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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: zenten on March 27, 2011, 09:22:26 PM

Title: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: zenten on March 27, 2011, 09:22:26 PM
So I have an ogre that's being lured into a trap by the PCs.  This ogre is meant to be the big bad, and defeating him will mark a Significant Milestone.  There will be seven submerged level PCs at the fight, including a knight of the cross and two very combat capable true mortals with cold iron in their shotguns.  The ogre is more skilled and much smarter than a typical ogre, but has no minions.  How many Fate points should I have the ogre start the fight with?
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: Team8Mum on March 27, 2011, 09:35:43 PM
The number it takes him to defeat the players - 1

That way it will be a hard fought fight and almost take them down but they will just scrape through and know they earned it.

The number it takes him to defeat the players is probably in the region of their combined current fate points. that way they will have to get bright and work together to succeed. But only you know how good your group are at stuff like that, so you may want to go easy on them and give him a few less if are an argumentative lot or have attacks of being 'hard of thinking'.
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: Tedronai on March 27, 2011, 09:37:59 PM
If this is THE big-bad of the moment for a (relatively large) group of Submerged PCs, I'd suggest you start by stat-ing him out in full at Snorkelling (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21533.0.html), and go from there, possibly bumping him up to Scuba Diving
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: zenten on March 27, 2011, 09:43:03 PM
I forgot to mention that most of the players have a good handle on using maneuvers and whatnot, and I like to give advice to those few that don't.
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: zenten on March 28, 2011, 01:21:49 PM
I've decided to go with a base refresh of half the total refresh of the player characters.  So in this case it's 35.  Then with the -14 refresh for powers and stunts on the character gives a modified refresh of 21.  Which seems reasonable to me.
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: Belial666 on March 28, 2011, 04:36:16 PM
The ogre is fighting vs 7 submerged PCs and it's a trap. Here is what usually follows;

Wizard does an offensive block on the Ogre, blocking Perception (blinding it).
2 mortals firing with skill 5 weapon 3 shotguns, having aimed and spending 2-3 fate points each to hit plus +1 from the Ogre's hulking size with cold iron shot. Ogre is attacked with a to-hit roll of +14, weapon 3 and its dodge is 5. It takes 2x 12 stress which ignores its toughness.


This is at least 6 fate points to just survive the above attack. The party attacks from 2 zones away, which means the ogre must take at least 1 whole exchange to get into melee - and the party gets to do another full attack at it, possible with all members.
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: DFJunkie on March 28, 2011, 05:14:22 PM
I don't mean to derail, you did ask a specific question (and yes, the answer "X-1 where X is the number he'll need to just beat them" is pretty good) but is it possible that he could call in favors to get an assist from the Nevernever?  Even with three PCs I've had a lot of trouble with one BBEG taking on the party, and I imagine that seven fully prepped PCs will make short work of him.
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: zenten on March 28, 2011, 05:24:43 PM
Quote from: Belial666 on March 28, 2011, 04:36:16 PM
The ogre is fighting vs 7 submerged PCs and it's a trap. Here is what usually follows;

Wizard does an offensive block on the Ogre, blocking Perception (blinding it).
2 mortals firing with skill 5 weapon 3 shotguns, having aimed and spending 2-3 fate points each to hit plus +1 from the Ogre's hulking size with cold iron shot. Ogre is attacked with a to-hit roll of +14, weapon 3 and its dodge is 5. It takes 2x 12 stress which ignores its toughness.


This is at least 6 fate points to just survive the above attack. The party attacks from 2 zones away, which means the ogre must take at least 1 whole exchange to get into melee - and the party gets to do another full attack at it, possible with all members.

Lucky for the orge the PCs probably won't know what zone he's in until the fight starts.

Quote from: DFJunkie on March 28, 2011, 05:14:22 PM
I don't mean to derail, you did ask a specific question (and yes, the answer "X-1 where X is the number he'll need to just beat them" is pretty good) but is it possible that he could call in favors to get an assist from the Nevernever?  Even with three PCs I've had a lot of trouble with one BBEG taking on the party, and I imagine that seven fully prepped PCs will make short work of him.

