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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Belial666 on March 28, 2011, 03:53:30 PM

Title: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: Belial666 on March 28, 2011, 03:53:30 PM
Sometimes, size does matter. What should be the weapon rating of a 2-bore rifle firing equally big bullets like these?
http://www.2-bore.com/
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: bibliophile20 on March 28, 2011, 04:07:24 PM
Weapon:4, methinks... but I think the gun might have its own aspect of "Kicks like a mule!" that the enemy can compel for anything from making the wielder off-balanced after firing, to even simply inflicting physical stress (1 point, but that'll add up over time...) from having the weapon improperly braced. 

Consequences from the compelled stress of having a gun like that repeatedly slam into you might go along of the lines of "Okay, now, anybody seen my shoulder?" "Dazed And Dislocated" "Recoilless, My Ass" and other ideas along those lines.

However, given what it'll do to your opposition, a little skeletal damage is a small price to pay. 
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: knnn on March 28, 2011, 05:49:58 PM
You could go with "Doom" ratings:

Pistol: Weapon 2
Shotgun: Weapon 3
Chaingun: Weapon 4
Rocket Launcher: Weapon 5
...
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: DFJunkie on March 28, 2011, 05:56:24 PM
I'd go with weapon:3 myself.  Weapon:4 is for things like heavy machine guns that might do less per-bullet damage than that monster, but definitely create more havoc over the course of a roughly 30 second exchange. 

I would definitely give a gun like that an aspect along the lines of "Armor? What armor?" to help it chew through hardened targets though.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: devonapple on March 28, 2011, 05:56:44 PM
Quote from: bibliophile20 on March 28, 2011, 04:07:24 PM
Weapon:4, methinks... but I think the gun might have its own aspect of "Kicks like a mule!" that the enemy can compel for anything from making the wielder off-balanced after firing

Should we open up the possibility that Consequences/Aspects can serve as a balancing factor for increasing the effectiveness of certain things?

"I'd like my pistol to do +2 damage against vampires" (Special Bullets), but to get that, I have to take the phantom Aspect "Extremely Limited and Expensive Ammo" which can be compelled in various ways: having the last bullet fall out of reach, requiring an Athletics check or a supplemental action, that sort of thing.

Maybe that was even a Consequence of the Resources check needed to *get* the Ammo. Imagine the player wanted the ammo. They missed the Resources check by two. They could have opted to increase the skill check duration by 2 steps on the time chart to make the minimum success. Or invoked an Aspect for a Fate Point. But instead, the GM offers them the ammo, but at the price of a 2-point Consequence to make up for the missing shifts. We don't even need it to take up space on the player's Consequence chart, but each one of these negative Aspects would be worth +2 shifts to the roll.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: fantazero on March 28, 2011, 11:13:12 PM
I say 4.
A Rifle is 3, so that should atleast be a 4.
Whats the range on those bad boys?
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: Belial666 on March 28, 2011, 11:26:51 PM
They do have considerable recoil but they are fired from specially made rifles that have more mass so the recoil is more controlled and a thicker, wide shoulder pad for bracing.

The problems are cost ($255 per round) and reload (as the rifle only takes 2 rounds). The bonus is that they can take down an elephant in one shot.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: fantazero on March 29, 2011, 03:09:35 AM
so your character better have Resources or Craftmanship
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: toturi on March 29, 2011, 04:10:25 AM
I'd modify the Guns roll with Might.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: ways and means on March 29, 2011, 05:59:45 AM
Quote from: toturi on March 29, 2011, 04:10:25 AM
I'd modify the Guns roll with Might.

That would mean that with the strength powers the gun roll will be higher.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: crusher_bob on March 29, 2011, 07:36:04 AM
Looks like the round generates around 22,000 Joules at the muzzle, roughly comparable to the ~18,000 J generated by .50 BMG.  That's fits reasonably well into weapon 4.  And there are a lot less silly firearms that you can carry around that would also qualify for weapon 4.

Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: toturi on March 29, 2011, 08:15:45 AM
Quote from: ways and means on March 29, 2011, 05:59:45 AM
That would mean that with the strength powers the gun roll will be higher.
Yes, I am aware of that.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: BumblingBear on March 29, 2011, 08:18:24 AM
Quote from: crusher_bob on March 29, 2011, 07:36:04 AM
Looks like the round generates around 22,000 Joules at the muzzle, roughly comparable to the ~18,000 J generated by .50 BMG.  That's fits reasonably well into weapon 4.  And there are a lot less silly firearms that you can carry around that would also qualify for weapon 4.



I agree with this.

That said, if it is thematically appropriate, go for broke.

Weapon 4 is a weapon 4.  I would think it would be much more practical to have a .50 bmg... but w/e floats a PC's boat.

I personally would even call a .308 semi auto a weapon:4 due to the high volume of fire.

For really gun-centric characters, though - aspects are where it's at.

For a really exotic gun and ammo, "armor piercing" and similar aspects could be used during play.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: ways and means on March 29, 2011, 10:35:41 PM
Would an Anti-materiel rifle count as weapons 4 or 5?
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: fantazero on March 29, 2011, 10:42:26 PM
Quote from: ways and means on March 29, 2011, 10:35:41 PM
Would an Anti-materiel rifle count as weapons 4 or 5?
I'd say 4.
Rpg 5
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: BumblingBear on March 30, 2011, 07:39:29 PM
Quote from: fantazero on March 29, 2011, 10:42:26 PM
I'd say 4.
Rpg 5

Yup.

A .50 BMG is a weapon 4.  However, if a character was using special ammo like AP rounds, I would just give the ammo an aspect.

Then during play, it could be invoked with a fate point to bypass 2 points of armor... or something.  Incindiary rounds would meet a fire catch.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: fantazero on March 30, 2011, 08:47:39 PM
what about things like Garlic ammo on vamps, or silver for werewolves?
Also should you just say
My character always carrys around x,y and z
Or before each scene, should it be, My character feels lucky today and only brings his pistol.
Or my Character is paranoid, loads his trunk with Mp5s and RPGs?
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: Tedronai on March 30, 2011, 08:50:07 PM
if you character ALWAYS has them, you might want to consider taking an Aspect to represent that
the others sound like declarations, to me
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: fantazero on March 30, 2011, 09:02:31 PM
Quote from: Tedronai on March 30, 2011, 08:50:07 PM
if you character ALWAYS has them, you might want to consider taking an Aspect to represent that
the others sound like declarations, to me
Do I have to declare I have a gun, if I'm a cop (FOR EXAMPLE), everytime?
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: devonapple on March 30, 2011, 09:09:18 PM
Quote from: fantazero on March 30, 2011, 09:02:31 PM
Do I have to declare I have a gun, if I'm a cop (FOR EXAMPLE), everytime?

From an abstract standpoint, players *are* essentially making Declarations all the time for these things. Declarations like your example are fairly easy to justify, and so a GM isn't going even ask for a Declaration check - it's essentially a free Declaration. Your high concept as Cop generally supports such Declarations. Simply having the Guns skill should even be enough for a Declaration.

When it gets into make-a-roll territory is when it isn't so easy to assume a particular resource is common to a particular character type. Resources, Declarations of an Aspect, etc. can make up for it, but eventually always having bane-type ammunition obligates somebody to take an Aspect to reflect this, like "There's a Bullet for That," "I Make My Own Ammo," "Just the Right Bullet," "Occult Weaponsmith."

That said, the spirit of the table will sway this one way or another, and if everyone is alright with the Clued-In Cop character always having some sort of bane-type ammo, then roll with it.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: BumblingBear on March 31, 2011, 06:33:08 PM
I played a character once who always had bane-type ammo available, but this was reflected in one of his core aspects and that his ex wife was a black court vampire.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: Kommisar on April 01, 2011, 03:10:35 PM
I covered a lot of this in another thread concerning big guns and DU-rounds.

Against a given target the Law of Diminishing Returns applies to the size of the weapon you hit it with.  I challenge anyone to really tell me what difference it makes if you hit a human target in the chest with a .50 cal round vs a 120mm round.  Both create a cratered chest and the target is dead.  The extra energy of the 120mm round (this is what most modern tanks mount and fire as their main gun) over the .50 cal round is wasted.  It is, literally, blow through.

