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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: EdgeOfDreams on February 28, 2011, 11:02:22 PM
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I've been thinking about physical combat and how various offensive options stack up when compared to each other.
Guns:
-Range
-Bonus stress is 1 to 4 depending on choice of gun
-Circumstantial skill and damage boosts available from stunts.
-Various ammunition types can help with satisfying catches
-Can be the best damage output without spending refresh
Weapons:
-Limited range with thrown weapons
-Bonus stress is 1 to 3 depending on choice of weapon
-Circumstantial skill and damage boosts available from stunts
-Good synergy with Strength powers for extra damage
-Various types of weapons can satisfy some catches
-Can be used for melee defense
Fists:
-No range
-No bonus stress without stunts or powers
-Circumstantial skill and damage boosts available from stunts
-Good synergy with Strength powers
-Your 'weapon' can't be taken away
-Can be used for melee defense
-Difficult to justify satisfying certain catches (e.g. Cold Iron for Fae)
Evocation:
-Good range
-Bonus stress can easily exceed 4
-Limited use per scene based on mental stress
-Bonuses from Focus items and specializations can circumvent the normal skill cap
-Costs at least 2 refresh to start, more if you want to optimize it
Looking over all these pros and cons, it seems to me that Fists really stands out as the worst option for your physical offense. Yes, there are some decent stunts that can close the gap a bit, but comparing two characters who have spent the same amount of refresh pumping their offensive capabilities, the Fists guy will usually be dealing less stress per hit without any of the range and other inherent advantages of the other three options.
Have I missed any notable pros and cons in my lists here? Has anyone had any good experiences that shed light on whether Fists lags behind the other skills?
If Fists really is the worst physical combat option, what can be done to re-balance it? In your opinion, should it even be re-balanced?
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I'd leave it alone. Or play a Monk in D&D.
Remember also there is the Armed Arts stunt which lets you use any Melee Weapons that happen to fit into the theme of your particular Fists style. Granted, you sort of covered that in your enumeration of the options for Fists, and a player is still spending a Stunt on it, but it is still worth noting.
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What? Fists are less deadly than weapons?
Yeah... that's kinda why we as a species developed weapons.
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Well I suppose you could do an upgrade power to claws to make them super-sharp so they do 4 damage rather than 2 but then that kind of blurs the line between weapons and fists anyway. Or you could do the fallout classic the ballistic fist a shotgun attached to your fist.
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Fists tends to be more useful for the non-vanilla critters out there that can pick up things like Claws (possibly with the addition of Venomous)
After all, if bare hands and feet were as good for combat as a high-powered assault rifle, humans wouldn't have gone to all the trouble to invent the damnable things
a few notes on the details of your assessment, though:
"'brass' knuckles" can be easily argued as a reasonable tool to use with the Fists skill to gain a weapon:1 attack as well as the potential to satisfy catches
it's the most easily justifiable skill with which to perform a maneuver to switch to Might for a grapple
evocation really isn't in the same ballpark
using it forces the conflict into rocket tag, as your self-inflicted stress hastens your own defeat unless you pop the opponent first
it requires multiple skills at high levels to use effectively
it comes with the risk of backlash and fallout
Laws of Magic
BUT: can easily be used to justify far more diverse effects (diverse maneuvers, exchange-spanning blocks and even armour without additional actions, better spray attack options)
can't be disarmed
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"'brass' knuckles" can be easily argued as a reasonable tool to use with the Fists skill to gain a weapon:1 attack as well as the potential to satisfy catches
True. I've considered allowing brass knuckles to be wielded with the Fists skill in games I run. I've also thought about giving Fists the ability to deal 1 stress on a tie, only if the attacker does not have any other damage bonuses. The possibility of tying with the opponents defense roll (which counts as a hit for all other attack skills) and still dealing zero stress bugs me.
it's the most easily justifiable skill with which to perform a maneuver to switch to Might for a grapple
That's a good point, and I would expect Fists (combined with Might) to be the preferred skill of "wrestler" type characters.
evocation really isn't in the same ballpark
Oh, I realize that. I was mostly including Evocation for completeness, along with the note that it's the only option which requires spending refresh to even use in the first place.