Thing is, he doesn't know this is coming.  He thinks he's going to be taking out some bikers, who don't know much about the supernatural.  But he also won't be against running away once he realizes this is a trap, and the PCs are going to want to interrogate him to figure out why he's been doing what he's doing (and more importantly who pulled his strings to get him to do it).  Still, yeah, this has a good chance of being anticlimactic.
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: DFJunkie on March 28, 2011, 05:41:39 PM
Quote
(and more importantly who pulled his strings to get him to do it)

There you go.  I mean, if there is some sort of higher level to the antagonists,
(click to show/hide)
that higher up could send his/her own critters to save the ogre and/or kill the ogre before he spills his guts.  That actually works out even better, since if the PCs did a really good job setting this guy up they should take him down easily.  This way you encourage that sort of play but also get a big climactic confrontation, and can give the PCs a lead on the Ogre's boss, assuming the type of minions he/she/it sends are a hint.
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: zenten on March 28, 2011, 06:51:07 PM
Quote from: DFJunkie on March 28, 2011, 05:41:39 PM
There you go.  I mean, if there is some sort of higher level to the antagonists,
(click to show/hide)
that higher up could send his/her own critters to save the ogre and/or kill the ogre before he spills his guts.  That actually works out even better, since if the PCs did a really good job setting this guy up they should take him down easily.  This way you encourage that sort of play but also get a big climactic confrontation, and can give the PCs a lead on the Ogre's boss, assuming the type of minions he/she/it sends are a hint.

Or they can find out.  Since the one who sent it was one of the PC's father, it's not like the ones in the group that will want him dead for it will be able to easily.
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 28, 2011, 10:27:33 PM
21 fate points? Holy moly, that's a lot.

If I were you, I'd remove the catch of cold iron here. Otherwise the ogre will go down as soon as he gets hit.
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: Belial666 on March 29, 2011, 12:09:23 AM
That is not actually required. Assuming an advanced Ogre that is -16 refresh (4 higher than a normal Ogre), we can do interesting stuff that make it a tough opponent without giving it a ridiculously high amount of FP.

Skills:
This ogre is a lot smarter than the rest of its kind. Therefore, we give him full skill points for his refresh level and an appropriate skill cap. The following skills are rather appropriate for a smart Summer warrior and will come handy when we get to "powers";
Fantastic: Endurance, Deceit
Superb: Might, Weapons
Great: Alertness, Fists
Good: Conviction, Discipline, Presence
Fair: (whatever you want)
Average: (whatever you want)
Powers/stunts:
We are going to upgrade the Ogre's powers to have a more tricky as well as an overall tougher opponent. Here is the new power set. The changes are an upgrade to greater veils (this one is a tricky fae) and the change/improvement of his defense trapping via stunts;
Greater Glamours [–4]
Hulking Size [–2]
Inhuman Strength [–2]
Supernatural Toughness [–4]
Inhuman Recovery [–2]
The Catch [+3] is cold iron and the like.
Physical Immunity [–8]
The Catch (Stacked) [+5] only vs magic
Absorb Punishment (stunt)  - this ogre is really tough, even for its race. Rather than dodge blows in combat, it can shrug them off with sheer toughness. (defense trapping moved to endurance)
No Pain! (stunt) - unlike lesser beings that would give up in the face of pain, this ogre can ignore lesser wounds as if they had not happened at all. +2 to toughness rolls when used for defense.
Items:
The ogre is wearing ogre-sized full-plate. It might only be brass, not steel, but it's thick. Armor 3. And it is also carrying an ogre-sized warhammer that weighs a quarter ton. Weapon 4. Do note that those items are easy to hide despite their bulk due to the Ogre's greater glamours and that the armor's rating of 3 works just as well against cold iron as against anything else.



