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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Jancarius on March 14, 2011, 08:02:06 AM

Title: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Jancarius on March 14, 2011, 08:02:06 AM
Hi.  My group and I recently picked up the Dresden Files RPG after the majority of our gaming group has started reading the series.  We have three players who haven't read the series (through Changes), 3 who have, and 1 whose back at Dead Beat or so.  When we were sitting down and making characters, the 'in the know' players decided to stick one of the players who hasn't read the book with Tarsiel's Denarian coin.  I had him keep his refresh high so that I could drop a power or two on him without removing his character to the NPC pool.  The other party members are a midget girl werewolf, a changeling girl half-pixie (and when I asked "how did that work... physically?" we just decided to go with magic), a Kincaid-expy (except without the half-demon part), a native american shaman/anthropology student, a 'paintomancer', a Catholic Priest White Court Virgin, and a until recently clueless bartender who has Tarsiel's silver coin.

Now there, are a couple things I kind of had some questions about, and at least one I guess only Jim could really answer for sure, but if you don't mind the info dump, I'd appreciate the hand.

1) How does it work when multiple people handle a Denarian coin?  The bartender got the coin when a guy (another Denarian) paid his tab with it, intentionally delivering it to him.  He showed it to the Kincaid-expy, who handled it briefly before handing it back.  Now, for the time being, I assumed the coin has one particular person it's 'intended' for at a time, so I didn't have Tarsiel leave a little piece of himself in the Kincaid-expy's head.  Though in retrospect, it might consider him a better possession target, but I didn't want to take away the concept from the other player.  But say he passed it around the bar... what would happen then?

2)  Similarly, I am having Tarsiel essentially pose as a completely helpful angel.  The player knows somethings up, because we are all practically giggling about him having the coin, and I as a DM never just give away freebies like that.  Tarsiel is basically pushing the character to keep getting involved in more and more supernatural stuff, and when he does, his main resource is to call upon Tarsiel's power and knowledge.  As he gets more dependent on it, I presume it both gradually increases Tarsiel's influence over him, and his own natural inclination to resort to angel powers when in danger.  At some critical moment, Tarsiel brings out the stick ("Oh, you don't want that sidhe to freeze your heart in your chest?  Then I guess you'll have to let me take over") and bam, Denarian.  Is this how it is generally understood to work?  And is it too long term a plan to experience the drawbacks (IE, in the same way the Wizard's Constitution is a 0 cost power because it's effect on gameplay is virtually null)?

3) In our first case file (http://thegamesweplay.net/ The Bad Dog case files posts), I generally feel everything went pretty well except the final confrontation with the sin eater spirit.  Short version: They forced a spiritual creature to manifest in it's physical form (a huge dog) to kill it and so that it wouldn't affect their spirits when it attacked back.  During this fight, the changeling tried to use her glamor powers a couple different ways.  First, she tried to use it to blind the dog.  I was okay with this, but it seemed weird that since she was basically making a maneuver, the dogs blindness only mattered when people had fate points to spend.  Then, she tried to make duplicates of the Kincaid-expy, as he was the one it was focused on, and it bypassed it by using the smell of blood from a consequence he had taken.  I know it made the player feel kinda useless, and I didn't really like the functionality of "well, you can make veils and illusions, but they only work kinda."  Did we misinterpret how much she can do with the glamor power, or did I misunderstand aspects/maneuvers?

4) Related note: Consequences seem to greatly extend a fight without reducing fight capacity, besides just making easily invoked aspects.  The dog was one turn away from inflicting an extreme consequence on the Kincaid-expy when they finally dropped it, because it's 'Bruised Ribs' 'Bullet wounds' and 'Shattered Leg' didn't really affect it in a material way after the aspects had each been invoked once (and they can only be invoked once per scene, yes?).  I also am a bit iffy on giving fate points for invoking consequence aspects, on account of it being something of an entirely negative aspect. 

5) The Kincaid expy brought to my immediate and fore attention what just one player with very high resources can do to a game.  It reminded me of WoD games where the one Ventrue vampire basically bankrolled the coterie.  In this case, the Kincaid-expy is the owner of the bartender's bar, regularly employees the midget werewolf as a research assistant/tracker, and is armed to the teeth with high-grade military weapons and armor.  I know hte other players don't want him to just solve every problem by shooting it with the right bullets (I denied him the knowledge of depleted uranium rounds affecting spirit creatures on the basis he hadn't come up against it before, and he doesn't have Bob to tell him these things when he does).  Am I being over concerned here, or should I just find ways to hastle his armory/bank accounts so he doesn't feel like he can just buy a replacement suit of advanced armor after his gets torn up, no problem?

6) Coming from 3.5 and 4.0 D&D, I am having some difficulty deciding on what I really feel are good guidelines for difficulties.  Anyone have advice on this?
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on March 14, 2011, 08:56:20 AM
   As far as question one, I'd say, since the Denarai are based thematically on the one ring, that it would try to corrupt all who touched it equally. It might have a target it would prefer over another, but it would take whatever it got to get out and moving in the world (besides, there's always time to work on the preferred target more directly once its out). I'd support this by pointing out that the first step in the temptation is to set up a shadow of itself within the targets subconscious. Since this shadow acts independently, and doesn't even require a line of power to the fallen itself, this basically comes down to a single spell that costs the Fallen next to nothing to cast.
   After that, it doesn't even need to (though probably still will) try to ensnare the Kincaid guy. It can focus on the bartender (its chosen host), while its shadow independently works on the Kincaid guy as a backup, to hedge its bets.

2) not necessarily. remember that some hosts work willingly with their fallen. If the Demon can corrupt the bartender to the point that he's willing to work with it, then it might be fine with the proposition (as long as he's carrying the coin, it gets what it wants either way). Either way, whether the Bartender becomes an evil co-conspirator, or a mindless slave, the change comes at the moment he has accepted enough powers from the Fallen to run him out of refresh.
   At that point, he becomes a full Denarian(and an NPC), no longer fighting against the fallen. The Fallen may roleplay instances to trick him into accepting the full power (thus speeding the descent), or it may temporarily take control of him as a consequence of one of his free compels garnered by hellfire use. But if the Fallen is pretending to be an angel (and keeping in mind that the Fallen are infinitely smarter than us), it will probably not be so heavy handed in how it corrupts him. It will likely play the part of the friendly helper, right up to the end (think like Lash. She was very good at being subtle in her corruption).

4) Not at all. Consequences are Aspects. When you inflict a consequence, you get a free tag on it (can invoke it once for free), but any PC, from then on, can invoke it any time he wants (but only once per action), as long as he's willing to pay the fate (the downside being he's giving those Fate points to the target).

5) I wouldn't worry about it. Look at Marcone. He can come up with any crap he needs without problem, but 1) it takes time, and 2) he has to have a reason to do it/ to know he needs it.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: admiralducksauce on March 14, 2011, 03:03:42 PM
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'Bruised Ribs' 'Bullet wounds' and 'Shattered Leg'

Consequences can also be compelled.  I know that it's kind of weird to compel "your" bad guy with its consequences, but when you decree that the dog can't get in range to chomp the Kincaidalike because of its wounds, that's a compel and the dog gets a FATE Point.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: luminos on March 14, 2011, 06:34:46 PM
Denarians:  I'd give everyone that touched the coin a shadow.  As a GM, I'd have said to the players something along the lines of "are you sure you want to have your character handle that?", just to hedge against a group splitting misunderstanding, but otherwise, let the Denarian started sewing the seeds for all kinds of plans within each person.  Of course, only one person can take up the coin, and doing so would give them access to much greater power, along with a lot more temptation than Harry had to deal with.  So who ends up with the coin at the end could be an interesting story in itself.

The temptation plan looks sound.  If the denarian grants a character use of powers, such as hellfire, then of course that costs refresh.  If a character actually takes up the coin, you might push the Demonic Copilot power on the character.  You should also heavily, heavily encourage (perhaps make it a requirement) a coin holder to take an aspect related to the Denarian.  This aspect is what you compel to have the demon offer its temptations.

Glamours:  As far as I'm concerned, you allowed the player to do a lot more with glamours than is strictly by the book.  Glamours grants veils, personal disguises, and the ability to create small fake objects, like a class ring or an I.D. badge.  If the player wants to be able to use the power as a substitute for a variety of combat actions, I'd suggest that they instead take channeling (spirit), which is more closely balanced for that sort of thing.  If it has to be a fae thing, and it has to give the functions that spirit channeling would, there is nothing preventing the player from taking the channeling power and calling it glamours.

Consequences:  Well, they grant one free tag, so remember that.  And let players pay a Fate point to the opponent to compel the consequence if you think its a good compel.  But otherwise, yeah, consequences are a good way to extend a fight without reducing fighting capacity.  Varying the amount of consequences a thing will take is a good way to model how important and serious a fight is supposed to be.

Resources:  You can only use the Buying Things trapping of resources once per session.  Thats a pretty effective way to stop it from dominating.  But if a player is making that one of their highest skills, then its supposed to be powerful.  So don't completely shut it down by doing things like "your bank accounts gone".  Thats just punishing the player.  Oh, and call for a Lore roll when he tries to buy something that would rely on knowledge of what hurts supernatural things.  And call for a contacts roll when trying to buy something illegal.

Target Numbers:  If you just don't know what the difficulty is, make it 3.  This lets characters that are experts at the thing usually succeed, and unskilled characters usually have to pay Fate points to succeed.  Don't make them roll for something just because there would be a logical chance of failure.  Only make them roll if you would be interested in seeing that failure occur.

Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Tedronai on March 14, 2011, 07:17:04 PM
The temptation plan looks sound.  If the denarian grants a character use of powers, such as hellfire, then of course that costs refresh.  If a character actually takes up the coin, you might push the Demonic Copilot power on the character. 


