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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: ryanshowseason2 on March 09, 2011, 02:01:03 PM
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Are these possible? I saw AOE rules for attacking in YS and manuever rules as well, but they never specified if AOE manuevers were possible... IE a grease spell to coat the ground with slippery oil...or a AOE time slow effect to drop an aspect of slowed on all targets within.
Was this intentionally omitted? Overlooked? Horribly broken?
I don't think it is as long as its a one turn aspect. Paying for duration would have to be reworked though...
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Well, I suppose it would depend on the maneuver, but if you're talking about placing a purely magical maneuver on a zone I would treat it as a scene aspect that applies only to that zone.
Use the rules for attacking a zone, meaning the caster would need to assign 2 shifts of power to target the zone, plus another 2 if they wish to target multiple zones. I would also handle duration the same way the book does for regular maneuvers, so we're talking 3 shifts for a magical maneuver, +2 per zone, +1 shift per exchange you want it to last.
Once the Aspect (slippery, or mmmooovvviiinnnggg ssslllooowwwlllyyy) is in place the caster would get the usual free tag, and the Aspect could be compelled as normal.
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A one time tag? or a free tag for every combatant who was put under the effect?
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No, just one free tag total. The big deal here would be the fact that most of the folks in the zone should be getting compelled.
If you want a free tag on multiple people I'd say you'd treat it like a spray attack. Split up the targeting roll, and each target must have the appropriate number of shifts assigned to them (3 or more, if the resisting skill is Great or better). I'd allow persistence to be bought for all the Aspects together.
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Long time lurker, but just wanted to chime in on this one.
Not necessarily I suppose a maneuver, but for what you described, I'd just treat it as a single-action block against multiple people (allowed by YS 210 Resolving Blocks).
So like grease might be a block against movement as everyone falls on their butts.
Slow time might be block against attacks (though it'd be odd that they could move out of the zone, but not attack out of it).
The point is though, with a block you can lock down either all action on a single target or a specific sort of action on multiples.
If you're looking to lay aspects on people, then ignore this and go with what DFJunkie suggested. If just locking them down, then I think this would be simpler.
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Remember when you use the one free tag to effect everyone in the area the effect can be having a tempary aspect so If the enemy decide not to pay a fate point then each enemy will have an aspect to tag. An example of this would be to compel the area aspect 'super slippery surface' to cause all people in the area to fall thus giving them the 'fallen' aspect. In away Junkies method is more broken because the only resistance the enemy has to this effect is to spend a fate point which makes the manouvre useful just to strip a bunch of your enemies of fate points.
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An example of this would be to compel the area aspect 'super slippery surface' to cause all people in the area to fall thus giving them the 'fallen' aspect.
I'm pretty sure that each person who would be compelled to fall in that scenario would get their own fate point, just like every individual who is affected by a scene aspect would.
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There is a debate whether they would get a fate point as non have been spend and so there are no fate points going around.
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There is a debate whether they would get a fate point as non have been spend and so there are no fate points going around.
Well I'm not aware of that debate, but if someone's being compelled (aside from a free compel via a tag) the person on the receiving end of the compel gets a fate point, at least in my game.
On YS 107 it addresses the idea of PCs making mass compels, "Technically speaking, a player could try to use a scene aspect to initiate a mass compel, but it'd be a pretty expensive proposition - he'd have to spend a fate point for every character he wants to be affected by the compel." Now, if you read that to mean that the only way that a group of NPCs can be compelled is via a player initiated compel that's fine, I can't think of any thing in the rules to contradict it. On the other hand, I assume that NPCs are affected by scene aspects the same way that PCs are, so if they're trying to run or fight on a slippery floor I'd compel them to fall. If a PC initiates the compel instead I'd give them a little more latitude to determine the effects of the fall, such as "he falls and drops his gun," or something like that.
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A spell shouldn't just effect the entire scene though that is way too powerful. I was thinking more along the lines of a temporary aspect that is taggable once on each afflicted npc/pc and dissapears at the end of the duration.
Now that aspect would effect the next action that involves the npc/pc for free. So an attacker may get the free tag or anyone defending against the afflicted npc/pc gets the free tag. Either way though the aspect is gone after the duration.
Compelling isn't a bad concept either though.
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A spell shouldn't just effect the entire scene though that is way too powerful.
Why? If you shoot out the lights with a gun that could be a maneuver placing the dark aspect on the scene. If you throw a molotov cocktail into the middle of your opponents it would place the on fire aspect there. I would say the only difference between evocation maneuvers that affect scene aspects and regular ones is that the evocation maneuver has a defined duration.
