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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Belial666 on April 06, 2011, 10:16:27 AM

Title: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: Belial666 on April 06, 2011, 10:16:27 AM
Given that the ability of spellcasters fluctuates even at the same power level, it might be useful for GMs to have some numbers of what is average power, meaning the power/control for rotes of a dedicated but generalist practitioner, focused power , meaning the power/control of rotes for a dedicated practitioner focusing on a single aspect of magic (only offense, only defense, only rituals or only a single element/theme) and max power, meaning the maximum size of spell a practitioner could reasonably pull off (with backlash/consequences/whatever) without shenanigans.

The idea is that once we got numbers for the various types of practitioners (focused practitioners, lawbreaking focused practitioners, sorcerors/wizards, lawbreaking sorcerors/wizards, sponsored magic users and sorcerors/wizards with sponsored magic) we can make a table GMs can look up to decide on challenges for spellcasters, where a given spellcaster is on the power scale, comparisons and other useful stuff. For simplicity's sake, submerged power level without items of power offers a common ground for the least amount of work.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: Tedronai on April 06, 2011, 10:48:29 PM
Probably a good idea to base such evaluations only on canon-sourced powers/stunts, as well.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: BumblingBear on April 06, 2011, 11:09:06 PM
I don't think the community could ever agree on this one.

How the table is run is really an individual thing.

I encourage power gaming, because this allows me to make more interesting/powerful monsters.

Of course, I warn players before doing so that they may be effectively killing off their characters. :)

The more power is being thrown around, the more likely it is for a PC to be taken out and killed.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 07, 2011, 12:25:45 AM
I generally work on a system of steps based around the number of shifts one can safely power and control with a rote in one's best element when using foci.

3 shifts is the base. If you can't do it, you can't really call yourself an evoker. (All spellcasters from Feet In The Water up should be capable of this.)

5 shifts is par for the course. This is the minimum for a combat wizard. (This is what I expect from a Submerged wizard.)

7 shifts is fairly impressive. Experienced Wardens who focus on evocation are generally at this level. (This is what I expect from a combat-focused Submerged wizard.)

9 shifts marks a master. The best evokers of the Wardens are at this level. (I don't expect to see this often at Submerged character creation, but it's far from impossible.)

11+ shifts is incredible. The Senior Council is at this level, as are one or two Wardens. (If you have this at Submerged, you are probably focusing too much on evocation.)
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: BumblingBear on April 07, 2011, 02:10:01 AM
I generally work on a system of steps based around the number of shifts one can safely power and control with a rote in one's best element when using foci.

3 shifts is the base. If you can't do it, you can't really call yourself an evoker. (All spellcasters from Feet In The Water up should be capable of this.)

5 shifts is par for the course. This is the minimum for a combat wizard. (This is what I expect from a Submerged wizard.)

7 shifts is fairly impressive. Experienced Wardens who focus on evocation are generally at this level. (This is what I expect from a combat-focused Submerged wizard.)

9 shifts marks a master. The best evokers of the Wardens are at this level. (I don't expect to see this often at Submerged character creation, but it's far from impossible.)

11+ shifts is incredible. The Senior Council is at this level, as are one or two Wardens. (If you have this at Submerged, you are probably focusing too much on evocation.)

This is a pretty good guide.

That said, control rolls are where a character can really destroy something (or someone).  NGM are important for casters.

A caster is a +9 control roll with 4 hoarded fate points, a +2 on the dice, and 2 NGM is looking at a +23 shift control/targeting roll.

If they are casting a 9 shift evocation, that's a 32 shift evocation... without /too/ much difficulty.  This is perfectly possible at chest deep or submerged levels.

I would argue that the base numbers are not what make a powerful evoker - a lot of it comes down to how someone plays.

Some wizards put the cannon in glass cannon.  Some prefer to just play the glass... and that is ok too.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: admiralducksauce on April 07, 2011, 02:29:08 AM
WTF is a NGM?  Ninja Guided Missile?
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: ways and means on April 07, 2011, 02:31:15 AM
I think NGM are manouvres though I have no idea what the NG stand for.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: devonapple on April 07, 2011, 02:35:04 AM
I think NGM are manouvres though I have no idea what the NG stand for.

Navel-Gazing Maneuvers: maneuvers to place Aspects on oneself, usually things like "Focused," "Ready for a Fight," "Calm," "Crammed For the Test.".
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: BumblingBear on April 07, 2011, 06:22:32 AM
Navel-Gazing Maneuvers: maneuvers to place Aspects on oneself, usually things like "Focused," "Ready for a Fight," "Calm," "Crammed For the Test.".

