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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: bibliophile20 on February 13, 2011, 04:26:31 PM
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Wereforms in the Dresdenverse have a distinct disadvantage in the winter, and its becoming a major issue for one of my PCs (he's a werehawk). We've been discussing if it's possible to have the wizard enchant some pants or something that'll transform with him and then transform back. (The wizard currently has a Lore of 3, btw). Help?
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Sure, why not?
This is um...a burgling roll to hide the pants on his person using thaumaturgy. That's not that hard.
Or you could do it as a might roll to hold the pants, I suppose.
It's just a pair of pants....it doesn't matter.
I think in 1952 the White Council actually passed a Wereform Public Decency Act which makes it a crime to not have on at least a pair of pants (and shirt for the ladies!) I think they pass out free trinkets that allow this to anyone interested. Harry didn't sign Billy and Co. up because he was sticking it to the man.
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Seems like a fairly minor thing to me. I wouldn't remotely be bothered by GM handwaving the item. I.E. "It allows you to have pants. I don't care how mechanically it does that."
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Maybe spend a fate point to have your clothes transform with you back and fotrth
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I tend to favor the Animorphs approach, I think they are able to shift forms while wearing clothes that are skin tight... like a wet suit.
Otherwise, I think it's so minor I think you can just let them do it without charging them. That is unless they could smuggle something important with them in the shifted form, in which case I'd make it cost -1 probably.
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Otherwise, I think it's so minor I think you can just let them do it without charging them. That is unless they could smuggle something important with them in the shifted form, in which case I'd make it cost -1 probably.
Mal, you live somewhere where pants aren't important?
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Mal, you live somewhere where pants aren't important?
I'm betting San Francisco or L.A. :P
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Jokes aside, escaping clothes which no longer fit and trying to find clothes when returning to human form are both part of the disadvantages inherent to being a werewolf or other therianthrope. I wouldn't make those disadvantages too easy to negate.
At the same point, as GM I wouldn't make finding clothes that much of a problem for a player...most of the time. If nothing else, it get's boring. I'd probably treat it as compelling his high concept, "Here's a fate point, you're naked in Time Square. What's your next plan?"
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At the same point, as GM I wouldn't make finding clothes that much of a problem for a player...most of the time. If nothing else, it get's boring. I'd probably treat it as compelling his high concept, "Here's a fate point, you're naked in Time Square. What's your next plan?"
I did one better. "Hi, you're naked and it's 6 degrees Fahrenheit out. Roll Endurance to defend against an Epic amount of cold..."
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It takes time for hypothermia to set in, even at 6 F. :) When I was younger (and stupider) I used to go from snow to the jacuzzi and back...
Back to the original question, it's also worth noting there are several perfectly mundane methods of dealing with the issue. The shapechanger could plan ahead and leave caches hidden in likely places. He could also wear a fannypack with a change of clothes. Stealing clothes out of charity bins, houses, or vendor racks is unethical and carries legal risks, but it is another option. Some form of fannypack is probably the most reliable. If you want to go all out (and have the resources to do so) he could have the pack harness suitably tailored for his beast form. Even weak animal forms would be able to carry some of the light mesh runner's packs available.
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It takes time for hypothermia to set in, even at 6 F. :) When I was younger (and stupider) I used to go from snow to the jacuzzi and back...
And I bet you were at least warmed up thanks to the water; he didn't have that option...
Back to the original question, it's also worth noting there are several perfectly mundane methods of dealing with the issue. The shapechanger could plan ahead and leave caches hidden in likely places. He could also wear a fannypack with a change of clothes. Stealing clothes out of charity bins, houses, or vendor racks is unethical and carries legal risks, but it is another option. Some form of fannypack is probably the most reliable. If you want to go all out (and have the resources to do so) he could have the pack harness suitably tailored for his beast form. Even weak animal forms would be able to carry some of the light mesh runner's packs available.
I will simply note that a red-tailed hawk--his wereform--has a body mass of between 1.5 and 3.5 pounds. So not only would a fannypack probably nearly double his flight mass, it would add a lump that would be only mildly aerodynamic at best--pretty much a free tag to the enemy of "screw with my rolls!"
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I will simply note that a red-tailed hawk--his wereform--has a body mass of between 1.5 and 3.5 pounds. So not only would a fannypack probably nearly double his flight mass, it would add a lump that would be only mildly aerodynamic at best--pretty much a free tag to the enemy of "screw with my rolls!"
There are still the other methods I mentioned. Though, when mentioning the fannypack, I hadn't realized you'd modified the power. Per the fiction, mass didn't change.
