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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: bitterpill on March 02, 2011, 08:50:21 PM
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I was thinking how big would a sword have to be to get weapons rating 4, Tecnically weapons 4 is for weapons which have the effectiveness of grenedes and above but would Guts Sword from Beserker (Sword as long as a tall person and as fat as a slim male) count as weapon 4 considering its overwhelming size.
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I would say that guts' sword would do more than simply weapon 4. If weapon 4 is a simple grenade, and a rocket launcher would be something like weapon 5 or 6. then i would put a sword of guts size (which would require inhuman strength to even use) around 5 or 6.
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It could be a dagger.
Weapon Rating simply measure how effective a weapon is at inflicting damage on living beings. (And possibly objects.) A supernaturally sharp dagger that cuts through flesh as if it is water would be just as damaging (if not more so) than being hit by a caber.
Now, if we are discussing normal weapons, it would be hard for even a zweihander to exceed Weapon:3. Weapon damage hasn't really incressed all that much, because people haven't become any tougher. A weapon:2 is quite effective at killing single targets. Modern weaponry (guns) just lets you kill more people faster and at a greater range.
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If you are maintaining any verisimilitude with real life, such a large sword would be less effective not more. If not, just assign the damage rating your group agrees on regardless of size.
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I am trying to figure out the maximum melee damage, so with mythic strength (real life and mythic strength don't like each other) a ridiculously large sword could be weilded like a butter knife it may weigh 150kgs but you can easily lift and throw several tonnes. I am under no delusions that a sword the size of person could be weilded by a person in real life.
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The only Weapon 4 sword (or other melee weapon) I would allow is a sword built like a large koloss blade in the Mistborn trilogy. Thick, big, and heavy.Too heavy for a normal person to use. Well, maybe a weapon 4 melee weapon if it were like a Super-Sledge from the Fallout universe as well, although that would most likely be an enchanted item like Harry's force rings put into a hammer.
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A car is weapon 5. So if you can swing a sword with the mass of a car effectively then you have a weapon 5 sword.
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A car is weapon 5. So if you can swing a sword with the mass of a car effectively then you have a weapon 5 sword.
you mean 'swing a sword with the FORCE of a car'
if you can swing it faster, it can be lighter
since it's a heck of a lot sharper, it can be both lighter and slower (focusing less force over a vastly smaller area)
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What do people recon the max weapon rating of a melee weapon is when you have a lifting capacity of + 17 (+12 mythic strength +5 skill)? I recon it must be between 4-6 for silly oversized weapons.
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Again, anything you want for a weapon rating.
Someone with extreme levels of Strength wouldn't generally NEED a weapon...although I can see carrying one if it's part of their theme (or to defeat a Catch).
And if your group is requiring such weapons because of what you're dealing with...That's a lot higher power than I'd be comfortable with in a campaign.
I'd say any weapon damage should top out at +8. (Raw weapon rating, that is.)
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Its more the appeal of weilding a sword the size of a person and trying to one hit things with full concequences.
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I play Exalted(tm) for that... ;)
But hey, if everyone's having fun, it's all good. But I'd try to be the Scotsman from Samurai Jack wielding a Caber in that game...
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Getting Obscene weapon ratings isn't actually all that hard.
Mythic Strength + Item of Power One Handed Sword (Weapon 3) + True Strike + Berserk + Off Hand Training = 4dF+7 Weapon 11.
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What's Beserk ?
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The weapon bonus from 'magical' strength is written into the power. For example, Mythical Strength is +6 to damage. Mechanically, it doesn't matter whether you're picking up a telephone pole and swinging it or using a metal baseball bat...both should end up at Weapon:8. There is a significant difference to the story, one is a ponderous swing of a heavy object and the other is a fast smashing blow. But mechanically, both are clubs with a +6.
Remember, FATE in general and DFRPG in particular don't simulate real life - they build narratives / stories.
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Berserk is a stunt. Gard has it in OW, so does the Lycanthrope Berserker on the Generic NPC thread.
I'm inclined to agree with UmbraLux about the way to approach this, but I am willing to stretch things up until about weapon 4. That's what I gave my Mythically Strong PC for throwing a car.
By the way Koffeykid, your example is actually all that hard. It involves a Superb skill, 7 refresh after discounts, a somewhat specialized situation, some quasi-legit stunt stacking, a -1 penalty to defence, and an inability to retreat. It isn't easy.
And on another note, I've been thinking lately about translating stuff from Exalted into DFRPG. It seems to be more or less impossible.
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I don't think stacking true strike and an accuracy + stunt is against the rules because one raises the skill whilst the other just raises the accuracy in a certain situation.
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Well, that's not what I was talking about.
