interpretation in Thaumaturgy, but IMO changing a high concept would only be necessary if you want to change the very core of a person long term.

Quote
Do I need to Take them Out a second time, thus requiring some shenanigans on the level of a Weapons-Grade Entropy Curse or the Heart-Exploding Spell? Or is the complexity far, far lower since the victims aren't resisting?
The latter.  Taking them out with Evocation obviates the necessity for all of those shifts, he can move directly to the effects.

One last thought.  I would not permit a ritual, no matter how complicated, to twist more than one person's high concept at a time.  Each change would have to be personalized, as it is effecting the very core of what that person is from, for instance "Outlaw Biker" to "Loyal Muscle of [NPC]." 

Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: BumblingBear on April 07, 2011, 02:46:24 PM
  That might actually be overkill.  I mean, sure, if he wants the entire bar to be his servants indefinitely he could go that route, but if all he wants is a group of rough thralls for the short term he'd just need to place an aspect on them.  There's a lot of room for negotiation and interpretation in Thaumaturgy, but IMO changing a high concept would only be necessary if you want to change the very core of a person long term.
The latter.  Taking them out with Evocation obviates the necessity for all of those shifts, he can move directly to the effects.

One last thought.  I would not permit a ritual, no matter how complicated, to twist more than one person's high concept at a time.  Each change would have to be personalized, as it is effecting the very core of what that person is from, for instance "Outlaw Biker" to "Loyal Muscle of [NPC]." 



This.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: ways and means on April 07, 2011, 02:51:36 PM
This seems to me to be what kemmlerian necromancy is made for first you area of effect psycomantically wipe all of the bars occupants of thier personality (area of effect attack with the taken out concequence of becoming brainless puppets) then you direct your puppet with a kill command (area of effect manouvre). Then you hope that the PC kill your puppets (perhaps you attache a bomb to one of them just to be sure) so you can bring them back as zombies to attack the PCs again.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: DFJunkie on April 07, 2011, 03:06:32 PM
Quote
This seems to me to be what kemmlerian necromancy is made for first you area of effect psycomantically wipe all of the bars occupants of thier personality (area of effect attack with the taken out concequence of becoming brainless puppets) then you direct your puppet with a kill command (area of effect manouvre). Then you hope that the PC kill your puppets (perhaps you attache a bomb to one of them just to be sure) so you can bring them back as zombies to attack the PCs again.

Long way to walk to achieve the same effect of 1) Warlock blasts the bar with AoE attacks that inflict mental stress until everyone in it is taken out, describes the taken out result as "stupefied and open to manipulation," which IMO is a very reasonable result, 2) prepares a ritual that will, perhaps, inflict the "you hate the following people and will do everything in your power to kill them" involving pictures of the PCs.  For added fun he can use some of the bar's whiskey in the ritual, force feeding each of the patrons a shot as the vector of the ritual.  Same effect, but no Sponsored Magic required, and instead of being brainless and simple each person will attempt to kill the PCs to the best of their own ability rather than relying on the Warlock for orders.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: sinker on April 07, 2011, 05:32:50 PM
You know, I just had a thought, and everyone's going to be galled at me, but consider this. Mechanically a spell is a spell is a spell right? Makes no mechanical difference whether it's a 4-shift fireball or a 4-shift wind blast or a 4-shift fissure. So if you just want to skip the actual enthralling and just assume that he is for some reason spectacular enough to pull that off on the fly, what's to say that the description of his attack spells is simply him directing a mob of enraged people. A 4-shift "Howling mob" attack spell if you will. Just a thought. I certainly wouldn't suggest this for a PC (obviously the amount of practice one would need to get this good at this would not be PC friendly) but it might be interesting for a NPC villain. And of course if you want the PC's to stumble on his control ritual then this isn't the way to go, but if you want quick and dirty mind magic directed (indirectly) at the players, BAM.

