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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: bestial warlust on March 19, 2011, 06:03:33 PM

Title: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: bestial warlust on March 19, 2011, 06:03:33 PM
I'd like to steal Vars idea  ;D from http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24720.0.html

But would like to focus on Spirit magic. Besides Veils what else can we use? Yes it covers mental magics but since that violates one of the laws I'd like too see what else can be done with it. I have a player thats interested in it but we're stumped as to what can be done with it besides veiling and law breaking mind magic.

1. What is a non-combat interesting way to use spirit magic?

2. What is a single target interesting way to use spirit magic?

3. What is an area of effect interesting way to use spirit magic?

4. What is an interesting way to block using spirit magic?

5. What would be an interesting way to impede someones movement with sprit magic?

6.Can you think of anything else that would fit the Dresdenverse and be really neat in a game for spirit magic?

Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: sinker on March 19, 2011, 06:25:00 PM
Quote from: bestial warlust on March 19, 2011, 06:03:33 PM
1. What is a non-combat interesting way to use spirit magic?

The simplest thing I can think of is light. Handy wizard flashlight. Spirit is also direct kinetic force so you could move things around. Bump stuff, make people think the place is haunted or something (oh hey, social attack/maneuver). You could also justify a wizard using raw ectoplasm with spirit. Can't for the life of me think of something to do with it that you couldn't do better with other methods. Also Ghosts. Things with ghosts.

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2. What is a single target interesting way to use spirit magic?

Wizard's Punch! Also throw things into people, smash things, etc. Flares for maneuvering. And I suppose you could, again throw raw ectoplasm at people but that seems weird.

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3. What is an area of effect interesting way to use spirit magic?

You could summon the vengeful ghosts of the many people slain in the house to destroy your foes!  Oh wait, it's been done. ;D

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4. What is an interesting way to block using spirit magic?

Hold them in place with YOUR MIND! Sorry. Light flashes work great here too.

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5. What would be an interesting way to impede someones movement with sprit magic?

As above with the holding them in place, or a really interesting way of describing it would be (and I'm no physicist but) dampening or draining the kinetic force applied. Ghosts work here too.

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6.Can you think of anything else that would fit the Dresdenverse and be really neat in a game for spirit magic?

Nothing's coming to mind at the moment and I have to go to work. Maybe thoughts later.
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: ways and means on March 19, 2011, 06:45:05 PM
1. What is a non-combat interesting way to use spirit magic?
Illusions you could make it so that the light all ways favours your good side and also magical fireworks and laser shows.

2. What is a single target interesting way to use spirit magic?
Severing the base of the spinal cord or other controlled and dangerous uses of force

3. What is an area of effect interesting way to use spirit magic?
Mass Light Field and Mass Dark Field, one for blinding your enemies and the others for those with night sight

4. What is an interesting way to block using spirit magic?
Light and darkness effects again

5. What would be an interesting way to impede someones movement with sprit magic?

Refracting the light in an area so you can't tell what your walking into 

6.Can you think of anything else that would fit the Dresdenverse and be really neat in a game for spirit magic?
Compulsions and soul effects (attacking someones soul directly)

Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: Quantus on March 19, 2011, 06:58:24 PM
If you primary concern is the Laws regarding mental magic there are several grey areas you could camp in.  Sleep spells are allowed.  Certain low level manipulation, like what harry used to make people steer clear of his storage locker.  Messing with the five senses, including veils, sense/awareness augmentation (like elaine's defenses), illusions and phantasms all seem more or less ok as long as they are not too invasive. 


Beyond that I think you best bet is focusing Spirit on the Spirit World (NN). This could be a few flavors:

-Summoning. Could be Ghosts, Loa, fae, Random beings of smoke and fire, etc. Basically give em a big notebook of NN contacts like harry has, for the social spiritualist.  You could spin it more to things like those NN sex fleas that the alpha's got that time.   

-NN travel and/or manipulation.  Portals for shields, like when Harry opened one to keep the cave-in off him.  A portal over somebody's head to that crystal Giza where sunbeams are like lasers.   Thinning the boundary in an area to make selective changes to the field, like making gunpowder not work, or gravity act different, or air to be as thick as water to move through. 