Yup.

A favorite I liked to do in my last game was to wave my hands in arcane gestures for a maneuver while fighting. This could be either an athletics or a discipline roll depending on the character.

My character couldn't act right away.  He usually had to stay out of the action or hide behind something for 3 actions or more, but once he was ready to lay down the hurt, the hurt got laid.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: Tedronai on April 07, 2011, 06:46:55 AM
the hurt, the hurt got laid.

Here's hoping the hurt used protection...
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: BumblingBear on April 07, 2011, 07:01:48 AM
Here's hoping the hurt used protection...

LOL! +1
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: Belial666 on April 07, 2011, 07:27:31 AM
Well, a submerged wizard (wizard template + 2 refinements) could easily have control +2, power +1, +3 offense power focus, +3 offense control focus, +1 focus specialization (to make the foci the smallest possible) and conviction/discipline of superb. That's +10 control/+9 power offense, +7 control/+6 power defense.

A submerged focused practitioner (spirit channeling + diabolism ritual +5 refinements) could have spirit offense +5 foci, spirit defense +2 foci. That's +10 control/power offense, +7 control/power defense.

A submerged necromancer (evocation, thaumaturgy, kemmlerian necromancy, 1 refinement) is downright terrifying. +2 spirit power, +1 spirit control, +1 necromancy control, +4 necromancy control focus plus necromancy bonuses. That means power 8, control 11 necromancy/psychomancy at the speed of evocation, complexity 5 necromantic/psychomantic rituals finished at a single exchange due to control 11. As long as they are smart and they stick to legal necromancy/psychomancy to avoid Lawbreakers, they are badass. Of course, they could pretty easily go off the deep end as NPCs. In that case, run for the hills; they're gonna have full Lawbreaker 1st, 3rd and 5th. That boosts them to power 8, control 14 meaning they kick serious ass.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: ways and means on April 07, 2011, 08:51:15 AM
i consider the sight a prereq for kemmlerian necromancy as you need to be a wizard or a sorcer to use it and both of those classes have the sight as a requirement.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: zcthu3 on April 07, 2011, 09:07:46 AM
Actually Sorcerers only need Thaumaturgy and Evocation. The entry on Sorcerers says most have the Sight as well, but it isn't a pre-requisite for being a Sorcerer.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 07, 2011, 04:49:46 PM
Wait, Belial, do you let the necromancy control bonus stack with the spirit control bonus? That seems like a bad idea to me. (If I did it with Tbora than goddamn it.)

I also question the possibility of using Kemmlerian Necromancy without Lawbreaker (Fifth). I always got the impression that simply casting a Kemmlerian Necromancy spell breaks the Fifth Law. That's subjective, though.

And yes, a Submerged character can be truly world-class in one thing. Evocation is a rather good choice for that thing to be.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: Belial666 on April 07, 2011, 05:27:55 PM
Kemmlerian Necro gives a further +1 bonus, I think (on top of allowing you to use the necro control). Also, Harry raised a dinosaur with Kemmler's works but did not violate any Laws.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 07, 2011, 05:34:24 PM
Ah, I see. I missed that.

And whether Harry was using Kemmlerian necromancy or just Thaumaturgy there is up for debate. And it's a debate I'm not really interested in having.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: Becq on April 07, 2011, 05:53:18 PM
I'm not sure how the math worked on your Necromancer example.  I count totals to necromancy of 5 power (since there are no necromantic power bonuses) and 11 control.  You can't add your spirit evocation spec bonuses with your necromantic thaumaturgy spec bonuses on a single spell.  (Although with Kemmlerian Necromancy, you can use your Necromancy control bonus in evocation instead of your normal control, so long as there's a sufficiently necromantic theme to the evocation.)  You'd be better of moving your spec to Necromancy (+1 spirit power, +2 necromancy control, +1 necromancy complexity) for versatility, as this could allow you to argue using your now 12 necromancy control with every evocation you cast.  You could also try to convince your GM to allow you to take a specialization in thaumaturgy power (since you can cast it like evocation), in which case you'd probably want to swap the +1 necromancy complexity for a +1 necromancy power, and possibly even move a +1 from your control spec to power, too, ending up with +7 power and +11 control for necromancy, +6 power and +11 control for death-flavored spirit, and +5 power and +11 control for death-flavored everything else.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: ways and means on April 07, 2011, 08:04:13 PM
Wow 14 control for death themed evocation at 12 refresh that is grim (5 discipline +4 focus +3 specialisation(+1,+2) +2 lawbreaker) especially when considering the fact that showing someone images of their death (mental stress) would probably count even if your shields are rubbish.  
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: foondar on April 07, 2011, 10:06:01 PM
Quote
A submerged focused practitioner (spirit channeling + diabolism ritual +5 refinements)

