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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: bitterpill on March 06, 2011, 01:50:46 AM
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Does the poison from fists ignore toughness power armour?
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Had this discussion the other day with some people in chat. My stance was: "No it does not."
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I was a part of that conversation, and my opinion is yes it does.
My point of view is that Toughness gives you tough skin, harder bones. It doesn't seem like it would give you blood filtration to remove poison.
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All Physical Stress reduction is all physical stress in my book. Poison clearly does physical stress damage.
Edit: Also that argument is predicated that it's only their skin/bones that are tougher. Which I disagree with.
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I see so it is a no right answer gm mandate situation.
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I agree with both Mal_Luck and MijRai. I discussed this with my group and we agreed that poison bypasses armor.
Talk it over with your group and decide how it works for you. Thats the best way :)
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If the "armor" doesn't apply does that mean the extra stress boxes don't either?
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I think Poison should not bypass Toughness Based armor (unless the Catch is specifically Poison. Which I argue would be the case if one were to create a Buffy-esque Slayer)
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The Toughness power gives armor against *all* physical stress ("all" is even emphasized in the book.) Poison would be a perfectly good Catch for a Toughness power, but the rules are quite clear as to how the power works. Also, if you want a character that has physically tough skin and bones (and presumably organs), then your Catch would be any non-physical force (such as disease, poison, etc.)
I see so it is a no right answer gm mandate situation.
Only in the sense that anything is a GM mandated situation. The rule says "all physical stress". If the poison does physical stress then the power provides "armor" against it. There could certainly be a poison that satisfies a character's Catch, or even one so deadly that it satisfies all Catches (though this seems unlikely and sounds like a really terrible plot idea.)
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I can see a way around in a way: if the claws hit the character for damage, then poison applies, because in most cases that would mean that through clawing or whatever means the poison has entered the blood stream. Although that still leaves quite a few open endings.
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I think that Toughness armour ought to work against poison. Toughness reflects all forms of physical durability, and it makes sense to me that a creature with Mythic Toughness would be able to drink cyanide and not suffer for it.
That being said, I kinda like the idea of a poison that satisfies all catches as with the All Creatures Are Equal Before God power. The World Serpent from norse mythology definitely deserves that power.
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I can see a way around in a way: if the claws hit the character for damage, then poison applies, because in most cases that would mean that through clawing or whatever means the poison has entered the blood stream. Although that still leaves quite a few open endings.
The disconnect seems to be that people consider the "armor" of the Toughness powers to be "tough skin". If that were the case the ability wouldn't say "all physical stress". It's not a matter of them being just tough to beat on. They're resistant to poisons, disease, hot or cold environments, high pressure, etc. Any or all of these would be perfectly fine Catches for a character. And if you wanted it to be just tougher skin, then you could get a pretty hefty Catch (it's specific, and lots of things that people have easy access to get around it.)
That being said, I kinda like the idea of a poison that satisfies all catches as with the All Creatures Are Equal Before God power. The World Serpent from norse mythology definitely deserves that power.
I stand corrected. That's an excellent example of a poison that probably would have an equivalent effect to All Creatures Are Equal Before God.
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Would a catch to supernatural venom +1 be satisfied by just attacking with venomous claws or would only the poison damage bypass the catch?
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Depends on trappings. And individual groups, of course. I'd suggest making a distinction between something which 'adds poison' and something which 'modifies the damage to be poison based'. The difference between poison applied to a dagger and a dagger made of a poisonous material.
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I can see a way around in a way: if the claws hit the character for damage, then poison applies, because in most cases that would mean that through clawing or whatever means the poison has entered the blood stream. Although that still leaves quite a few open endings.
I've experimented with stacking Venom and Claw damage in a game, and it is overkill. The Venomous ability is doing enough damage that one can take for granted that some of it is "Claw" damage.
Also, I fear that folks may be forgetting that this system is an abstracted narrative mechanism, and not a point-based, finely tuned combat simulator.
I also support Toughness as providing sufficient defense against the physical stress of a Venomous attack (unless Poison/Venom is the Catch, of course), since Toughness powers are a combination of several effects rolled up into one, the sum of which covers the Armored Skin portion as well as the general increase in the heartiness of a creature with the ability.
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Yeah, I fall in on the "armor applies" portion of the debate, because the armor rating does not simply denote a hard candy shell surrounding the gooey and vulnerable insides (unless it does, in which case the Catch should reflect that) but rather damage resistance at all levels of function, including the ability to resist poison damage.
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First off, I don't see where the 'armored skin' definition of Toughness is coming from. The wording of the Toughness power uses terms like 'fortitude' and 'difficult to kill' and 'able to take more punishment'. None of this implies to me that the resistance granted stops upon passing through the skin. The wording on the power seems even more clear: "Hard to Hurt. You naturally have Armor:1 against all physical stress." Note that I did not add the emphasis to 'all' in that quote. Perhaps the the use of the word 'armor' is confusing? In the game mechanics, it simply refers to the ability to reduce incoming damage from sources appropriate to the power that grants it. So if the stress inflicted is physical, and there is no other mechanic (such as an appropriate Catch or the use of a Sword of the Cross), then the stress is reduced by the Armor granted by the Toughness.
Would a catch to supernatural venom +1 be satisfied by just attacking with venomous claws or would only the poison damage bypass the catch?
Judging from the rules as written, it looks as though having Venomous Claws gives you two attack modes. You can make a normal 'claw' attack in which case you count as having Weapon:2 for your Fists attack, but inflict no special damage due to the Venom. You can alternatively perform what for a lack of a better term I will call a 'Venom' maneuver which, if successful, applies the Poisoned aspect with the effects as described in the Venomous power -- but don't do normal attack damage and therefore don't take advantage of the Weapon:2, since you were maneuvering, not attacking. So you'll never have a 'claw' portion and a 'poison' portion of the attack.
That said, I think that I would rule that even the basic attack, when made with Venomous Claws, would count as 'poisoned' for purposes of the Catch you mentioned. After all, you don't have to do a special 'iron' attack with a sword in order to satisfy the Catch of Fae, the fact that the sword is iron is enough; in the same way, the fact that "your claws are venemous" says to me that they would satisfy a Catch for venom.