Ectoplasm specialist, a Shaper of sorts, who is able to pull any basic thing he can imagine out of the proverbial hat.  Or a literal hat if you want

The possibilities are almost literally limitless, just as limitless as the NN itself  :)
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: Haru on March 19, 2011, 07:52:10 PM
I think anything along the lines of kinetic force, light, audio is fair game. Thus:

1. Maneuvers like "soundless steps" or a whole bubble that eliminates sound. Molly's one woman rave is probably also a spirit spell (and it has been used more in a non combat style). You could also try things like hearing someone talk that is too far away to hear or transmit your voice to a location of your choosing.

2. Any kind of veil to the senses, like blocking out sound, blinding someone, making them not smell the poison in their coffee, that kind of stuff. You could create illusions, but as a single target spell, that is probably not that far from breaking the law. Or, if you are operating in a team, take out the light in the room first and then illuminate your enemies for your friends to take out.

3. Well, anything that can be done to one person can be done to a zone. Light up/darken a zone, take away the zones ability to transmit sound or have any sound that enters the zone increased by a whole lot, so that it practically is a sonic weapon.

4. You can block sight, so nobody will even be able to attack you. Sound, so nobody will hear you sneak around. Instead of a standard "Forcefield" spell, you could create a poltergeist "shield": things around you will just jump up, fall off shelves, topple over, etc. to intercept attacks made at you. Especially strong if you have a scene aspect representing some stuff that's lying around (think of a fight inside a library, endless supply or armor-books). Or you could create some holographic duplicates of yourself that run around and distract the enemy for the same purpose.

5. On a kind of silly note: if you have a practitioner that is more along the line of subtle magic, tie their shoelaces. Or limit the friction of their shoes, they won't be able to walk anywhere without hitting the floor every single step (I experienced that first hand a couple weeks ago. No magic, of course, but the whole street was one large sheet of ice.). A Poltergeist-spell comes to mind again, throwing obstacles in the way of everyone moving in a zone.

Hope that helps a bit :)
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: ways and means on March 19, 2011, 07:53:13 PM
Audio is air magic not spirit.
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: Haru on March 19, 2011, 07:55:54 PM
The book says some things can fall into more than one category, to me audio fits more into spirit than air, but air would work just as well, of course.
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: bestial warlust on March 19, 2011, 08:05:26 PM
What about the application of spirit magic manipulating "raw" magical energy as an aspect of force. such a as spell that "burns" a target but not with fire but magic energy.
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: UmbraLux on March 19, 2011, 08:09:14 PM
Quote from: bestial warlust on March 19, 2011, 06:03:33 PM
But would like to focus on Spirit magic. Besides Veils what else can we use? Yes it covers mental magics but since that violates one of the laws I'd like too see what else can be done with it.
Here are a few ideas...not necessarily Law abiding.
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: sinker on March 19, 2011, 08:27:46 PM
Quote from: Haru on March 19, 2011, 07:52:10 PM
have any sound that enters the zone increased by a whole lot, so that it practically is a sonic weapon.

Oooh, now I have this idea for a ninja-like character who wears bells/similar for the whole silent moving training sort of thing and then amplifies them for attacks.
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: bestial warlust on March 19, 2011, 08:29:38 PM
"◦Depression, Fear, Insanity, and other emotional / mental effects"

Would this not violate the law of magic? or since this is more of a gentle nudge and not complete mental manipulation be more of a "gray" area?
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: Tedronai on March 19, 2011, 08:41:16 PM
Quote from: bestial warlust on March 19, 2011, 08:29:38 PM
"◦Depression, Fear, Insanity, and other emotional / mental effects"

Would this not violate the law of magic? or since this is more of a gentle nudge and not complete mental manipulation be more of a "gray" area?

See the note at the top of that list?

Quote from: UmbraLux on March 19, 2011, 08:09:14 PM
Here are a few ideas...not necessarily Law abiding.

emphasis added
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: ways and means on March 19, 2011, 08:43:53 PM
Would soul/spirit disrupting magic break any of the laws of magic if it is not fatal? I was wondering because I usually model the nastier spirit magic as necromancy that does mental damage.
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: Quantus on March 19, 2011, 10:11:47 PM
Quote from: ways and means on March 19, 2011, 08:43:53 PM
Would soul/spirit disrupting magic break any of the laws of magic if it is not fatal? I was wondering because I usually model the nastier spirit magic as necromancy that does mental damage.
Sure.  Most of the laws don't need killing (except the one against killing of course).  Mind-reading, Thralling, and forceful shapeshifting could all be done without killing the target.  Time travel (which I think would be firmly spirit) and Outer Gates knowledge aren't really targeted things.  And loopholes notwithstanding, the necromancy law is more about the fact that it is a whole different energy type than normal magic. 

