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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: bibliophile20 on March 05, 2011, 07:04:01 PM

Title: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: bibliophile20 on March 05, 2011, 07:04:01 PM
So, I've got that biomancer warlock (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24198.0.html) that I mentioned a while back; he's working for a mob boss in my game, doing little things like designer drug crafting, goon augmentation... and, the point of this thread, magical plastic surgery.

So, here's the question: What can a skilled biomancer do in terms of cosmetic modification to someone? 

And what complexities would you assign for having that change last for "a mortal's lifetime"?
I was thinking things like:
New face
New fingerprints
New hair
Taller
Shorter
Fatter
Skinnier
Gender swap
etc and so forth.

Note that this is for a criminal organization, giving a select clientele a new lease on life, without pesky interventions by the FBI or Interpol... ;)  So this is pretty lucrative for them.

And, as a general comment, I think all of these fall solidly in the gray area of the 2nd Law... and will, for my game's purposes. 
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: deathwombat on March 05, 2011, 07:11:57 PM
Go for it
Already a warlock!
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: Moriden on March 05, 2011, 08:00:44 PM
I think your looking at two different levels. what i will refer to as mutations and permanent alterations.

Mutations, are an instantaneous affect that through damage alters a part of the persons body these should be fairly simple, relatively permanent on a human, and are in the grey area. Examples would include

Fatter  curse the person in such a way that they dont absorb nutrients properly, thus they grow fatter.       
Complexity ~6 to beat there defense roll, +x to cause a consequence which will be the spells duration.
Skinnier  As above           

New face   This will *not* be pretty. you'd be looking at things along the lines of breaking there nose, useing blunt trauma to reshape the skull ect., you'll need an extreme consequence.                   
 
New fingerprints  Easiest to simply remove them entirely via fire.               
 
New hair You could probably cause it to grow more or less, or make it white, anything more is verry probably a law violation.                     

Permanent Alterations
12 complexity to go from the standard thaumaturgical starting point of a day to a mortal lifetime. So thats your minimum. You will need another 30 to ensure it works, as all of these require extensive reworking of a persons body and thus invoke the section in your world that says that altering another person is the same thing as killing and remaking them.

Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: MijRai on March 05, 2011, 09:03:54 PM
I would say it is only Lawbreaker if the patient is unwilling. If they go up and say 'Change my face', they volunteered for it. Now, all of the procedures would hurt, so the guy better know a good sleep spell to knock them out beforehand so that they don't move or mess anything up.

All of those would be completely possible, although the gender-switch would be iffy on efficacy as far as everything but looks go. With magic, you can change most anything with a proper ritual and enough time.

Moriden, you don't have to break their nose or use blunt trauma when you have magic. Part of the spell could make it flexible, then you shape it, then harden it again. Besides, I doubt normal plastic surgery is anywhere near an extreme consequence. Dangerous, sure. But completely possible and I doubt it would cause anything more then a moderate consequence.

Complete fingerprint removal is a waste of time, in many cases. They catch you, match DNA, then take fingerprints of your scars which do the exact same thing as a fingerprint. It is all but impossible to smooth out those lines via mundane means. Now, a magic user could... But fingerprints are there because they help your grip, so doing so would be a bit of a pain when you are holding things later.
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: tordon on March 05, 2011, 10:16:20 PM
Perhaps you could use a ritual to change someone fingerprints to match someone else's, using some sort of link?  That way, the fingerprints could incriminate someone else rather than the person.
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: Moriden on March 05, 2011, 11:13:48 PM
Quote
Moriden, you don't have to break their nose or use blunt trauma when you have magic. Part of the spell could make it flexible, then you shape it, then harden it again. Besides, I doubt normal plastic surgery is anywhere near an extreme consequence. Dangerous, sure. But completely possible and I doubt it would cause anything more then a moderate consequence.

Doing it in such a way as to not make it lawbreaker is the problem. go reread the section on altering people in your world.
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: MijRai on March 06, 2011, 12:20:25 AM
Doing it in such a way as to not make it lawbreaker is the problem. go reread the section on altering people in your world.

