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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: rpmarsh on March 18, 2011, 08:16:12 PM

Title: Wardens are not the cops
Post by: rpmarsh on March 18, 2011, 08:16:12 PM

I have looked around and tried to the best of my knowledge the Wardens and and White council seem to only care about magic users. That being said I am running a game where evil is attacking the homeless and passing victims only to have a player ask a warden to stop it. All I could think of replying was: "Are they part of the Council?"

Is there any instance besides Harry for Wizards to help mortals from the supernatural?

Is the White Council/Wardens protective of humanity as a whole?

Would the Unseelie Accords stop wizards from outright attacking vampires, nickle heads, fey, and other such supernaturals attacking mortals?

Title: Re: Wardens are not the cops
Post by: ways and means on March 18, 2011, 08:24:41 PM

oh

Title: Re: Wardens are not the cops
Post by: knnn on March 18, 2011, 08:30:58 PM

A reasonable description of the responsibility of the Wardens can be found in Dead Beat when Harry becomes one:

"What does it mean"

"That it will be your job to protect mortals in this area.  To be vigilant against supernatural threats in your region, and to represent the Council in matters of diplomacy" 

Title: Re: Wardens are not the cops
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 18, 2011, 08:35:08 PM

A certain group of Wardens was rather protective of a certain group of children in that book with the thing that ended in -hallow. (There, was that vague enough to avoid spoiler tags?)

As I see it, Wardens have no responsibility to protect normal people. But they often will anyway, because they are (mostly) decent people with the power to do so.

Title: Re: Wardens are not the cops
Post by: rpmarsh on March 18, 2011, 08:45:01 PM

I can see working against a Warlock and protecting people as well but how do politics come into play. Can a warden attack a vampire for feeding?

Title: Re: Wardens are not the cops
Post by: ways and means on March 18, 2011, 08:52:46 PM

Quote from: rpmarsh on March 18, 2011, 08:45:01 PM

I can see working against a Warlock and protecting people as well but how do politics come into play. Can a warden attack a vampire for feeding?

That is somewhat the point of the accords to regulate supernatural interaction, I recon red court vampires can feed within given areas or territories but there are probably restrictions on numbers of victims and the numbers of new recruits etc to stop the humans finding out.

Title: Re: Wardens are not the cops
Post by: Bruce Coulson on March 18, 2011, 09:00:18 PM

Now a line from Gilbert and Sullivan comes to mind: "A Warden's lot is not a happy one..."

Then the image of Morgan singing and dancing.

Wardens are charged with enforcing the 7 Laws.  They also are expected to defend against supernatural menaces.  And not to create political waves by attempting to stop monsters who are protected under the Accords. And handle other duties that may be assigned to them by the Senior Council.

And it's very rare that anyone is ever happy to see them.

Title: Re: Wardens are not the cops
Post by: EdgeOfDreams on March 18, 2011, 09:07:51 PM

I get the impression that different wardens have different interpretations of their job.  Some are nothing more than warlock-hunters, out to enforce the seven Laws.  Others take a more benevolent stance, acting almost like the local wizard version of a classic superhero.  In other words, some are The Punisher, some are Spiderman.

I definitely think it'd be easier to figure some of this out if we had better understanding of the accords.  I'd love to get some answers to questions like "Can a member of one faction kill a member of another faction without causing an inter-faction incident if no other aspects of the accords (rules of hospitality, dueling rules, etc.) were violated?"  Cases like self-defense, defense of a mortal, etc. come to mind.

Title: Re: Wardens are not the cops
Post by: sinker on March 18, 2011, 09:46:57 PM

I would put money on the idea that the accords do not protect mortals from the monsters but do protect the monsters from the mortals. Seems like a really stupid idea to make it illegal to follow your own nature when you're writing the laws.

I imagine that if the white council can claim a mortal (I.E. a mortal with some sort of power, even if it's a tiny bit) then they can probably call foul under the accords, but otherwise not so much. For that matter we have a convenient example in the books in the way of the Susan/Bianca/Harry situation.

(click to show/hide)

Bianca preyed on a pure mortal, Harry responded with violence and the Red Court took it as an unprovoked act of war under the accords.

Sounds like an answer to that question.

Title: Re: Wardens are not the cops
Post by: Tedronai on March 18, 2011, 10:10:19 PM

And the direct aggression Harry was shown at that little shindig was labeled as self-defense, covering that angle as well.

