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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: toturi on April 05, 2011, 09:33:52 AM

Title: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: toturi on April 05, 2011, 09:33:52 AM
As the topic states, for what else other than breaking of the Laws, would a Warden or White Council mark you for death? During a state of war, I suppose the enemy forces are fair game, so in a war against the Red Court, Wardens can go after RCVs. But other than breaking the Laws, for what else can, say, a focused practitioner get executed by the Wardens or sentenced to death by the White Council?
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: crusher_bob on April 05, 2011, 10:42:34 AM
I'd guess not much, by canon.  Possibly the (non-magical) murder of a wizard.  But it looks like you can kill all the normal people you want.

Of course, from Morgan's interactions with Harry, it seems that they are not above the, "Oh my God! he's coming right at us!" excuse.  But I guess that not a death sentence, since that would imply more legal niceties.
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: Haru on April 05, 2011, 10:43:27 AM
in short: nothing.

BUT: if they think you broke a law, they are going to execute you as much as if you actually did it. And if you constantly walk the line, they might look really hard to get an excuse to put you down.
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: zenten on April 05, 2011, 12:13:48 PM
I'd say any serious betrayal of the White Council would count.
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: Belial666 on April 05, 2011, 12:26:26 PM
Falsely reporting someone for Lawbreaking then bombing the building the Council convenes in to pass sentence ought to do it.
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: DFJunkie on April 05, 2011, 12:29:19 PM
I doubt they would execute a Focused Practitioner.  They might kill one if the FP posed a threat to the Council or had done harm to a Wizard, but I think the reason Morgan was up for execution specifically in TC was that he was a member of the Council, and therefore under their jurisdiction. 
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: ways and means on April 05, 2011, 01:51:08 PM
I think owning the works of kemmler would get you killed even if you were not using them to break the law and possibly creating an army of necromantic sheep might get your head cut off.
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: Wolfwood2 on April 05, 2011, 03:35:22 PM
In addition the enforcing the Laws of Magic, the Wardens are also charged with protecting the interests of the White Council.  This means retaliating if one of the other supernatural factions (or unaffiliated monster) has harmed a Wizard or to a (much) lesser extent, a Practitioner of any sort.

Ultimately, the Wardens aren't cops.  They don't have a prison in which they can throw troublemakers or people misusing (on a sub-Law breaking level) magic.  The have only two tools of enforcement, threats and violence.  I imagine they use a lot of the former and resort to the latter when somebody tries to call their bluff.
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: Bruce Coulson on April 05, 2011, 06:07:07 PM
Theoretically, only a violation of the Laws of Magic by a mortal practicioner would warrant a formal execution.  And in practice, given the number of people involved, this is probably followed reasonably closely.

Now, as far as just killing someone (or thing); the Wardens have a LOT of latitude.  Wardens are supposed to be trained carefully to avoid abuses of power; but given Harry's former teacher, accidents happen.  So, basically, as long as a Warden's actions are against beings that can't file formal protests with the White Council, a Warden can kill pretty much anyone they want without much worry.

Most Wardens probably don't abuse this power.  Most of the time.  Most of them.  But consider
(click to show/hide)
; quis custodes ipsos custodes, after all.  There are few Wardens, a lot of territory, and little oversight.  Given that Wizards are human, it would be more surprising if no Warden had ever abused their position and authority, ever. 

I'd suspect that a lot of abuses are small things; cadging free drinks, discounts on books of lore, that sort of thing.  But as the books show, it can become a lot more serious.

So, actually, you could get marked for death by a Warden just by annoying them sufficiently and not having enough connections to make your death problematic politically.
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: sandchigger on April 06, 2011, 01:23:40 AM
Apparently owning Bob is enough to get Harry into the deepest of all possible doo-doos which is why he keeps him a secret from the Wardens.
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: ways and means on April 06, 2011, 01:27:33 AM
Quote from: sandchigger on April 06, 2011, 01:23:40 AM
Apparently owning Bob is enough to get Harry into the deepest of all possible doo-doos which is why he keeps him a secret from the Wardens.

Owning the works of kemmler ?
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: sandchigger on April 06, 2011, 01:36:10 AM
Works and tools, yup.

"Things wizards were not meant to know" might be a good catch-all.
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on April 06, 2011, 01:50:59 AM
In a couple of books, it's made clear that practitioners and such get visits from the Wardens if anyone thinks they might go over the line.

I've got the feeling that it's a one warning type thing.  That if the warden has to come back then someone is going to lose his head.

Richard
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: fantazero on April 06, 2011, 02:33:58 AM
Talking out of turn...that's a paddling.  Looking out the
        window...that's a paddling.  Staring at my sandals...that's a
        paddling.  Paddling the school canoe...ooh, you better believe
        that's a paddling.
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: deathwombat on April 06, 2011, 03:01:18 AM
I deserve a paddling!
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: toturi on April 06, 2011, 09:14:33 AM
Quote from: fantazero on April 06, 2011, 02:33:58 AM
Talking out of turn...that's a paddling.  Looking out the
        window...that's a paddling.  Staring at my sandals...that's a
        paddling.  Paddling the school canoe...ooh, you better believe
        that's a paddling.