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I wish it 9F here... With the windchill it's -15.
Well, -26C which works out to about -15F... And I was okay without gloves on for a while before I felt the cold sinking in and my hands began to get that numbing sensation that Southerners are mercifully ignorant off... And the sting when they warmed up - it's a sting, but it's nothing that would require a dice roll...
But back to the topic at hand, I can't help but agreeing that lack of clothes is one of those things that weres have to put up.
If we can have magic pants for shapeshifter then why not magic sunblock for Red Court Vampires or magic garlic blockers for Black Court Vampires or spells to repel Iron for the fae...
That last one would be tricky to do with Fae magic, but there's no reason to think that a mortal wizard couldn't make something like that - only gamewise it's bad for inherent weaknesses to be worked around. You take the good, you take the bad, and there you have your supernatural package. Having only the good stuff doesn't make the character half as enjoyable as having the mixed bag of tricks.
Nor does having a workaround for a hard limitation like that fit with the setting. If mortal mages could cast "protection from Iron" on Fae then a certain Summer Lady would have had her pet mage cast it on her and Toot-toot would have never completed his charge.
And with weres in the books, how many times has Harry mentioned being uncomfortable around all the naked flesh when the Alphas are doing their switch? If magic clothes were easy to make he would lend them his aid. Seriously, if it was easy to magic up clothing that could handle the change then Billy would at least have a magic speedo and Georgia would have something beach legal to wear.
The only time it would make sense for the weres to have shifting proof clothes is if there were kids playing the game (one person mentioned that he tried to run a game for his preteen children). In cases like that I can see a magic swimsuit that changes with the were, but that's more modifying the game to acceptable to youngsters than something that should be part of the DV.
Richard
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The magic clothing seems to defeat the idea of a were in my opinion. And if you could stand the cold in your beast form, why shift out of it/ just develop a code system for when in animal form.
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There are still the other methods I mentioned. Though, when mentioning the fannypack, I hadn't realized you'd modified the power. Per the fiction, mass didn't change.
Page 83 of Your Story, Billy side-note.
Still, we figured it’ d be more fun if
we just allowed folks to go for bigger or sma ller
forms if they could find the points for it.
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It just really doesn't seem like a huge disadvantage to me. Most of the time they're just going to shift back and grab a pair of sweats from a friend. You're just cutting that bit of narrative out. As far as the other times when it might inconvenience them, they're just expressing that that isn't something that they want to focus on. I have no problem if they don't want to deal with that specific downside, I can find others to focus on and I'm sure both the player and I will enjoy it much more.
If we can have magic pants for shapeshifter then why not magic sunblock for Red Court Vampires or magic garlic blockers for Black Court Vampires or spells to repel Iron for the fae...
That last one would be tricky to do with Fae magic, but there's no reason to think that a mortal wizard couldn't make something like that - only gamewise it's bad for inherent weaknesses to be worked around. You take the good, you take the bad, and there you have your supernatural package. Having only the good stuff doesn't make the character half as enjoyable as having the mixed bag of tricks.
Nor does having a workaround for a hard limitation like that fit with the setting. If mortal mages could cast "protection from Iron" on Fae then a certain Summer Lady would have had her pet mage cast it on her and Toot-toot would have never completed his charge.
And with weres in the books, how many times has Harry mentioned being uncomfortable around all the naked flesh when the Alphas are doing their switch? If magic clothes were easy to make he would lend them his aid. Seriously, if it was easy to magic up clothing that could handle the change then Billy would at least have a magic speedo and Georgia would have something beach legal to wear.
Really? This is comparing a mild inconvenience to death. This is like saying that a spell that allowed one to be comfortable in mild cold is comparable to a spell that allows one to swim in magma. These are two very different things.
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I did a game where I played a werebear. Ran several zones away and across a city street... Battle ended and I was stuck with the prospect of getting more attention by returning to my clothes or having to be naked a while.
My wife (the GM) had a good, evil laugh about that one... Had to wait for the other players to pull the car around.
I liked having to deal with the clothing issue but other groups may find it bothersome. YMMV.
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Really? This is comparing a mild inconvenience to death. This is like saying that a spell that allowed one to be comfortable in mild cold is comparable to a spell that allows one to swim in magma. These are two very different things.
Indeed. Both are allowable though. A spell that stops iron from touching a Fae? That's just a block with a very narrow spectrum (and like any block can be overcome) -- or possibly armor. A spell that lets you swim in magma? Well, that's more complicated than JUST a block against heat since you also need to handle getting proper air, but it is theoretically possible in the game.