Question:  Are you concerned about the Laws in the legal sense of council enforcement etc, or the twist your mind and tainting your soul effect it has on the user.  Because the former allows far more in terms of what a caster could get away with.
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: ways and means on March 19, 2011, 10:17:01 PM
I meant that there was no direct law against interacting with other peoples souls/spirit only thier minds This leaves a whole bunch of options for very dark evil spells that are not tecniqually against the laws.
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: UmbraLux on March 19, 2011, 10:47:07 PM
Quote from: bestial warlust on March 19, 2011, 08:29:38 PM
Would this not violate the law of magic? or since this is more of a gentle nudge and not complete mental manipulation be more of a "gray" area?
The bad guys need spells also!  ;)

Quote from: ways and means on March 19, 2011, 10:17:01 PM
I meant that there was no direct law against interacting with other peoples souls/spirit only thier minds This leaves a whole bunch of options for very dark evil spells that are not tecniqually against the laws.
There are gray areas, where those lines are drawn will differ from one group to another.  That said, the second (transformation*) and fifth (necromancy) laws also apply.  Too much direct manipulation of a victim's spirit will cross one of those sooner or later...

*Transformation isn't necessarily physical - that's just what is easiest to spot.
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: Tedronai on March 19, 2011, 11:31:58 PM
What does soul-damaging magic DO, though, if not potentially kill the subject, destroy their mind, and/or transform them into something other than what they were?
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: UmbraLux on March 19, 2011, 11:50:24 PM
Define "soul" for me and I might have an answer!   ;)

More seriously, it's going to come down to individual groups and how they describe things.  I'd say you probably won't ever destroy the soul itself with most human magic but you can destroy (or loosen, damage, move, etc) its ties to the body.  You can also affect a victim's access to or control over inherent powers. 
(click to show/hide)
  I'd also say you can tempt a soul towards corruption.  Denarians and Vampires do this as a matter of course. 
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: Vars on March 20, 2011, 01:14:07 AM
Guys, while I see how this relates to the topic it isn't on topic. If you want to discuss the ins and outs of whether magic is gray, black, or polka dotted please do so in another thread. I made these threads, and I hope this thread was made in the same thought, to help flesh out magic ideas not whether it broke the laws. There are a ton of threads on that, I wanted and I think the thread creator here wants, ideas for how to use the magic thematically. Sorry if I'm coming off as rude, but this isn't what I was looking for. That being said....

Patience grasshopper! lol. I was planning on making a new thread for spirit magic (I call this force because I think spirit sounds wierd) tonight but you beat me to it bestial warlust! I was having trouble choosing between spirit and air and you helped lol! Anyway, I absolutely LOVE force magic. I think it is the most versatile and handy of all the elements for one simple fact, you can do anything that another element can do....AND ITS INVISIBLE!

Here are a few things I've done that I think are pretty nifty with force magic....

1. What is a non-combat interesting way to use spirit magic?

Well, the obvious ones are the light/darkness effects and viels that everyone else mentions. Force magic also has some really neat applications when you think about it because ALL the symbiotic ties that link stuff together in dresdenverse are made of spirit/force magic. So, you coule take a tie that someone left behind like say a napkin with lipstick on it from their mouth, strengthen that tie to the point where you could cast at them through the link.

Another use for force magic is stated in the series as "holomancy" or illusions. Now, for those of you who are scifi fans you will know what a hard light hologram is. Its a hologram that can interact with its environment. I have made these before to even the numbers in a fight, to make someone lose me when being followed, and to make targeting me almost impossible in a fight. Also remember that you don't have to make them of people. How bad would it be if the get away driver accidently drove over a "bridge" and ended up in his van down by the river!

2. What is a single target interesting way to use spirit magic?

If you want to target a single person in combat the most direct method I can come up with is either the old force punch/grip (think Darth Vader) or my personal favorite the expanding force bubble in their head.