Now that aspect would effect the next action that involves the npc/pc for free. So an attacker may get the free tag or anyone defending against the afflicted npc/pc gets the free tag.
This is the assumption I don't understand. You have created a single aspect. Therefore you get one single free tag, not one per affected person, to use or pass. Yes, the next time they act they will have to contend with the new scene aspect, and may be compelled by it, but I think it would be a regular compel which they would get a fate point for accepting.
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Invoke-for-Effect/Compels should be working the same way as tags: spend a Fate Point, unless circumstances indicate that the tag should be free.
Note that a "free tag" for discovering or placing an Aspect can either be a +2 to a roll, a reroll, or an Invoke For Effect (I didn't get this last one for a long time).
The "disagreement" was settled by Fred Hicks awhile back (but people refused to accept it even at the time). He explains that usually, an Invoke for Effect is something that *helps* the player invoking it. However, when the Invoke for Effect ends up asking to do the same thing as a Compel (clearly causing a direct complication for the target), then the player invoking the Aspect still gets to do it for free, but at that point, the GM takes over, runs it as if it had been a Compel, and brokers a Fate Point to the NPC who was being Compelled by the Invoke for Effect.
What I'm more interested in is how to run AoE Aspects which allow a free tag, and I think that the Spray option is best for a Zonewide Maneuver placing a free-taggable Aspect.
What it sounds like folks want out of this slick spell, though, is a block on all actions.
My question, then, is this:
You can cast an Evocation Block that makes it either A) harder for one target to do any action (much like a grapple), or B) harder for everybody in the area to do one type of action (presumably to the caster, like a Veil, which is a Perception Block against perceiving the target), and neither of them require you spend two shifts to affect a whole Zone.
With this in mind, then:
1) is there a difference between:
A) a Veil (Perception Block) making it hard for everyone in that and surrounding Zones to perceive the target, and
B) a Grease Slick (Movement Block, or Attack Block, as you decide) making it hard for everyone in that Zone to perform that one action (movement or attack)?
If no, then it should be fair in the rules to make a Zonewide Evocation Block that makes it harder for all the targets in the area to do any action.
If yes, then you probably want to make it a ZoneWide effect simply to effect everybody with the single action Block. *THEN* the question is... how many shifts do you want to charge to make it Zonewide *and* a Block against all actions?
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Why? If you shoot out the lights with a gun that could be a maneuver placing the dark aspect on the scene. If you throw a molotov cocktail into the middle of your opponents it would place the on fire aspect there. I would say the only difference between evocation maneuvers that affect scene aspects and regular ones is that the evocation maneuver has a defined duration.
The difference here is that these environmental Aspects can affect the players as well as the other NPCs. When The Building is On Fire, the GM can rain down Fate Points on everyone in that area to Compel them - players and NPCs alike.
In the FATE game economy, Aspects created or possessed by players represent plot *potential* (not plot actuality), and so players need Fate Points to activate that plot potential and make it manifest a narrative advantage or effect. Players do get an initial "free tag" for having discovered or placed an Aspect, but after that, it generally requires Fate points to keep the Aspect relevant to the fight.
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I have found the best thing to do if you are a wizard who wants to use area of effect debilitation spells is flavoured attacks a flash bang is a physical attack that aims at causeing blindness or deafness as extreme concequences with a good first spell you are going to cause a concequence which you can then tag for all the benefits of a manouvre.
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The difference here is that these environmental Aspects can affect the players as well as the other NPCs.
So the issue you have with it is that the maneuver only affects a single zone? If a player were to move into the affected area of an evocation maneuver they would become subject to the effects of that maneuver (possible compels) just like an NPC that's already there.
I wouldn't have a problem with a non-magical maneuver creating an aspect that applied only to a single zone, such as throwing out a bunch of marbles to give a zone bad footing or shooting up an already rotten wooden floor to give it ready to collapse.
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Remember when you use the one free tag to effect everyone in the area the effect can be having a temporary aspect so If the enemy decide not to pay a fate point then each enemy will have an aspect to tag. An example of this would be to compel the area aspect 'super slippery surface' to cause all people in the area to fall thus giving them the 'fallen' aspect. In away Junkies method is more broken because the only resistance the enemy has to this effect is to spend a fate point which makes the maneuver useful just to strip a bunch of your enemies of fate points.
I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're getting at here. Getting a free tag would only make effecting one of those targets free (even in a mass compel), the PC would still have to pay for the rest (in the same way that a mass compel requires a fate point per target, not just one fate point). So, yes, the enemies only defense would be to spend fate points to resist, but the effect would cost the PC massively, so thats fair, and only one of the targets wont be receiving a point for the inconvenience.