It is easy. Read the first two lines I said. If they volunteer for it, make it their choice, then it isn't a Lawbreaker.
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: Moriden on March 06, 2011, 12:22:49 AM
Quote
It is easy. Read the first two lines I said. If they volunteer for it, make it their choice, then it isn't a Lawbreaker.

Where exactly does it state in the book or novels that the person being willing makes it non lawbreaker?
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: mithrandirthewhite on March 06, 2011, 12:46:13 AM
I dont play DFPG, but im pretty sure LTW didnt break any Laws in TC
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: Moriden on March 06, 2011, 12:51:06 AM
Quote
I dont play DFPG, but im pretty sure LTW didnt break any Laws in TC

Nor did he alter anyone else. changing yourself is okay, changing someone else, even for "healing" is not. the books pretty clear on that
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: mithrandirthewhite on March 06, 2011, 12:55:43 AM
including healing? ??? You'll need to clarify that for me.  And I think that the laws are against changing someone against their will since itinvolves you crushing their will to get them to become what you wish.
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: MijRai on March 06, 2011, 01:02:11 AM
Where exactly does it state in the book or novels that the person being willing makes it non lawbreaker?

The whole 'free will' thing. You can talk to the willing dead (ectomancy) but not make them do anything (necromancy). You can't break into their minds (Molly, for example), but you can go in and look if given permission Turn Coat Spoilers
(click to show/hide)
.

Furthermore, this isn't turning them into a newt, and destroying their minds with the shock and instant brain-size change. This is changing their appearance. While it is an important part of your self-image, it doesn't change your body in those importantly dangerous ways that full Transformation would.
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: Sanctaphrax on March 06, 2011, 01:06:52 AM
I think that magical plastic surgery could go pretty far without breaking any laws. But if you alter the brain or the important hormones of the body, it's probably Lawbreaking regardless of consent.

Which gives me a character idea: a warlock who changed the genders of some transsexuals and is now being hunted be a rather zealous Warden. He thinks that he was helping them, and he has a good case to back that up. But the gender-change has had a demonstrable effect on the minds (and maybe souls) of his "victims", so the Warden is actually acting within his duties.
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: Moriden on March 06, 2011, 01:21:57 AM
Quote
Transformation
and Disruption
Thaumaturgy that fundamentally, lastingly
changes the target
—whether it’s the target’s
body, mind, emotions, or even luck—falls into
the category of transformation and disruption.
Often, this is dark stuff—curses, mind control,
destructive shapeshifting, and death magic.
Of all the methods available through thaumaturgy,
these are the ones most prone to run afoul
of the Laws of Magic (page 232). Regardless of
what the spell changes, this is a violent act to the
target: people and things are very good at being
what they are, and this sort of magic forces them
to be what they aren’t.

As such, these forms of thaumaturgy rely on
the same mechanical principle—most of them
inflict consequences or temporary aspects on a
target
. Entropic curses inflict aspects that reflect
bad luck and other kinds of misfortune. Emotion
magic inflicts aspects related to emotional states
(lust, anger, fear, etc.) that the victim can fall
prey to. Mind control is just that—the aspect,
when compelled, forces the victim to act in a
certain way. In rarer cases, a curse might actually
be fully transformative, changing the shape
or nature of a being permanently.

Because these forms of thaumaturgy function
via consequences, a wizard needs to make
sure that the spell is complex enough to overcome
any resistance the target might be able to
raise (defense rolls, stress tracks, etc.), as well as
add enough shifts for the desired level of consequence
(0 for a temporary aspect, 2 for mild,
4 for moderate, 6 for severe, 8 for extreme).
Anything that is fully transformative must be
powerful enough to achieve a “taken out” result
on the target, which can be extremely complex
(see “Contests and Conflicts,” page 265)—which
isn’t to say there aren’t sorcerers out there practicing
that kind of black magic. Sadly, there
are plenty.


Quote
The whole 'free will' thing. You can talk to the willing dead (ectomancy) but not make them do anything (necromancy). You can't break into their minds (Molly, for example), but you can go in and look if given permission Turn Coat Spoilers (Gatekeeper and Listens to the Wind in Turn Coat).
Ectomancy is not talking to the "willing" dead its talking to the impressions left behind, there not actually souls. harrys pretty clear on that.

