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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: kertain on March 23, 2011, 03:08:50 PM

Title: Ghost- PC?
Post by: kertain on March 23, 2011, 03:08:50 PM
Morning!

Kinda of a wierd question..but has anyone run a game with a PC as a ghost?
Starting a new game with new players and one of them asked me if it were possible for them to play as a ghost.

I understand in the universe ghosts are pretty limited in their interaction with the "real world", but if this ghost in his/her past life was magical perhaps they could interact consistently? If its not feasible, i thought as a compromise was he could be an Ectomancer that has a "ghost friend" to help him or something.

Any thoughts, suggestions ideas?
I imagine this will be hard thing to make a template for, but thought it was a neat idea and did not want to dismiss it outright.

-Kertain
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: DFJunkie on March 23, 2011, 03:31:25 PM
It's your game, so if you want the PC to play a ghost, the PC can play a ghost.

Thus far every ghost that's been introduced or discussed in the novels is an echo of thoughts and emotions, not a being with a will of its own.  However there's no reason your PC can't be an odd case, and be a being with a free will and (presumably) a soul.  Assuming he or she has enough points of refresh a ghost PC could be pretty cool.
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: zenten on March 23, 2011, 03:31:56 PM
I think you're looking at something that's basically non-canon (as in, there's no real hints on how to do it) until Ghost Stories comes out.
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: Tedronai on March 23, 2011, 03:44:09 PM
I've actually got a character right now that, if it ever comes to that, will probably end up spending their Death Curse to create and empower their own ghost such that it becomes as close to simply an incorporeal copy of their living self as possible.  I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future of that game, but if it does...
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: sinker on March 23, 2011, 04:31:08 PM
Quote from: zenten on March 23, 2011, 03:31:56 PM
I think you're looking at something that's basically non-canon (as in, there's no real hints on how to do it) until Ghost Stories comes out.

I was going to say.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: MacShidhe on March 23, 2011, 04:44:00 PM
Kravos is the only current example of a ghost with enough free will to be a PC that I could think of and even he was pretty focused on his goals.  
(click to show/hide)
if you think that it will fit in your campaign, go for it.
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: Haru on March 23, 2011, 04:56:25 PM
I think a Ghost-PC is a good idea. However, to keep in canon, you should tie the high concept and trouble aspects to the reason the person died and became a ghost. Once that reason is resolved, there should be nothing left to keep the ghost in our world. If the player is up for that, then go for it. You should however keep compelling him, if he tries to do things that are not tied to the reason he is still a ghost.
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: HumAnnoyd on March 23, 2011, 05:45:03 PM
I think it is possible to come up with a rationale for a Ghost PC.  Magic is very unpredictable and can cause all kinds of craziness.  For example:

My character was a young troublemaker who inadvertently released a Dennarion when he broke into his Warden father's vault to show off for his girlfriend.  She was possessed by a Denarrion when she picked up a coin and proceeded to start a ritual using my character and his sister as sacrifices.  Luckily his father had been alerted by a tripped ward and with the help of my PC drove her off.  Unfortunately, the father's spirit was stripped from his body (which lies in coma) and somehow bound into his Warden's sword. He haunts his repentant son who wields the Warden Sword and is doing his best to make up for his checkered past. 

Here is the write up my GM gave him:

JOHN FRANCIS YOUNGBLOOD JR.
TEMPLATE: SPECIAL
HIGH CONCEPT: MOSTLY DEAD WARDEN HERO
TROUBLE: MY SPIRIT IS TRAPPED IN MY SWORD, MY BODY IN THE HOSPITAL

ASPECT: I MAY NOT BE A GREAT DAD, BUT I LOVE MY KIDS

ASPECT: DID I FORGET TO TELL YOU…

ASPECT: LOOK AT THE LEGS ON THAT ONE

SKILLS (+39)
SUPERB +5: Presence, Contacts
GREAT +4: Discipline, Lore
GOOD +3: Conviction, Rapport, Weapons
FAIR +2: Athletics, Burglary, Stealth, Scholarship
AVERAGE +1: Deceit, Investigation, intimidate, Alertness

POWERS (-11)
SPIRIT FORM [-3]

THAUMATURGY [–3] (page 275)
SPECIALIZATION.
Anti-security magic Complexity Bonus +1.

