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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: bitterpill on February 11, 2011, 10:00:01 PM

Title: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: bitterpill on February 11, 2011, 10:00:01 PM
 If a True Believer (in God) character went around acting utterly against their faith showing no mercy and choosing combat as his primary means of dealing with any in game problems would it be right for a GM to take away his righteousness power and holy touch power as long as he gave the character a rebate in refresh as the GM is unwilling to kill the character off as he is proving too much fun.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: sinker on February 11, 2011, 10:04:02 PM
I'd say yes if the GM spoke with the character first and made sure the player was okay with it. Otherwise you could try compelling him regularly to try to bring him back into line with his aspects.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: bibliophile20 on February 11, 2011, 10:20:06 PM
Or if they, y'know, bisect any unarmed and defenseless octogenarians. 
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Bruce Coulson on February 11, 2011, 10:22:59 PM
Wouldn't it be more fun if someone went around and did all that...and didn't lose their abilities?  Making people wonder what God's plan really was...

Seriously, I'd definitely speak with the player first.  Playing a crisis of faith could be a dramatic set of stories...if that's what the player wants.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: bitterpill on February 11, 2011, 10:26:26 PM
The real trouble is that as he is he fits better into the group dynamics than as a real true believer, the party are all DD players so they are all into hitting stuff till it dies screaming and are all playing morally ambivalent characters, so if I forced my true believer to act like a true believer I would be isolating him from the rest of the party. My only problem with the status quo is thematically it makes very little sense. I suppose I should just leave things as they are or see if I can persuade the player to find a supernatural sponsor and ditch the Believer Powers.

Or if they, y'know, bisect any unarmed and defenseless octogenarians.  

Our party would probably sensure him if he did something like this because they would see it as wasteful use of human life.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: bibliophile20 on February 11, 2011, 10:40:26 PM
Our party would probably sensure him if he did something like this because they would see it as wasteful use of human life.
I was making a reference to a webcomic, The Order Of The Stick; the author had a paladin character who was a case study of a "Lawful Stupid Paladin" mindset taken to its logical conclusions. 
(click to show/hide)
 
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Bruce Coulson on February 11, 2011, 11:10:24 PM
I don't think I would work well with your group...but if they're all having fun, it seems wrong to punish one player just because his concept doesn't quite fit.

I'd work with him and see what would work given the group dynamic.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Drachasor on February 11, 2011, 11:52:58 PM
If a True Believer (in God) character went around acting utterly against their faith showing no mercy and choosing combat as his primary means of dealing with any in game problems would it be right for a GM to take away his righteousness power and holy touch power as long as he gave the character a rebate in refresh as the GM is unwilling to kill the character off as he is proving too much fun.

Lots of ways to go.  Is it real Wrath of God type stuff that he's doing?  Jehovah wasn't big on mercy, nor was he very nice.  Perhaps his patron isn't the White God, but some other entity.  Alternatively, there are plenty of fundamentalist crazies (though I suppose not all fundamentalists are crazy) who wouldn't fit in well with the White God.  Perhaps they create a reservoir of power with their faith that this guy taps in to.

On the other hand, if he's killing innocents or something because he just doesn't care much, then he should probably get confronted with that at some point, especially if it goes against any of his aspects.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Drachasor on February 11, 2011, 11:56:20 PM
The real trouble is that as he is he fits better into the group dynamics than as a real true believer, the party are all DD players so they are all into hitting stuff till it dies screaming and are all playing morally ambivalent characters,

Hey, I've played D&D a lot and never was morally ambiguous.  Always Neutral Good and fought for justice and dealt with the difficult moral issues.  Well, there was the one character that used his knowledge religion and such to hack up those goblin scouts we killed now and then so the other goblins thought one of their big boogieman gods was displeased with them.  He also used some illusion magic to back that up.  That was necessary for the war effort though and saved a lot of lives in the end by scaring the jujubes out of them...and desecrating bodies isn't that bad in that sense, I don't think.  Also, it was pretty cool.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: mithrandirthewhite on February 12, 2011, 12:30:10 AM
My DM would totally strip the powers from him, but then again noe that I am a DnD player not a DFRPG player. I just lurk this forum. :D
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: sinker on February 12, 2011, 01:00:14 AM
Now that I think on it the "Hellfire and Brimstone" style preachers would not be above utterly destroying a supernatural baddie, but if he's slaughtering innocents then it get's a bit off.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: bitterpill on February 12, 2011, 01:30:24 AM
He has never killed an 'innocent' directly but there have been situation where I set up a Mexican standoff with vampires and the vampires were using a bunch of college students as shields, the vamps were like 'don't come any closer or we will kill them all' he said 'meh' and jumped the distance between them beheading the vamp in one stroke and got the students killed in the crossfire, when the others in the party asked if that was necessary he replied "very". Then there was the time he accepted a job from a fae no less to kill a rogue pixie, before taking the job he asked was the pixie evil to which the fae replied "you could say that" and his response was "good enough for me".
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Richard_Chilton on February 12, 2011, 01:38:51 AM
There are varying interpretations of any faith.  Point to practically any faith and you'll find members who sincerely tell you that "that group over there? they aren't part of our faith even though they say they are".