Now that I'm thinking about it that could also be a really cool direction for a white court vampire to go. Take channeling and simply run it as a much greater ability to control others through your emotional mind whammy. A rage Whampire throwing enraged mobs of people at the players, a fear Whampire starting a stampede, a lust Whampire dragging the players into a crush of writhing bodies.... Interesting thoughts.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: DFJunkie on April 07, 2011, 06:17:09 PM
I don't see why you think that would gall people, it's a very interesting thought IMO and not a bad way to model an attack by an undifferentiated mob of people, none of whom are particularly dangerous in their own right, but when considered as a mass are potentially deadly.  On the other hand, if a Warlock has some time to plan ahead I imagine there are more complex and effective ways to use such a crowd, since the downside is that unless you allow casters to add persistence to Evocation attacks it would be a one-and-done sort of thing.  Given that exchanges are about 30 seconds that might not be a real problem though. 
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: sinker on April 07, 2011, 07:59:33 PM
Meh, it's not like the mob is used up in an attack. You could theoretically use the same mob in a different attack the next exchange, or for a block or maneuver.

Now I'm thinking about interesting interactions between using people as spells and other people's blocks/attacks. If one person throws up a wall of fire to block and the warlock throws people at it... Or if the warlock is using people to block and you start throwing attacks at him...

Also people tend to dislike my more abstract and unorthodox ideas, thus the preface.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: DFJunkie on April 08, 2011, 02:25:26 AM
I like that sort of thing myself. 

I wasn't saying the crowd would be used up, but that the stress point would be.  It isn't that I don't like the concept, but since you have to assume NPCs are at least partially aware of game concepts like stress (Harry can't stop talking about how tired spellcasting makes him) that they'd avoid less efficient forms of attack.

If anything the crowd surge would be a much more effective block, something for a hasty getaway rather than a direct physical attack.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: devonapple on April 08, 2011, 03:05:00 AM
There seem to me to be two desired effects:

1. A clever and narratively compelling way of causing stress/blocking/etc. an opponent.
2. A quick way to set up a situation in which an opponent is taking stress/being blocked by multiple entities which must be dealt with separately - not to mention delicately so as to not violate a Law of Magic.

I think the *intent* of the original challenge was to replicate option 2. Which is not to say that I believe option 1 to be undesirable.

Option 2, to get the full desired effect, would require EvoThaum (presumably by Sponsored Magic), and a lot of shifts. A Thaumaturgy Ritual *could* be set up ahead of time to do something similar (and has been done in the fiction), but it would have to target something which would sympathetically link everyone in the bar/restaurant/etc. to the ritual.

An in-between option would be to use EvoThaum to produce a series of Maneuvers to place multiple instances of the sticky Aspect "Ensorcelled Minion" which could be free-tagged to supplement other actions, including:

Invoke for a bonus to damage, explained as the minion helping make the opponent more vulnerable
Invoke to make it possible for the Villain to place a Block using Presence, explained as the minions doing to work.
Invoke as a Compel against a Wizard's high concept, forcing the Wizard to choose between harming a mortal and letting the villain go.

This would reflect a temporary plot effect that would not last beyond the scene.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: sinker on April 08, 2011, 07:32:42 AM
Seems to me the original intent was to create A) a NPC Warlock villain, so lawbreaking really isn't an issue nor is strict RAW, and B) to model mind control with evocation. I was simply suggesting that you skip the creation of the thralls and jump right to the point that matters, I.E. the conflict between the PCs and the bad guy. But if he wants to have the PCs stumble onto this ritual midway through then that's something else.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: admiralducksauce on April 08, 2011, 11:13:57 AM
I like the one-two punch of softening up a crowd with Evocation and then laying a compellable aspect on them with a (now greatly reduced complexity) Thaumaturgy ritual - whether that ritual is done normally or at Evo speed through Sponsored magic isn't so important to me at the moment.  In this way it's a lot like the Mind Fog spell in the book.

In play, of course if the Warlock needs minions offscreen, he can just have them.  I 1) wanted to double check such a thing was possible so as to have an excuse ready for "How did this bastard turn the whole town on us?" and 2) what it'd realistically take to do such a spell in combat.  Having minions ready to go for the PCs is one thing.  Being caught offguard and having to flee to somewhere there are crowds, trying to turn them into fodder to cover your escape on the fly?  That's entirely different.... and it sounds like it'd be a lot easier to just give him Outsider magic or Kemmler-vision.

I also am okay with changing a High Aspect being done one-on-one.  With that in mind, that options seems much more useful for people like the mayor, the town sheriff, and a threat to any PCs who might get captured by this guy.  Sometimes those kind of changes to your character are a more terrifying threat than death.