3. What is an area of effect interesting way to use spirit magic?

When you absolutely, positively, have to kill every person in the area nothing is more devestating than spirit/force magic. Fire magic and the rest are great for hurting people, spirit kills them. Think soulfire guys, if you get rid of their spirit they die, just like if you use to much of it with soulfire. The most ridiculously horrible attack would be like that guy in the books that waves his hand and people just fall over. Great kill ration, no collateral damage.

Another thing would be to do a layover of what a wizard sees with the sight. Think about 50 mooks chasing down your wizard who ends up in a dead end (no pun intended), the mage reaches out and creates an illusion of exactly what you would see with the sight and lays it over the immediate area. If it doesn't drive the guys bonkers it at least stuns them long enough to get away.

4. What is an interesting way to block using spirit magic?

My favorite block in the game is from force. You let the person attack you and then create a force funnel that redirects and amplifies the attack by giving it kinetic energy. It only works once but it surprises the hell out of him when his own fireball hits him in the face.

Another great idea for blocking with force magic is duh....FORCEFIELDS!

5. What would be an interesting way to impede someones movement with sprit magic?

Force wall maze....whats worse than a maze? AN INVISIBLE MAZE! BWHAHAHA

Force Cages       

One thing I have been wanting to use but haven't had a chance to use yet is something that amplifies a certain emotion. before you start shouting about breaking the laws, I am thinking about it being set to an area, not a person, so that it would be more like Harry and the others making someplace dreary or frightening.

One way to single target impede movements is with judicious applications of force ribbons that wrap around the person. I've also done this in an iron maiden design that worked well.

6.Can you think of anything else that would fit the Dresdenverse and be really neat in a game for spirit magic?

Most of the really neat stuff Harry does is with spirit magic I would say. Almost all tracking spells, summonings, necromancy (which as long as it doesn't raise people is legal), illusions, light/darkness effects, force fields, kinetic energy, lasers, and concussion explosions come out of spirit. Like I said, its my favorite!
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: toturi on March 20, 2011, 02:24:01 AM
One application of spirit spells I see is in zone-wide precision takedown - an area attack that affects only specific types of targets.
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: Vars on March 20, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
OH! I forgot to put this on the list as well under blocks....

Spirit Armor - this could be simple kinetic energy dampening to reduce the velocity of bullets and weapons or it could be a totally different shield that protects you and your mind/soul from some stuff like life sucking succubi for example, or as the dresdenverse calls them White Court vampires!

Also alot of the healing in the game can be attributed to spirit/force magic. Basically your working with life concentrate so it helps others heal faster.

Shapechanging could also be labeled under spirit magic as you could alter the form of your spirit and it would be refelcted in a new form for your body. Not quite sure how native american joe does it but he was choke full of spirit for sure.
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: My Dark Sunshine on March 20, 2011, 10:54:52 AM
Nice ideas from everyone. Vars, whilst your list is extensive I feel it important to point out there is a difference between 'Force Magic', and 'Spirit Magic'. The former is merely a subsection of the latter. I bring this up only as it leads onto my main point:

Yes, whilst spirit magic is arguably the most diverse of the elements, there is one thing most people overlook. As spirit magic most closely relates to the users will; its options are actually more limited then people realise. Take Harry & Molly for example; they represent what I mean perfectly. The former is potent when it comes to 'pure force' effects, but his veils and subtle magics leave much to be desired. Molly being the flip side of the coin.

This is not to say that each and every Wizard will have one of the two temperaments; but the Wizard's personality should certainly be considered when deciding what type of magic he would conjure more efficiently with any magic, especially Spirit magic. Yes; an aspect relating to this can actually be a blessing. Fate rewards you for such disadvantages- even if the rewards of a more interesting character weren't enough.

Just something to consider.
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: UmbraLux on March 20, 2011, 02:34:53 PM
Quote from: My Dark Sunshine on March 20, 2011, 10:54:52 AM
Vars, whilst your list is extensive I feel it important to point out there is a difference between 'Force Magic', and 'Spirit Magic'. The former is merely a subsection of the latter.
This is worth remembering.  Too narrow a focus and you lose sight of other possibilities.  