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I've considered allowing brass knuckles to be wielded with the Fists skill in games I run.
I allow that in my games.
The possibility of tying with the opponents defense roll (which counts as a hit for all other attack skills) and still dealing zero stress bugs me.
Billy and Harry have that same discussion, actually, and Billy suggests that such a roll place an Aspect as if it had been a Maneuver instead of an Attack.
YS 200:
Harry: "What if the attack connects, but inflicts no stress? It seems like something should happen when a hit connects, even if it doesn’t do damage."
Billy: "You could treat it as a maneuver, dropping a temporary aspect on the defender. Look at you, getting all rulesy. It makes me proud!"
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Billy and Harry have that same discussion, actually, and Billy suggests that such a roll place an Aspect as if it had been a Maneuver instead of an Attack.
YS 200:
Harry: "What if the attack connects, but inflicts no stress? It seems like something should happen when a hit connects, even if it doesn’t do damage."
Billy: "You could treat it as a maneuver, dropping a temporary aspect on the defender. Look at you, getting all rulesy. It makes me proud!"
Interesting. I must have missed that bit, but I like it.
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Personally, I like the current balance. It makes perfect sense to me that unarmed combat, which is always possible, would be slightly weaker than armed combat or magic.
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Some Pros to Fists:
Bringing a gun or a knife to a fist fight is generally frowned upon. Also, if you'd prefer not to kill everyone you happen to get into a fight with, Fists is probably the way to go. It's true that Weapons and Guns are better for killing people/things, but not all fights are to the death. And it's much easier to accidentally kill someone with a weapon than your hands (not that it's impossible to beat someone to death, just less likely than putting large holes in their organs).
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Some Pros to Fists:
Bringing a gun or a knife to a fist fight is generally frowned upon. Also, if you'd prefer not to kill everyone you happen to get into a fight with, Fists is probably the way to go. It's true that Weapons and Guns are better for killing people/things, but not all fights are to the death. And it's much easier to accidentally kill someone with a weapon than your hands (not that it's impossible to beat someone to death, just less likely than putting large holes in their organs).
'rubber' bullets, tasers, maces, hammers, clubs, saps, etc.
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'rubber' bullets, tasers, maces, hammers, clubs, saps, etc.
All of those things make it more likely that you'll accidentally kill the target than punching them. Rubber bullets can be fatal if they hit a soft spot. Tasers can induce heart attacks. Maces, hammers, and clubs are all great ways to kill people, and suggesting them as a non-deadly attack vector suggests to me that you've never actually picked up any of those things. Saps can cause permanent brain damage.
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'rubber' bullets, tasers, maces, hammers, clubs, saps, etc.
It's true that there are non-lethal guns/weapons. Though I'd suggest that all of those are *more* lethal than a punch, with some reaching dangerously lethal levels. (Maces and Hammers?) The point I was attempting to make is that a Weapon or Gun escalates the situation (even a taser or a sap). A fist fight *can* be a lethal affair, but once you pull out a sword or a gun, you're saying you're willing to put the other person down. Sometimes this is what you want. There are other times where you don't want the situation to get that out of control.
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It's true that there are non-lethal guns/weapons. Though I'd suggest that all of those are *more* lethal than a punch, with some reaching dangerously lethal levels. (Maces and Hammers?) The point I was attempting to make is that a Weapon or Gun escalates the situation (even a taser or a sap). A fist fight *can* be a lethal affair, but once you pull out a sword or a gun, you're saying you're willing to put the other person down. Sometimes this is what you want. There are other times where you don't want the situation to get that out of control.