Physical Immunity [–8]

The Catch 3]
Spirit magic and exorcism- Magic [1], everyone knows to use just about anything non-physical.
TOTAL REFRESH COST: 11
CURRENT REFRESH: 11

Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: devonapple on March 23, 2011, 05:54:28 PM
Quote from: HumAnnoyd on March 23, 2011, 05:45:03 PM
THAUMATURGY [–3] (page 275)
SPECIALIZATION.
Anti-security magic Complexity Bonus +1.

I notice that Dad's Spirit has Thaumaturgy but not Evocation. I would imagine that, as a Warden, he would have needed both, and that, as a Spirit, he would retain both or neither, but if there was a game reason to keep it that way, no problem.
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: HumAnnoyd on March 23, 2011, 06:00:01 PM
Quote from: devonapple on March 23, 2011, 05:54:28 PM
I notice that Dad's Spirit has Thaumaturgy but not Evocation. I would imagine that, as a Warden, he would have needed both, and that, as a Spirit, he would retain both or neither, but if there was a game reason to keep it that way, no problem.

I think the GM ruled that since he was of spirit he couldn't cast Evocations and used that refresh to give him the Spirit Form powers.  I imagine if he was a PC when all this went down he would be justified in rearranging his character to a great degree. 
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: devonapple on March 23, 2011, 06:02:29 PM
Quote from: HumAnnoyd on March 23, 2011, 06:00:01 PM
I think the GM ruled that since he was of spirit he couldn't cast Evocations and used that refresh to give him the Spirit Form powers.  I imagine if he was a PC when all this went down he would be justified in rearranging his character to a great degree. 

That makes sense. How has his ability to perform Thaumaturgy been handled?
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on March 23, 2011, 09:27:29 PM
Right now, the setting canon has ghosts as mere echoes of the person they were.

This might change in the future (I think it will) but have you thought "ghost-like" as opposed to ghost?

Say someone who tried to go out of body and got stuck?
Or a mystic accident that destroy someone's body and anchored his spirit to something?
Or a curse? Maybe a curse item?
Or something that a fairy did?
Or a magical weapon whose last victim haunts the owner (which would need a reason for why it's not used again)?

If you make the PC a unique, free willed spirit type then you make that PC more special while avoiding dealing with the rest of the ghost world.  If ghost wander and are free willed, them they would probably gather and talk - there are several games out there that are built around playing PC ghosts and all of them have setting info that handles NPC ghosts.  Making the PC a one off means you don't have to deal with those issues.

Of course, we might discover that everything I've written doesn't fit canon, but speculation on that belongs in the spoiler section.

Richard
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: HumAnnoyd on March 24, 2011, 05:37:54 AM
Quote from: devonapple on March 23, 2011, 06:02:29 PM
That makes sense. How has his ability to perform Thaumaturgy been handled?

So far it hasn't come up.  We have only played 4 sessions and he has mostly been busting my character's chops for not being a proper Warden and making it really hard for him to go on a date.   ;D
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: Wyrdrune on March 24, 2011, 01:23:15 PM
in our campaign we have a player who plays the ghost of the kitchen girl of a world war II russian submarine.
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: MacShidhe on March 24, 2011, 02:30:37 PM
Quote from: Wyrdrune on March 24, 2011, 01:23:15 PM
in our campaign we have a player who plays the ghost of the kitchen girl of a world war II russian submarine.

Pardon me, the WWII Soviet Front is one of my favorite history subjects so I'm going to take this on a minor tangent and go history geek for a moment.  I know that women served in combat in the Soviet Army during WWII but I didn't know there were women submariners as well.  I'm curious if the player had any scholarship to back the concept up or if it's something they just made up.  The book that was in sounds like a fun read.  :-)
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: kertain on March 24, 2011, 07:58:56 PM
Thanks guys!
Good ideas.

I was a little concerns on how to build him but that has been covered as well.
I like the idea of a disconnected spirit and will present that to the PC as well.

