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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Sanctaphrax on April 02, 2011, 06:05:17 AM
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There is basically no way to chase someone down in combat in this game. As long as your opponent moves at least 2 zones with each sprint action, you'll never be able to get into their zone long enough to make a non-ranged attack unless you have speed powers.
This is rarely a problem. Combat doesn't occur on infinitely large flat surfaces. And chasing someone generally uses the non-combat contest rules.
But I wish that there was a way to simulate a retreat and pursuit in combat. I also wish that characters with Supernatural or Mythic Speed couldn't theoretically be completely immune to attack from non-Speed-power-having close-combat guys.
So, a houserule seems appropriate. The first thing that comes to mind is letting characters use overflow on Sprint actions to make attacks, possibly with the spray attack rules. The second is letting characters sacrifice their next action to attack after sprinting, which would actually make a good stunt under the regular rules now that I think about it.
Thoughts? Other suggestions? Random insults?
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I have to admit that I have used the mythical speed powers to do exactly what mentioned attacking then just moving two zones to be out of the range of mortals and then just moving in and out never giving the enemy and opportunity to hit, though my gm dealt with this problem by having someone ambush me. To some degree higher level speed powers should make you reasonably untouchable in conflict with slow mortals so it might not be a problem.
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I would start limiting all of those move actions in a chase by Endurance. I don't know exactly how I'd house rule it for a long chase, but after a while Endurance would restrict. Thing I know about normal foot chases though, is that they are normally limited to a few rounds. You're just trying to make enough ground to find cover and break line of sight. Eventually someone is going to tire.
With the speed powers, I'd do the same thing. Those with speed can move incredibly fast and cover distances like nobodies business, but they would still be restricted by Endurance after a while as they tire out, giving a persistent pursuer a chance to do some damage.
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The way I would run it is still allowing an attack when thematically appropriate for a higher skill nerf. Like... 3 zones away would be -2 or -3 to the attack.
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Supernatural Speed makes you faster than the fastest animals. Mythic Speed means you can casually keep up with cars without need to roll. Anyone moving with mortal speed should not be capable of keeping up and that's it.
Also, instead of just following someone in a chase, why not jump on him / ram him? People chasing eachother in the real world do not stop running to attack the one they chase - they simply use their own momentum to knock them down, trip or otherwise stop them from running. That could easily be reflected in the system; if you got enough athletics modifier to reach the other guy plus one, you reach him then take a supplemental action to fall on him /trip him/whatever using athletics or might. This is adjudicated as combined skill use, much like a grappler can take -1 to grapple to cause stress.
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To steal from World of Darkness...
Consequential Contest, using Athletics modified by Endurance. Fair?
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Thoughts? Other suggestions? Random insults?
Have you considered reskinning Diaspora's space ship combat (http://www.vsca.ca/Diaspora/Space%20combat%20demo.pdf)? It'd work for a full blown chase.
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The rules allow for good chases! You just have to be creative and think outside the box a bit.
As Belial666 posted, most chases don't end with a punch or kick; they end with a tackle or forcing the person into a corner/dead-end. You box them in or they encounter some form of obstacle that slows them down or stops them. Here are some simple ways I've ran such chases:
1) Player chasing an NPC spends a Fate Point to Declare that there is a chain-link fence just around the turn in the alley (classic movie scene stop here). NPC now has to make an athletics check to clear the zone block. Could also drop it to declare that there is traffic on the street he has to cross. Again, classic movie chase stuff; Roll Athletics or Endurance (or whatever) to cross the Zone Block of "Traffic".
2) NPC chasing a player uses his athletics to create a Zone Block by diving/rolling for the door. Could also work as a tackle against the target.
3) One of my players has a Great (+4) Endurance skill; so he just flat out wore a guy down. Ran him into the pavement with a series of Endurance checks to keep running. Harry often comments that he is a die-hard runner/jogger not because he likes it, but as life insurance.