I think that makes a great statement about the plot-level differences between the skills. A bar brawl gets a hell of a lot more serious the moment someone pulls a knife or gun. Fisticuffs are also a lot less likely to get you jumped on by the cops.
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Not trying to suggest that that was a list of NON-lethal options, just LESS-lethal. If you know what you're doing, a fist or foot can be quite definitively lethal.
ie. there are options for Guns and Weapons short of things that will 'put large holes in their organs' in routine use
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I wish i could have "liked" the first two responses in this thread.
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Yes, game-mechanics wise, there is very little to recommend fists over guns or weapons. You can't accidentally kill somebody in DFRPG, fists flat out do less damage than weapons, and weapons can grant special aspects etc.
But story wise, using the Fists skill can make all sorts of sense. First, its one of the few combat skills that "civilians" might train to high levels. And as mentioned, bringing a weapon with you is often considered rude, or can get you in trouble with the cops. Also, you don't always want a weapon in your hands during a fight; fists leaves your hands free for anything you like (such as grappling, taking the enemies weapon away, picking up the McGuffin, etc).
Even mechanics-wise, fists aren't so bad; you don't hit any less often, and only do a bit less stress with each hit. If you have some maneuvers to tag, you can still stack up quite a hit. And since you often have to draw on the first attack (-1 supplemental action) to use a weapon, which might cause you to miss, the gap is smaller than it looks. As long as you have a strong defense and don't let maneuvers against you pile up, you can wear the enemy down; your fights just last a bit longer than they would if you used a weapon. And story wise, that can be a good thing!
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If you are looking at game balance, there are some things that can shift the balance point.
If guns and weapons become rarer and/or more restricted, Fists become much more attractive as an offensive option. However, it can also follow that if guns and weapons become harder to lay your hands on, then the characters that have magical strength and/or claws have a greater advantage since there isn't much mundane mortals can do to try to equalise the imbalance.
This is one thing I have considered for game set in places where gun laws and other weapon laws are highly restrictive.
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Even mechanics-wise, fists aren't so bad; you don't hit any less often, and only do a bit less stress with each hit.
I would disagree somewhat, at least in the groups I've played with. The difference between even 2 extra damage on each hit and 0 is substantial, especially when you consider that tied hits do nothing to wear down your opponent if you don't have a damage bonus. Thus, players without a damage bonus have to beat an opponent's defense by at least 1 instead of tying in order to make progress in a fight. Against enemies with Armor it gets worse: a weapons user can tie against an Armor:1 or even 2 foe and still maybe wear him down a little, while a fists user with no damage bonus has to win the roll by at least 2 or 3, which is pretty long odds.
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I think it's a matter of situations.
If you are to stubborn to Attack when you are reasonably sure that you cannot do any real harm it's your own fault if you are not useful at all in the fight
Maneuver and Block!!!
Distract that bad guy so you sniper friend can open a crater in his head.
Protect the wizard while he set all the scene on fire.
Then, when the bad guys have captured you all and stripped of your possessions let them taste your punches.
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I would disagree somewhat, at least in the groups I've played with. The difference between even 2 extra damage on each hit and 0 is substantial, especially when you consider that tied hits do nothing to wear down your opponent if you don't have a damage bonus.
Fair enough; the fisty character I play is probably not typical. He's generally hitting with fists 5, inhuman strength, and some aspects (maneuvers set up by friends, inflicted consequences) and a fate point (tagging personal aspects). And yeah, given the same refresh cost / skill points, he could be nastier with a weapon; I still think (or maybe hope) its enough.
If the problem is that you need to bypass a catch, wrapping your fists in silver / cold iron chains (or holy beads, or whatever) can do the trick. I punched a red court vamp with a vial or holy water held between my knuckles; was only good for a shot or two, but that is all it took.
I'm not saying it is "as good". I'm saying its an option you can live with, if you like it for other reasons and base a build on it.
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Fists have some advantages over other weapons.
Defense:
You can't defend with guns at all.