I meant stacking +1 stress from Berserk and +2 stress from Off Hand Weapon Training. Although depending on the weapon rating of the second weapon, Koffeykid may actually not have been stacking them. It's a little hard to tell.
Incidentally, I would definitely allow those stunts to stack. But I felt that I should mention it, since I was listing everything that I could think of.
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So if I manage to drop a car on someone it should just be +2 damage?
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its
A Weapon 3 IoP + 1 (Off Hand Training with a Weapon 2) + 6 (Mythic Strength) + 1 (Berserk) = Weapon: 11 Rating.
Accuracy is 5 (Weapon Skill) + 1 (True Strike, Its a Power so it will stack with Stunts) + 1 (Berserk) = 7
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So if I manage to drop a car on someone it should just be +2 damage?
Throwing a Car: If you are strong enough to lift and throw a car (14-15 ranks of effective Might depending on the size of the car), then I might consider it a Weapon:5, which is the normal damage of a car in motion. I can be talked out of it, of course, but it seems to be within the rules.
Dropping a Car:If you only have 8-9 effective ranks in Might, your GM could allow you to make a Might-based Maneuver regarding the car, and then you free-tag that Aspect on a followup Weapons roll, which would be as you say, +2. You would have to attack something in the same Zone.
See "Lifting" in YS 321 for additional rules about Might/Lifting ratios and what you can do with it besides. You may be able to carry that car a short distance before dropping it if you have 10-13 ranks of Might.
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Dropping a Car:If you only have 8-9 effective ranks in Might, your GM could allow you to make a Might-based Maneuver regarding the car, and then you free-tag that Aspect on a followup Weapons roll, which would be as you say, +2. You would have to attack something in the same Zone.
How far is it being dropped?
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How far is it being dropped?
Depends how tall the lifter is. We don't need to get terribly scientific about this, of course.
However, if you are angling to get more damage by tossing a car from a great height ONTO someone, the rules already address trying to use gravity as a damage shortcut in the Falling rules (YS319):
"The falling rules are not an invitation for super-strong characters and spellcasters to start picking people up and tossing them to a great height, only to fall down and take egregious falling damage. That’s an attack, and the stress dealt by any falling component is already included in the stress of the attack. If your force-bolt “uppercuts” a guy so he flies up and then falls back down with a crunch of bone, the damage dealt by the attack itself accounts for the “fall back down” part—essentially, in this case, falling is a special effect, a detail of color."
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Depends how tall the lifter is. We don't need to get terribly scientific about this, of course.
However, if you are angling to get more damage by tossing a car from a great height ONTO someone, the rules already address trying to use gravity as a damage shortcut in the Falling rules (YS319):
"The falling rules are not an invitation for super-strong characters and spellcasters to start picking people up and tossing them to a great height, only to fall down and take egregious falling damage. That’s an attack, and the stress dealt by any falling component is already included in the stress of the attack. If your force-bolt “uppercuts” a guy so he flies up and then falls back down with a crunch of bone, the damage dealt by the attack itself accounts for the “fall back down” part—essentially, in this case, falling is a special effect, a detail of color."
The rules address throwing the TARGET as a shortcut to damage
They do NOT address what you're suggesting: essentially lowering the damage because the weapon isn't travelling fast enough, ie. falling far enough
So...How about dropping it off the roof of a 5-story parking complex? Does it get its full damage rating then?
What about dropping it out of the back of a cargo plane at several thousand feet? Does it get its full damage rating then?
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Further information - YS 326: "Impact Damage: At some point, you may want to have one character try to hit another character with a car or other speeding object. This can be considered an attack using Weapon:5(!) for the car. Generally, most massive objects like that should be about Weapon:4 or Weapon:5, like explosives—only the hardiest of supernatural creatures should be able to shrug them off."
So...How about dropping it off the roof of a 5-story parking complex? Does it get its full damage rating then?
What about dropping it out of the back of a cargo plane at several thousand feet? Does it get its full damage rating then?
Well, sure, but in those cases, how are you managing to aim where it falls? Edit: by which I mean "aim at a target creature who might be inclined to get out of the way."
If a character has enough Might to use an object as a Thrown Weapon, it implies that character can make a Weapons roll to place where it goes. In which case I can see it being a Weapon:5 in the situations you propose. But if a character can barely heft a car and drop it, I have no faith that the character can aim it with any reliability, so it is only worth the +2 for tagging it as a Maneuver Aspect.
They do NOT address what you're suggesting: essentially lowering the damage because the weapon isn't travelling fast enough, ie. falling far enough
I consider this an acceptable extension of the spirit of the Falling rules.