4) Magic. 'Nuff said here.
No need to go about creating new rules and making things all complicated. Just think about all the chases you've ever seen in a movie or read in a book (or performed yourself depending on the course your life may have taken) and figure out how to work them out as a Maneuver, Declaration, Scene Invocation, or Block.
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The rules allow for good chases! You just have to be creative and think outside the box a bit.
As Belial666 posted, most chases don't end with a punch or kick; they end with a tackle or forcing the person into a corner/dead-end. You box them in or they encounter some form of obstacle that slows them down or stops them. Here are some simple ways I've ran such chases:
1) Player chasing an NPC spends a Fate Point to Declare that there is a chain-link fence just around the turn in the alley (classic movie scene stop here). NPC now has to make an athletics check to clear the zone block. Could also drop it to declare that there is traffic on the street he has to cross. Again, classic movie chase stuff; Roll Athletics or Endurance (or whatever) to cross the Zone Block of "Traffic".
2) NPC chasing a player uses his athletics to create a Zone Block by diving/rolling for the door. Could also work as a tackle against the target.
3) One of my players has a Great (+4) Endurance skill; so he just flat out wore a guy down. Ran him into the pavement with a series of Endurance checks to keep running. Harry often comments that he is a die-hard runner/jogger not because he likes it, but as life insurance.
4) Magic. 'Nuff said here.
No need to go about creating new rules and making things all complicated. Just think about all the chases you've ever seen in a movie or read in a book (or performed yourself depending on the course your life may have taken) and figure out how to work them out as a Maneuver, Declaration, Scene Invocation, or Block.
Good points.
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If your going to fight a fast character in a wide open space, bring a gun.
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If you're going to fight a fast character in a wide open space, set traps beforehand. Nets, tripwires, loose gravel, all that can work to your advantage.
Alternately: bring a bunch of friends to surround the place.
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If you're going to fight a fast character in a wide open space, set traps beforehand. Nets, tripwires, loose gravel, all that can work to your advantage.
If you do that, it's no longer a wide open space. ;D But you're right. There are lots of potential ways to deal with the fast characters advantage. On the other hand, there are times when they will have this advantage. That's one of the benefits of spending refresh on speed.
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Wide open spaces don't preclude the inclusion of terrain. Loose gravel, a bag of marbles, ropes and pit traps are all available in various open spaces. But yes, I agree. If you spend the points on a "go fast" power then you should be allowed to use it.
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The mechanism I've used for this is to allow overflow from sprint actions to function as a one-round duration penalty to sprint actions by whoever they're chasing.
So, suppose we've got a fast person (F), who always gets an athletics check result of 6, and a slow person (S), who always gets an athletics check of 4.
On round one, S runs away, and can move 4 zones. F catches up, and has two points of overflow, which applies a -2 penalty to S's next sprint.
On round two, S can only move 2 zones - he's getting hedged in and harried. F catches up again - and this time has four points of overflow, applying a -4 penalty to S's next sprint.
On round three, S can't run away; he can still try something else (like a maneuver to trip F), but F is definitely going to get some kind of action off as well.
On round four, there's no penalty in place anymore, and S can move another four zones away - essentially, this is a repeat of round one.
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The mechanism I've used for this is to allow overflow from sprint actions to function as a one-round duration penalty to sprint actions by whoever they're chasing.
So, suppose we've got a fast person (F), who always gets an athletics check result of 6, and a slow person (S), who always gets an athletics check of 4.
On round one, S runs away, and can move 4 zones. F catches up, and has two points of overflow, which applies a -2 penalty to S's next sprint.
On round two, S can only move 2 zones - he's getting hedged in and harried. F catches up again - and this time has four points of overflow, applying a -4 penalty to S's next sprint.
On round three, S can't run away; he can still try something else (like a maneuver to trip F), but F is definitely going to get some kind of action off as well.