If they're only gaining the power temporarily, then it'll 'only' cost an amount of Fate points (or debt) equal to the usual refresh cost.
Demonic Co-pilot, on the other hand, is probably a reasonable power for them to be taking (or having 'pushed on them', if it won't put them into NPC territory) even with just the Shadow.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Kommisar on March 14, 2011, 07:24:54 PM
I think you have a good handle of the Denerian bit and are doing just what is suppose to happen there.  And, yea, I'm with the above on having had the Denerian hedge it's bets in the merc player.  Heck, give him a GM Aspect of "Touched by the Fallen" or something that rides quiet for now and can be compelled later.  You know, when the players is REALLY low on Fate points and in trouble and it feels the bartender angle is drying up.

Resources are not game-breakers if handled well.  No more than a wizard that can drop all sorts of effects with some creative Thaum.  He put the points into it as one of his character's big-time abilities and he shouldn't be penalized for that.  If it is really an issue and you (and the rest of the players) feel that having his character able to "Make It Rain" takes the story/game in a direction that you feel is not fun and in theme with what you want, then talk to him about it.  And, if agrees, then let him restructure his character.

On the other hand, having vast amounts of money does not equate to being able to get anything you want.  Especially when that "anything" is in the category of esoteric, exotic or down-right illegal.  Depleted Uranium is not something just anyone comes across regardless of how much money they have to spread around.  Not without a boat load of various governmental agencies (domestic and foreign) catching wind of the rich guy wandering around asking about it.  DU is highly regulated and tracked.  Boxes of it don't fall of the back of the truck very often.  I'm not saying that it is impossible to get a hold of (I have never tried to procure DU... so, I'm speculating here) but it is going to take, as said above, Contacts.  Superb Contacts at least.  With a good role and some Fate points going into it.

Same can be said for lots of combat related equipment.  If you are in the US and are a common purchaser of body armor, military grade ammunition and other gear through legal channels you are going to crop up on some lists.  It can be 100% legal that you have all of it; specific licenses and everything.  But you buy a pallet of 7.62 NATO with an order of 10 Class 3 Tactical Body Armor suits per month the ATF and FBI are going to have eyes on you.  Which, if you are expending all of that ammo chasing vampires and demons through the streets of America, is going get real awkward for you real quick when the ATF surveillance sees more than they should.

Marcone has all of this covered through a vast array of fronts, blind purchases, black market contacts and bribes to local, state and federal agency personnel.  He can get a pallet of 7.62mm NATO, a pallet of assault rifles to use the ammo and even a Huey to fly everyone around it.  But it still would take him time to set it all up.

So, the best advice here is to deny him instant gratification for the rare stuff.  Let him buy everyone a good pair of Wolverine boots, flashlights and, heck, even pump action shotguns if he wants.  But speed bump him on the stuff that you can not go pick up at a big box retailer and throw in the Contacts roll to boot.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Eunomiac on March 14, 2011, 07:43:24 PM
I too used to have issues with what I started calling the "hollow aspects" problem, where an aspect could say anything and it wouldn't have an effect unless someone invoked or compelled it. I got past this by remembering how stories work.  (That's not meant to sound patronizing; it's seriously how I did it.)  Almost anything can be explained in the narration.

Imagine Harry Dresden being struck blind in a story: one of the worst things that can happen to you in a fight.  He takes "Blindness" as consequence.  Now, something bad would happen to enforce the disadvantage -- that's the NPC's free tag, and the GM would be criminal not to use it.

But after that, you'd probably find that the "Blindness" aspect didn't have as much of an effect as you might have expected.  He may have taken a few soft hits, been spun around a few times, frantically and tensely sought his bearings -- but all this is narration, with no game effect (even the soft hits; nothing says the enemies can't touch you outside of a successful attack roll; they just can't inflict stress).  But, when push comes to shove (i.e. a roll hits the table), that's when, ahem, "fate" kicks in:  He hears a foot fall at the last moment and dodges just in time (getting his full defense roll) and swings around for a counterattack (getting his full attack roll).  And that's assuming the aspect stays "hollow", with no NPCs spending fate points.

Taking your example: With 'Bruised Ribs', 'Bullet Wounds' and a 'Shattered Leg', you've used consequences to make your opposition a formidable and tenacious beast.  Without spending Fate points, those aspects are "hollow" and that animal remains able to act normally, mechanically-speaking.  It's up to you as GM to determine whether this makes sense or not.  I think it does (his rage overcomes his pain and he still has three legs to walk on).  But, if you'd instead given that dog "Shattered Hip" as a consequence, then yeah, it wouldn't make any sense for him to maintain pursuit, and you should compel that dog's aspect (giving him a fate point) to prevent it. 

Your players should be on the ball here, too, reminding you every chance they get about potential compels.  It's up to you to decide whether they're compelling the dog, costing them a fate point (this is how I'd rule it for "Shattered Leg"), OR if they're just reminding you of a compel you'd have done anyway had you thought of it first (as I'd rule for "Shattered Hip").  It's important to distinguish between the two, because you don't want your players to be afraid to suggest worthy compels -- you have a lot to keep track of and need all the help you can get!
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Jancarius on March 14, 2011, 07:55:21 PM
The trick is I guess how high to set the DC roll of some of these illegal things.  Before I said "No, you don't know about the depleted uranium thing" he was arguing that it couldn't be THAT hard to get some, given how much DU ordinance was fired in the Afghan and Iraq warzones each year, some of it would definitely go unaccounted for.  In this game, certain areas in which I have no real expertise (for example, weapons, restricted weapons, and how hard it is to get them), I'm having to just take the collective players word for it.

So far, it's been 'temporary' power grants, which as I understand don't cost permanent refresh?  Basically, he has to ask Tarsiel each time for the grant of power.  The first few times will be free (he's only asked for it once, and been offered it for free when Tarseil first made his appearence) and he's getting the weaksauce version of Tarsiel's power (inhuman tiers).  I figure since Tarsiels form is an obsidian statue, he'd have supernatural or mythic toughness (with the catch being the Swords of the Cross) and at least inhuman recovery, and probably supernatural strength.  The power he has more continually is inhuman recovery (which he has paid out refresh for), the inhuman strength, and inhuman toughness come out only when he asks Tarsiel for them.

Yeah, I totally missed the section on tagging, and I didn't even think about them using the consequences as compels.  That should make them more interesting than 'random injury of x severity that has the same effect as any other injury of x severity'. 

I guess the concern is more the utter disregard to cost he seems to exhibit in regards to his expensive weapons and gear.  I mean, top military grade body armor, and it got the crap torn out of one of the arms of the suit, and he's just like "eh, I'll buy another." 

Is there anywhere that gives some guidelines on how long some of these research and contact/resource checks should take?  And should it take the characters full attention, or should it be "Alright, I study for an hour each evening when I get home from work... what do I learn?"

Also, hexing.  How much do low power practioners (with say, just thaumaturgy) affect technology around them?  Or just Ritual?  If the changeling took Seelie Magic and Channeling (spirit), would it have the same effect on technology as wizards/sorcerers?
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Eunomiac on March 14, 2011, 09:35:02 PM
I've got an idea to bring Kincaid and his Resources in line, but you've got a big group and it requires a bit of focus on him for awhile.  So you may want to spread the following out over a series of unrelated scenarios, to keep your players from getting bored.

In dealing with One-Man-Army, I think you're too focused on the rules, when you forget that you hold the whole freaking world in the palm of your hands (literally, if you write your scenario notes in a palm-sized notebook).  Be fair, but firm.  The things he's doing CANNOT be done without difficulty, without consequence, but those consequences should be tense, interesting and fun.

So let's shake things up. 

Question: What's the FBI/NSA/ATF/CIA going to think when they hear of a guy running around buying up depleted uranium shells by the bushel and ordering weekly deliveries of military-grade body armor?  Time to answer that, while blindsiding the hell out of all your players at the same time. (What FUN we GMs get to have!)

Step One: Have a terrorist attack happen nearby, completely removed from whatever story you're running.  Mention it a few times, whenever you're in a scene with CNN playing in the background.  Throw in some details that wouldn't be out of place in a real-world act of terrorism, but that are actually red herrings designed to make your players think there's "just another monster" behind this one.  Get them excited about a potential showdown waiting in the wings.

Step Two: One-Man-Army hears an odd click on his phone the next time he uses it.  He notices the same car has been parked outside his house each night (it hustles away if he approaches; cops intercede if he pursues).  Make him think the government is watching him.  Try to get him super-paranoid about being a suspect in the terrorist investigation, but try to keep him away from any "direct" confrontations, as that will make Step Three a mite difficult. 

Step Three: Now, run a scenario involving a paranoid-schizophrenic who raves about vague things like "watchers in the wings" and "listeners on the line".  At some point, make a production of revealing that the schizophrenic was in the bar when the coin was passed around: This could be the reveal that anyone who touches the coin, gets Tarsiel's shadow.  It could wake up simultaneously in all their minds, somewhere along the way.  The point of all this is to get One-Man-Army to "see through" your "cleverly constructed" mystery, to make him doubly-certain that this is what it's all about: "The car, the clicks, they aren't real!  Of course, it's been Tarsiel this whole time! Well, I'm stronger than that nut in the bar! Screw you, Tarsiel, I'm not falling for it!"

Step Four: Once One-Man-Army is merrily on his way back to being his old self, convinced that the constant watchers and clicks and cars are Tarsiel's influence, he'll soon start requisitioning more equipment (and if he doesn't, well, problem solved!).  Don't change your tone on this; be as reluctant as always, but eventually give in.  It's Christmas in Kandahar, hurray!

Then he gets a phone call.

It's his <insert family/friend>.  The FBI has been asking questions.  There's a knock at the door, while he's still on the phone. (Why? Why else? FUN!) It's an FBI agent.  And at such an inopportune time, too, what with the plutonium warhead on the coffee table and a Blackhawk helicopter in the garage.  Practice your aggressive, pointed questions beforehand, and lean HARD on social compels to trip him up.  Make him feel like the whole weight of the US government is about to rain holy hell on his head, Waco-style, if they find a hint of contraband anywhere near him.  It dawns on him: This is the real fight, the real challenge, and it's one that, despite all of his easy-earned weaponry, he's hopelessly ill-equipped to fight (what sweet, sweet irony).  It wasn't Tarsiel at all!  In fact, Tarsiel is taunting him about this, engaging in a simultaneous mental contest, trying to trip him up in his social contest with the FBI Agent; after all, if he's caught, who else will be able to get him out of federal custody?  You could even give Tarsiel's shadow and/or the FBI agent to other players to roleplay (I do this with a "How To Host A Murder"-style character card, detailing motivations, what the NPC knows, typical reactions and the like).