What? I am afraid you may have lost me there. What are you talking about? Some obscure reference?
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: Vars on April 06, 2011, 09:55:01 AM
In the first book it pretty plainly says that the wardens are the watchdogs of the council. In addittion to upholding the laws of magic for all practitioners that are not other types of supernatural (ie. faries and such aren't their problem), I think it says several times that wardens would do whatever it takes to keep people from discovering the true reality of whats out there. In several books it implies that a warden would kill someone who had to much info from the mortal world and that they go around smacking down things that have come out of their rightful area into the real world, such as fetch's and boogeymen and trolls and such. IMO a warden is about safe gaurding the veil that is between what people do know and what they can know. If you agree then there are a ton of things you could get in trouble for. Divulging info would be a big one.
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: fantazero on April 06, 2011, 10:24:52 AM
Quote from: toturi on April 06, 2011, 09:14:33 AM
What? I am afraid you may have lost me there. What are you talking about? Some obscure reference?
:-\
Not knowing a classic simpson's quote...thats a paddlin'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFgR0m-9FmM
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: Bruce Coulson on April 06, 2011, 02:30:36 PM
The problem with Wardens killing people to keep secrets is that this may have worked in the past; it's likely to bring the attention of the mortal governments if they do it these days.  Yes, the Wardens could get away with this for a while; but eventually, someone they could never expect would put the pieces together.  And once someone with real authority decided (and could prove) there was a secret organization of murderers running around, bad things would happen.

There's also the point that if the Wardens routinely killed people just for finding out things, then it's likely they would start running into other people with swords who are dedicated to protecting innocents.

I would imagine that the White Council uses threats, implies things, and very rarely sanctions a mortal who has information and is intending to use it in bad ways.  But I can't see Wardens routinely killing people just because they've looked behind the curtain and accepted what they saw.
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: Wolfwood2 on April 06, 2011, 02:46:29 PM
Quote from: Bruce Coulson on April 06, 2011, 02:30:36 PM
The problem with Wardens killing people to keep secrets is that this may have worked in the past; it's likely to bring the attention of the mortal governments if they do it these days.  Yes, the Wardens could get away with this for a while; but eventually, someone they could never expect would put the pieces together.  And once someone with real authority decided (and could prove) there was a secret organization of murderers running around, bad things would happen.

The whole idea of the supernatural being a secret is plainly ridiculous, accepted as a premise for the sake of the story/game.  Given that, there's no point on arguing on the basis of 'what would really happen'.

Quote
I would imagine that the White Council uses threats, implies things, and very rarely sanctions a mortal who has information and is intending to use it in bad ways.  But I can't see Wardens routinely killing people just because they've looked behind the curtain and accepted what they saw.

Oh, probably not.  I think the best way to work it is that if none of the PCs are Wardens, then the Wardens are mysterious boogiemen who can kill anybody they think needs killing.  If one of the PCs is a Warden, then all of a sudden there are a lot of checks on their authority and what they can do that were previously invisible from the outside.
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: Bruce Coulson on April 06, 2011, 05:39:37 PM
The premise is that most mortals refuse to accept that magic, and the supernatural, exists.  So, 'keeping the secret' is more a matter of keeping information from reaching those mortals who would accept magic, and have enough real power to do something about it.

The Chicago Police Department has a squad assigned to 'disturbing' cases with the unwritten rule being to make these cases go away and not reach the papers...somehow.  Explain things, make things normal, don't bring up ideas that no one will believe and that would embarass the Department.  So, most mortal authorities work with the supernatural community to keep things hidden.  Most.

Fool Moon is an example of what can happen when you combine mortal authority with supernatural power.  Which is why everyone works to try and see that this doesn't happen.

And if a PC becomes a Warden, then I woulnd't suddenly impose a bunch of restrictions.  This is a game about being able to do what you want...if you're willing to accept the consequences.
Title: Re: What else warrants execution by the Wardens?
Post by: Wolfwood2 on April 06, 2011, 06:20:13 PM
Quote from: Bruce Coulson on April 06, 2011, 05:39:37 PM
The premise is that most mortals refuse to accept that magic, and the supernatural, exists.  So, 'keeping the secret' is more a matter of keeping information from reaching those mortals who would accept magic, and have enough real power to do something about it.

Which I think is plainly ridiculous and makes any argument on the basis of what 'would really happen' to be entirely pointless.

Going on to quote a bunch of examples from the books isn't going to change my mind.  I've read the books.  I just don't think they succeed in justifying magic-as-secret or making it even remotely plausible.  But then, I can't think of any urban fantasy setting that has ever made magic-as-secret seem plausible to me.

Quote
And if a PC becomes a Warden, then I woulnd't suddenly impose a bunch of restrictions.  This is a game about being able to do what you want...if you're willing to accept the consequences.

Hey, I'm just following how the novels themselves handle it.  Before Harry becomes a warden, the wardens are terrifying figures whose restrictions and internal organization he seems to have little clue about.  (And Harry is a White council wizard, even if one who doesn't network much.)  After he becomes a warden, Harry finds out that wardens have a hierarchy and territories and do have to answer to each other.

This suggests to me that their restrictions are largely invisible from the outside.  More importantly, it makes for a better game.