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So the issue you have with it is that the maneuver only affects a single zone?
Not at all! My point is that there is a difference between:
A) an Environmental Aspect which can be Compelled against the PCs as well as the NPCs (This Building is On Fire), and
B) an Environmental Aspect (usually in a neighboring Zone) which can only be Compelled against the NPCs because the PCs aren't there to be affected (The Bad Guys' Car Is On Fire).
If a player were to move into the affected area of an evocation maneuver they would become subject to the effects of that maneuver (possible compels) just like an NPC that's already there.
Absolutely - you are correct!
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Why? If you shoot out the lights with a gun that could be a maneuver placing the dark aspect on the scene. If you throw a molotov cocktail into the middle of your opponents it would place the on fire aspect there. I would say the only difference between evocation maneuvers that affect scene aspects and regular ones is that the evocation maneuver has a defined duration.
The difference here is that the light bulb was a pre existing condition of the scene that had to be there to make it happen in the first place. Magic is creating something out of literally nothing. Saying that a grease spell immediately effects the entire scene puts it on all zones at the same time and makes it usable against the caster. The intent isn't to cover the entire football field with grease, only the 50 yard line. Besides this I don't recall any rules for having magic effect the entirety of a scene, only for zones. Consequently there aren't any rules for having magic maneuver on a zone wide level either. But magic can maneuver on a single target and magic can attack on a zone wide level, so it stands to reason you would be able to maneuver against multiples.
This is the assumption I don't understand. You have created a single aspect. Therefore you get one single free tag, not one per affected person, to use or pass. Yes, the next time they act they will have to contend with the new scene aspect, and may be compelled by it, but I think it would be a regular compel which they would get a fate point for accepting.
Your scene aspect logic is what confuses you in this respect. You're not allowing yourself to see it in another way. As in aspect on the character just like normal maneuvering works. When I maneuver behind someone to flank them it isn't a scene aspect! It is attached directly to the person, the same goes for single target magic maneuvers. Multi target maneuvers should do it in the same fashion rather than throwing it on the whole scene. The cost DOES need to be appropriate though.
I thought carefully about making it a zonewide block as well, but that didn't make sense either once someone breaks the block it is gone, so once one person makes it across the slick now everyone can? It immediately dispels? =/
I think I have a fairer idea though to make the cost match the effect. This is for evocation mind you.
1. The caster has to determine the amount of targets. If rote this will be pre determined and set in stone as to how many it can effect at once.
2. The spell Will cost -2 per zone + -3 for maneuver effects + -1 For each target.
( So an AOE 1 target would be ludicrous an ill advised. A 2 target would be on par, and savings at 3 target)
3. Duration would be added at -1 per target + -2 per zone.
4. Just like a block, power could be fed in each turn. A rote spell could only be fed into if another rote spell existed for that sole purpose.
5. Each target gains the desired aspect that is a free tag once, only casting again would allow for another free tag.
6. The target gains a fate point each time the aspect is used against them.
7. The aspect may be used as either a compel at cast time or tag for +2 attacking-2 defending or re-roll if attacking.
8. Additional targets walking in will increase required power automatically, this can easily throw you out of rote spell mode. If you can't control the excess power and go into backlash the spell continues, fallout discontinues the spell immediately and does not effect the current targets.
I think this limits the scope of the concept enough to make it useful but not so powerful as to effect 500 enemies in the same zone for 5 shifts of power.
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I'm inclined to think that it would not be entirely unreasonable to make a house rule that allowed a caster to apply the "2 shifts of power makes it affect a zone" capability to a maneuver spell, thus creating an aspect on each target in the zone, with a free tag on each.
Too powerful? Consider the following logic:
Let say I'm fighting against a group of mooks. They're not terribly strong, and barring terrible luck I find that a 3 shift (weapon:3) attack spell is enough to leave one of them with a mild consequence (with the usual free tag). Alternatively, I could cast a maneuver spell for 3 shifts to place an aspect (and free tag) on the target, though unless I boosted the spell power the aspect would last only one exchange (as opposed to the remainder of this scene and next scene for the consequence).
But taking on one mook at a time isn't going to cut it. Luckily, they've grouped up to bolster their courage, so I could (assuming reasonable rolls) expect that a 5 shift (weapon:3, 1 zone AoE) attack spell would leave them all with a mild consequence, along with a free tag *each*. For only +2 shifts to the power of the spell.