If you're feeling really artful, slap down a scene aspect: "JUST BECAUSE I'M PARANOID DOESN'T MEAN THEY AREN'T REALLY AFTER ME!"  If you're feeling REALLY artful, make this a direct quote of something the schizophrenic said, or painted on the walls in blood as he committed suicide (you want it to stick in their minds), way back before they had any idea of its significance.

If this doesn't make One-Man-Army more careful about both the Fallen AND requisitioning stray nukes, your next step is to do exactly what you promised: Rain the entire might of the US government down on his head, and let the cards fall as they may.  He did, after all, ask for it!
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: mostlyawake on March 14, 2011, 11:03:21 PM
1) Difficulties:

Use the guidelines, think about how much knowledge someone with the lore skill would know about spirits.  How common - for characters in the know - is the depleted uranium thing? 

Let's say it's good (+3).  It's something anyone who has seriously studied magic has come across.  MAYBE, if they've read anything current, and know what the crap depleted uranium is.  (Think this is something your 400 year old wizard has heard of? Really?)

So let's modify it by weapons. (-1 if weapons is lower than lore, +1 if weapons is higher than lore).

Now, let's talk about access.  Is it harder to pay for the bullets, or get access to the bullets?  I'd say, cost-wise is fairly negligible. So access is the key.  Acquiring the bullets is going to take a difficulty 4 contacts roll, modified by resources. (so his resource 5 helps him). It's high because he is trying to buy something that is illegal, heavily monitored, and carries a big risk for someone down the line (like a court martial).

If something feels like an all-solution, except maybe well spell-casting, then you're probably better off looking at what other skills the character would need for the situation.  Just because you can actually buy people still, doesn't mean that doing so without any risk is going to be a simple resource roll.

Lastly, assess how much interest everyone else has in the bullets, and how important they are to the story.  Roleplay the "getting the bullets scene" out depending on how much it adds to the story, or hand-waive it with a few rolls.  This could be a great time to bring in other complications, or introduce side-plots, like the contact needing help with another issue.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: noclue on March 15, 2011, 07:19:27 AM
During this fight, the changeling tried to use her glamor powers a couple different ways.  First, she tried to use it to blind the dog.  I was okay with this, but it seemed weird that since she was basically making a maneuver, the dogs blindness only mattered when people had fate points to spend.

You could think about it like the Dogs blindness only mattered when it mattered. The dog is blinded, but if someone wants to take advantage of its blindness, there's a currency operating to say how you do that. Basically, you pay a fate point to bring story elements in your favor, you receive a fate point when story elements make your life hard.

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Then, she tried to make duplicates of the Kincaid-expy, as he was the one it was focused on, and it bypassed it by using the smell of blood from a consequence he had taken.  

Bypassed it how? Did you invoke the aspect for effect? Was it a tag?  It sounds like an invoke for effect, which I don't think I would have allowed in a roll to "see" through a glamour. I would have called for a roll vs. the power of the spell, with doggy getting a tag on the dude's consequence. You shouldn't be able to use an invoke for effect to get out of a contested role.

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4) Related note: Consequences seem to greatly extend a fight without reducing fight capacity, besides just making easily invoked aspects.  The dog was one turn away from inflicting an extreme consequence on the Kincaid-expy when they finally dropped it, because it's 'Bruised Ribs' 'Bullet wounds' and 'Shattered Leg' didn't really affect it in a material way after the aspects had each been invoked once (and they can only be invoked once per scene, yes?).  I also am a bit iffy on giving fate points for invoking consequence aspects, on account of it being something of an entirely negative aspect.  

They can be tagged once, then everyone can use them by spending a fate point. I don't believe there's a limit on how many times a consequence can be used against you in a scene, but don't have the book handy. You're supposed to get Fate points when your aspects cause you problems.

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5) The Kincaid expy brought to my immediate and fore attention what just one player with very high resources can do to a game.

I'm confused on this one. What's his gun skill and the weapon rating you've assigned to his guns? I haven't had this problem.

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6) Coming from 3.5 and 4.0 D&D, I am having some difficulty deciding on what I really feel are good guidelines for difficulties.  Anyone have advice on this?
You could try using the descriptions on the ladder. So assign a Fair difficulty, or a Good Difficulty or a Great Difficulty, depending upon how much of a challenge you want it to be.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Jancarius on March 15, 2011, 10:12:41 AM
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Bypassed it how? Did you invoke the aspect for effect? Was it a tag?  It sounds like an invoke for effect, which I don't think I would have allowed in a roll to "see" through a glamour. I would have called for a roll vs. the power of the spell, with doggy getting a tag on the dude's consequence. You shouldn't be able to use an invoke for effect to get out of a contested role.
Invoked the consequence to essentially say "Well, I may not be able to visually tell them apart, but I can smell which one is real from the blood dripping from his arm", which I'm pretty sure a dog could do, even if it wasn't supernatural.  So it was a mixture of invoking the dogs already superior sense of smell combined with the scent of fresh blood from the consequence.  I liked Eunomaniac's discussion and examples of the story side and hollow aspects.  I think the existence of hollow aspects bugs me a lot more though, as in all aspects should be as actively in play as possible at all times.

That does remind me of another question: Is there any limit on when a player can compel/invoke an aspect?  During the fight, the players just started pumping out fate points around the table to trigger aspects for other players, or against the sin eater.  I was like "huh... can you do that?" especially the player whose character wasn't even present on the scene.

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I'm confused on this one. What's his gun skill and the weapon rating you've assigned to his guns? I haven't had this problem.
I believe it's 4 (Great) for his gun skill.  His weapons of choice are MP7s, and a 50 cal sniper rifle when he can.  I gave the dual wielded MP7s weapon 3.  I'm actually currently discussing some options in regards to that dual wielding.  I decided to penalize his accuracy when dual wielding (or using any gun 1 handed, for that matter.  Any improper firing technique reduces to hit), but in exchange I had to discuss 'could he fire and benefit from both guns'?  Right now, I said I might go with making him roll 2 attack actions at -2 -2 or possibly higher.  Is there any rules for that sort of thing?

Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: admiralducksauce on March 15, 2011, 01:21:48 PM
I believe it's 4 (Great) for his gun skill.  His weapons of choice are MP7s, and a 50 cal sniper rifle when he can.  I gave the dual wielded MP7s weapon 3.  I'm actually currently discussing some options in regards to that dual wielding.  I decided to penalize his accuracy when dual wielding (or using any gun 1 handed, for that matter.  Any improper firing technique reduces to hit), but in exchange I had to discuss 'could he fire and benefit from both guns'?  Right now, I said I might go with making him roll 2 attack actions at -2 -2 or possibly higher.  Is there any rules for that sort of thing?

I use a Stunt from Spirit of the Century, "Two Gun Joe", for akimbo gunplay:
When using two guns, add 1/2 the damage bonus from the second gun on successful hits.  You also get a +1 to resist disarms and similar attempts.  You still only roll one attack, though.  The way FATE works is you get one primary (rolled) action, a possible supplemental action, and then free actions.

I also wouldn't say MP7s are Weapon:3.  They're submachineguns.  They can make spray attacks, but IMO you need to go get a proper rifle caliber for Weapon:3.

Now, you could rule that the Stunt idea above could just be rules, no stunt required.  You could also use a Guns declaration to place aspects like "Hail of bullets" or "Give him two guns, he's God!" or something.  Then make spray attacks and tag them to counteract the damage reduction inherent in spray attacks.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Kommisar on March 15, 2011, 03:12:37 PM
Firearms advice:

MP-7's huh?  He likes his exotic firearms.  They fire the HK proprietary 4.6x30mm round with three variants:  Military (Germany is the only country using it currently and in limited amounts), Law Enforcement (again, Germany) and Ball round.  There are differences for the tech-gun-geek-wonk; but will not make any difference in your game what-so-ever.  But, this is NOT a round that you can walk into a gun/ammo store and buy.  This is special order only.  From Germany.  Meaning that the only place he could stock up on reloads is probably his personal stash.  If you want, that is a weakness that a GM could exploit once in a blue moon.  Make a Compel "Out of Rare Ammo" on his guns.  Especially fun if going home at that time would be awkward or problematic.

This is SMG/Pistol cartridge designed specifically for increased penetration against modern body armor. 

I would model this as a Weapon 3 when firing bursts or auto.  Weapon 2 in single shot (if you want that level of distinction).

I like the rules from Spirit of the Century for 2 gun Joe myself if I am going more for a cinematic type game.  Who doesn't enjoy the thought of their character going all Morpheus with 2 thumping SMGs in their hands?  For a less cinematic stunt, I would make the stunt for 2 Gun Mojo give a +2 for suppression attempts (blocks and maneuvers where weight of fire would count).  Here, it doesn't matter that you are not accurately controlling your fire and putting bullets on target, you just need lots of lead zipping in the area to keep heads down and make it a generally unsafe environment that deters people moving about.


Depleted Uranium Rounds.

Hard, hard, hard to get.  They are not using much DU rounds in Iraq and Afghanistan today as the insurgents and Taliban do not have much in the way of targets that need that level of armor penetration to justify expending expensive, heavy ammo that has health risks associated with it.  Seriously, if you have a 20mm chain gun you don't need DU rounds to take out a Toyota pickup.