The same applies to the difference between a .50 cal round and the more common military grade rifle rounds (7.62mm, 5.56mm, .308 cal).  The advantage gained by using a .50 rifle is in range and armor penetration.  Not in soft tissue damage.  You can always find a group of gun-bunnies that can talk for hours and hours about the intricacies of tissue damage profiles of the various rounds and give you just as many anecdotal, one-off, war-stories they've heard about.  Most of it is just talk trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill aimed at trying to justify "Cool Factor".  Yes, the .50 will cause more tissue damage.  But that extra damage is, in every way, purely academic.

The way I would model these big rifles and other esoteric and/or military grade weapons is through 3 means:

1)  AP.  I can't remember if this is actually in the book or if I just invented this right now.   ;D  But if you are using something designed and purposed to penetrate armor (like a .50 cal with a tungsten penetrating core), I give it a AP rating. This basically means that this round ignores that many levels of Armor.  No extra damage.

2)  Aspects.  Simple, flexible, quick and non-game breaking.  The player declares that he is loading "Ammo X" and gains a free tag on the Aspect "Super Ammo X" for +2 or an Invoke of some sort.

3)  Massive damage catch.  Think Ghouls and Uber-ghouls.


Oh, and yea.  Hit these guys with the Resources and Crafting checks for this stuff.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: Belial666 on April 01, 2011, 05:11:57 PM
The extra damage might be moot point in the case of humans but it is very helpful when hunting bigger things. Elephants are a good RL example for this; if a pissed-off elephant charges you, you only got one shot; if you don't drop the six-ton behemoth before it reaches you, you get flatenned. Hence the 2-bore elephant guns.

The same mentality applies to even tougher - though not necessarily bigger - supernatural creatures. If a human being is up against black court vampires that could literally survive losing pieces of themselves after being hit by a claymore (the mine or the sword - both apply), said humans really need guns that can put pizza-sized holes into humanoid bodies. Because fist-sized holes will just be ignored.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: UmbraLux on April 01, 2011, 06:10:16 PM
Kommisar has a point, that Mythically Tough ogre has Armor:3 (among other things).  Calling an anti-tank gun Weapon:4 (AP3) is just as effective as calling it Weapon:7 but without the weapon value escalation.  

The method works well for other games, it should work here as well.

Edit:  Corrected AP typo. :-[
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: Kommisar on April 01, 2011, 06:27:45 PM
You can also say that the Elephant has a level of Toughness (I'll let others debate what exact level) with the catch Massive Damage.  A Big Honking Gun would, then, meet that Catch.  Then, you could also argue that the elephant has an Armor Value of 1 (maybe 2).  You're Big Honking Gun, if armor penetrating, has an AP of 4 (say).  Boom, ignores it completely.

Replace elephant with Big Nasty Supernatural Critter and you have the weapons extra punch helping in taking down a nasty bruiser without going down the ever escalating damage increase path that games like D&D and Rifts had; with all the problems that those systems generated.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on April 01, 2011, 07:54:29 PM
I like what Kommisar is saying here about AP. I think I'll add that to the House Rules thread and maybe use it in my game.

I give elephants Supernatural Toughness with a catch of massive damage.

There are some cases where weapon value escalation is totally appropriate, though. Artillery comes to mind.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: devonapple on April 01, 2011, 07:58:14 PM
Quote from: Sanctaphrax on April 01, 2011, 07:54:29 PM
There are some cases where weapon value escalation is totally appropriate, though. Artillery comes to mind.

Then again, there is the FATE spiral dynamic of zooming in or out with the scope of powers/damage/etc. to handle larger- or smaller-scaled conflicts.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: Belial666 on April 01, 2011, 08:07:34 PM
Another point is that even submerged wizards can pull off weapon 8-9 evocations and council-level wizards could flatten buildings. Those guys and gals get higher weapon ratings so why shouldn't people with sufficiently big guns?
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: devonapple on April 01, 2011, 08:16:44 PM
Quote from: Belial666 on April 01, 2011, 08:07:34 PM
Another point is that even submerged wizards can pull off weapon 8-9 evocations and council-level wizards could flatten buildings. Those guys and gals get higher weapon ratings so why shouldn't people with sufficiently big guns?