As for using "throngs of people" as the flavor description for an attack or block evocation, I think that's cool.  I think it'd be more like "the strip mall-goers suddenly reach out for you, grabbing at you and holding you back, then, just as suddenly, they relent and look around confused."  Like the Warlock slapped 'em with a quick "Stop those guys!" directive but didn't make it stick.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: stitchy1503 on April 08, 2011, 03:19:02 PM
I was always under the impression that you could make very rough thralls with Evocation, renfields are spose to be made by beating the persons brains into submission, that sounds very evocationy. Also I wonder why the book relates corpsetakers mind attacks to kemmlerite necromancy...psychomancy really has nothing to do with necromancy.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: admiralducksauce on April 08, 2011, 03:22:30 PM
I think it's because Corpse-Taker was a Kemmlerite, so you figure maybe her mind attacks are part of that forbidden lore.  It also makes sense from a POV if you think like controlling a corpse is only a few steps from controlling a living person.  It's thematically similar enough to me that I personally didn't think it was weird either in the novel or to read that in the rules about Sponsored magic examples.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: ways and means on April 08, 2011, 03:29:56 PM
kemmlerite necromancy is necromancy created by kemmler, kemmler being kemmler if it is magic and against the rules of magic he probably used it and took it further than anyone had done before.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: DFJunkie on April 08, 2011, 03:49:49 PM
Quote
I think it's because Corpse-Taker was a Kemmlerite, so you figure maybe her mind attacks are part of that forbidden lore.
Second.  The fact that Kemmler himself was killed a few times would suggest that he had mastered the body switching trick that Corpsetaker used, probably to a greater extent even.  However, I don't think that Corpsetaker's mental attack on Harry was necessarily derived from Kemmlerian Necromancy.  It was a direct mental attack, albeit a particularly powerful and adroit one.  Yes, there's a bit about how Corpsetaker drew in power in a way Harry was unfamiliar with, but I'm pretty sure all of its magic was dark and spooky at that point.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: Belial666 on April 08, 2011, 05:31:26 PM
Kemmlerian Necromancy specifically includes doing psychomancy at the speed of Evocation. So those mindswitch spells that were far too complex/powerful magic for Evocation and too fast for Thaumaturgy? Kemmlerian Necromancy.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: DFJunkie on April 08, 2011, 05:38:15 PM
Quote
Kemmlerian Necromancy specifically includes doing psychomancy at the speed of Evocation. So those mindswitch spells that were far too complex/powerful magic for Evocation and too fast for Thaumaturgy? Kemmlerian Necromancy.

Absolutely.  My point is just that we needn't lean so hard on the Kemmlerites, it's definitely possible to fuck with people's heads with plain ol' vanilla Evocation.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 08, 2011, 06:58:04 PM
@DFJunkie:

The word "definitely" has no place in that sentence.

The issue of whether or not evocation can be used to inflict mental stress is often argued around here. The primary concerns are balance and thematics.

I can rustle up some links if you want.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: DFJunkie on April 08, 2011, 07:24:04 PM
Quote
The word "definitely" has no place in that sentence.

The issue of whether or not evocation can be used to inflict mental stress is often argued around here. The primary concerns are balance and thematics.
Meh?  Since when is that even a question?  It might be unbalanced but it definitely seems doable.  Of course it seems like a pretty obvious 3rd law violation, so if it's targeting a human here comes some Lawbreaker, and if a Warden sees you do it they'll probably execute you on suspicion.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 08, 2011, 07:28:56 PM
It is unquestionably a question.

People wouldn't argue so much over it if it were not.

Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean that no other view is valid.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: UmbraLux on April 08, 2011, 07:31:47 PM
Have to agree with DFJunkie on evocation.  Look to Eastern Elemental descriptions if you need inspiration, each has a specific emotion assigned.  Beyond manipulating emotion, mental veils seem as obvious as visual and maneuvers are even simpler.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: ways and means on April 08, 2011, 09:09:40 PM
I think there is a balance question but from the books it is shown that normal non-sponsored evocation can do mental stress for example
(click to show/hide)
.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: Tedronai on April 09, 2011, 04:38:59 AM
I think you meant 'even', not 'at least', w&m.
Title: Re: Instant Thralls! Just add Evocation!
Post by: ways and means on April 09, 2011, 07:32:29 PM
I think you meant 'even', not 'at least', w&m.


My bad I altered it.