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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Beyrs on February 28, 2011, 06:12:40 AM

Title: Greater Glamour
Post by: Beyrs on February 28, 2011, 06:12:40 AM: I'm sorry if this is in the wrong topic and if this has been answered else where but I could not find it. I was wondering how Greater Glamours work. Is it it used like evocations or like thaumaturgy? If you could supply examples I would greatly appreciate it. In the book it supplies mechanical differences but gives no examples. Any information would be greatly helpful. Also how long do they last and does it change the shift?
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: Tedronai on February 28, 2011, 08:36:01 AM: Glamours (and Greater Glamours by extension) act neither as evocations nor as thaumaturgy. They are simply what they are.

Used to effect a Veil, the character rolls their choice of Discipline or Deceit, which functions as a block against Perception. Since neither power mentions a duration, it's probably best to assume that it lasts the scene (or until dispelled or dismissed). Greater Glamours offers an additional option of either a +2 bonus or an enlarged veil.

Similarly with Seemings, but with a more subtle, and versatile, deception. Greater Glamours provides a +2 bonus.

True Seemings is effectively just a license to say 'yeah, I have one of those right here' for whatever you might need in any given situation, up to and including the ill-defined 'creatures'. The limits of this power do not seem to be defined.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: Amseriah on February 28, 2011, 12:50:12 PM: A huge thing to remember regarding Glamours and Greater Glamours is that they don't use mental stress to use. So with them you can veil for free, create illusions for free, etc. I know that this is probably not the way that a lot of other people feel like it could be used, but I could even see Greater Glamours used as an attack. I doesn't say anywhere that True Seemings can't be used to create realistic lightning bolts or fireballs. I personally feel that this explains why, (Changes spoiler)
(click to show/hide)
Lea wasn't getting tired or winded at all during the huge RCV fight in Changes
.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: Tedronai on February 28, 2011, 05:32:10 PM: Do remember, that she's said to be around, if not beyond, the power range of a Faerie Lady. She's in 'Plot Device' territory.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: HWalsh on February 28, 2011, 05:44:16 PM: Jumping in here for a moment...

(I'm actually Beyr's GM)

I, granted, am new to running the Dresden Files RPG (and the FATE system in general) and since he's seeking information for the group I'm going to need page quotes before I can make a final decision here.

I'm slamming into a couple problems:

Tedronal, you made the statement:
"Glamours (and Greater Glamours by extension) act neither as evocations nor as thaumaturgy. They are simply what they are."

While it is nice to say this, and technically you are correct as far as thematic reasoning goes, as far as game mechanics however that is a completely different situation.

According to the information in "Your Story" the heading under "Glamour" gives no rules, nor does it say that it does not follow the standard rules for "Veils" which are laid out on page 276 of "Your Story" this leads me to believe that a player character with "Glamour" can use glamour to create a veil as per Evocations.

Which sends us to "Your Story" page 255 - Utilizing the side bar found there we see the system for veils.

Thus, not only do they cause mental stress, as per any spell casting, but they do it in the exact same way. You spend your power, you take your hit, and you move on. Remember, in the books Harry also doesn't get mentally winded every time he hurls a spell either. He's done some pretty impressive things without seemingly taking any mental stress. Game mechanics however work differently.

The reason why characters wouldn't take (as much) noticeable stress is because Veils take a smaller amount of power than other uses of power and because they last until pierced.

So, whereas Harry will (in the books) have to cast 3-4 spells before getting winded (which when we look at this game that means, assuming he is using rotes) around 3-4 mental stress total. A veil, which is kept up for however long the scene is, would only require one activation and would only cost effectively 1 "power" and thus only 1 mental stress, thus only accumulate 1/4 as much mental stress.

As to the game itself the question becomes, "Well then what good is Glamour?"

Well, for one thing, Glamour is cheap.

At a total cost of -2 Refresh Glamour is a bargain.

As it can be used for veils, it seems to indicate that it can be used for Evocation style veils. As such though it would follow the same rules, and would still generate mental stress. The main difference here is that you use a skill, and not "power" to determine the strength of the veil.

Not only that, but it allows the creation of a "seeming" which allows you to change an appearance (a power not mimicked in Evocations or Thaumaturgy) as a non-stress causing action. This allows you to simply make a defense or block roll against attempts to recognize the seeming.

The biggest benefit of the Glamour is that you don't have to concentrate to maintain it.

The main reason we don't see Fae usually winded from this is because we rarely see the Fae throw down in the novels. They usually have agents that do things for them (such as Harry's Faerie Godmother's dogs) or we are seeing ridiculously powerful entities like the Summer/Winter Ladies, the Queens, and other True Fae.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: bitterpill on February 28, 2011, 05:55:02 PM: Glamours don't cost mental stress if you look in the raw any power that requires mental stress says that it requires mental stress, if glamours worked on the system of mental stress there would be an option to incease the strength of the glamour by using more stress.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: EdgeOfDreams on February 28, 2011, 06:02:10 PM: I disagree. I believe Glamours does not cause mental stress.