Guns don't cost Mental stress to use or have the potential to cause Fallout or Blacklash.
Plus, you can hand anyone a gun and they can at least fire with a +0 skill.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: Kommisar on April 01, 2011, 08:25:50 PM
Even with artillery, I wouldn't throw out as high a number as many would expect.  Weapon 5 for 105mm and 155mm HE rounds of various sorts would be appropriate.  The big thing with High Explosive weapons is that it affects an entire zone (or multiple zones depending on how you draw them).  Artillery can be tricky for us gamer types to model due to the massive number of variables that are involved.  It can really be "Hand of God" stuff and is why combat veterans can have a very superstitious view of artillery.  You can have a guy survive standing five feet from a shell that hits or a guy killed several hundred feet away from a piece of shrapnel.

In my opinion, that randomness is best left to the roll itself.  If you get hit dead on by a 105mm shell; the tip of the round crushes into your skull and detonates; well, that is a +4 on the roll to hit you, you rolled a -4 on your defense and, therefore, essentially a Weapon 17 attack.  Throw in some Fate points and all...

Arty works best for non-mooks, IMHO, when done through concessions.  Arty hits; start working out the effects as a concession.  You lost a limb.  You, you're "shell shocked".  You've got burst ear drums and are "Bleeding".
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: BumblingBear on April 01, 2011, 08:32:49 PM
Wizards should do more damage than someone with a gun.  Wizards are ofgwtfbbq powerful in the DF.  They're the Jedi of this story.

That said, a Rifleman with a nice scope and marksman aspect firing from stealth for an ambush attack, with stacked aspects and AP ammunition can still take out most folks in one shot.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: Belial666 on April 01, 2011, 09:05:21 PM
He wasn't prepared for it. "Prepared for it" means "I cast a veil making me appear 2 feet to the left so aimed sniper shots will miss". It may also mean "I go shopping under a 'don't notice me' veil/potion cause there's a war on and I want to live".


One of the things Harry doesn't really do is prepare - he has the wrong temperament for it. Even the bigger wards for his house only come because some zombies almost ate him when the old wards he never bothered to beef up failed.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: jybil178 on April 01, 2011, 09:39:28 PM
Quote from: Belial666 on April 01, 2011, 09:05:21 PM
He wasn't prepared for it. "Prepared for it" means "I cast a veil making me appear 2 feet to the left so aimed sniper shots will miss". It may also mean "I go shopping under a 'don't notice me' veil/potion cause there's a war on and I want to live".


One of the things Harry doesn't really do is prepare - he has the wrong temperament for it. Even the bigger wards for his house only come because some zombies almost ate him when the old wards he never bothered to beef up failed.

Acutally, if I recall correctly, at that point he HAD beefed up his wards.  The problem wasn't they weren't strong enough, it was in the way they were erected.  A vamp comes up to his door, he gets vaporized.  This stops most intruders.  However, (potential spoiler from Dead Beat)
(click to show/hide)
  It was a weakness in design.

Now, back to the topic at hand, I was wondering how exactly you would determine the AP value of a weapon, if you were to go about with that particular house rule.  I noticed you mentioned the .50 cal as weapon: 4, AP(3).  Was that just a random number off your head, or was it basically saying that you think a weapon's AP value, if it has one, should be equal to 1 less then the weapons value?

Second, I want to say, although I couldn't actually say for certain, or cite a page, that the example of an Armor Piercing Aspect for ammunition was mentioned at one point in the book.  I think it was also shortly followed up by another example of a special ammunition, who's tagging of an Aspect could allow you to satisfy the catch for someones Toughness.  But it never went into detail of what exactly an Armor Piercing Aspect would do.

Maybe you can tag it, to completely bypass an Armor's Armor Value?  But at that point, it seems to just kinda get silly....  Maybe certain levels of armor, give or take, from 1-2 would classify as having the aspect of "Lightly Armored" or something along those lines.  Smaller caliber firearms with AP rounds could have an Aspect of "Light Armor Piercing", which can be tagged to negate the effects of Lighter Armors.  Then armors from 3-4, professional military gear and full Riot Armor, could have a heavier form of the "Armored" Aspect, requiring a heavier form of AP rounds, like the .50 caliber to field a heavier "Armor Piercing" aspect.  But once you go into all those, you kinda get outa the simplicity of the FATE system, and into more rulsy guidelines you need to start following.