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narrated as waiting for the target to be more or less 'in the shadow' of the item to be dropped (the attacker can probably manage to 'nudge' the object a bit off a pure vertical trajectory, and will likely have to 'lead' the target if they're moving around meaningfully), but mechanically, that's likely just a situational bonus to the defense roll or a penalty to the attack roll
it's NOT a penalty to the weapon rating should the object manage to connect
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narrated as waiting for the target to be more or less 'in the shadow' of the item to be dropped (the attacker can probably manage to 'nudge' the object a bit off a pure vertical trajectory, and will likely have to 'lead' the target if they're moving around meaningfully), but mechanically, that's likely just a situational bonus to the defense roll or a penalty to the attack roll
it's NOT a penalty to the weapon rating should the object manage to connect
"In the shadow"? You are aware the sun has this habit of moving across the sky during the day, right? Gravity and momentum don't follow shadows.
Taking "in the shadow" figuratively (as I believe you meant it), I get what what you are saying, but I contend that executing such a drop accurately is a lot easier to say than it is to do. Pilots require a great deal of training to do that reliably, and they are just hitting a button. A character who is trying to push a car out of a plane (without the strength to physically heave it and throw it) is straining against the object, pushing, heaving, swaying, and generally hefting it about without a lot of finesse.
But you can play it however you like in your game. I'm satisfied with my interpretation of the rules at this time.
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"In the shadow"? You are aware the sun has this habit of moving across the sky during the day, right? Gravity and momentum don't follow shadows.
Taking "in the shadow" figuratively (as I believe you meant it),
thus the quotes, yes
I get what what you are saying, but I contend that executing such a drop accurately is a lot easier to say than it is to do. Pilots require a great deal of training to do that reliably, and they are just hitting a button. A character who is trying to push a car out of a plane (without the strength to physically heave it and throw it) is straining against the object, pushing, heaving, swaying, and generally hefting it about without a lot of finesse.
But you can play it however you like in your game. I'm satisfied with my interpretation of the rules at this time.
Difficulty in hitting the target should be represented as difficulty in hitting the target, not in the magnitude of effect produced on success
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I could see a chainsaw as qualifying as a w:4 sword. It would likely be very "Unwieldy" though.
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And subject to the tag, "out of gas". (Or 'low on gas', if the character is trapped in time and surrounded by evil...)
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So to get to weapons 4-5 you need a sword the size of a person which also happens to be sharp. I would max out melee base damage at 5 because anything above a car is silly even for someone with mythic strength.
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So to get to weapons 4-5 you need a sword the size of a person which also happens to be sharp. I would max out melee base damage at 5 because anything above a car is silly even for someone with mythic strength.
I'd say that's reasonable unless you're talking about things that are substantially larger than human sized. For creatures with Hulking Size (which goes up to house size) swinging equally huge weapons I'd go up as far as seems appropriate. If a giant smacks you with his 15' battle axe I'd say Weapon:6 is entirely appropriate.
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I'd say that's reasonable unless you're talking about things that are substantially larger than human sized. For creatures with Hulking Size (which goes up to house size) swinging equally huge weapons I'd go up as far as seems appropriate. If a giant smacks you with his 15' battle axe I'd say Weapon:6 is entirely appropriate.
So long as the material it's constructed from is sufficient to maintain its form under the stress of such an impact (iron and steel aren't going to do the job).
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So long as the material it's constructed from is sufficient to maintain its form under the stress of such an impact (iron and steel aren't going to do the job).
Eh, we're talking about mystical creatures here. If the giant is one of the fae I'd just assume that whatever inherent magic allows it to grow to such huge size without having its shins explode the first time it takes a running step allows it to forge a broad sword that can smash into crap without exploding into shrapnel.
Materials science has no place in the Nevernever.
But if we're talking about a weapon made with human technology? Absolutely.
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Of course, ectoplasm is not subject to natural laws.
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Neither are items of power with the indestructible tag.
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Warden Swords count as weapon 3, despite the fact that swords are Weapon 2; due their great craftsmanship. So it may depend on ‘what its made of’ and ‘who made it’, a person with Craft 5+ could make weapons that are +1 their normal rating…
…and by that logic a person with Legendary craftsmanship could make a sword that’s Weapon: 6 by default. :-\
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If I really wanted to just add two to the weapons rating of a sword I would make it an item of power and give it a custom power like
[-1] Monofilament Blade: Add +2 to the weapons rating and ignore up to +2 armour.
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If I really wanted to just add two to the weapons rating of a sword I would make it an item of power and give it a custom power like
[-1] Monofilament Blade: Add +2 to the weapons rating and ignore up to +2 armour.
That's after discount, right?
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It is hard to get the power level right for powers because they seem to very a lot do you think a -1 for +2 damage, -1 for -2 armour is appropriate, if so the full blade would also have to ahve true strike to equal -1.