Tactics:
The ogre is under a greater veil in the human world. This not only allows it to avoid mortal notice but it also is under a strength 8 block against his opponents' perception. They will most probably not see it before it attacks and it can prepare for them instead of the reverse. In addition, greater glamours can do funny stuff with the opponents if you remain hidden. I.e. the Ogre can conjure an image of himself while it remains invisible and have the PCs spend their lined-up shots and their magic on the illusion. Then it has the illusion "die" and melt away. Then it conjures a second illusion for the PCs to spend even more ammo, FPs and magic on. By this time, one of the PCs might try a FP-enhanced and deliberate perception roll to find what's going on or the party's wizard might open up his Sight. No problem - the illusions wre there to absorb the ambush and the PCs' extra FPs and taggable aspects and they accomplished their goal. Real fight starts now;
The Ogre, when revealed, does not hesitate to wade into melee. Its attacks with its big hammer are weapon 6 total (for inhuman strength) and at superb skill. Not totally overwhelming against even squishy PCs but skilled enough to hit against defenses. On the other hand, its defense is at a whopping Legendary (either from greater glamour or from endurance), it has considerable armor and it is immune to direct magical attacks. Flavor-wise, you can describe it doing mirror image/displacement defense against the Sword of the Cross and the shotguns with cold iron shot since neither the mortal PCs nor the Knight of the Cross have The Sight, and toughs it out with the rest.


So, in the end, no need to just add huge amounts of FP to have a really memorable and tough fight. The right powers combined with the right tactics can get you there.
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: Tedronai on March 29, 2011, 12:33:26 AM
That'd be...
defending at +8, with armour 3
attacking at +5, with weapon:6
physical stress track of 10, with one extra dedicated mild consequence and able to 'shrug off' one mild physical consequence/scene
mental stress track of 4
social stress track of 4
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: Belial666 on March 29, 2011, 12:44:37 AM
Physical stress track of 10, not 8. It also gets a bonus from Hulking Size and as it can appear as whatever size it wants via veils, enemies take no bonus to hit unless they pierce it somehow.
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: Tedronai on March 29, 2011, 12:46:55 AM
ah, right, missed the Hulking Size
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 29, 2011, 01:47:10 AM
Huh, yes, that works too. Giving him mundane armour somehow didn't occur to me.

No Pain! might be a touch too strong, but since it's an NPC it doesn't really matter.
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: Tedronai on March 29, 2011, 02:07:18 AM
No Pain! is definitely on the very powerful side, even if evaluated as a supernatural power and not a stunt
As a stunt, it's plainly 'overpowered'

But, yes, on an NPC, that doesn't matter as much
at the most, it throws off the math a bit when you're trying to eyeball the NPC's power
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: Belial666 on March 29, 2011, 02:35:56 AM
Compare with Footwork (or equivalent) + True Strike (or equivalent) and a base Fists or Weapons of 6. Then the Ogre would be both attacking and defending at +7 at the same cost. Now it has a lower weapon/fists skill thus attacking at +5, with a tradeoff of defending at +8. Also keep in mind that due to Greater Glamours, the Ogre is under a power 8 veil that isn't pierced if discovered. To those without The Sight, it is already effectively defending at +8. The endurance stunts are there mostly for flavor - they don't change the mechanics much.


The effectiveness of powers and stunts can vary from case to case.
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: Tedronai on March 29, 2011, 03:06:08 AM
Well, yes, but then again, he could also spend a refresh on a homebrewed 'stunt' giving him +3 to guns attacks, with no other restrictions or stipulations, and as applied to his current skill list, it wouldn't significantly increase the threat he posed.  That wouldn't mean that a stunt giving +3 to guns attacks, in itself, is 'balanced'.
But that just goes back to the npc power-balancing comments.
The 'stunt' isn't a problem in this instance, because it's being applied to an npc, with a relatively small game impact in combination with the character's skill selections
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: zenten on March 29, 2011, 02:18:24 PM
Can an Ogre get Greater Glamours without becoming a sidhe?  I don't want him to be one, but if he can then that would work well.
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: sandchigger on March 29, 2011, 02:46:07 PM
I'm fairly certain the restriction on Greater Glamours is just "must be pure fae" so you can't be a Changeling and have it. Ogres, goblins, hell even pixies like Toot-Toot are all fair game for the power.
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: Belial666 on March 29, 2011, 02:51:40 PM
Precisely. Harry himself did not find it weird that an "ogre" had greater glamours in Summer Knight - if ogres could not have that power, lord Talos could never pass as one.
Title: Re: Figuring out the power level of an NPC
Post by: zenten on March 29, 2011, 03:01:20 PM
Sweet, thanks, this will make a big difference in the fight I think.