Anyway, I was just wanting to know exactly how you would go about doing putting together something like this, as it would be very helpful for my upcoming campaign.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: ways and means on April 01, 2011, 09:46:48 PM
To tag something you need to roll to create the aspect, though I suppose it could be a decleration.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: jybil178 on April 02, 2011, 01:46:57 AM
Quote from: ways and means on April 01, 2011, 09:46:48 PM
To tag something you need to roll to create the aspect, though I suppose it could be a decleration.

A declaration or something similar to that effect, whenever the player goes about obtaining the ammunition in question, regardless of its particular qualities.  This is a situation where it makes sense to allow a player to make it, and use it for a later time.  Best I can think of anyway...
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: BumblingBear on April 02, 2011, 02:52:12 AM
Quote from: Belial666 on April 01, 2011, 09:05:21 PM
He wasn't prepared for it. "Prepared for it" means "I cast a veil making me appear 2 feet to the left so aimed sniper shots will miss". It may also mean "I go shopping under a 'don't notice me' veil/potion cause there's a war on and I want to live".


One of the things Harry doesn't really do is prepare - he has the wrong temperament for it. Even the bigger wards for his house only come because some zombies almost ate him when the old wards he never bothered to beef up failed.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: toturi on April 02, 2011, 03:20:25 AM
Harry was prepared for an attack. He prepared for it the same way he thought he should. The way he did so was probably Compelled against him. He could have went out disguised, but that was probably ruled too subtle for Harry.

If it was someone else like Molly or even Ramirez, the veil could have been a good way for them to be prepared. If it was Carlos, he probably could have both a shield and a veil.

Harry was not as prepared as he could have, he was as prepared as the story was prepared for him to be.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: BumblingBear on April 02, 2011, 03:35:18 AM
Quote from: toturi on April 02, 2011, 03:20:25 AM
Harry was prepared for an attack. He prepared for it the same way he thought he should. The way he did so was probably Compelled against him. He could have went out disguised, but that was probably ruled too subtle for Harry.

If it was someone else like Molly or even Ramirez, the veil could have been a good way for them to be prepared. If it was Carlos, he probably could have both a shield and a veil.

Harry was not as prepared as he could have, he was as prepared as the story was prepared for him to be.

I'm willing to buy that.

I guess my point is that he was not caught by surprise, flatfooted though.  He was expecting an attack and it still floored him.
Title: Re: Weapon rating for big guns?
Post by: Kommisar on April 02, 2011, 03:26:04 PM
The AP value of "3" was just off the top of my head, but would be a minimum value as it allows for a .50 cal round to bypass any personal body armor absent any magical effects.

I haven't had to come up with a comprehensive list of AP values yet due to the fact that the game I am running is 5 wizards.  Now, I am starting up a FATE system Star Wars game this month... but that will be scifi with blasters.   I will post up a quickie guide though as a starting point for refining.

AP Pistol Rounds ( "Cop Killer Rounds", Teflon, ect..) - AP 1
Military Grade Rifle (7.62mm, .308 cal, 5.56mm) AP Round - AP 2
Light Machine Gun Rounds (same as Rifles, actually) AP Round - AP 2
Heavy Machine Gun Rounds (.50 cal, 20mm) Normal Round - AP 3
Heavy Machine Gun Rounds Improved AP round - AP 4
Special AT rifle/MG rounds (Sabot rounds and the like) - AP 5
Shaped Charge AT rockets (Laws, Dragons, RPGs) - AP 6

For armor values:

Civilian Vehicles (toyota, Ford) - Armor 1
Armored Car - Armor 2 to 4 depending on quality and cost
Unarmored Humvee - Armor 2
Current (armored up) Humvee - Armor 3
LAV / APC - Armor 5 to 7
Main Battle Tank - Armor 8

For me, I would run any heavier weapons against human targets as concessions as opposed to a bunch of rolls and the like.  That way you can better control the story element of the game... assuming you are running a game where your players could be on the receiving end of a 81mm mortar barrage.