For one thing, if Glamours worked like Evocation, then you have to have Conviction to determine the stress, and roll Discipline to control it. The Glamours entry mentions neither. With Evocation veils, the power you call up determines the stress level and block strength, but with Glamours, Deceit or Discipline determine block strength. This is clearly a different mechanic. If you ran it like Evocation, then how many shifts of power would you require the player to call up? One? Zero? But there's no benefit to calling up more.

Since Glamours is limited to stealth and trickery, I do not see it as needing the balance of limited uses per scene as Evocation does. Adding mental stress to Glamours is needlessly complicating a story-oriented power by adding combat trappings and implications.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: wyvern on February 28, 2011, 06:06:16 PM: The section for glamours does give some rules, though: it says you can put up illusions (veils or seemings) based on either your discipline or deceit skill. That doesn't sound like evocation to me.

However, my main argument for why glamours is a different beasty stems from the following observation: If we go by your ruling that glamours is just evocation, then there is no reason for the power to exist. Channeling (illusion) would solidly cover everything that glamours could do, for the same price, and comes with focus item slots to boot. Seelie magic (or unseelie magic) covers everything greater glamours can do (and then some!) and even comes with enough focus item slots to replicate greater glamours' plus two bonus. Oh, and both of those options allow you to spend more mental stress (or even consequences) to boost the power of the effect, something glamours can't do. Given that, why would any character _ever_ want glamours under your ruling?

There are, yes, a number of holes in the specifications for the glamours power - how long they last, how many you can have active at once, etc. But, in my not-so-humble opinion, making them cost mental stress is a mistake. On the other hand, allowing direct attacks via true seemings is probably also a mistake, and I wouldn't allow a character to so much as materialize an anvil over someone's head.

(For the record, my default ruling on glamours duration is: seemings (including unattended true seemings) last until dawn. Veils last a scene. You've got a total volume limit roughly equivalent to the maximum amount of stuff you can veil; if you've got a glamour running on five of your friends, or a true seeming the size of a truck, you'll have to drop that in order to veil a group of people. Personal illusions and veils do not count towards this volume limit.)
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: HWalsh on February 28, 2011, 06:10:14 PM: Quote from: bitterpill on February 28, 2011, 05:55:02 PM
Glamours don't cost mental stress if you look in the raw any power that requires mental stress says that it requires mental stress, if glamours worked on the system of mental stress there would be an option to incease the strength of the glamour by using more stress.

Actually you would be a little mistaken.

Nowhere in the RAW does it say, under any supernatural power, that anything takes mental stress.
That isn't covered until the individual system section itself. By this line of reasoning no sponsored magic, or any form of other magic, would grant any mental stress.

Quote from: EdgeOfDreams on February 28, 2011, 06:02:10 PM
I disagree. I believe Glamours does not cause mental stress.

For one thing, if Glamours worked like Evocation, then you have to have Conviction to determine the stress, and roll Discipline to control it. The Glamours entry mentions neither. With Evocation veils, the power you call up determines the stress level and block strength, but with Glamours, Deceit or Discipline determine block strength. This is clearly a different mechanic. If you ran it like Evocation, then how many shifts of power would you require the player to call up? One? Zero? But there's no benefit to calling up more.

Since Glamours is limited to stealth and trickery, I do not see it as needing the balance of limited uses per scene as Evocation does. Adding mental stress to Glamours is needlessly complicating a story-oriented power by adding combat trappings and implications.

If it is going to be used in combat to make someone "poof" in the middle of a fight? Which I promise you it will be then it having combat trappings and implications indeed makes perfect sense.

Though, after reading through replies, as the GM in this case I've made a decision. I think I will remove the mental stress requirement from the power. I will simply have to do some serious consideration on combat uses.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: MijRai on February 28, 2011, 06:16:14 PM: I will also point out that Greater Glamours is a full Sidhe power alone. It is mostly in the books for reference, like Domination. Unless you have a really good story or you are making a bad guy, you wouldn't be playing with that.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: zenten on February 28, 2011, 06:17:07 PM: Quote from: HWalsh on February 28, 2011, 06:10:14 PM
Though, after reading through replies, as the GM in this case I've made a decision. I think I will remove the mental stress requirement from the power. I will simply have to do some serious consideration on combat uses.

How I handle glamour veiling in my game is it provides the "Invisible" aspect, with a free tag. It doesn't make someone an invalid target.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: EdgeOfDreams on February 28, 2011, 06:20:44 PM: Quote from: HWalsh on February 28, 2011, 06:10:14 PM
If it is going to be used in combat to make someone "poof" in the middle of a fight?

True, going invisible during a fight can be a big deal. Note, however, the section on veils specifically calls out the difficulty of seeing *out* of your own veil. As GM, I think you'd be well within your rights to either require the veil to be weakened or ask for alertness checks (opposed by half the veil's strength, as stated in the book) to be able to see your opponent well enough to attack from hiding. I would also probably take a page out of the D&D player's handbook and state that attacking breaks any invisibility or veil you have active. This should help to keep a lid on what the players can get away with offensively, though it still leaves Glamours as an awesome defensive/stealth/escape tool.