Title: Re: Wardens are not the cops
Post by: Bruce Coulson on March 18, 2011, 10:20:06 PM

That would be the political angle that wardens would have to be aware of.

Solitary predators who aren't protected by the Accords are out of luck; predators who are signatories can claim diplomatic immunity.  Of course, that can cut both ways; if minor talents, or even vanilla mortals, manage to figure out what's been killing them, band together and start attacking, the Wardens can stand on the sidelines and eat popcorn.  And if the Wardens had dropped a few hints on where to look, well...sure, there might be some grousing, but technically the Wardens didn't take any action...

Title: Re: Wardens are not the cops
Post by: Eldritch Donut on March 19, 2011, 07:03:25 AM

In White Night

(click to show/hide)

Harry talks to Lara Raith about the mortals being used as fodder for the convocation. Lara assures Harry the mortals were willing victims. Lara also assures Harry the faeries were trespassers on their territories.

Under the accords, the white council is tasked with defending mortals against attacks by supernatural entities. They are forbidden from involvement with mortal politics - See Turn Coat.

In the short story Restoration of Faith Harry has a conversation with the bad guy to the effect

(click to show/hide)

Trolls do not have the right to take any mortals save 'naughty children.'

suggesting there are specifics set forth in the accords which designate what supernatural powers are entitled to do 'legally.'

Title: Re: Wardens are not the cops
Post by: Katarn on March 19, 2011, 04:22:06 PM

Quote from: knnn on March 18, 2011, 08:30:58 PM

"What does it mean"

"That it will be your job to protect mortals in this area.  To be vigilant against supernatural threats in your region, and to represent the Council in matters of diplomacy" 

This sticks with me.  I think Accord members have immunity (since vampire have a right to "live", and such, a right to basic feeding), so Wardens are supposed to uphold the 7 Laws.  Killing with magic (ie most warlocks) immediately fall into this radar.  Other non-Accord supernatural predators would fall under the loose guidelines "to protect mortals... against supernatural threats."

In the respect of protecting people, some (like Dresden) take that aspect very seriously, but most if not all would defend someone if the situation allows it (ie the -hallow book).

So in short Wardens AREN'T that difference from cops.  It's more a matter of jurisdiction, and how hard the hammer of the law falls on wrong-doers.

Title: Re: Wardens are not the cops
Post by: rpmarsh on March 21, 2011, 06:33:35 PM

I like the idea that there are differing interpretations of the job and to make sure the players do not go to the wardens to solve all the problems I will have to stick with the "Unless it involves a wizard then it is not my problem." type of warden, at least until they can find a way to get around him.

Title: Re: Wardens are not the cops
Post by: Bruce Coulson on March 21, 2011, 06:46:52 PM

Well, if the Wardens are like cops...then they're never around when you need them, only when you don't want to see them.

And the impression I got was that Wardens were never that common; there was always more work for them to do than they had Wardens.  (Again, much like police.)  For any story, the Wardens just aren't available (or won't arrive until long after things are over).

Title: Re: Wardens are not the cops
Post by: sinker on March 21, 2011, 09:24:14 PM

It occurs to me that if you're really having issues with the players looking to the wardens to solve problems you could point out to them what that would look like.

Player: "We call in the wardens."
GM: "The wardens solve all the problems, although not likely to all of your satisfaction. Well, that was fun. Goodnight everyone, drive safe."

To be serious though, if your players are trying to have someone else solve the problems then it seems like they might be having issues getting involved. That's a problem that can be resolved by sitting down with your group and talking to them about what would get them excited. Do they need a personal angle/reason to be involved? Are they feeling lost/do they need more info? Do they want to be doing something else?

Title: Re: Wardens are not the cops
Post by: devonapple on March 21, 2011, 09:37:02 PM

As an outside example: in "Call of Cthulhu," investigators delay calling in the mortal authorities until absolutely necessary, for a few good reasons. 1) The mortal authorities are usually woefully unequipped to deal with a given supernatural threat, and 2) this lack of understanding may mean that the investigators get locked up, unable to oppose the evil force they were facing.

While reason 1 usually doesn't apply to the Wardens, reason 2 is still a fine motivator. DFRPG protagonists are routinely set up to look suspicious, and well-intending but thorough Wardens can easily tie up a player group while precious time trickles by. Most groups are probably motivated to avoid the Wardens simply out of a sense of self-preservation: it is easier to face a tribunal when the mystery has been solved.