Believe it or not, during the Albigensian Crusade crusade, one papal representative in reported to have said:
"Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" is response to the question of "How do we tell the good Christians from the heretics?"

That phrase basically translates as "Kill them all! God will know his own." - meaning that in the worse you're helping someone to heaven a little bit early and it's better to do that then let one of the sinners escape.

Which is a long way of saying that there are countless ways of playing True Faith.

Richard
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: mithrandirthewhite on February 12, 2011, 02:04:55 AM
Funny thig belief. It doesnt make it true. (I know this statement can be interpreted many ways, but I'm commenting on people who  think they follow the teachings of thier faith when really they are twisting it to thier own ends.  Hope no offense is taken by people of faith.)
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Moriden on February 12, 2011, 03:27:43 AM
Just wanted to put it out there that some of the things considered "the proper course of action" from a historical Christian viewpoint would be considered mildly abhorrent by most modern individuals.

On the other hand if hes acting in direct opposition to how the st thinks he should then absolutely strip his powers. maybe offer a slightly more demonic alternative. if he starts hearing voices hes likely to think there from god after all.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: mithrandirthewhite on February 12, 2011, 03:32:07 AM
Maybe he'll be a Bieber fan and then consider Beiber a phony and then the world will be a better place ;).
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: noclue on February 12, 2011, 03:42:12 AM
Just clarifying, are you having an issue with how the player is behaving or are you cool with the stuff he's doing? I can't tell. Did you guys reach an understanding during character gen about what kind of person his PC would be?

By the way, what's the character's High Concept and Trouble?
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Drachasor on February 12, 2011, 03:53:55 AM
He has never killed an 'innocent' directly but there have been situation where I set up a Mexican standoff with vampires and the vampires were using a bunch of college students as shields, the vamps were like 'don't come any closer or we will kill them all' he said 'meh' and jumped the distance between them beheading the vamp in one stroke and got the students killed in the crossfire, when the others in the party asked if that was necessary he replied "very". Then there was the time he accepted a job from a fae no less to kill a rogue pixie, before taking the job he asked was the pixie evil to which the fae replied "you could say that" and his response was "good enough for me".

Why was he doing a job for a Fae to begin with?  Does he do pretty much any job that comes his way?  Under what circumstances would he not do it?  Does he consider the lives of fae to not really matter since they aren't people?

Obviously he's some kind of monster.  If you want to press the point you could have a Knight of the Cross show up....because no Knight of the Cross would get along with him.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: toturi on February 12, 2011, 04:18:22 AM
The real trouble is that as he is he fits better into the group dynamics than as a real true believer, the party are all DD players so they are all into hitting stuff till it dies screaming and are all playing morally ambivalent characters, so if I forced my true believer to act like a true believer I would be isolating him from the rest of the party.
How does the rest of the group feel about his character's behavior? Do they also think that he isn't acting like a "real" true believer? Or can they accept such behavior? Do they see that how he acts is in accordance to being true to his beliefs?
He has never killed an 'innocent' directly but there have been situation where I set up a Mexican standoff with vampires and the vampires were using a bunch of college students as shields, the vamps were like 'don't come any closer or we will kill them all' he said 'meh' and jumped the distance between them beheading the vamp in one stroke and got the students killed in the crossfire, when the others in the party asked if that was necessary he replied "very". Then there was the time he accepted a job from a fae no less to kill a rogue pixie, before taking the job he asked was the pixie evil to which the fae replied "you could say that" and his response was "good enough for me".
How did the party take his replies? Did they think that he was acting out of character for a true believer?
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Drachasor on February 12, 2011, 04:22:47 AM
How does the rest of the group feel about his character's behavior? Do they also think that he isn't acting like a "real" true believer? Or can they accept such behavior? Do they see that how he acts is in accordance to being true to his beliefs?

Most importantly is whether they are ok with his behavior.  If they think it is out of character, then that's not as important as whether they are ok with the consequences of what he is doing.  He's playing a jackass Fist of God-type...and history has had truly religious people that have acted a lot worse.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: HobbitGuy1420 on February 12, 2011, 04:56:42 AM
The issue with that, Drachasor, is that being a True Believer and/or Champion of God isn't about being Religious, as I understand it.  It's about living the faith you believe in.  This is why Sanya, who isn't even Christian, has a Sword of the Cross.  I feel that if someone is acting as a champion of the faith but behaving in ways that are counter to the virtues specified in their faith, then they should at the *very* least get a heavenly messenger with a sobering wake-up call.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Drachasor on February 12, 2011, 05:49:10 AM
The issue with that, Drachasor, is that being a True Believer and/or Champion of God isn't about being Religious, as I understand it.  It's about living the faith you believe in.  This is why Sanya, who isn't even Christian, has a Sword of the Cross.  I feel that if someone is acting as a champion of the faith but behaving in ways that are counter to the virtues specified in their faith, then they should at the *very* least get a heavenly messenger with a sobering wake-up call.