From my reading of the rules, focused practitioners can't take refinement.  Only Sorcerers and Wizards can.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: ways and means on April 07, 2011, 10:32:07 PM
Quote from: Your Story
Channeling comes with two free
Focus Item Slots (page 278). You can design
the items that fit into these slots now, or later
on during play. A single Focus Item Slot may
be traded in for two Enchanted Item Slots
(page 279). You may gain more Item Slots as
one of the options on the Refinement
ability (page 182)—but you may only buy
Refinement for that purpose. All items
created for those slots must be in keeping
with the elemental theme you’ve chosen for
your power"
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: devonapple on April 07, 2011, 10:47:33 PM
So, yes on refinements, but only for Focus Item slots (which can be liquidated for Enchanted Item slots).
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: Becq on April 07, 2011, 11:23:41 PM
Wow 14 control for death themed evocation at 12 refresh that is grim (5 discipline +4 focus +3 specialisation(+1,+2) +2 lawbreaker) especially when considering the fact that showing someone images of their death (mental stress) would probably count even if your shields are rubbish.  
That depends on how lenient your group is on letting you define effects.  For example, you could come up with a spell called "Flesh of the Grave" which causes your flesh to become tough, leathery, and corpse-like.  It would be similar to Biomantic magic, but would be cast via Necromancy, making use of your Necromantic bonuses (Necromancy). Or perhaps "Shield of Decay" which would be very much like Carlos' shield, but flavored to have a death theme (Necromancy-assisted Water).  Or perhaps "Wall of Ghosts", which would cause a number of weak ghosts to orbit around you, trailing an ectomplasmic sheen behind them that deflects attacks (Necromancy-assisted Spirit, or pure Necromancy).
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: ways and means on April 07, 2011, 11:29:40 PM
What I meant was that block were run off of power rather than control so to get a good block requires a lot of mental stress.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: Becq on April 07, 2011, 11:37:23 PM
That's true, yes.  Defenses rely much more on power than control, whereas control is stronger for attacks.  Even so, it might not be a terrible idea when finding yourself in a tough fight to just mark off your third or fourth mental box to get yourself a powerful shield.

Or just lay waste to everything in sight before it can hit you, I guess.  :p
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: Belial666 on April 08, 2011, 07:07:33 AM
My necro example is calculated correctly;
Quote
Kemmlerian necromancy
might combine with the spirit element to inflict
potent visions of death upon a victim. This sort
of combination allows the spellcaster to use his
existing evocation specialization bonuses with
the new power source.
and
Quote
A Kemmlerite may choose to use
his control bonus from necromancy instead of
the control bonus he would normally use with
evocation, so long as the casting incorporates
some element of death
and finally the +1 bonus of the sponsored magic itself.



So said Kemmlerite is casting Kemmlerian Necromancy at the speed of evocation, using his spirit specialization bonus for power, his necromancy control and the bonus to necromancy. That combination makes him really, really nasty.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: stabbald on April 08, 2011, 10:06:53 AM
Wait, Belial, do you let the necromancy control bonus stack with the spirit control bonus? That seems like a bad idea to me. (If I did it with Tbora than goddamn it.)

I also question the possibility of using Kemmlerian Necromancy without Lawbreaker (Fifth). I always got the impression that simply casting a Kemmlerian Necromancy spell breaks the Fifth Law. That's subjective, though.

And yes, a Submerged character can be truly world-class in one thing. Evocation is a rather good choice for that thing to be.