So given that the maneuver option is weaker (due to limited duration), why shouldn't it be reasonable to be able to create a similar effect with a maneuver spell?
Another way of looking at it: If I cast a maneuver on myself, then used the free tag +2 to boost the damage on a later AoE attack spell that affected everyone in the mob, how is that different that casting an AoE maneuver against a mob, then later casting an AoE attack spell and tagging each of those aspects to get a +2 against the the target it was attached to?
Am I missing some major point of balance?
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I could see one potential problem with area of effect manoeuvres which is the possibility of multiple tagging. I am pretty certain there must be a rule somewhere in the core book forbidding this but say you caused eight enemies to have the temporary aspect 'stunned' then you might be able to tag all of the eight enemies free 'stunned' tags in your next area of effect spell to gain a +16.
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I'm not sure: do the rules let a player "free tag" (or even know) a Consequence that their character inflicted? I may have overlooked this aspect of the rules, so please let me know if this is an explicit option.
True, it is an Aspect which the player ostensibly placed on the opponent.
However, would the reverse be true? When an NPC forces a PC to take a Consequence, would the NPC automatically know the Consequence, and be able to tag it once for free?
Or would Players prefer Consequences be kept to themselves until the NPC succeeds at an Assessment action to figure out the PC is wounded/winded/tired/sprained/etc.?
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Yes, Consequences are aspects which can be tagged
And no, you don't need any assessment. Consequences are usually known
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Yes, Consequences are aspects which can be tagged
Well, yes, they are, and they can be, if known.
Where I'm uncertain on the rules is: are Consequences automatically known by the one who created them? I'm forgetting.
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YS105:
There are several ways you can gain access to an aspect that is on another character or scene:
Inflict a consequence
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Thanks, Steppenwolf! That will suffice.
Are GMs generally having their NPCs Compel/Invoke those Consequences, or do most of us give the PCs a pass?
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I'm inclined to think that it would not be entirely unreasonable to make a house rule that allowed a caster to apply the "2 shifts of power makes it affect a zone" capability to a maneuver spell, thus creating an aspect on each target in the zone, with a free tag on each.
Too powerful? Consider the following logic:
Let say I'm fighting against a group of mooks. They're not terribly strong, and barring terrible luck I find that a 3 shift (weapon:3) attack spell is enough to leave one of them with a mild consequence (with the usual free tag). Alternatively, I could cast a maneuver spell for 3 shifts to place an aspect (and free tag) on the target, though unless I boosted the spell power the aspect would last only one exchange (as opposed to the remainder of this scene and next scene for the consequence).
But taking on one mook at a time isn't going to cut it. Luckily, they've grouped up to bolster their courage, so I could (assuming reasonable rolls) expect that a 5 shift (weapon:3, 1 zone AoE) attack spell would leave them all with a mild consequence, along with a free tag *each*. For only +2 shifts to the power of the spell.
So given that the maneuver option is weaker (due to limited duration), why shouldn't it be reasonable to be able to create a similar effect with a maneuver spell?
Another way of looking at it: If I cast a maneuver on myself, then used the free tag +2 to boost the damage on a later AoE attack spell that affected everyone in the mob, how is that different that casting an AoE maneuver against a mob, then later casting an AoE attack spell and tagging each of those aspects to get a +2 against the the target it was attached to?
Am I missing some major point of balance?
Wow I completely forgot about that, and the ability to tag consequences you inflicted. Is that rule intended for the person who inflicted the consequence? I believe it is. A spell maneuver would still be worth something in my opinion because anyone could tag that temporary aspect, the same goes for maneuvering yourself. However you have brought up a good point and the cost of such a thing should be in the neighborhood of this. I especially appreciate the concept that it is a consequence for *each* combatant.
I could see one potential problem with area of effect manoeuvres which is the possibility of multiple tagging. I am pretty certain there must be a rule somewhere in the core book forbidding this but say you caused eight enemies to have the temporary aspect 'stunned' then you might be able to tag all of the eight enemies free 'stunned' tags in your next area of effect spell to gain a +16.
This probably falls under GM common sense, but I look at it this way. You're aiming at an entire zone! Your aim which is the equivalent of hitting the broadside of a barn isn't improved by enemies being stunned since you're gunning for an area. Now their individual ability to defend *IS* effected by their being stunned. Which will net them each probly 2 more damage a piece. *NOT* the caster getting some silly bonus to aim better at the barn, the barn would have to have an aspect that made it easier to aim at, like "x marks the spot", or "bullseye"
tldr: You're aiming at a general area not all the individual combatants at once.