On round four, there's no penalty in place anymore, and S can move another four zones away - essentially, this is a repeat of round one.
Ok that's all well and good...
So what if F is running away and S is doing the chasing?
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Ok that's all well and good...
So what if F is running away and S is doing the chasing?
Then you've got a faster person running away from a slower person, and, barring the intervention of fate points, clever maneuvers / declarations, or a sequence of really lopsided rolls, the faster person will simply get away. I don't see a problem with that; if you're a human trying to run down a cheetah on a straightaway, you're going to lose.
There are, of course, all sorts of maneuvers you can try - from finding shortcuts, to the patch of gravel that other people have mentioned, etc. But if you're person S, trying to chase down person F, you can't win in a straight contest, and will have to either get creative or accept defeat.
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I like Wyvern's answer here, and I think I'll use it if the issue ever comes up. Characters with Speed powers should certainly be able to run away if they choose to. But they shouldn't be able to strafe their opponent endlessly while incurring zero risk.
This stuff is actually probably better handled as a non-combat contest most of the time. But sometimes that won't be appropriate.
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This stuff is actually probably better handled as a non-combat contest most of the time. But sometimes that won't be appropriate.
Yeah, I'd probably run the chase as a consequential conflict and then continue on with the combat mechanics.
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The easiest solution that I've come up with to address the zero-risk strafing problem is twofold:
1) run combat as an undifferentiated continuous cycle (allowing delayed actions to preempt opponents with a higher initiative)
2) allow delayed actions to interrupt opponents' actions
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2) allow delayed actions to interrupt opponents' actions
I think we already have that rule in there somewhere. I so remember being confused awhile back because one section seemed to say we couldn't do that, but then an example with Mouse expressly showed him interrupting an action by delaying.
I don't have the page number references, either - my apologies.
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The zero-risk strafing problem appears not so much when someone is plain faster than the other guy but when he can take his normal action and move two or more zones at the same time as a supplemental action.
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re: delayed actions interrupting opposition:
From what I recall, YS seems somewhat conflicted on this subject, but since it's integral to the solution I was putting forward, I included it. If it's already allowable within your interpretations of the RAW, then that's fine. If it isn't, then implementing that solution would require you to house-rule a change to allow it.
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Interrupting actions by delaying is detailed on page 199 of YS. But I don't see how it solves anything.
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In order to strafe, they need to get in close enough to attack YOU. So long as your attacks have range at least close to theirs, if you are able to interrupt their action with your own, you can delay until they close the gap before striking, yourself. So long, that is, as your game is not using the RAW compartmentalized combat round where a delayed action cannot stray into subsequent rounds.
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Interrupting actions by delaying is detailed on page 199 of YS. But I don't see how it solves anything.
In order to strafe, they need to get in close enough to attack YOU. So long as your attacks have range at least close to theirs, if you are able to interrupt their action with your own, you can delay until they close the gap before striking, yourself. So long, that is, as your game is not using the RAW compartmentalized combat round where a delayed action cannot stray into subsequent rounds.
What Tedronai says. If you delay your action, you can wait until an opponent is about to hit you, which means they are "in range," and then you can preemptively hit the opponent as an "interrupt" (to use a term from my old Magic: the Gathering days). *Then* the opponent gets to hit you, and your initiative remains until you delay again.
The Speedster can adapt to that, unfortunately. So if you have a prolonged conflict with a Speedster, the non-Speedster is somewhat obligated to delay every other action in order to line up the possibility of an attack on the Speedster. Which effectively gives the Speedster two attacks to the Regular Joe's one attack. Which many people argue Speedsters should have, so this is kind of alright.
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The example with Mouse would actually seem to indicate that the rules may be using a different definition of 'interrupt' than I am using here.
In the example, when Mouse 'interrupts' the ghouls, he acts entirely before they do, not partway through their action as is necessary for this 'fix'.
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On the strafing issue, why not just do a Block on the speedster?