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I bring this up only as it leads onto my main point:

Yes, whilst spirit magic is arguably the most diverse of the elements, there is one thing most people overlook. As spirit magic most closely relates to the users will; its options are actually more limited then people realise. Take Harry & Molly for example; they represent what I mean perfectly. The former is potent when it comes to 'pure force' effects, but his veils and subtle magics leave much to be desired. Molly being the flip side of the coin.

This is not to say that each and every Wizard will have one of the two temperaments; but the Wizard's personality should certainly be considered when deciding what type of magic he would conjure more efficiently with any magic, especially Spirit magic. Yes; an aspect relating to this can actually be a blessing. Fate rewards you for such disadvantages- even if the rewards of a more interesting character weren't enough.
I agree.  It really applies to all elements.  Two things drive it:  mechanically, Aspects will boost spells matching your personality while potentially limiting (via compels) other spells.  The second limitation is imagination, a point Harry makes more than once.
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This relates back to possibilities mentioned in a previous post:  Spirit potentially affects Power use.  Blocks are fairly obvious (though potentially Law breaking).  You could block a wizard's ability to cast spells or prevent a type of spell from being cast in an area at all.  (The second brings up options for other versions of neutral ground.)  Blocking glamours, while more difficult, is also an option.  Blocking sponsored magics may or may not be possible - probably depending on whether you see the user as accessing the magic or the sponsor as sending it.  Items of Power and inherent magics are more problematic - how much is spirit and how much is physical?

Moving beyond blocks, Maneuvers could temporarily enhance a power.  Though I'm not sure it's worth it mechanically.  (A declaration won't cost a spell and action yet has the same effect.)  If you decide to enhance power, maneuvers like "Abundant Power", "Easy Power", and "Pooled Power" could represent using Spirit to draw power for later use.  Other options include "Shielded from Power Burn" to represent shielding your psyche from stress caused by drawing power (allows you to draw +2 power, doesn't avoid stress entirely) and "Chaotic Power" to lessen power use in an area.
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: sinker on March 20, 2011, 05:20:25 PM
Quote from: UmbraLux on March 19, 2011, 11:50:24 PM
Define "soul" for me and I might have an answer!   ;)

There is a convenient parallel in the dresdenverse. Often one's magic is equated to one's soul, and
(click to show/hide)
soulfire is directly tied with the soul. Just thoughts, not conclusions.
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: Vars on March 20, 2011, 08:18:16 PM
I totally agree with you guys on the two sides of the same coin thing. I don't play a subtle character, I play a power slinging warden so I gravitate toward alot of the more Harry type of spirit. Others need to decide what they want their characters to do. Again though, this is just about spit balling ideas so a wizard can look at the list and say "this is neat, I hadn't thought of this, and it fits my toon" and then use it in game. I have trouble with on the fly stuff unless it lends itself to my play style, hence the list and trying to expand my options.
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: Richard_Chilton on March 21, 2011, 08:07:57 AM
We have a character that started out with Spirit Channeling, with his main focus being a green ring... Yes, sounds like he made a Green Lantern knock off - but he actually made a teenage comic book geek who had been half trained and whose worldview was shaped by comics.  No, the character wasn't as effective as the Green Lantern, but he enjoys the concept.

Richard
Title: Re: Spirit Magic Brain Storming
Post by: crusher_bob on March 21, 2011, 09:51:39 AM
Spirit magic also covers instant summoning type magic.  In the book, iirc, both Justin and snakeboy use spirit magic to produce instant biting snakes.

1. What is a non-combat interesting way to use spirit magic?

Instant fire fighting slime, distracting or entertaining illusions, instant cardboard box to hide in (for a few seconds, anyway), having a bunch of (illusionary) homies that have your back, a magical windbreak that lets you light your cigarette up without getting your lighter blow out, something to keep the rain off long enough to dash across the street

2. What is a single target interesting way to use spirit magic?

Masses of suddenly appearing biting snakes, anvils that fall out of the sky,

3. What is an area of effect interesting way to use spirit magic?

masses of writing tentacles that appear out of the ground,

4. What is an interesting way to block using spirit magic?

A redshirt appears momentarily and soaks up the attack :D

5. What would be an interesting way to impede someones movement with sprit magic?

slippery slime, suddenly appearing caltrops