Anyhow, it isn't like wereform game balance is predicated on pants. That's a supremely minor issue as you say.
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It takes time for hypothermia to set in, even at 6 F. :) When I was younger (and stupider) I used to go from snow to the jacuzzi and back...
That is supposed to be incredibly good for your skin, I'm told.
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I think this debate has been underscoring the difficulties I've been having deciding what to do in this case. :)
So, to summarize, there's basically two viewpoints: one, that a set of clothing that changes with you is essentially cosmetic, much like Wizard's Constitution, in that it has some major implications but for actual day-to-day gameplay doesn't matter that much, and the second, in which it is a big deal, and is a lessening of one of the major problems with being a were-form, with no tradeoff and is a much bigger issue than you would otherwise think, given precedent. (Trying to do my best for a one sentence summary, I know I missed nuances, but, beyond that, is that a fair summary?)
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I think that is a great summary.
Richard
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I did a game where I played a werebear. Ran several zones away and across a city street... Battle ended and I was stuck with the prospect of getting more attention by returning to my clothes or having to be naked a while.
My wife (the GM) had a good, evil laugh about that one... Had to wait for the other players to pull the car around.
I liked having to deal with the clothing issue but other groups may find it bothersome. YMMV.
That feels like a compel to the high concept to me.
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That feels like a compel to the high concept to me.
Yeah... My wife is mean... No FP...
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"I tend to favor the Animorphs approach, I think they are able to shift forms while wearing clothes that are skin tight... like a wet suit."
I'm a total Animorphs fan (well, I hate the way it ended, but that's a long story). But I wouldn't allow "skintight clothing included" unless the person could switch into multiple shapes.
Dian
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I'm a total Animorphs fan (well, I hate the way it ended, but that's a long story).
No, it's a short story: the author can't write decent endings to save her life... Animorphs... Remnants... Everworld... notice a pattern here?
But I wouldn't allow "skintight clothing included" unless the person could switch into multiple shapes.
So, so far, based on the various comments, I think I'm going to go with the "you get a fate point for having to run around naked in human form as a self-compel against your high concept, perhaps two if the environment is particularly hostile."
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back in the early 90's when I was running a game using the Night life RPG one of the PC's was a wolf-were.
She (and I'm not sure this would work for a male character- but I guess that woudl depend on teh 'adult content' level of your game) had a collar that fitted well in her wolf form and looked like some strange goth-like affectation in her human form. The collar had a small internal pocket that concealed in it a roll up 'boob-tube' style dress. So when she found herself needed a human form at short notice she could remove the collar, take out the dress and pull it on.
Of course it was rather form fitting, included no underwear and did lead male personages to make certain assumptions as to her motivations for being down dark alleys late at night... But at least she was never arrested for indecency. (Assault in responding to one to many come ons a little more forcefully than required yes- indecency no)
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In my view, if a player doesn't want to deal with the hassle of not having clothing then he doesn't have to. I'm happy to say that this particular PC is just a really awesome shapeshifter who has mastered the art of morphing clothing, and NPCs look on in jealousy.
And no, it's not going to cost him anything. Refresh cost is a very rough-grained system anyway. I don't think the problems of being naked were figured into the costs or anything.
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Here is a wrinkle no one has mentioned
Someone finds the shifters discarded pants/dress/purse and takes their wallet
Identity theft? Plain old theft?
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Here is a wrinkle no one has mentioned
Someone finds the shifters discarded pants/dress/purse and takes their wallet
Identity theft? Plain old theft?
Any problems due to disrobing are compels against their High Concept. Not having to disrobe means that's just not a valid compel.
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Here is a wrinkle no one has mentioned
Someone finds the shifters discarded pants/dress/purse and takes their wallet
Identity theft? Plain old theft?
Ooooh, nasty... Werecharacter shifts into something smaller, and their clothes are "stored" in the Nevernever with their excess mass and intellect. (As mentioned on YS83 in the PDF version, not sure where in the hardcover...) This is fine and dandy, but then some fairly ignorant little pixie or something finds this lump of stuff, and decides that he just found a huge bundle of free trade goods... Most of it disappeared before he could salvage it all, but he got this fancy leather thing with bits of metal, odd paper and some strange bits he can't identify well... And what does VISA mean, anyway? But surely, it could be used to trade with others, right?
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One idea I've used is just writing some fae connections into the character's backstory, and giving him an amulet (item of power +1) that grants glamours (-2). It's cheap, covers at least all the social issues associated with lack of pants, and having access to veils and seemings is just useful anyway.
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censor bar veils? :D