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Because you'll never win a conflict by taking solely defensive actions, and in order to impose an all-actions block, you STILL need to be 'in range' of your opponent.
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You'll only block them while in range, but there's nothing that says you can't initiate the block while they're not.
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Well, a delayed action grapple could be a good option for some.
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Well, a delayed action grapple could be a good option for some.
I was thinking a Fists or Weapons block myself.
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How do you phrase a weapons block, using, lets say, a sword, that would prevent an opponent with supernatural speed from disengaging (moving out of the zone) with minimal fuss in such a way that it can be initiated before that opponent is even within striking range?
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How do you phrase a weapons block, using, lets say, a sword, that would prevent an opponent with supernatural speed from disengaging (moving out of the zone) with minimal fuss in such a way that it can be initiated before that opponent is even within striking range?
I wait for him to come at me and then I step put my sword to his neck.
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Perhaps strafing was the wrong word. I was imagining a speedster with a gun, who never let his opponent into the same zone as him unless they sprinted.
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Note however that you got a sword. Or a gun. Or whatever other implement you want to use in a skill. Barring a specific stunt that gives bonus to blocks or a power that gives flat-out skill bonuses, your skill is at most equal to skill cap. A speedster with inhuman speed has athletics at skill cap +1. At supernatural speed, you are looking at skill cap +2. At mythic speed, you are looking at skill cap +3.
So the speedster has a good chance to ignore your block anyway - unless you're blocking with Incite, in which case you are blocking at Skill+2 because your WC virgin is so entrancingly pure (or not, as the case may be) that everyone gets distracted.
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Perhaps strafing was the wrong word. I was imagining a speedster with a gun, who never let his opponent into the same zone as him unless they sprinted.
If a character does that, I think the power is working as intended.
This is why it's good to have a balanced group.
A skilled gunslinger is really a boon to any group.
Wizards too, but a gunslinger can really lay down the hurt from a distance, and most players are creative enough to figure out a way to meet a catch with certain kinds of bullets if they are aware of it.
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I think that if Harry was in this situation (and if for some reason he didn't have his pistol and couldn't toss a fireball) he would probably fall back on his charming personality and provoke the bad guy into charging mindlessly into range...
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At mythic speed, you are looking at skill cap +3.
Hence, mythic.
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I think it's funny that a character with athletics:2 and mythic speed has identical athletics checks except for Stealth, etc as a character with Athletics:5.
Also, how does mythic speed allow a character to keep up with cars if they have an athletics of 1 before bonuses? That doesn't make any sense.
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I think it's funny that a character with athletics:2 and mythic speed has identical athletics checks except for Stealth, etc as a character with Athletics:5.
Also, how does mythic speed allow a character to keep up with cars if they have an athletics of 1 before bonuses? That doesn't make any sense.
Why doesn't it make any sense? Can you elaborate on how you see it?
Barry Allen is a police scientist, he works in his lab most of the time, he doesn't have much of an Athletics skill. But as the Flash, he outruns even Superman. Mythic Speed, to me, is Speed Force fast.
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Why doesn't it make any sense? Can you elaborate on how you see it?
Barry Allen is a police scientist, he works in his lab most of the time, he doesn't have much of an Athletics skill. But as the Flash, he outruns even Superman. Mythic Speed, to me, is Speed Force fast.
The raw athletics rolls for an athletics:2 +mythic speed character and an athletics:5 vanilla mortal are exactly the same.
Sure, the mythic speed guy can move zones during combat without a penalty and move more than 1 zone while acting, but in a sprint, they will both go about the same distance.
It doesn't make a lot of sense.
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An Athletics 1 guy with mythic speed moves as I he had Athletics 7 when sprinting. Still not Flash speed mind you.
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The raw athletics rolls for an athletics:2 +mythic speed character and an athletics:5 vanilla mortal are exactly the same.
Sure, the mythic speed guy can move zones during combat without a penalty and move more than 1 zone while acting, but in a sprint, they will both go about the same distance.
