I had this to say on the topic:
Rituals like the one Lord Raith did dont necessarily require any personal magic to work them. You are just performing a sequence of nonmagical events which gets the attention of an outsider who'll do you a good turn for following the instructions. Technically, if Harry's explanation is true and my logic holds up, you dont get a lawbreaker because you didn't use magic.
The white council's laws do not apply, however the metaphysical truths behind them might. He's already a predator who has no compunction with destroying lives to get what he wants though, so I'd likely say that he's a little beyond lawbreaker.
The White Council's laws do not apply to him. Lord Raith is not even human. End of story.
We're not talking about the White Council's laws, we're asking if he should get the Lawbreaker stunt.
Hmmm... I'd contend sometimes. Killing, at least, is part of his nature as a "monster"- it's a bigger deal for mortals I think, so they get lawbreaker. However, some of the more "hard-core" Laws like the Outsider Law could warrant it. I think his numerous abilities cover the costs of killing and some laws related to his nature already. So I'd say Mind-Messing and Killing Laws wouldn't apply. Other Laws not related to his nature (such as Outsiders) I could see an argument for.
We're not talking about the White Council's laws, we're asking if he should get the Lawbreaker stunt.
So, Lord Raith is a monster; but not a Lawbreaker in either the legal White Council sense or the Lawbreaker sense.
Does Lord Raith qualify for Lawbreaker? We know he has killed with magic, and used Outsiders to do so. (For those who don't remember he was involved with the ritual spell that killed one of the pornographic models in Blood Rites, and we can't forget Harry's mom. And since the ritual was backed by an Outsider, it seems like a 7th Law violation as well)
White Court Vampires do have some kind of soul, as near as we can tell (Thomas and Lara have been soulgazed in front of us), so it seems logical it can be tainted by dark magic.
WCVs certainly don't get Lawbreaker for their inherent mind-bending abilities (Incite Emotion/Emotional Vampire); it is never stated if a WCV with 'True Magic' abilities (Channeling/Ritual or Evocation/Thaumaturgy) gets them. I would tend to think not ... I think Vitto Malvora would have had it on his sheet if any WCV could.
I'd go with Richard on this one. Mab calls Thomas "mortal" (in respect to love), so it goes back to the man v. monster debate (the whole point of refresh)- Lawbreaker would bring him closer to monsterhood, and his refresh approaches that as well.
Here's an interesting question: Say, Marcone hires a mortal wizard who has no problem breaking the Laws of Magic. Would the White Council invite an act of War by trying to enforce their own laws on a Signatory of the Accords, or do you think that would fall to the Blackstaff to deal with?
I'd imagine the Mortal is still eligible for the Lawbreaker Stunts, but the White Council's hands would be simultaneously tied (out of their jurisdiction) and clean (not their problem). There might be Summits, of course, to no avail, so long as Marcone stands firm.
But if Marcone's Mercenary Wizard was becoming a high-profile nuisance to the White Council, then Steps may need to be Taken.
I'd imagine the Mortal is still eligible for the Lawbreaker Stunts, but the White Council's hands would be simultaneously tied (out of their jurisdiction) and clean (not their problem). There might be Summits, of course, to no avail, so long as Marcone stands firm.The White Council went to war against a much more powerful signatory with less reason. They'll simply claim the rogue wizard is a member of the WC and subject to it whether he wishes to be or not. Remember,
But if Marcone's Mercenary Wizard was becoming a high-profile nuisance to the White Council, then Steps may need to be Taken.
I'd imagine the Mortal is still eligible for the Lawbreaker Stunts, but the White Council's hands would be simultaneously tied (out of their jurisdiction) and clean (not their problem). There might be Summits, of course, to no avail, so long as Marcone stands firm.
If you are a mortal with magical power then you are under the jurisdiction of the White Council.
Let's Lea said "F U Mab! I'm working for Marcone now and there's not a thing you can do about it!" - do you think that:
A) Mab would say "curses, foiled by my own accords", or
B) Point out where it says page X, clause Y, that once you're part of a signatory (i.e. the Winter Court) that you can't just declare you're part of another one?
I could even see Mab insisting that Marcone pay Wergild for his role in things - since he is trespassing on her turf by luring away one of her hirelings...
But say that Marcone gets a wizard and keeps him under wraps (i.e. the White Court doesn't know about him) - then the Wardens wouldn't be knocking on his door but the Wizard would still have to take the Law Breaker Stunts.
I can't imagine Mab (described as the ultimate rules-lawyer) not considering the possibility of switching affiliations.
Since technically, all a mortal spellcaster has to do is take a coin to become a member of the Blackened Denarius, and thus a member of another signatory.
The question is, how easy is it? Perhaps it requires the permission of both parties to allow for a legal (under the Accords) switch. References are made to making wizards Red Court vampires during the War (or at least the possibility), but it's not clear that this happened very often previously.
I could see all the Signatories making it very difficult to get out from under one jurisdiction into another, for a lot of reasons. So, probably for Marcone to legally have his own pet spell caster would require the White Council to sign off on the transfer...and I'm sure there would be a LOT of conditions attached, even if they allowed it.
The way you base that argument, any mortal caster born after the White Council signed their charter for the Unseelie Accords would be under the protection of the White Council, regardless of their personal traditions or if they believe in the White Council's values or authority to govern them. Man, I really hate Big Magical Government
Remember that to the supernatural world and beings of the Nevernever, what one IS is a very simple and obvious thing. It is part of their very nature. I like the example of Toot Toot given above. When Harry went over, so did his "Army" of little Fae. And he didn't even have to send out a memo or anything. The natural order shifted and the new reality took hold.
The White Council claims all mortal casters by default. This was done for two reasons. One, the other, non-mortal signatories of the Accords probably did even consider it could be otherwise. It would be like Mab having to go through and assert that any member of her Court were actually members of her Court... individually. The second reason was that the Wizards are shrewd, paranoid and careful types that understood that, for many reasons, having default claim to all mortal casters was the way to go. Otherwise, it would be open season on young mortals with the gift and any faction could just go forward with a "Final Solution" to the Wizards all nice and legal like. This is why the Red Court had to go to war to do just that.
Now, mortals are cheeky things. They have a free will that is recognized by (if not entirely understood) by supernatural beings like the Fae. So, a mortal can choose to serve or align with another power. But that choice leaves an indelible mark upon their soul that is, usually, readily apparent to anyone in the know. If a new Winter Knight walking around bumped into the Erlking on the street, the Erlking would immediately recognize him for what he is. The touch of Winter would permeate his very being and soul. Same if mortal picks up a Coin, sells his soul to a Dark Power or demon, or swears faith to a god like Odin.
Now, other mortals may not be able to instinctual know. But, to those beings of the Nevernever, it is as simple as reading a name badge at a convention.
Oh, absolutely. Which is why I consider that part (Allies vs Enemies gained) a break-even. After all, don't forget that with the allies and respect comes a commitment to be a team player.