Weapons can defend against weapons and fists.
Fists can normally only defend against fists, but with one talent they can defend against anything athletics can. Pretty nice (no need to worry about athletics for defense).
Offensively they aren't necessarily that great, but you can buff them in three ways.
The cheap way is brass knuckles.
A more expensive way is the talent that lets you pick a few weapons that use fists.
An even more expensive way is Claws, but this is pretty nice (and you can grab Human Guise or the like to hide those claws for free).
So with a little investment, fists can cover a LOT of ground so you don't need to worry much about other skills and you can also always use them even if disarmed.
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There are also roleplaying effects, as Harry points out in the books you can be arrested for simply having a concealed weapon with out a permit.
In uk based games (where I am) you don't even have the option of getting a permit. Even if you have a weapons licence the gun has to be kept at a range and access is limited. I have personally witnessed Armed response officers turning out for a BB guns and there was a case a few years ago when they shot a guy weilding a katana in a city street. Those guys tend not to be interested in sitting down for a chat and a cup of tea with some one holding a 'dangerous weapon'.
There are ways of redressing the balance outside of the actual combat if you want to dissuade your players from wandering around like armed thugs.
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Fists can also be a very viable build if you take the right stunts. They do take a bit more refresh/Aspect juggling to get right, but I played a character who was keeping right up with his gunslinger partner in our Dresden game, hitting for seven to nine shifts of damage every time he swung a punch. It's true that armor or range can render a Fists monster useless, but that's why you have the other characters :) And besides, there's nothing like rolling and your GM telling you, "You feel something give way under your fist and his head snaps around with a sickening crack." Unless it's doing it three times in a row ;D
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YOU ARE SO SMALL! IS FUNNY TO ME!
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In uk based games (where I am) you don't even have the option of getting a permit. Even if you have a weapons licence the gun has to be kept at a range and access is limited. I have personally witnessed Armed response officers turning out for a BB guns and there was a case a few years ago when they shot a guy weilding a katana in a city street. Those guys tend not to be interested in sitting down for a chat and a cup of tea with some one holding a 'dangerous weapon'.
Heh, you should try it where I live. UK police response is pretty tame compared to the police where I come from. I see groups of police in tac vests and SMGs backed by riot vehicles patrolling city streets every weekend afternoon. You should have seen what happened when a terrorist managed to escape custody a few years back.
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Heh, you should try it where I live. UK police response is pretty tame compared to the police where I come from. I see groups of police in tac vests and SMGs backed by riot vehicles patrolling city streets every weekend afternoon. You should have seen what happened when a terrorist managed to escape custody a few years back.
I love it when you get actual examples of escalation, the American Police have to be better armed because any nut can have a lethal weapon in America.
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I love it when you get actual examples of escalation, the American Police have to be better armed because any nut can have a lethal weapon in America.
Huh? What does American police have to do with my example?
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Sorry I assumed you were from the US and so I could make a comment about gun control, consider my comment redacted.
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Sorry I assumed you were from the US and so I could make a comment about gun control, consider my comment redacted.
My country has tighter gun control than the UK.
Which often makes me wonder if DFRPG and the Dresdenverse in general are meant to be set in areas where the civilian mortals are unlikely to meaningfully resist supernatural monsters.
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Yes, game-mechanics wise, there is very little to recommend fists over guns or weapons. You can't accidentally kill somebody in DFRPG, fists flat out do less damage than weapons, and weapons can grant special aspects etc.
A player can't accidentally kill a character with their own character, but your character can certainly accidentally kill someone. If players are consistently having their characters attack others with lethal weapons and never killing any of them (or only killing the ones they want and conveniently not killing the ones they'd prefer not to) then this is "fine", in the sense that the rules allow for it. If everyone at the table feels that this is reasonable, and more importantly fun, then go for it. My guess is that such a game is also less interested in the consequences of escalating a conflict to lethal levels (or possible even the distinction between lethal and non-lethal physical conflicts). If this is the case, then there's very little to argue that Fists isn't an inferior skill. But for the rest of the games out there, Fists does have a "mechanical" purpose.