The White God picks people who believe in his general point of view about helping and enabling people.  Being a Knight of the Cross isn't about religious belief at all.  One might say that Sanya does have True Believer in certain moral precepts though which align with those of the White God and other Knights of the Cross.

There isn't necessarily a reason to think any given religious person, even deeply religious person, would get along well with the White God.  Heck, the Bible doesn't get along well with the White God a lot of the time...at least with the things he current supports in the Dresden books.  There's a lot of nasty, bigoted stuff in there.  Sensible Christians ignore those parts, but that doesn't make them not exist and it doesn't mean there aren't or haven't been a lot of people using those passages to support their terrible points of view.  As the book outlines it, True Faith isn't about one creed, it is about believing in something bigger than you are and perhaps in some sense unknowable (though Sanya might disagree on the latter part).  A complete monster can do that just as well as someone nice (I'd say "saint" here, but in the books Saint Patrick does at least one horribly evil thing).  There's no particular reason such beliefs need the backing of those whom you think they are about or those we think they are about.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: noclue on February 12, 2011, 05:57:08 AM
The issue with that, Drachasor, is that being a True Believer and/or Champion of God isn't about being Religious, as I understand it.  It's about living the faith you believe in.  This is why Sanya, who isn't even Christian, has a Sword of the Cross.  I feel that if someone is acting as a champion of the faith but behaving in ways that are counter to the virtues specified in their faith, then they should at the *very* least get a heavenly messenger with a sobering wake-up call.

Well, the first question is what was everyone's understanding of this character during chargen. Did the GM understand that he was going to be playing a mercenary with little compunction, or did he describe the character as a Champion of God. Character creation in DFRPG is not a solitary venture. It's collaborative. If he created a True Believer type and has arbitrarily abandoned that character to just do whatever. It's a player issue and needs to be addressed outside of game mechanics. So, I'd really like to see his aspects.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Richard_Chilton on February 12, 2011, 06:04:42 AM
Name the faith and you can find a dozen variants of it, all claiming to be the one true way.

For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_movements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_movements) list quiet few different sects that all see themselves as the correct one.

If you look at Christianity there are literally thousands of sects out there - all with different beliefs about what "the White God" (as Mab names him) wants.

Looking at other literacy examples, Jim Butcher mentions that he reads Simon R Green, and Simon R Green recently had a book where the Walking Man (the wrath of God among men) arrived in the Nightside, bringing death to the wicked.  He's called the Walking Man because when he comes for you he walks in a straight line - nothing can stop him and he can kill practically anything while nothing can harm him.  When various targets talk about repenting and God's forgiveness, the Walking Man calmly says "Not my department" and kills them.   When other representatives of God try to talk to him the Walking Man basically ignores them - because they aren't his department.  Narrow vision and armed with the Wrath of God - that's interesting take on a soldier of God.  I'm thinking maybe Morgan as a Knight of the Cross.

Or to put things another way - we are a group of gamers posting on a board that frowns on "touchy topics".  We are not theologians.  We are not going be able to determine the "real" agenda of God as presented in the Dresden Files.  Not in a way that we all agree on.  Not in a way that everyone who follows Him would agree on.  Not now and not ever.

I can't even point out areas where faiths disagree without touching on topics that have no place on this board - but I'll give one example of a sect that's trying to make up its mind on a topic.   The Episcopal Church / Church of England / Anglican Communion (which is all one group under different names) is currently debating same-sex marriages along with openly gay clergy and bishops.  They've been debating it since at least 1998 and since parts of the group are moving in different directions they are tearing themselves apart.  They are led by theologians and they dive head first into touchy topics, and they can't make a call on that one issue.  They can't even seem to come up with a compromise that is more than "let's agree to keep talking".

If they can't come up with an answer to that one, small issue, then we can't come up with the broad goals of how God is portrayed in the Dresden Files.  I mean, he has a black ops archangel and holy warriors who kill monsters, warlocks, and other "evil" people - name a sect whose vision of God encompass all that.

What's left? The group in question deciding if someone is playing in character for what the group thinks is the message is supposed to be.

Richard
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Drachasor on February 12, 2011, 06:18:43 AM
Or to put things another way - we are a group of gamers posting on a board that frowns on "touchy topics".  We are not theologians.  We are not going be able to determine the "real" agenda of God as presented in the Dresden Files.  Not in a way that we all agree on.  Not in a way that everyone who follows Him would agree on.  Not now and not ever.

