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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: sandchigger on March 30, 2011, 06:51:19 PM

Title: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: sandchigger on March 30, 2011, 06:51:19 PM
So it's noted in the books that Lord Raith keeps his girls well under his ah... thumb by use of his abilities as a WCV.
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So I'm wondering... how, exactly, is this done? Unless I missed a big slab of text in the powers write-up, I don't see anything inherent in Emotional Vampire that would allow this and again, barring my illiteracy, I didn't see anything in any of the OW character write-ups for the WCVs about a Dominate Minds power.

Am I missing something obvious here?
Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: devonapple on March 30, 2011, 06:54:22 PM
I don't know if it is necessarily obvious, but I have been thinking about that as well, and I choose to interpret it as follows:
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In short, the Taken Out/Concession mechanics.
Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: sandchigger on March 30, 2011, 06:55:14 PM
Well crap. It's obvious NOW!
Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: devonapple on March 30, 2011, 06:59:54 PM
Quote from: sandchigger on March 30, 2011, 06:55:14 PM
Well crap. It's obvious NOW!

Well, there is that "Create Renfield" power, which I could easily see being a red herring for someone trying to model that same outcome, but the Taken Out/Consession mechanics do cover it nicely.
Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: ways and means on March 30, 2011, 07:11:45 PM
It is pretty easy to see how using emotion control power could lead to someone become a complete thrall to you, say with incite lust you literally have soemone become addicted to you and use that. With inciting something like awe you could probably argue that someone you take out would obey you because you are the absolute soveriegn master who deserves to be obeyed. Though for game balance it could get a bit broken imagine a pet loup garou or a pet black court vampire.
Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: devonapple on March 30, 2011, 07:15:14 PM
Quote from: ways and means on March 30, 2011, 07:11:45 PM
Though for game balance it could get a bit broken imagine a pet loup garou or a pet black court vampire.

There are ways to balance it back. As with a full-size machine gun, amassing and relying on such resources may soon garner some unwanted attention, and even allies might start making contingency plans in case you go rogue. For villains, this is just henchman variety.
Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: DFJunkie on March 30, 2011, 07:35:18 PM
Well I think someone mentions in Blood Rites that WCVs settle disagreements by pitting their demons against each other, so I'd expect that this sort of manipulation is inordinately effective when it's between two WCVs.

Also, please note that
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Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: ways and means on March 30, 2011, 07:41:10 PM
Quote from: DFJunkie on March 30, 2011, 07:35:18 PM
Well I think someone mentions in Blood Rites that WCVs settle disagreements by pitting their demons against each other, so I'd expect that this sort of manipulation is inordinately effective when it's between two WCVs.

Also, please note that
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I think it was mentioned in the same book that Raith family troops weren't perfect thralls because that would make then less effective soliders, it might be the same within the family Lara would probably be a pretty rubbish aid-de-camp if she was incapable of making any decisions herself. I think if someone was truely broken with mental powers and did not fully understand the nature of the power used against them they would have very little chance of overcomeing their conditioning.   
Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: sandchigger on March 30, 2011, 08:31:47 PM
Granted, W&M, but what we see of
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in later books like White Knight and the way he's described in Backup kinda make it seem like complete domination is a definite possibility.
Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: Tedronai on March 30, 2011, 08:34:04 PM
So long as that domination is regularly enforced, at least, and with significantly decreased capacity in the victim.
Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: Belial666 on March 31, 2011, 11:14:28 AM
Except that Lord Raith's powers were crippled. Maybe after the crippling, he started losing control of his family.
Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: Tedronai on March 31, 2011, 02:56:11 PM
Because he could no longer properly reinforce the domination.
Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: DFJunkie on March 31, 2011, 04:12:04 PM
Quote
Because he could no longer properly reinforce the domination.

True, though he probably didn't reinforce it too frequently in any case.  That kind of domination doesn't seem any different from simply beating someone into submission on a regular basis: sure they'll obey your commands, but their minds will be compromised.  I don't think it's the same as a BCV's ability to create a thrall.
Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: tymire on March 31, 2011, 05:42:52 PM
Probably doesn't even have to be a take out.  You could get much of the same thing with an extreme mental consequence.  That would explain why Lara could do what she did as over time they recovered from it.
Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: devonapple on March 31, 2011, 06:02:32 PM
Quote from: tymire on March 31, 2011, 05:42:52 PM
Probably doesn't even have to be a take out.  You could get much of the same thing with an extreme mental consequence.  That would explain why Lara could do what she did as over time they recovered from it.

Extreme Consequences can easily be a result of a Taken Out/Concession situation.
Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: Tedronai on March 31, 2011, 06:28:14 PM
And if you're not conceding after taking an extreme consequence (and are likely, then, to be, in fact, refusing compels - possibly escalating compels - to concede), then...damn.  You got some big brass balls on you...
Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: Richard_Chilton on March 31, 2011, 07:23:05 PM
I see this less as mindbending and more as breaking someone's spirit.  The way it was done (emotion control) matters less than the fact that it was done.

As in Laura's father molded her, groomed her, raped her, dominated her, and made her his servant.  When he could no long physically/magically dominate her (because of a curse) she slowly (over about 20 - 30 years) recovered.  When she realised that he couldn't hurt her as he once had she was able to turn the tables on him.

In game turns, call it her buying off the extreme consequence "Daddy's subservient tool".

In her father's case, he was an arrogant sexist egomaniac.  He was master of the game and no one could best him with his own powers.  For one of his tools to escape control, to rise up, and for a mere female to beat him - that was a huge emotional and physiological blow.

In game turns, he refused to concede and fought to the bitter end because he couldn't accept the possibility of defeat at the hands of a mere female.  Before he was taken out he took an extreme consequence of "dominated by his own slave" or "accepts that he was wrong" - something along those lines.

In short, extreme consequences are crippling.  Physical ones cripple you physically while mental or social one cripple you in less visible ways.

Richard
Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: ways and means on March 31, 2011, 10:34:51 PM
I doubt Lara would of stopped any short of destroying her father even if he had wanted to concede, Lara had one great oportunity to win and she used it concessions only happen when both sides want it.
Title: Re: WCV and Mindf... bending. Mindbending.
Post by: Becq on April 01, 2011, 02:46:20 AM
I agree with Richard's take on this.  Lord Wraith used Lasting (Potent) Incite Emotion to mentally take out each of his children (probably many times), choosing to inflict an extreme consequence and thereby changing one (or more) of their aspects to make them more obedient.  This is reasonable given that mental attacks "change who you are".  I imagine the results would be along the lines of "I exist to please Daddy" or "I would be nothing without Daddy's guidance" or "I'd rather die than disobey Lord Raith".

While this wouldn't be as all-consuming powerful a result as Domination would create, it has the advantage of leaving the victim fully capable of acting on their own initiative, but with a soft control in the form of needing to pay Fate to act counter to the being that he now has become.  Given that the victims are all (or nearly all) negative refresh 'monsters', they have a particularly hard time overcoming those aspects.  And given the nature of the aspect, even an attempt to 'heal' the aspect would be potential compel-material.

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