During the first Gulf War and in the open invasion of Iraq, US forces did expend DU rounds.  More during the first war over all.  But, the military does have teams that deploy to try and recover that DU after the fighting is done.  It's expensive and dangerous after all.  This is made difficult by the fact that the high-energy impacts created by the rounds hitting armored targets will vaporize the DU round as it penetrates creating a very deadly and nasty plasma stream explosively super heats the inside of the target after penetration due to the pyrophoric properties of the uranium alloys used (this means it ignites when exposed to air in a aerosol form).  By super heat, of course, I mean melting steel and all of that. Armor penetrating rounds kill the target and crew through heat and over-pressurization which will, hopefully, cook off stored ammunition, not by "exploding" in the way a High Explosive round would.  The most common use of DU rounds is the 30 mm PGU-14/B used by the airforce.  A-10 holy crap cannon.  It is also used as the 120mm "Silver Bullet" used by the M1 series tanks.  They have also created 25mm rounds for the Bradley and Apache cannons.

Best bet for getting DU off a battlefield will be to find rounds that missed.  Missed, in most cases, in the open deserts of Iraq.  Good luck if you don't have the right equipment.

There are civilian uses of DU.  As shielding in medical radiological equipment and even as counter-weighting in things like boats and planes.  The use of DU for production of planes, though, was discontinued in the 80's due to concerns of the DU doing bad things in a crash.  The US nuclear regulatory agency does permit for commercial use in the US.  But, doing so means you are on a watch list and you have to show a valid need for it.  Still you best bet for procuring DU and probably where Harry got a hold of his bag.

Now, saying you get a hold of a source of expended DU rounds, you still need the facilities to make that mass of DU into a small arms cartridge.  You ain't doing that in your garage.  Or even a really good machine shop.  DU is dense and tough and requires special techniques and equipment to work.  Off the top of my head here (going back to my mineralogy classes) DU is about 70% denser than lead!

And then there is weight.  Carrying a 30 round mag of DU rounds is no joke.  Using standard rounds, you are looking at 30 rounds weighing about .5 pounds.  Going to DU, assuming you are not using a military grade alloy, you are looking at about a pound.  Yea, doesn't sound like a lot; but it adds up and can throw off the weight balance of a weapon.  The MP-7 itself weighs 4.19 pounds after all.

A lot of useless information; but hey, I'm a geek and this is my area.   ;D  But DU is not easy to get in the form of a small arms bullet.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: ways and means on March 15, 2011, 03:21:38 PM
When duel wielding guns I just use a variant of the two weapons stunt, so in the case of duel wielding SMG's that would be +5. You would really need a fast reloading stunt doing this because otherwise you are talking about a -1 due to supplemental reloading every other round.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: sinker on March 15, 2011, 03:22:44 PM
That does remind me of another question: Is there any limit on when a player can compel/invoke an aspect?  During the fight, the players just started pumping out fate points around the table to trigger aspects for other players, or against the sin eater.  I was like "huh... can you do that?" especially the player whose character wasn't even present on the scene.

We've got a thread going on elsewhere about this. To invoke an aspect there are a few requirements. A character must have access and interaction. Access is the knowledge of the aspect. Does the character know that he's got "Bruised Ribs"? Interaction is the tough one and you can check the other thread for all the interpretations but strictly I believe it's this: A character must describe what HIS character is doing to take advantage of the situation. In the most simple example a character could invoke the "Bruised Ribs" as part of an attack, stating that they are hitting him in the ribs so it huts more. But you could get creative (if the GM allows) and say that maybe he's favoring that side and you're staying on his bad side to make it harder for him to hit you (invoking to dodge). I can't think of any other examples, but I'm thinking likely the character who wasn't in the scene probably didn't have either access or interaction...

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I believe it's 4 (Great) for his gun skill.  His weapons of choice are MP7s, and a 50 cal sniper rifle when he can.  I gave the dual wielded MP7s weapon 3.  I'm actually currently discussing some options in regards to that dual wielding.  I decided to penalize his accuracy when dual wielding (or using any gun 1 handed, for that matter.  Any improper firing technique reduces to hit), but in exchange I had to discuss 'could he fire and benefit from both guns'?  Right now, I said I might go with making him roll 2 attack actions at -2 -2 or possibly higher.  Is there any rules for that sort of thing?

Since targeting roll=damage in Fate a lot of this kind of thing is moot. You're sacrificing damage to gain damage, and because you're actually less likely to hit this way it's actually worse. I'd agree with the admiral on most of what he said.

EDIT: Though I would mention that SotC is supposed to be more cinematic, whereas Dresden is supposed to be more gritty and realistic which is likely why the stunt is in SotC and not in Dresden.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: luminos on March 15, 2011, 04:21:16 PM
Dual wielding guns in Fate doesn't produce any actual effect different from using a single gun, unless you've got a stunt for it.  Also, multiple actions per round for a character aren't a very good way to go, because the action economy is one of those things that is always the same across the board, so changing it for one exception could produce unexpected and massively unbalanced results.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Kommisar on March 15, 2011, 06:51:50 PM
Simply depends on how a group would like to flavor their Dresden game.  Some groups like things more cinematic.  Some like a bit more grit.  For the cinematic flavor, the 2 Gun Joe stunt works well.  You are now a run & gun John Woo movie pumping rounds into the bad guys with style and, being more cinematic, having 2 guns means you are shooting those bad guys more.  And more is always better.

Like more grit, then I still like my stunt (name it whatever you want) that gives you +2 on any non-attack action when using 2 automatic firearms.  Depending on how your group would evaluate how "narrowly defined" it's application is, this could go up to +3.  After all, you have to have 2 automatic weapons.  Make it +4 if you tack on that your weapons automatically take on the sticky aspect "Dry" or "Out of Ammo" after using the stunt.  Then again, my personal opinion is that to many people discount the utility of firearms outside of straight up attacks.  Unless you have supernatural means, they are a easy means to carry off blocks and maneuvers against targets outside of your current zone.  If you have some tactical minded individuals that use that, it can get real ugly real quick for the bad guys.  Even in my all Wizard game I am running (5 submerged level White Council Wizards) my players have seen the utility of just this in taking on some rather nasty opponents.  If you are a Guns guy, think about it.  Superb Guns skill (+5), you take the +4 for the stunt by dumping your clip you have a 9 shift block against a target outside your zone.  And that is without adding your roll or any Fate Point expenditures.  Move 2 shifts (spend a Fate Point) and now you effect the entire zone with that block.   Really good method of crowd control... assuming the target doesn't get to wade through bullets.

One of my players did this with an AK-47 without the stunt while taking on some Red Courts.  Built up some maneuvers for a +6 (Aimed, Elevated Position and Flanked), rolled his 3 Guns Skill and got a +3 and dropped a Fate Point to make a 12 Shift block against 3 Red Court Vamps in a Warehouse zone.  This allowed his 4 other wizard buddies to focus on the other 2 Reds and pick them apart.  Could he have used magic to do the same?  Yea, but that didn't cost him one of his mental stresses.  He used that the next exchange to drop some Earth Magic on them.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: sinker on March 15, 2011, 11:33:24 PM
Simply depends on how a group would like to flavor their Dresden game.  Some groups like things more cinematic.  Some like a bit more grit.  For the cinematic flavor, the 2 Gun Joe stunt works well.  You are now a run & gun John Woo movie pumping rounds into the bad guys with style and, being more cinematic, having 2 guns means you are shooting those bad guys more.  And more is always better.

Not trying to say that cinematic is bad, just explaining the likely reason why it wasn't in the DFRPG rule books.

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Move 2 shifts (spend a Fate Point) and now you effect the entire zone with that block.   Really good method of crowd control... assuming the target doesn't get to wade through bullets.

You technically can't do this. When one is creating a block with evocation one of the things one can do is spend 2 shifts to extend that block to all allies within a zone. That's the RAW. Were I to house rule extending an offensive block to all enemies in one zone I would likely call for more shifts (since preventing multiple unwilling targets from doing something is going to be much harder than protecting multiple willing targets from all incoming attacks). On top of this these rules only apply to evocation blocks. All other blocks follow the rules of 'You can prevent one enemy from doing everything or all enemies from doing one specific thing.' The "shifts" of a non-magical block only make the block harder to bypass.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: UmbraLux on March 16, 2011, 12:56:17 AM
You technically can't do this.
Is it disallowed somewhere or simply not explicitly allowed?  The description under Resolving Blocks on YS210 shows a movement block against multiple opponents by 'peppering the door with gunfire'.  Not sure why you couldn't do the same on any zone border...

That said, I'm not sure I'd allow it to be fully effective against Red Court Vampires.  They're not exactly worried about dying from a bullet wound.  At least not un-aimed fire...
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: sinker on March 16, 2011, 01:27:03 AM
Is it disallowed somewhere or simply not explicitly allowed?  The description under Resolving Blocks on YS210 shows a movement block against multiple opponents by 'peppering the door with gunfire'.  Not sure why you couldn't do the same on any zone border...

It is not explicitly allowed but your example applies under the regular block rules. It's preventing everyone from doing one thing.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Kommisar on March 16, 2011, 05:12:49 AM
I gotcha on why it wasn't in the DFRPG.   ;D  Just trying to help out some of the guys here that like their cinematic game as well.

As for the block, that is what my player did.  He prevented everyone in that zone from moving.  What they did do was locate the shooter up on the walkway.

The way it was laid out by the player was that the sudden barrage of fire from their flank came as a surprise and, therefore, caused them to hesitate in following through on their ambush.  It was an ambush on the RC Vamps ambush.  I agreed and allowed it with the reasoning that it was the surprise of the suppressive fire that locked them in place, not just bullets alone.  Even vampires can be hit by confusion.  The next exchange, now that the surprise element is gone, he went for some serious Earth Magic to lock them down.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Jancarius on March 16, 2011, 02:30:52 PM
On the subject of magic, it seemed like taking additional 'specializations' was a eminently superior option to focus items.  Other than the requirement of 'pyramiding', it's better in every way (except I suppose, if you want the enchanted item slots, but even then, power crafting specialization is generally going to be your best bet to get more bang).  Plus, you can't misplace your specialization, it's just a passive bonus.  For fun, I put together a 12 refresh 40 skill wizard last night, and he can toss out a 9 power rote spell, and I'm pretty sure I didn't do that great a job at optimizing him. 