Keep up the ideas/suggestions if you have any :)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: HumAnnoyd on March 24, 2011, 08:40:57 PM
Quote
I like the idea of a disconnected spirit and will present that to the PC as well.

I think having his body in a coma also gives the Player something to worry about.  If anything happens to the body then what happens to the spirit?  Perhaps that could be his Trouble.
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: Wyrdrune on March 29, 2011, 06:33:18 AM
Quote from: MacShidhe on March 24, 2011, 02:30:37 PM
Pardon me, the WWII Soviet Front is one of my favorite history subjects so I'm going to take this on a minor tangent and go history geek for a moment.  I know that women served in combat in the Soviet Army during WWII but I didn't know there were women submariners as well.  I'm curious if the player had any scholarship to back the concept up or if it's something they just made up.  The book that was in sounds like a fun read.  :-)

no, we made that up, not basing it on any historic facts. if it ever becomes necessary to be fleshed out she could have been rescued from a sinking civilian vessel or something like that. (i can think of a lot of ways to end up on a military submarine.)
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: Team8Mum on March 29, 2011, 07:07:04 AM
My husbands greatgrandfather was 'rescued' during the early part of the second world war by a submarine after his ship was sunk by it. As the chief engineer on the ship he got to eat in the captains cabin and it was all very civilised. They were all dropped off in Spain and the British consulate arranged for them all to go home. We have an account written by him that appeared in the local paper about his experiences and how well he was treated as a prisoner.
By the end of the war all that had changed - U-boats no longer rescued survivors and he went down with the ship after returning to the engine room to try and get his men out.

lots of strange things ended up on submarines - like the reindeer
http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1880

back on topic - I have PC's ghosts wandering around Hangover city, but I also have a local 'reason' for that to happen which is part of the secret history of Liverpool. I'd say go for it and come up with a good justification as to why your guy is 'breaking the canon'
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: wednesdayboy on March 29, 2011, 02:40:23 PM
I think a ghost PC is a brilliant idea.  It's a character that I wanted to do for our game but it got nixed because of the disparities with ghosts in the books.  I'm biased because I've never read the books so I don't have a strong tie to the canon but to me in a world with magic and the supernatural practically any rationalization of why the character is a ghost is legitimate.
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on March 29, 2011, 07:35:35 PM
Just a note on women on Soviet subs:

The USSR used subs to evacuate women and children from Sevastapol when it was under seize during WWII.  Maybe in a non-historical setting the crew decided to keep one of them on board as a cook? Of course, this only helps if the sub in question was based in the Black Sea / Med area.  If it was in the Baltic Sea, or associated with the Murmansk runs, or in the Pacific, then she would need another excuse to be there.

Richard
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: sinker on March 29, 2011, 07:54:50 PM
Quote from: wednesdayboy on March 29, 2011, 02:40:23 PM
I think a ghost PC is a brilliant idea.  It's a character that I wanted to do for our game but it got nixed because of the disparities with ghosts in the books.  I'm biased because I've never read the books so I don't have a strong tie to the canon but to me in a world with magic and the supernatural practically any rationalization of why the character is a ghost is legitimate.

Really the concept of "canon" has always bugged me especially with dresden. Books can't cover the entirety of a world and with this series we are even more limited by it being Harry Dresden's perception of a world. To bring up an example (since I'm re-reading the series again) Harry didn't think Victor Sells' heart exploding spell was possible until more than half way through the book. Just because we haven't seen something in the books, and to be more precise because Harry hasn't seen something, doesn't mean it's not possible or even likely.
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: UmbraLux on March 29, 2011, 10:04:19 PM
He also doesn't tell us everything...and makes that clear in some cases.  :)

Given the forthcoming book, and the chapter of it already published on the web, I find it extremely difficult not to call ghosts canon in any case.
Title: Re: Ghost- PC?
Post by: devonapple on March 29, 2011, 10:32:31 PM
Quote from: UmbraLux on March 29, 2011, 10:04:19 PM
Given the forthcoming book, and the chapter of it already published on the web, I find it extremely difficult not to call ghosts canon in any case.

We are learning the way the universe works along with Dresden!

And really: do we need our heroes to be completely infallible and perfect?