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Also hate to bring RL into it, but most of the armed crime commited in America is done with guns that are not legally aquired....
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As a note, brass knuckles aren't the only Bonus that can be added to fists, have you considered the merits of a finely crafted pair of Gauntlets? Great on the attack, and can also be used to defend. If the character has any kind of Thaumaturgy then you can enhance them further with magic to aid in offense and defense or even bypassing catches, if you know what you are facing. Sure they can be kind of noticeable but wear a nice duster to cover the majority of them and cover the hand in an over-sized love. Or better go modern and make it out of Kevlar and/or Neptunic http://www.neptunic.com/ (http://www.neptunic.com/) then it won't stand out near as much. fyi the company that makes those suits is working on a new material that is as thin as cloth and works just about as well as chain mail! I think theres a video somewhere on the board I'll have to dig up.
Point being, there are ways to make fists a more viable option.
On another note for "Claws" it doesn't actually have to be a Claw, it could just be exceptionally hard and heavy hands that hurt people more when punching.
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Also hate to bring RL into it, but most of the armed crime commited in America is done with guns that are not legally aquired....
The fact remains that there are good reasons for not carrying weapons IF the G.M. imposes them. For example the PC finally track down the White court vampire they are after to the 'gentleman emporium' he owns and go in loaded for bear, only to have their showdown 'intercepted' by the SWAT team who have been tipped off my an observant bounder because some one messed up their deceit check to conceal their weapons...
After a while the PC's will get a reputation with Law enforcement and find them selves the 'victims' of random stop and search.
So there are ways of redressing the balance if you have a Gun-bunny Player and you want your game to be more cerebral.
After all Dresden is a 'wizard Private eye' not a 'Wizard Gunslinger' so regardless of the realism of the mechanic - that should set the tone of the game.
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Yeah, you can also wear sap gloves (also called knuckle dusters). They would probably be at least Weapon:1, which isn't bad for relatively concealable armaments. Also, given that they usually have plating on the back of the hand they'd probably allow the wearer to defend against Weapons attacks.
As has been pointed out though, yes, Fists is mechanically behind Weapons, Guns, and Evocation (pretty much in that order) in terms of offensive utility. That is as it should be.
Now, if you have a character who is primarily Fists-based as a GM you could "correct" this imbalance by occasionally playing to the Fists character's strengths. Have a conflict take place in a high-security atmosphere, where firearms and weapons are unavailable. Have a potential contact (perhaps one of the more manly Seelie) challenge the group to a boxing match. Just do something every now and then to make sure that your Fist user(s) has the upper hand and balance is maintained.
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Fists avoid Social combat with law enforcement officials.
Fists are always with you, and can be taken into areas where people are routinely searched or subjected to metal detectors.
Fists can be used to remove weapons wielded by others.
Yes, they aren't as effective at inflicting damage without appropriate Stunts or Powers. This is correct both cinematically and realistically. But they have a flexibility that Weapons or Guns lack. It's much harder to conceal your intent if you arrive at a location bristling with weapons...
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Exactly.
In the game I run, my players know well that I reserve the right to moderate their choices for "Taken Out" depending on how they do it. I will not allow a continued string of non-lethal outcomes from 10 shift fireballs and lightning strikes, sword swings or bursts from an AK-47. Especially against vanilla humans. And this is well within the stated rules and is the job of the GM. DFRPG (and the FATE system as a whole) is a more cooperative game than many RPGs; but it does not mean that the GM has to throw out the consequences for any of their players actions just because the players want to.