Err, I was gonna talk back in regards to some of the other stuff, but I got distracted and apparently just left this window open and now I have to go to work.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Jancarius on March 17, 2011, 06:42:22 AM
Okay, so now that I'm back home:  Passive hexing: How does it work?  After significant milestone, the party now consists of 2 Thaumaturgy-only sorcerers (the shaman and the paintomancer), an evocation-only sorceress (the changeling), a minor talent (werewolf), and a Denarian coin holder.  I've been using the active hex chart as something of a guide, but how much should their power foul up regular electronics?  Except for the paintomancer, all of them are university students, and would probably regularly be expected to access online materials for coursework and assignments.  While if they stuck to using public university computers, their system damage might go undetected, it would definitely make the shaman (who is a phd student) find keeping his thesis safe and intact more difficult.  So far, I had an idea of using some kind of average based on their Conviction score as their 'passive hex' score, and that would be typically about the active hex level -4.  When casting spells around tech, this would be spell power -2. 

Also hexing question:  The active hex seems to indicate that if you can conjure up 9 shifts for a hex, you can pretty much disable anything from the last 200 years, including it seems, firearms.  How should I explain some of these mechanical failures?  As mentioned earlier,we have a Kincaid-expy who uses automatics and a 50cal sniper rifle.  It seems like around all these magic users, he should have a lot more difficulties with his weapons.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: toturi on March 17, 2011, 07:06:53 AM
Okay, so now that I'm back home:  Passive hexing: How does it work?  After significant milestone, the party now consists of 2 Thaumaturgy-only sorcerers (the shaman and the paintomancer), an evocation-only sorceress (the changeling), a minor talent (werewolf), and a Denarian coin holder.  I've been using the active hex chart as something of a guide, but how much should their power foul up regular electronics?  Except for the paintomancer, all of them are university students, and would probably regularly be expected to access online materials for coursework and assignments.  While if they stuck to using public university computers, their system damage might go undetected, it would definitely make the shaman (who is a phd student) find keeping his thesis safe and intact more difficult.  So far, I had an idea of using some kind of average based on their Conviction score as their 'passive hex' score, and that would be typically about the active hex level -4.  When casting spells around tech, this would be spell power -2. 
This is something I have been asking myself. I think I have a workaround, but it may not suit your game: the ease of use of technology by the wizards (or anyone likely to be compelled to accidentally hex) is an Aspect of their character, they are compeled not to hex. Thus when they are compeled to hex due to their magic, the Aspect gives them a FP not to, therefore cancelling out the FP paid to buy off the compel to hex. Given that your magic users have been living with technology and presumably able make use of it without much trouble, I do not think that this would be unjustified in story. Alternatively you could have it as a compel on the fact that they are students, and the ease of use of technology only extends insofar as their studies.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Jancarius on March 17, 2011, 02:47:30 PM
Not really sure I understand your post.  It seems like you're saying that I should use a compel to force them not to hex that they have a counter compel for and the effect is canceled out? 

Also, I don't intend for them to have an easy time using technology (at least, not the 3 sorcerer-level talents).  I want their computers to crash, their cell phones to never get any signal, or stop working entirely, all the usual stuff.  I also want their regular presence and magic use around any technology to have a constant break down effect, and the maintenance and repair of this stuff needs to be a noticeable time/cost, at least mentioned in passing ("Today, I took out every gun in my safe, dissambled them, oiled all the parts, cleaned everything and inspected them for mechanical flaws... Gonna have to do this again in a few days"  "No, Melody,stay over on the far side of the room... if you get near my computer before my thesis finishes printing, I will curse the hell out of you" Something along these lines).
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: devonapple on March 17, 2011, 04:12:10 PM
Players should get a Fate Point when they avoid something or just say something broke because of Hexing (self-Compel on their Spellcaster High Concept).
You should offer a Fate Point when you want to Complicate something because of Hexing (GM-Compel on their Spellcaster High Concept).
They can Hex things for no Mental Stress, at range, almost like an Evocation, using the Hexing rules (which I won't repeat here).
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: mostlyawake on March 18, 2011, 12:34:12 AM
Random DU aside: It's also been used to make doors to large bank vaults.  And I mean, LARGE (not your typical stand-alone bank, but the "downtown vault").   Which is a weird, semi-magical thing in itself... who the crap needs that?

Back to the discussion:

Players should get a Fate Point when they avoid something or just say something broke because of Hexing (self-Compel on their Spellcaster High Concept).
You should offer a Fate Point when you want to Complicate something because of Hexing (GM-Compel on their Spellcaster High Concept).
They can Hex things for no Mental Stress, at range, almost like an Evocation, using the Hexing rules (which I won't repeat here).

I charge stress like a proper evocation if they are trying to force a larger hex.  Taking out someone's cell phone, or even a single car, seems to be just the result of being a wizard.  But I've thrown 14 shift spells out (8 in hex, 6 for 3 zones) to hex the entire playing field before.  Pretty much shuts down everything. 
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Tedronai on March 18, 2011, 12:43:09 AM
It's only the first point of stress that they get a free pass on.  Additional stress for calling up shifts of power in excess of their Conviction is treated normally.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: toturi on March 18, 2011, 02:09:22 AM
Not really sure I understand your post.  It seems like you're saying that I should use a compel to force them not to hex that they have a counter compel for and the effect is canceled out? 

Also, I don't intend for them to have an easy time using technology (at least, not the 3 sorcerer-level talents).
You understand my post correctly.
If you want them to have a tough time using tech, then you can disallow it. But I would say that if a player came to me with this idea (having a tech friendly Aspect to counter accidental hexing), I would understand it as "I do not want to have the general technological intolerance of magic users come into play for my character."
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Jancarius on March 18, 2011, 02:21:02 PM
I don't think it should work that way at all.  To me, a wizard capable of using technology in the Dresden-verse would be like a fae taking the aspect 'Iron-tolerant'.  It just flies in the face of a basic concept of the game-verse.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Kommisar on March 18, 2011, 02:40:47 PM
DU Aside:

A thin layer of DU in a vault door would be used to make it much harder to drill through as well as limiting the use of high end shape charges to penetrate and compromise the sealing shafts.  You don't go to home depot for a bit that will even smudge DU.

Also, some additional thoughts of making small arms DU rounds.  You will have to do one of two things for it to work.  One, you will have to use custom smooth bore barrels on the weapon you are using.  Two, make DU cored rounds with a softer metal jacket.  Otherwise, you will foul your barrel after one or two rounds as the DU rounds will not deform around the barrel groves and, as a result, acquire the stabilizing spin.  Possibly with catastrophic results depending upon the the weapon and round design.  The barrel will deform around the DU round instead.  And before you think that going the DU core round route, there are difficulties there that make it much harder to pull off that most would think.

First, creating core rounds is more difficult than just dipping the core in the softer metal.  I'm not going to go into a long post on metallurgy here, but you will have challenges in keeping the softer jacket material (less dense) to bond with the DU core (more dense).  Not done properly, your jacket material will simple strip off once fired and leave you with a DU core ricocheting down your barrel.  A barrel which is now fouled with the remnants of your jacket metal.  If it was a burst of automatic fire then the second and third rounds are going to do God-Knows-What.  But I would not want to be holding the weapon or even standing near the weapon for this experiment.

This can be done properly.  It takes skill, knowledge (above what any common gunsmith would have) and specialty tools and materials to pull off.

You may be able to design a small sabot round system.  But that would require a smooth bore itself as well as some very careful machining of the sabot core itself to ensure a properly engineered shape for stable flight upon casing separation.  VERY expensive.

Cheaper, easier option would be to make a DU shotgun round.  Already smooth bore and capable of firing off a mixed DU buck-shot round or an easier to design and make sabot round.

Oh, and the other problem with DU rounds in small arms is that it will reduce your ballistic performance all around.  DU is heavier than lead by about 70%.  Add to the decrease in performance if you are using a smooth bore option.  A .50 cal round will still have a good amount of powder behind it such that you will not lose a lot of that performance (assuming you kept the rifling or a well designed sabot), but any smaller rounds will start seeing severe issues with range, accuracy and KE on impact.

With all that said (and assuming anyone actually read any of it and cares) if you are going for a more cinematic type game (think Blade with all his specialty rounds) then go for it and have fun.  But, if you are going more gritty/realistic then now you have some good background to use when you tell your player how hard it is to get and use DU rounds for his M-16.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: UmbraLux on March 18, 2011, 03:04:35 PM
Sabot rounds are the way to go - and not all that difficult.  They will work in a rifled barrel and you can purchase sabot reading kits.  Still going to have issues acquiring and machining your DU rounds, of course.

Edit:  Since you're bringing this much realism into the game one reminder - never fire a sabot round through a weapon with a muzzle break!  Bad Things (TM) may occur...
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: toturi on March 18, 2011, 03:20:00 PM
I don't think it should work that way at all.  To me, a wizard capable of using technology in the Dresden-verse would be like a fae taking the aspect 'Iron-tolerant'.  It just flies in the face of a basic concept of the game-verse.
As I said, the workaround may not be for you. If you do not want a player to play a character that has a concept that turns a basic game-verse concept on its head, then it is your decision.

It just does not seem so to me. A fae may be iron-tolerant but he can still have an Iron Catch for his Toughness powers. The younger magic users and less talented magic users also seem to have technology run awry less too.
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Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Jancarius on March 18, 2011, 03:36:16 PM
(click to show/hide)
  The party, however, consists now of 3 people who are more on Victor from Storm Front's level in terms of magical power.  Obviously, it's not 'use any magic, never see internet' because the Alphas seem to have no technological problems at all.  But at some point in the range between Billy and Harry, technology has to start to fall apart.  They also note in the hexing rules (and I think it has been implied once or twice in the series) that the age of the mage relative to the technology seems to matter, which would be to me why Molly can use more tech than Harry (In addition to the fact that she probably has higher Discipline relative to Conviction than Harry does, and that Harry flat out has more raw power in the form of Refresh).  What I'm trying to figure out is how to handle this lower level hexing.  I don't want them to have their cars break down everytime they get in them, for example.  And the shaman, at least, has a 'beat up old chevy' of some unspecified year that he drives specifically for that purpose.  And clearly, they must still be able to at least use computers some of the time.  But I'm trying to figure out how to model a highly increased chance of hardware and software problems resulting from their magic in a story telling way.  I don't intend it to be something that really screws up their lives, more of a "you've noticed that lately, your computer crashes.  A lot."  and only really treat it as a compel if it's something like "Sheridan, your gun jams on the second shot" as a side effect of the evoker sorcereress throwing around blasts of power.