It doesn't make a lot of sense.
The guy with mythic speed gets 8 because the 3 doubles whilst sprinting and also has the power of thematics as he can run as fast as a car.
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Someone with Mythic Speed and athletics of 1 can move ten zones. 1 for his base athletics, 6 for twice the mythic speed bonus (it's doubled when sprinting), and another 3 for a free supplemental to move 3 zones. While sprinting he has an athletics defense of 7 (epic). Now, he may also set aside the doubling of the athletics bonus when sprinting to keep up with vehicles. I.e. he can simply declare he moves that many zones regardless of his actual athletics (which is only then used for defense).
As for the Flash, he probably has several upgrades heaped on top of plain Mythic Speed. Something like Kinkaid's mobility stunt to move a further 2 zones as a supplemental (total of 5), acrobat stunt for better ranged defense, an equivalent dodge stunt vs melee, a -1 refresh power to move in surfaces of any kind (such as ceilings and the surface of the sea), a -1 refresh power to allow maneuvers and blocks with athletics (similar to Incite Emotion, only physical), and finally a -1 refresh power that, for a fate point, allows him to reduce the time scale required to perform a physical task by his athletics or to use his athletics for an attack.
He also should have Physical Immunity to friction, acceleration and high-speed impacts; for him he is not fast, subjectively - the world is slow.
Yeah, -15 refresh for all his abilities seems about right.
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Someone with Mythic Speed and athletics of 1 can move ten zones. 1 for his base athletics, 6 for twice the mythic speed bonus (it's doubled when sprinting), and another 3 for a free supplemental to move 3 zones. While sprinting he has an athletics defense of 7 (epic). Now, he may also set aside the doubling of the athletics bonus when sprinting to keep up with vehicles. I.e. he can simply declare he moves that many zones regardless of his actual athletics (which is only then used for defense).
You don't get to add your supplemental move if you're sprinting.
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You don't get to add your supplemental move if you're sprinting.
? Where does it say, sprintings is full action but it didn't say in it's description that that it prohibited free or supplemental actions.
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See the example on Page 212 OW, and the writeup on supplemental moves on page 213.
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I missed the bit in mythic speed about sprinting.
p
That makes it more worth having.
Teaches me to make forum posts from memory!
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As a rule the speed powers are pretty good better than the strength powers for non-grapplers.
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It depends. The strength powers, even with just inhuman strength, allow you to break exterior walls of most buildings if you got a base might of superb and simply plow through weaker barriers without needing to roll. Even just inhuman strength would allow you to use a 100-pound I-beam or other heavy dense lever as a weapon, leading to weapon 6 attacks (4 from the weapon, 2 from inhuman strength). Just inhuman strength would also allow you to wear an advanced bomb suit and still easily move its bulk while you carry and shoot an M2 BMG. Of course, availability of said equipment is subject to the GM. Strength also means you are nigh-impossible to restrain, imprison or otherwise hold on to. If you can break exterior walls, what are bars and handcuffs to you? If you took your time, you could pretty much climb most surfaces as if they were ladders by simply punching handholds into them. And the GM can almost never tell you you are carrying too much loot. Last but not least, you can do maneuvers with Might in a great deal of situations. Wanna throw that sofa on an opponent to add the aspect "Knocked Down"? Lift an informant one-handed to help with intimidation? Put a bookcase to block the corridor so the bad guys cannot pass? Rip off a fuse box to plunge the room in darkness? Knock a hole in the wall to make an escape route for the team? Break the floor with your foot so the enemy falls into the basement beneath? Impress the ladies by half-lifting a nearby car? Cause uproar in a diplomatic meeting by breaking the Round Table?
While Athletics is really good for defense and moving yourself, because Might is for moving objects and people it can be used in a vast number of situations and effects. There's a reason "superstrength" is the second most common superpower, and that strength is a very desirable physical trait.