As for a need to re-balance Fists... no. There is a reason that we equip soldiers and police officers with firearms. I don't care how many nights a week you train at your dojo, a .22 cal is a much more lethal weapon than your punch or kick. Yea, yea, there is always the fluke events. The guy that gets shot in the head and lives or the guy that died from one punch instantly. But those are statistical outliers and, in game mechanics, are represented by the +4 or -4 die rolls with, probably, fate points being spent. But, if I had to choose between being shot by a .22 cal round or taking a punch from Jet Li or Mike Tyson, I'm taking the punch every single day of the week. And for a good reason.
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Exactly.
In the game I run, my players know well that I reserve the right to moderate their choices for "Taken Out" depending on how they do it. I will not allow a continued string of non-lethal outcomes from 10 shift fireballs and lightning strikes, sword swings or bursts from an AK-47.
Dosen't this just mean they use spirit or air attack against the enemy rather than fire.
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Dosen't this just mean they use spirit or air attack against the enemy rather than fire.
I've seen this mentioned before, but I'm a little unclear how Spirit or Air attacks are any less lethal (unless the characters tend to use less Power when they use these attacks). The Power of the spell determines how lethal it is, not the element. And despite claims to the contrary, beating someone with a heavy object, or pure force attacks, are just as lethal as setting them on fire, cutting, or shooting them. Less force does less damage (like punching someone as opposed to hitting them with a car), but equal force (or in DFRPG mechanics weapon rating or power for spells) does equal damage. But I guess you're less likely to set them on fire.
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Hypnotic Spirit Lights Attack and you can no longer breath attack.
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"I smack him with a Weapon:4 blast of pure force. Being well aware of the potential for this much force to kill him, I hit him off center, on the shoulder, so he's whipped around violently. He's unconscious, probably has whiplash, but alive."
(Harry's force rings are presented as Weapon:4 in the Enchanted Item example, and he's blasted vanilla mortals with them on several occasions. When he mentions it, he usually talks up the "taking care to not hit them lethally" angle. The above example is practically a quote from the beginning of Summer Knight, when he takes out the uzi wielding goon with his ring.)
"I call up a ton of volts but low amps and shock the shit out of him with Weapon:4. He pisses himself, twitches for a few minutes, and collapses in a heap."
For instance.
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Hypnotic Spirit Lights Attack and you can no longer breath attack.
The first one is a Fourth Law violation. The second example is one that could potentially kill.
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I was think more on the physical effects of the lights rather than overt mind control, it is human nature to stare into lights so if you make lights that are very enthraling by say being the apothosess of lights people will stare into them and forget about everything else without direct thought control.
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I was think more on the physical effects of the lights rather than overt mind control, it is human nature to stare into lights so if you make lights that are very enthraling by say being the apothosess of lights people will stare into them and forget about everything else without direct thought control.
That's really more of a manouver to cause distraction than an attack.
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Hypnotic Spirit Lights Attack and you can no longer breath attack.
I'm unfamiliar with the "Hypnotic Spirit Lights Attack" but I assume it's a block on all actions (and therefore not actually an attack)? And by "no longer breath attack" I assume you mean something like Orbius. Both of these effects can be done with other elements (fire is difficult, but not impossible). But the distinction is that you're using the power of the spell to do something other than forcefully attack your opponent. Using blocks and maneuvers to subdue an opponent is certainly a way to keep your attacks less lethal.
"I smack him with a Weapon:4 blast of pure force. Being well aware of the potential for this much force to kill him, I hit him off center, on the shoulder, so he's whipped around violently. He's unconscious, probably has whiplash, but alive."
(Harry's force rings are presented as Weapon:4 in the Enchanted Item example, and he's blasted vanilla mortals with them on several occasions. When he mentions it, he usually talks up the "taking care to not hit them lethally" angle. The above example is practically a quote from the beginning of Summer Knight, when he takes out the uzi wielding goon with his ring.)
"I call up a ton of volts but low amps and shock the shit out of him with Weapon:4. He pisses himself, twitches for a few minutes, and collapses in a heap."
For instance.