Even if it doesn't require a lawbreaker I'm thinking that if any Warden saw you using Necromancy they would excecute you immediately, just in case.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: Belial666 on April 08, 2011, 02:37:02 PM
Necromancy isn't just raising the dead. A withering spell to hit someone with a magical wasting disease, an energy-drain spell to leech part of his life-force, spiritual barbs to tear at his soul and/or cause tremendous pain - those are all necromancy and can be nonlethal. Sure, they are horrible uses of magic - but they aren't Lawbreakers.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: toturi on April 08, 2011, 02:49:01 PM
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: Becq on April 08, 2011, 08:50:37 PM
So said Kemmlerite is casting Kemmlerian Necromancy at the speed of evocation, using his spirit specialization bonus for power, his necromancy control and the bonus to necromancy. That combination makes him really, really nasty.
Ah, I see, but I believe you're misinterpretting the text, in part because you're missing some context for the first quote.  The complete quote is:

Quote
In addition, if you already practice evocation, you may use a sponsored power source to “supercharge” an element you’ve already specialized in. So Summer magic might combine with the air element to give a “breath of life” effect; hellfire might combine with fire to produce, well, hell-fire; and Kemmlerian necromancy might combine with the spirit element to inflict potent visions of death upon a victim. This sort of combination allows the spellcaster to use his existing evocation specialization bonuses with the new power source.

With that context, those two blocks of text are talking about the same thing: the ability to 'supercharge' your existing evocation elements by channeling Kemmlerian Necromantic (KN) energy into them (a common sponsored magic capability).  This allows you to use your KN bonus (in this case, the +1 control) when casting normal evocations and using your normal evocation specialization bonuses (ie, they stack).  The second block of text adds a capability unique to KN (at least, among the sponsored magic examples provided) that allows you (again, when casting normal evocations flavored by KN) to use your Necromancy control bonus (which would include the KN +1 bonus) in place of the normal element's control bonus (which in this case could also inclue the KN +1).

So far, I think we agree on the above.

The difference, though, is that it doesn't say that you can replace use your Evocation bonuses when casting Thaumaturgical effects, whether or not you do so using the rules of Evocation.  This seems to be allowed by your first quote, until you add in the context provided by the sentences before it, as quoted above.  So to summarize, KN allows you to:

* Add a bonus to your complexity and control when casting Thaumatugy(Necromancy).
* Cast Thaumatugy(Necromancy) rituals fast, using Evocation's rules.
* Add a bonus to your existing Evocation([element]) control when casting thematically appropiate Evocation spells.
* Use your (bonused) Thaumatugy(Necromancy) control in place of your Evocation([element]) control when casting thematically appropiate Evocation spells.
but not
* Use your Evocation([element]) power when casting Thaumatugy(Necromancy) rituals fast, using Evocation's rules.

So still nasty, but somewhat less so.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: Belial666 on April 08, 2011, 09:41:52 PM
I was just using this interpretation and thus this assignment of foci/specializations;
Quote
When using thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation, you use your evocation specializations  -> thus you boost your evocation power to get bigger stuff.

What you are saying is this;
Quote
When using thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation, you use your thaumaturgy specializations  -> thus you boost your thaumaturgy complexity to get bigger stuff.


The total bonus in either case is exactly the same. The only thing that's different is how you assign specializations when building the character. What really changes is the side-effects. In the first case, the necromancer also has a decent spirit power with evocations that are not necromantic. In the second case, the necromancer has even higher complexity in ritual necromancy. Thus in the first case (how I interpret it) the mage is more diversified while in the second he ends up a more focused necromancer.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: Becq on April 08, 2011, 10:02:17 PM
While I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea of being allowed to use your 'complexity' spec as if it was a 'power' spec when engaging in Thaum-as-Evocation, I can't find anything in the mechanics that allows this.  Complexity bonuses allow you to increase your Lore when casting Thaumaturgy, which helps not at all when doing fast Thaum thus requiring a high Conviction.

I think that the better solution, however, would be to allow 'power' as new Thaum specialization choice only useable in conjunction with sponsored magic.  Alternatively, you could argue that your sponsored magic, in effect, creates a new 'element' (kind of like adding a trapping to a skill), that does everything that Thaumaturgy(Necromancy) does.  This would allow you to invest in specialization for your new Evocation element.  Or, at least, for the power aspect of it, since you'd probably want to use your Thaumaturgy(Necromancy) control bonus, which would work for both Thaum and Evocation.

In either case, the above ideas would be house rules.  To my understanding, there is no 'power' spec that applies to Thaum spells, even cast as evocation.
Title: Re: Power of submerged casters?
Post by: Belial666 on April 08, 2011, 10:34:33 PM
Actually, no. The explanation of the "thaumaturgy as evocation" specifically refers to the spells' power. So it follows logically that the spells use something as power - especially if "supercharging" is applied.