EDIT: And of course, the enemy always gets the alertness check to see through it.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: luminos on February 28, 2011, 06:22:45 PM: Glamours, like Shapeshifting and Inciting Emotions, does not cost mental stress. It is not spellcasting. It is one of the natural powers that some of the Fae have, like inhuman speed and such.

If you want to look at points cost, think of this: You can get channeling for -2 refresh as well, and on top of that, you get two focus items and the ability to perform any attacks, maneuvers, veils, blocks, and counterspells you can justify with your element. Glamours is just the ability to veil and produce small items that look real but aren't. Plus, the entry for glamours mentions that you can use discipline or deceit to determine the effect. Doesn't sound like spellcasting to me. Plus, it makes no mention of it following spellcasting. It's not in the same section as spellcasting. The only connection between the two is that both can create blocks against perception. That alone doesn't give evidence that they use the same subsystem. Otherwise, you could say shapeshifting and incite emotions using thaumaturgy, or maybe breath weapons uses evocation.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: Ophidimancer on February 28, 2011, 06:26:31 PM: For both Glamours and Greater Glamours I just have it use a simple Discipline or Deceit roll to set up the illusion. They also have nothing to do with spellcasting, so they don't cause stress. Seems simple enough to me.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: LokiTM on February 28, 2011, 06:57:36 PM: Given that it is only allowed to "pure fae of considerable power" I think this is one of those things that was never really intended to be used by PCs in the normal course of affairs. It is more of a model than a carefully balanced power.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: bitterpill on February 28, 2011, 07:06:46 PM: I could come up with several reason why a PC would have greater glamours (most of these including faes being bound to a person or an object) other the true seeming (which really should have defined limits, ie No I materialise a working suit case nuke, stinger missile etc) greater glamours aren't particulary broken for 4 refresh power.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: HWalsh on February 28, 2011, 07:09:36 PM: Quote from: LokiTM on February 28, 2011, 06:57:36 PM
Given that it is only allowed to "pure fae of considerable power" I think this is one of those things that was never really intended to be used by PCs in the normal course of affairs. It is more of a model than a carefully balanced power.

Yeah.

That is what I gathered.

Basically I was GM'ing the system, and had to set the game and learn it in a very short amount of time, because our main group GM was desperate for a break. So I told the group, pretty much, "Okay, I'm new at this, and still learning this system so things are going to be a little rocky." and the group was cool with it, it was just supposed to be a change of pace to give our main GM a couple of weeks off anyway. When the PC in question took the power we both missed the requirement, and the implications for some of the horrendously powerful things that the True Seeming was capable of.

At the time, my assumption that it worked like other veils and what not, made me consider "sure, okay, I can work with that" afterward the scrutiny of what the power was capable of and the ensuing deluge of questions regarding it however has prompted me to reconsider the power.

For those wondering my final decision was to strip the PC of the power, then allow them to re-spend the 4 refresh points as they see fit.

I figure that is more fair for everyone involved.

I'm not new to the pitfalls of GM'ing though, having done it for 22 years now, but again system familiarity was lacking in this case.

Thanks for the feedback all.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: Tedronai on February 28, 2011, 07:18:58 PM: What I'd recommend is downgrading to regular Glamours, then spending that extra 2 refresh on a specialized Channeling replicating the effects of thaumaturgical Conjuration with evocation's speed and methods (assuming the character has the Discipline and Conviction to make that worthwhile, possibly allowing them to rework their skills to suit the new build)

They'd then retain the same conceptual capabilities, but within more reasonable bounds (no working suitcase nukes from thin air).
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: bitterpill on February 28, 2011, 07:20:38 PM: Why didn't you just let him take regular glamours or did he not want too. I think if people wanted a stronger glamours power in one of my games I would let them get the +2 to veils and seemings without true seemings for +3 refresh instead of 4.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: HWalsh on February 28, 2011, 07:27:57 PM: Quote from: bitterpill on February 28, 2011, 07:20:38 PM
Why didn't you just let him take regular glamours or did he not want too. I think if people wanted a stronger glamours power in one of my games I would let them get the +2 to veils and seemings without true seemings for +3 refresh instead of 4.

He may take basic Glamour if he wishes, I will not allow a "weakened lesser greater glamour" however.

In this case I have already finalized my decision.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: KOFFEYKID on March 01, 2011, 03:41:28 AM: Glamours functions way different than Veils via Evocation do.

Evocation based Veils are a Defensive Block opposed by Alertness (you must roll Alertness equal to or higher than the value of the veil to overcome it). You set the shifts of power and roll to control, but regardless of your control roll, the strength of the veil is up to you. You always have an option to suck up backlash stress to make sure it's as strong as you wanted it to. It might cost you, but you aren't ever forced to make a veil less strong than you want it because of a roll.

Glamours based Veils trigger an opposed roll whenever somebody comes into contact with it or hace a chance to defeat it. The number isn't static and you have far less control over it, so it is far less reliable.

Furthermore: Evocation Veils can benefit from focus items and specializations meaning they have a much higher range of strength than a Glamour based veil.
Title: Re: Greater Glamour
Post by: tymire on March 01, 2011, 05:26:28 PM: Nm the fact that there seem to be more defenses against glamors compared to veils. For example a certain eye rub listed in the base book....