I'm unclear how this is an argument against what I've been claiming. I'm not saying that not killing someone with what could be lethal weapons isn't reasonable. You can stab and shoot people without killing them. What I'm saying is that if a character consistently uses lethal forces (even Fists) in a reckless manner and consistently claims that people won't die from this, I'd find this unreasonable. And I'm also saying that Spirit and Air are inherently no less lethal than Fire, Earth or Water elements. You can use them all in controlled ways in order to not kill people (again, Fire is slightly more difficult in some cases), but you can also shoot someone in the shoulder, or attempt to stab someone in a place that won't kill them. It'd be a reasonable result if the player wanted that person to die accidentally anyway, and it'd be reasonable for them to claim that they live. I just don't see how using Spirit or Air in the same way that someone would use "10 shift fireballs and lightning strikes, sword swings or bursts from an AK-47" (to quote Kommisar) would result in anything less lethal.
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Magic is a function of intent. If a player makes an attack in a way that would reasonably lead to unconsciousness rather than death, and clearly states that is the intent of their attack, I would generally allow it...but again, if the PC gets too many shifts, or uses too much power, then there will be other consequences.
Weapons and Guns are another matter. As the song says, 'handguns are made for killing'. It's very difficult to make a non-lethal attack with a device intended to kill people. I'd require Shifts to be used to convert damage to non-lethal, on a 2-1 ratio. (3-1 with Guns.) There's a reason police don't reach for their sidearms in every confrontation.
Fists, on the other hand, are non-lethal. It's possible to beat someone to death with your bare hands, but it takes time and a lot of determination.
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Magic is a function of intent. If a player makes an attack in a way that would reasonably lead to unconsciousness rather than death, and clearly states that is the intent of their attack, I would generally allow it...but again, if the PC gets too many shifts, or uses too much power, then there will be other consequences.
Weapons and Guns are another matter. As the song says, 'handguns are made for killing'. It's very difficult to make a non-lethal attack with a device intended to kill people. I'd require Shifts to be used to convert damage to non-lethal, on a 2-1 ratio. (3-1 with Guns.) There's a reason police don't reach for their sidearms in every confrontation.
Fists, on the other hand, are non-lethal. It's possible to beat someone to death with your bare hands, but it takes time and a lot of determination.
The point is that no extra rules are necessary for this. A *player* gets to choose the results, not the character. If a player is consistently choosing results only because they're beneficial to the character, and this isn't what the rest of the table finds reasonable, then it's unreasonable. Sometimes a person gets shot once and dies, sometimes they get shot a half dozen times and live. Both are "reasonable" consequences and are allowed for within the system. What would be unreasonable is if a player decides that he doesn't want his character to be a murderer after blowing up a building filled with people. Even if some (most?) of the people survive there is no way for the character to have known that they would. The character is no less irresponsible despite the act of the player to mitigate that responsibility. And the table should come up with what they believe would be reasonable results based on the action involved (this includes the GM and players, or just the GM if the players prefer). But the bottom line is that the rule isn't that you get to pick *anything*. You get to pick any result that is reasonable. There are very important distinctions at work here. The player chooses the result, and not the character. And the result must be reasonable.
But this is all really way off topic, for which I apologize (since I'm almost entirely responsible for the tangent). As to why Fists aren't fail, it's less a matter of them being non-lethal (or less lethal) but one of escalation (for which lethality is a major factor). Pulling out a weapon, any weapon, is the universal sign of "This just got serious." If that isn't the message you want to be sending, then fists are your main option.
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But this is all really way off topic, for which I apologize (since I'm almost entirely responsible for the tangent).
It's not your fault. "All threads eventually devolve into First Law debates" is this location's theme.
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It's not your fault. "All threads eventually devolve into First Law debates" is this location's theme.
Did we come up with a clever phrase for that yet?