Quote
Furthermore, this isn't turning them into a newt, and destroying their minds with the shock and instant brain-size change. This is changing their appearance. While it is an important part of your self-image, it doesn't change your body in those importantly dangerous ways that full Transformation would.


Doesn't matter if its turning them into a newt or altering them so that they are an inch taller. both are fundamental changes to what *they are* you cant change someone in such a maner without it affecting them. To use your example of molly, even *just looking* into someones mind is a violation of the relevant law regardless of if you alter them in anyway.


Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: mithrandirthewhite on March 06, 2011, 01:26:59 AM
then what about the Merlin's sending in Turn Coat?
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: Moriden on March 06, 2011, 01:51:16 AM
Quote
then what about the Merlin's sending in Turn Coat?

Projecting is not the same thing as looking, or changing. Admittedly its a silly distinction but im not the one who made the rules.
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: mithrandirthewhite on March 06, 2011, 02:06:20 AM
its still the invasion of the mind though.  Unless Harry signed a contract when he signed up to the WC saying that he would let the Merlin enter his head anytime the merlin wished.
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: Moriden on March 06, 2011, 02:15:57 AM
Quote
its still the invasion of the mind though.  Unless Harry signed a contract when he signed up to the WC saying that he would let the Merlin enter his head anytime the merlin wished.

I would like to agree with you. i would also like to say that simply looking in someones mind shouldn't affect them in any way. Doesn't mean thats how it works in Mister Bucther's world
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: Lanodantheon on March 06, 2011, 05:58:37 AM
I personally go with the "changing the nature" of someone route. Magical Plastic surgery would only be a Law Breaker if they changed the Nature of that person. Willingness only matters if you are employing a talisman or some similiar object, since using such things involve exercising one's free will.

Think about like this, you look yourself in the mirror everyday and you recognize that image. A lot of people exercise, use makeup, costumes and what not to alter their image but when you look in the mirror, you still recognize the reflection as you. Giving yourself new hair, nails, skin tone, teeth, etc wouldn't do it. Changing those things has become acceptable to modern folks. People's self-image changes when they get braces. It would break the Law when the person changed looked in the mirror and no longer recognized the face in the mirror. That's the point when you've changed someone's nature. If you used magic to simulate the effect of braces in minutes, that wouldn't do it. What would would be when changing that person's smile made him/her no longer recognizable, like an idealized smile, the stuff of every toothpaste commercial when originally you had teeth with dime sized gaps between them.

But the magical dentistry thing is a bit of an extreme case. Warlock by dentistry? not my idea of a Warlock.

Unless the the Black Magic Dentist gave the guy a shark-grin, then that's definitely a Law Breaker.
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: sinker on March 06, 2011, 08:01:54 AM
Nor did he alter anyone else. changing yourself is okay, changing someone else, even for "healing" is not. the books pretty clear on that

I'm pretty sure that there's magic healing twice in the novels and no one picks up Lawbreaker. Once by a non-white council wizard, so that doesn't prove anything, however they repeatedly mention that Listens-to-wind is a healer, and I believe he heals someone at least once.
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: Steppenwolf on March 06, 2011, 08:16:14 AM
Well if healing is meant to just speeding up the natural process of recovery I see no Lawbreaking.
Title: Re: Magical Plastic Surgery: How Far Can You Go? (Before You Hit The Second Law)
Post by: Richard_Chilton on March 06, 2011, 09:01:30 PM
There's a way around the law breaker bit - don't make it permanent.  And it could also result in a great revenue stream.
"Now you have that model's body that you always wanted - for now.  And you better  start earning some money by modeling because that body only lasts a week.  Then I have to use more reagents and those things are expensive.   The cost? Shall we say a grand a week or 5% of your model income - which ever is higher? No, it's not fair, but I have to eat too."

That's not a nice idea - in fact it's the sort of thing a villain would do - but technically it doesn't break any magical laws.  Speaking of villains, I can picture a modeling agency where the guy on top takes average women and turns them into models in exchange for 90% of the fees.  They get to look beautiful and he gets the money... Win/win.

Edit: Okay, I'm now mostly through writing up an evil spell caster who runs a local modelling agency and uses Transformation and Disruption maneuvers to make average women look like models.

Richard