Now for a sponsored magic question:  Rather than having the shaman be just another sorcerer in a party now consisting of three of those, I suggested we put together a sponsored magic for him, where the sponsor is his ancestral spirits.  His trouble is already Ancestral Pact, and I think it ties in better with his high concept of Runaway Native American Shaman.  So far, I was thinking the standard 4 point cost, with the ability to perform certain nature magics with evocation like-methods and speeds.  What I'm kind of at a loss at is how wide should I allow nature to be defined (cause with some finangling, almost anything can be 'nature related'), and what sort of restrictions/drawbacks should I give for his sponsor?  In the story, he's already called up one spirit to ask it about the Sin Eater, and I didn't really know what to have the spirit demand in return, so I just said he had 'debt' to the spirit now.

Also, thank you much Kommisar: I know next to nothing about guns, despite living in Texas, so having anyone more familiar with them provide information I can reference is extremely helpful. 
Quote
Sabot rounds are the way to go - and not all that difficult.  They will work in a rifled barrel and you can purchase sabot reading kits.  Still going to have issues acquiring and machining your DU rounds, of course.

Edit:  Since you're bringing this much realism into the game one reminder - never fire a sabot round through a weapon with a muzzle break!  Bad Things (TM) may occur.
What's a sabot round?  Also, he started asking me about explosive rounds yesterday, and how much of a damage bonus those would get relative to a normal round...  I first made it clear that regardless of whatever the actual law on explosive rounds are, in my game, they are a illegal (In-character illegal, not banned from game) round, but beyond that I don't really know much about them.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: noclue on March 18, 2011, 04:01:34 PM
I don't think it should work that way at all.  To me, a wizard capable of using technology in the Dresden-verse would be like a fae taking the aspect 'Iron-tolerant'.  It just flies in the face of a basic concept of the game-verse.

I think technology should fail at the least opportune moment, creating the most dramatically tense and interesting moment, and sending the story off in new exciting directions full of highly charged conflicts. when you see those moments be ready with a compel. and do your best to create those moments in play.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: devonapple on March 18, 2011, 04:18:34 PM
(click to show/hide)
 

True, but then in White Night
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. He gives the impression that most practitioners of any talent start having troubles with even basic domestic technology. Ultimately, each of these instances came down to different narrative needs.

The rules make it very hard to justify anyone using a computer consistently. "How would they get through school?" people ask. "How do they function in college?" In an ideal world, the White Council would get a tip-off when unexplainable things (attributable to hexing) happened in a classroom, and those budding practitioners would be assessed, and either pulled into the Wizard's world if worthy, or taught to control their energy to function more smoothly in the mundane world.

But it isn't an ideal world, and almost all of these minor practitioners are just out of luck as far as fitting in, until they find some way to capitalize on their abilities. And sadly, usually, that's joining a Cult, creating a Cult, or otherwise developing sketchy magics to get by.

This isn't a game about social justice, however, so if it is in the table's idea of fun that a plucky group of teens/college students are able to juggle life as minor practitioners as well as life in contemporary technology-dominated society, then great! And when the GM wants to make that tech a little unreliable, boom! Fate points.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Kommisar on March 18, 2011, 04:50:45 PM
No problem on the gun/tech help.  Grew up in a military family and am now an engineer (and geologist; long story)... so it's good to have some practical use for the vast array of otherwise useless knowledge and skills my father imparted upon me.

A sabot round is, essentially, a round that contains 2 basic parts.  One is the actual projectile (in this case the DU core).  The second is a casing shell that contains the core until the round leaves the barrel and is then shed.  Wikipedia has a good article on it.  I will admit to being completely unaware of the availability of purchasable kits for civilian small arms sabot rounds.  Largely because I have never had need of one nor can I possibly think of a single reason a civilian (or 99% of soldiers) would need it beyond the "COOL!" factor.   :o  So, with that available, that would be the way to go.  Assuming you can clear the procurement and machining hurdle.

I have little experience with explosive small arms rounds.  Largely because they are both illegal (highly) and that the military does not employ them commonly (if at all).  20mm, 30mm and 40mm explosive rounds, sure.  Even .50 caliber.  Heck, the Marine Corp is now deploying HE 12 gauge rounds for use in the their Remington and Mossberg pump shotguns.  Something like explosive 7.62mm, 5.56mm and other common rifle and pistol rounds not so much.  Let me talk to one of my "peeps" and I'll get back to you.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Jancarius on March 18, 2011, 05:35:40 PM
What would be the advantage of a sabot round?  Just using it with an unusual rifling? 

What are some things that would set off red flags with the ATF so I can hastle him with them periodically?

What kind of obstacles would someone typically face in operating their own personal armory?  He, under the bar he owns, has a fortified room which has a large number of shotguns, pistols, and is often where he stores his 50 cal and keeps his suit of body armor.  I don't want to hastle him illegitimately, I just want him not to be able to operate as a uninterfered with personal military base.  There's a reason people don't just have those in their houses, and his character had a section 8 discharge from the military (he saw and reported a battle between the White Council and Red Court vampires).  He wants to be a member of a PMC somewhat, but I'm iffy on that, as I can't see a way to make that materially a disadvantage to counter the fact that he would just go "I draw on the legal and procurement resources of my PMC" especially since I know virtually nothing about hte relevant laws and business practices.

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True, but then in White Night you have one Minor Talent with no overt tech in her home at all, which Harry comments upon as general evidence that a minor practitioner of some sort lives there. He gives the impression that most practitioners of any talent start having troubles with even basic domestic technology. Ultimately, each of these instances came down to different narrative needs.

The rules make it very hard to justify anyone using a computer consistently. "How would they get through school?" people ask. "How do they function in college?" In an ideal world, the White Council would get a tip-off when unexplainable things (attributable to hexing) happened in a classroom, and those budding practitioners would be assessed, and either pulled into the Wizard's world if worthy, or taught to control their energy to function more smoothly in the mundane world.

But it isn't an ideal world, and almost all of these minor practitioners are just out of luck as far as fitting in, until they find some way to capitalize on their abilities. And sadly, usually, that's joining a Cult, creating a Cult, or otherwise developing sketchy magics to get by.

This isn't a game about social justice, however, so if it is in the table's idea of fun that a plucky group of teens/college students are able to juggle life as minor practitioners as well as life in contemporary technology-dominated society, then great! And when the GM wants to make that tech a little unreliable, boom! Fate points.
I do want to make that tech unreliable, but 2 of the three would be much more impacted/expected to use tech than the others.  The changeling sorceress is an undergrad (as is the werewolf, but her hexing power is nil), so would at my university be expected to do a number of online/computer courses.  The shaman is a phd student, and so he would probably need to make frequent use of the electronic resources.  The third character, a painter, is basically unaffected by his own hexing.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: sinker on March 18, 2011, 06:20:22 PM
I think technology should fail at the least opportune moment, creating the most dramatically tense and interesting moment, and sending the story off in new exciting directions full of highly charged conflicts. when you see those moments be ready with a compel. and do your best to create those moments in play.

Agreed. Accidental hexing is usually a compel of their high concept. In that way it should be like any other compel. It needs to have impact on the story and it should be a negative consequence (not a capital C Consequence, but you know what I mean). Other than that it seems like your group is diverse enough in their power sources to have them running around with tech on a regular basis. It's arguable that your shaman (actually having sponsored magic) need never worry about it, though you can still compel him if you like. Seems like your sorceress and your painter would have the most issues, being actual mortal practitioners.

Now for a sponsored magic question:  Rather than having the shaman be just another sorcerer in a party now consisting of three of those, I suggested we put together a sponsored magic for him, where the sponsor is his ancestral spirits.  His trouble is already Ancestral Pact, and I think it ties in better with his high concept of Runaway Native American Shaman.  So far, I was thinking the standard 4 point cost, with the ability to perform certain nature magics with evocation like-methods and speeds.  What I'm kind of at a loss at is how wide should I allow nature to be defined (cause with some finangling, almost anything can be 'nature related'), and what sort of restrictions/drawbacks should I give for his sponsor?  In the story, he's already called up one spirit to ask it about the Sin Eater, and I didn't really know what to have the spirit demand in return, so I just said he had 'debt' to the spirit now.

I'd encourage you to narrow the definition to specific parts. Keep in mind that with summer magic (one that could be most justified in having nature as a element) they narrow it down to "evocation
spell effects that encourage wildness, birth, growth, renewal, and warmth." Then again those are all pretty broad categories as well, so maybe you don't have to worry about it being so. Anyway if you feel it's too much then you could always ask him to pick a specialty (I.E. maybe there's a portion of the natural world that he feels closest to).
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: UmbraLux on March 18, 2011, 09:05:11 PM
But I'm trying to figure out how to model a highly increased chance of hardware and software problems resulting from their magic in a story telling way.  I don't intend it to be something that really screws up their lives, more of a "you've noticed that lately, your computer crashes.  A lot."  and only really treat it as a compel if it's something like "Sheridan, your gun jams on the second shot" as a side effect of the evoker sorcereress throwing around blasts of power.
I'd suggest compelling 'per scene' or even 'per session'.  I'd take a fate point later to end the compel, but the compel itself would last the entire scene at minimum.  For technology central to the story, I'd even go 'per adventure'.  For example, if the group wanted a Shadowrun style data steal run, I'd compel the Wizard the first time he touched the network the data resided on and tell him that compel is in place for the entire adventure (escalate the compel if needed).  Essentially, the compel is about him finding an indirect method of getting data off the computer - not about sitting down and typing at it once.