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Thinking about this some more, I think the other main factor in thinking of "Fists being made of Fail", that has already been touched on by a few, is what sort of game you are running. Namely, what sort of characters do you have in your group at one level of power and the focus of the game itself. If you are running a fairly low key, mortal game, Fists is going to be a very valid skill to have. By the same token, if you are running said game with a running theme of realism to it, walking around your local city/town strapped like a Spec Ops team has some severe consequences.
And, if you don't believe me, go out to a parking lot of a local strip mall with some bopper swords and start some sparring up. No need for excessive yelling or dramatics. Then time how long it is before at least one patrol car pulls up to see what is going on. Personal experience from my college days can vouch that this will happen. Sometimes inside 10 minutes. Some times with a fairly large response if some citizen reported this sparring as armed gang violence. True story on that one BTW; we were covered by three 9mm's while we explained to the lead officer what we were doing in front of my friends apartment. ;D
Amp this up to carrying around actual, real weapons and imagine how well that will go over. Amp it up again to actually discharging your weapons and now you really have some attention. Guns are loud. Most people getting hacked into by a sharpened length of metal are loud.
BUT, if you game is higher powered, then, yea, mortals with Fists are just going to be less useful. The game I am running has 5 Submerged level wizards that are part of a White Council black ops squad hitting Red Court holdings, kidnapping black-magic cultists and doing other such dirty jobs that a normal Warden force isn't well suited towards. Needless to say, against most of the opposition they run into, duking it out with bare knuckle hand-to-hand combat does not happen much. And for good reason.
At this level of power, if you want a Fist oriented character, you need to add in some supernatural bang to the mix. Like cooking up some chi (or whatever) powers for a mystical kung-fu master. Then throw in some good stunts to boot.
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BUT, if you game is higher powered, then, yea, mortals with Fists are just going to be less useful. The game I am running has 5 Submerged level wizards that are part of a White Council black ops squad hitting Red Court holdings, kidnapping black-magic cultists and doing other such dirty jobs that a normal Warden force isn't well suited towards. Needless to say, against most of the opposition they run into, duking it out with bare knuckle hand-to-hand combat does not happen much. And for good reason.
At this level of power, if you want a Fist oriented character, you need to add in some supernatural bang to the mix. Like cooking up some chi (or whatever) powers for a mystical kung-fu master. Then throw in some good stunts to boot.
One Stunt and they have weapon 3 attacks since they can use a two-handed weapon for what it is worth. I think the stunt that turns Fists into a general-purpose defense stat is also great. Certainly nothing beyond that is needed.
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One Stunt and they have weapon 3 attacks since they can use a two-handed weapon for what it is worth. I think the stunt that turns Fists into a general-purpose defense stat is also great. Certainly nothing beyond that is needed.
Very true, those are the stunts I took for my Fists monster character. The other things to do are make sure Might and Endurance are sky-high (Superb and Great respectively for Bear) and take some Endurance and Grappling stunts as well. When you get into deep-submerged games, though, sometimes you go up against creatures with Toughness powers that make fists hard to use. That's when you want the chi/magical punch gauntlet/holy fire/etc powers to satisfy those Catches.
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YOU ARE SO SMALL! IS FUNNY TO ME!
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Or get yourself a Sword of the Cross. As a GM I hate those things.
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Or get yourself a Sword of the Cross. As a GM I hate those things.
As as a player I love them.
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...BRASS KNUCKLES OF THE CROSS!!!
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No the best names for brass knuckles are LOVE and PEACE.
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Well, Love is clearly Amoracchius reforged (as has been hinted to have happened at least a few times in the last ~2000 years), this time in the form of brass knuckles.
Peace, though...I'm thinking Fidelacchius (the sword of Faith) is the closest parallel (the other option being the sword of Hope)...
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Well, we already know that to be chosen to wield a Sword you need to be related to royalty, but to bear both Love and Peace you'll need someone who's polydactyl as well.
Now, Love and Hope would work. I wonder if Sanya will trade out for Fidel... Fidil... the katana.