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Now for a sponsored magic question:  Rather than having the shaman be just another sorcerer in a party now consisting of three of those, I suggested we put together a sponsored magic for him, where the sponsor is his ancestral spirits.  His trouble is already Ancestral Pact, and I think it ties in better with his high concept of Runaway Native American Shaman.  So far, I was thinking the standard 4 point cost, with the ability to perform certain nature magics with evocation like-methods and speeds.  What I'm kind of at a loss at is how wide should I allow nature to be defined (cause with some finangling, almost anything can be 'nature related'), and what sort of restrictions/drawbacks should I give for his sponsor? 
I'd err on the side of allowing its use.  As long as his in-character explanation is reasonable, it works.  (This is in line with the book's advice on using elements.)  As for goals / agenda, I'd say the ancestor spirits want to defend and promote 1) their specific tribe, 2) the Native Americans, and 3) their way of life.  So they're probably not going to assist land development projects...

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Also, thank you much Kommisar: I know next to nothing about guns, despite living in Texas, so having anyone more familiar with them provide information I can reference is extremely helpful.  What's a sabot round?  Also, he started asking me about explosive rounds yesterday, and how much of a damage bonus those would get relative to a normal round...  I first made it clear that regardless of whatever the actual law on explosive rounds are, in my game, they are a illegal (In-character illegal, not banned from game) round, but beyond that I don't really know much about them.
Sabot rounds are used for hunting and target shooting.  They allow hunters to shoot small game with a large caliber rifle (you can put .22 bullets in .30 shells and hunt deer or rabbit simply by switching ammunition).  Sabot rounds also shoot flatter and with a higher velocity (assuming same bullet composition*) which makes them good for long distance target shooting.  I probably wouldn't give a damage bonus, you're firing a smaller round at a higher velocity - call it a wash for game purposes.

*You lose the velocity and flat trajectory benefits if your sabot round has the same (or more) mass as a normal round.  So you probably would not gain this with DU. 

Kommisar covered what a sabot round is, here's a series of pics showing sabot separation (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/01/04/remington-accutip-bonded-sabot-slug/).  These show the plastic sabots before and after reloading the rounds (http://dakotashootin.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html).

What would be the advantage of a sabot round?  Just using it with an unusual rifling? 
Basically the two noted above - use a big rifle for small game and shoot flatter trajectories.  You do gain a side benefit of less barrel fouling - the bullet doesn't touch the rifling, just the sabot. 

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What are some things that would set off red flags with the ATF so I can hastle him with them periodically?
To the best of my knowledge, normal sabot rounds are legal in areas where ammunition is legal.  DU is another story...

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What kind of obstacles would someone typically face in operating their own personal armory?  He, under the bar he owns, has a fortified room which has a large number of shotguns, pistols, and is often where he stores his 50 cal and keeps his suit of body armor. 
The bar is a problem.  It's illegal to bring a firearm into establishments which make some portion (I don't know the exact percentage - and it changes from one state to another) of their business off of alcohol sales.  That alone would get him arrested, have the bar's alcohol license revoked (since he's the licensee / owner), and probably have the weapons confiscated.  Fines and jail time are possible depending on prosecutor and judge. 

There's also a law currently in progress to make it illegal for 'mentally unfit / unstable' people to own / purchase firearms.  I fairly certain a Section 8 would get him looked at if that law is passed in your campaign...

Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Kommisar on March 18, 2011, 10:49:31 PM
Unless your game is the Volunteer State!  As of last year it is completely legal here in Tennessee to bring firearms into bars and, well, any other establishment that does not house our politicians.  Including concealed carry.  Currently, owners can choose to ban weapons on their premises, but there is a push in our legislature to do away with the right of a property owner to prohibit weapons on his property.  Not sure if it will go through or not.  Best bet for anyone running a game with a gun-bunny character that wants to keep it real is to go online and look up your state and municipal firearm laws.  They can vary wildly from state to state.  Or even  among cities/counties in the same state when you get down to certain particulars like storing them in a place of business or discharging the weapon.  Or even in how the weapon is classified.  A guy in Knoxville made this AK-47 conversion that shortened the barrel, removed the stock, removed the brackets such that it could not use a sling, kept the 30 round banana clip and took it to the local park wearing camo and tactical gear.  He then proceeded to stalk through the park and, in the process, scared all the moms there with their kids to death and created a general panic.  He ended up being detained by the police but, due to the conversions he had made on his AK-47, it now fell into the pistol category.  Therefore, it was completely legal for him to carry it into any state and city parks.  He is now suing the state for wrongful detention and harassment. 

For an amusing aside, I recently did that research for my little town here in Tennessee in regards to dealing with a nasty groundhog problem and discovered that my city has a long list of prohibited projectiles that includes; I crap you not, and I quote,  "Snowballs thrown with malicious intent."  No mention of arrows though in that page long list...

In 90% of states, though, you would be in deep bantha poodoo for having an armory under your bar.

Looking at the links provided (thanks UmbraLux; I don't hunt so I hadn't seen the non-shotgun sabots) if you have the money you can buy as many sabot round kits as you can afford.  The Remington 12 gauge sabot shells are around 22 dollars for a box of 5 according to the internets.  I doubt the ATF is really tracking those much.  At least no more than they do normal ammunition purchases.  Which, they do track and follow up on someone buying bulk ammo.  Congress and certain state legislatures are currently throwing around bills that would ban the ATF and other agencies from doing that; but as of right now, they do.  Largely as part of efforts to head off smuggling down to Mexico and the cartels.  You can still buy pallets of all the ammo you want!  All nice and legal.  It just means you will be getting looked at.

FYI, Section 8 Discharges are no longer used by the military.  Army Regulation 635-200, Active Duty Enlisted Administrative Separations. Chapter 5, paragraph 13 (thanks Dad!) now covers discharges for personnel with medically diagnosed psychological conditions.  AR 635-200 took effect back in 2005.  So, it would depend on the character's history and how much of a stickler you wish to be.  If they were drumming him out for having reported vampires and thought he was PTSD or such, he would get a Involuntary Chapter 5-13.  That is if they really wanted him out and pressed it.

Those dishonorably discharged from the United States Military and those having been adjudicated as mental defectives or incompetents; both of which this character could fall into; are prohibited by the Gun Control Act of 1968 for owning a firearm.  And, yes, this means anyone drummed out the military for being a homosexual can never own a fire arm ever again.

This makes life hard for this character.  Very hard.  It means that anything he is purchasing and procuring is either black-market, purchased from a dealer not doing his proper checks, from personal sales (which are not monitored) using the gun-show loophole.  But, the moment he shows up on the ATF's radar, he's in for a full on federal warrant search and seizure visit.  And these guys are really, really good at finding hidden gun vaults and the like. 

NOW, if his command did not hate him and he had some friends in the chain; they would have told him what the bureaucratic tea leaves were reading for his future in the military and it would not have been hard to get him a voluntary discharge for a wide range of reasons.  Which would allow him to legally own firearms.


SABOT ROUNDS.  The purpose of a saboted round is to allow one to fire a smaller projectile with the energy normally reserved for larger rounds.  Such as putting a 7.62mm tungsten alloyed armor piercing round inside a .50 cal sabot so you can fire it out of your .50 cal weapon with all the energy of that .50 round behind it.  This is useful in armor piercing applications mostly.  Or, in the civilian hunting arena, as I have learned, to be able to fire smaller rounds without needing to carry a different weapon.  Shotguns use it to gain a great deal of additional accuracy and energy over range.  A DU round would use a sabot round to keep the DU core from tearing your barrel to crap.

EXPLOSIVE ROUNDS.  A lot of the time, people will refer to incendiary tracer rounds as "explosive" rounds.  This occurred often in accounts of their use on the Eastern Front of World War II.  Especially from accounts of snipers on both sides.  There were actually explosive rounds and still are.  They are utterly prohibited by all sorts of various international treaties such as the Hague and Geneva Conventions from being used against human/non-materiel targets.  They were used on the Eastern Front of WWII because Lenin removed the USSR from all previous "Tsarist" international treaties and the Germans and Soviets really hated each other at that point.  All German snipers were strictly verboten from taking any explosive/incendiary rounds with them if they were transferred to other theaters.

True explosive rounds are designed for armor piercing; which is legal under all those treaties.  They work not by some fancy, miniature fuse system in the round itself.  They have a magnesium or phosphorus tip that ignites upon impact due to the KE of the impact which, then, detonates the explosive core behind the tip.  There are many, many variations of exactly how this works.  Most of them are designed to work in 20mm and larger rounds.  Largely for aircraft, attack helicopters, and AFVs.  They do make .50cal explosive rounds for use on armored targets.  The problem is, if you shoot a soft target with them (say a human), the bullet will punch right through them and not detonate as nothing will create enough frictional heat to ignite the incendiary.  Not even body armor would be enough to set it off.  Maybe!  Maybe if you hit the strike plate of the really heavy duty military issue body armor.  Bigger rounds can and do use mechanical fuses as well, but getting one to work in even a .50 cal round would be tough.  Anything smaller is nearing impractical and/or extremely expensive.

As for doing more damage.  It's blow through.  You hit a human target with a .50 cal round inside effective range, do you really think that having it go boom will make any bit of difference to anyone but the forensics team that shows up later?   ;D

Having HE rounds used in a firefight in the US is a good way to have every federal law enforcement agency and Homeland Security crawling over your city like ants in a kicked over hive.  No one with any brains is going to see enough effectiveness out of their use to risk the attention it will bring.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: zenten on March 19, 2011, 12:13:04 AM
True explosive rounds are designed for armor piercing; which is legal under all those treaties.  They work not by some fancy, miniature fuse system in the round itself.  They have a magnesium or phosphorus tip that ignites upon impact due to the KE of the impact which, then, detonates the explosive core behind the tip.  There are many, many variations of exactly how this works.  Most of them are designed to work in 20mm and larger rounds.  Largely for aircraft, attack helicopters, and AFVs.  They do make .50cal explosive rounds for use on armored targets.  The problem is, if you shoot a soft target with them (say a human), the bullet will punch right through them and not detonate as nothing will create enough frictional heat to ignite the incendiary.  Not even body armor would be enough to set it off.  Maybe!  Maybe if you hit the strike plate of the really heavy duty military issue body armor.  Bigger rounds can and do use mechanical fuses as well, but getting one to work in even a .50 cal round would be tough.  Anything smaller is nearing impractical and/or extremely expensive.

As for doing more damage.  It's blow through.  You hit a human target with a .50 cal round inside effective range, do you really think that having it go boom will make any bit of difference to anyone but the forensics team that shows up later?   ;D

I'm thinking some monster with Mythic Toughness or the like is the intended target for something like that.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Kommisar on March 19, 2011, 01:28:53 AM
True, and that is sort of what I figured.  But, this falls completely outside the realm of physics as I understand them.  It would have to be the call of any GM/group as to how such a round would interact with any given supernatural critter/god/goddes/deamon.  At least, that is my opinion.  After all, while there is one power called "Mythic Toughness" I can see many different means by which a supernatural entity could come by that power.

Were I to run it, I would give something like a .50 cal (12.7mm) to 20mm HIEAP (High Explosive Incendiary Armor Piercing) round such as the Mk211 Mod 0 .50 cal round I would slap on an AP 3 rating for the weapon.  Meaning, it would ignore 3 levels of Armor on any given target.  A round that large would be a Weapon 4 already and I would not change it.  If reasonable, I would allow for hitting a flammable target to be justification for dropping a non-sticky aspect of "Ignited" on the scene.  Essentially a maneuver using Guns Skill.

For a DU sabot round at .50 cal such as the M903 SLAP (Saboted Light Armor Penetrator) but changing out the normal Tungsten heavy allow penetrator for one made of DU, I would allow for it to satisfy the catch for certain critters and spirits, AP rating of 4 and keep it as a Weapon 4.

For shooting out vehicles and other light armored or inanimate soft targets, I would actually treat it as a maneuver since we really don't have stats for things like cars, trucks and AFVs.  And after years of GURPS, I have no interest in building a whole book just for vehicle stats nor do I see a need.  IMHO, using a .50 BMG round is rational enough to justify making the maneuver against the vehicle using your Guns Skill.  If successful against either the targets Endurance or the drivers Drive Skill, you can drop an appropriate aspect on the vehicle.  Such as "Cracked Engine Block" or "Ruptured Fuel Tank".  Compel as you will from there.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: UmbraLux on March 19, 2011, 02:18:40 AM
I like the idea of adding AP without changing the Weapon rating, Kommisar.  It avoids a certain game's constant escalations...   ;)
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Jancarius on March 19, 2011, 02:27:03 AM
I like that idea as well, but unfortunately, I think he just wants to shoot everything with it.  Since his 'resources' don't decrease with use, I'm guessing he'll just try and buy a huge quantity of the heaviest grade ammo he can.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: UmbraLux on March 19, 2011, 02:50:32 AM
Remind him indiscriminate fire with armor piercing (or even normal) rounds is a Very Bad Thing (TM).  Even brick or concrete walls won't stop a .50 caliber.  Smaller normal rounds aren't harmless either, just watch the news.  Senseless tragedies like that occur far to often.

Rules to remember:
 - Treat every gun as armed.  Don't point it at anything you're not willing to shoot. 
 - Treat every gun as deadly.  Don't shoot anything you're not wanting to kill. 
 - Always know what is beyond your target. 

The down side of those are things for GMs to keep in mind...
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: mostlyawake on March 19, 2011, 03:27:49 AM
What I'm trying to figure out is how to handle this lower level hexing.  I don't want them to have their cars break down everytime they get in them, for example.  And the shaman, at least, has a 'beat up old chevy' of some unspecified year that he drives specifically for that purpose.  And clearly, they must still be able to at least use computers some of the time.  But I'm trying to figure out how to model a highly increased chance of hardware and software problems resulting from their magic in a story telling way.  I don't intend it to be something that really screws up their lives, more of a "you've noticed that lately, your computer crashes.  A lot."  and only really treat it as a compel if it's something like "Sheridan, your gun jams on the second shot" as a side effect of the evoker sorcereress throwing around blasts of power.

If you just want it for story effect, then whenever they roll badly on a roll - say, like, failing a contacts roll - just blame it on a hex. "You knew just the guy to call, but when you went to call him your entire phone list in your cell phone appeared to be missing." miss a drive roll by one? "For a moment, the car just completely stalls, you lose power steering, the lights go out.  You realize your heart is racing and that your emotions may be causing your magic to make the car go wonky".

Basically, you aren't imposing ANY penalty mechanically... you're just blaming the players' bad rolls on a story aspect.

This can be really cool because the driver could say, "Ok, I want to take a deep breathe and really focus" as a discipline manuever to assist the next drive roll. 
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Jancarius on March 19, 2011, 09:08:49 PM
If you just want it for story effect, then whenever they roll badly on a roll - say, like, failing a contacts roll - just blame it on a hex. "You knew just the guy to call, but when you went to call him your entire phone list in your cell phone appeared to be missing." miss a drive roll by one? "For a moment, the car just completely stalls, you lose power steering, the lights go out.  You realize your heart is racing and that your emotions may be causing your magic to make the car go wonky".

Basically, you aren't imposing ANY penalty mechanically... you're just blaming the players' bad rolls on a story aspect.

This can be really cool because the driver could say, "Ok, I want to take a deep breathe and really focus" as a discipline manuever to assist the next drive roll. 

I really like this idea.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Jancarius on March 27, 2011, 05:34:18 AM
Okay, so today's session included our Kincaid expy engaging two other trained mercanries and ended with him getting taken out in a gun fight.  I had it end with him having a belly wound, which 'didn't rupture anything vital'.  Now, I have his Tarsiel-shadow trying to get him to trade a favor for a favor in 'patching him up', but he's steadily refusing it so far. 

So, it may be a bit heavy handed, but I'm considering having the two mercs who dropped him (or one of their 7 remaining active team members) try and eliminate him in the hospital (giving him a "Take Tarsiel's deal or die" situation).  Otherwise, I can't see how I could get him back into play in time for the big conflict with the main bad (a White Court). 

The White Court doesn't really care much about the Kincaid-expy, he was just targeting him as eliminating support for his main 2 targets, the changeling sorceress and the paintomancer, but I was somewhat counting on him being there to help take out the White Court.  What do you guys advise as ways to bring him back in?
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: noclue on March 27, 2011, 09:15:59 AM
He has a consequence, right? That doesn't put him out of play.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Jancarius on March 27, 2011, 09:50:10 AM
He thinks (and I dunno if correctly, but it sounds right), that if he has a gunshot wound in his stomach, he won't be getting out of bed for any kind of strenuous activity unless forced to.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: UmbraLux on March 27, 2011, 04:23:52 PM
Okay, so today's session included our Kincaid expy engaging two other trained mercanries and ended with him getting taken out in a gun fight.  I had it end with him having a belly wound, which 'didn't rupture anything vital'.  Now, I have his Tarsiel-shadow trying to get him to trade a favor for a favor in 'patching him up', but he's steadily refusing it so far. 

So, it may be a bit heavy handed, but I'm considering having the two mercs who dropped him (or one of their 7 remaining active team members) try and eliminate him in the hospital (giving him a "Take Tarsiel's deal or die" situation).  Otherwise, I can't see how I could get him back into play in time for the big conflict with the main bad (a White Court). 
I recommend against making it a binary choice unless the player has already agreed to one of the two options (death or Denarion).  That said, the shadow could simply decide to heal him without the favor in order to gain more time.  This is particularly effective if the shadow acts in a way that leaves questions...

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The White Court doesn't really care much about the Kincaid-expy, he was just targeting him as eliminating support for his main 2 targets, the changeling sorceress and the paintomancer, but I was somewhat counting on him being there to help take out the White Court.  What do you guys advise as ways to bring him back in?
If they don't care about the spy, I'd skip the attack scenario.  What I would do is 1) have the Denarion heal him at least partially and do not tell him it was a freeby (leave that for speculation) and 2) have the healing leave an obvious and hellish mark.  A mark in the form of satan's name written in Hebrew or equivalent.  Something he'll have to hide.  Then the favor trading can be about removing this mark.   ;D

Also, next time he just misses, have the shadow offer just enough help to turn that into a hit...
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: Tedronai on March 27, 2011, 08:39:20 PM
He thinks (and I dunno if correctly, but it sounds right), that if he has a gunshot wound in his stomach, he won't be getting out of bed for any kind of strenuous activity unless forced to.

I hope you're giving him a Fate Point for that obvious self-compel
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: noclue on March 27, 2011, 11:44:43 PM
He thinks (and I dunno if correctly, but it sounds right), that if he has a gunshot wound in his stomach, he won't be getting out of bed for any kind of strenuous activity unless forced to.

Okay, force him out of bed. Have the mercs go for him. Have the mercs go for his friends and let him know about it. He still doesn't have to take the deal though. He can fight wounded. Or maybe he can figure out some other way to shrug off the wounds for a bit longer.

And, yeah he does seem to be earning some fate points in there.
Title: Re: Questions about how some things work
Post by: sinker on March 28, 2011, 01:40:44 AM
You can always actually talk to the player and be straight with him. Tell him that you can give him a fate point for self-compelling himself out of a major scene, or that he can join them. Also make sure he has more options than simply accepting Tarsiel's help. It's not a great idea to force something like that on a player if it's really not what they want. Hell, is he playing the character well by his choices? If it fits the character that he's resisting the Denarian, and toughing it through a major scene with a sort-of patched up belly wound then you could even give him fate for that (compel him to help his friends even though he's hurting). For that matter that totally fits the setting. Sounds like a great ending to a dresden files novel.