Err, right.  I get in trouble on the other forums on here because I don't have a problem with touchy topics or slightly heated conversations.  We probably shouldn't talk about this anymore or a mod will come in and send me a warning about my inappropriate posts.

Gah, or maybe this is an inappropriate post.  This place can be overly sensitive.  Thankfully it doesn't seem to touch the RPG section much.

In any case, a particular deity backing you in the DV (my shorthand for the dresdenverse) doesn't even mean you believe in them and Sanya is an example.  There's no particular reason that your True Faith powers actually need to match up to a given deity you might think they do in the DV either.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: bitterpill on February 12, 2011, 06:51:06 AM
I really didn't have a problem with how the character actually acting is providing all sorts of fallout for later in the game and as he is not picking fights with the rest of the party so they are ok with him acting chaotic neutral rather than lawful good. The only reason I had a problem with his true faith abilities is because I am not sure a character who being roleplayed as venal self-serving and just a little bit sadistic should have a power called righteousness.   

Oh his high concept was
True Sword of God
His trouble was
Only Human
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Richard_Chilton on February 12, 2011, 07:13:36 AM
Venal and self-serving is one of the best descriptions of "Only Human" I've seen recently.

Much better than the American adaptation of the British show - but I really should watch more than five minutes before making that judgment.

As for touchy topics - it doesn't get much more touchy than trying to define someone's faith - especially if you draw examples from more than 20 years ago...

Richard
(who deleted several example before finding one that he thought wouldn't offend anyone - and it was hard to find that one)
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Drachasor on February 12, 2011, 07:13:51 AM
I really didn't have a problem with how the character actually acting is providing all sorts of fallout for later in the game and as he is not picking fights with the rest of the party so they are ok with him acting chaotic neutral rather than lawful good. The only reason I had a problem with his true faith abilities is because I am not sure a character who being roleplayed as venal self-serving and just a little bit sadistic should have a power called righteousness.   

Oh his high concept was
True Sword of God
His trouble was
Only Human

Hmm, his trouble should be "Kind of a monster" or "Has no heart."

As for righteousness, maybe you should change the name.

Hmm, does the PLAYER understand that not giving a dang about people's lives and such is not very ethical?  (Ethics and faith are two separate things, remember).  It does seem like a problem if the character doesn't actually have any beliefs.  Maybe you should sit down and try to figure that part out.  If his faith tells him it is ok to be venal and a total jerk, then that can potentially be alright.  Kind of odd for the Abrahamic Religions (at the very least they've been big proponents of their own communities).  Seems like he'd make a lot more sense as a worshiper of some god of battle that believed you had to test yourself in conflict and you could only find any inkling of true meaning that way -- guys like that can be real psychopaths.

Hmm, does he honor the deals he makes or does he break them if they are slightly inconvenient?  (Just asking for law/chaos purposes).

There is a really big problem if his aspects and behavior don't match up.  What are his other aspects?  What does he mean by "True Sword of God"?  Has he read the Dresden books?

Seems like the main problem might be the character (considering his sheet and in play) is too incoherent, and perhaps the player doesn't realize that.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Drachasor on February 12, 2011, 07:17:04 AM
Venal and self-serving is one of the best descriptions of "Only Human" I've seen recently.

Eh, altruism, self-sacrifice, kindness and such is only human as well.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: bitterpill on February 12, 2011, 07:33:03 AM
The character was true believer who had his family killed by Vampires and so permanently linked his faith to the destruction of monsters as its primary goal (though his definition of monsters is not defined very well) he is a character ruthlessly seeking vengeance and using his faith as an excuse. As a character though he is moving further and further away from a faith based justification and is now pretty much at the level of he is this because he wants too which was why the change in his powers came up, as at the moment the only thing his character seems to believe in is himself and his revenge. 
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Drachasor on February 12, 2011, 07:41:14 AM
The character was true believer who had his family killed by Vampires and so permanently linked his faith to the destruction of monsters as its primary goal (though his definition of monsters is not defined very well) he is a character ruthlessly seeking vengeance and using his faith as an excuse. As a character though he is moving further and further away from a faith based justification and is now pretty much at the level of he is this because he wants too which was why the change in his powers came up, as at the moment the only thing his character seems to believe in is himself and his revenge. 

Maybe Nemisis (Greek Goddess of Vengeance) should show up and offer to make him her champion.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: sinker on February 12, 2011, 07:49:07 AM
This seems like a situation that could be resolved with an actual crisis of faith. Talk to the player and ask him if he would mind if you presented a session that was primarily about his faith and where it may lead in the future. If he agrees then present him with a situation where his faith and his personal agenda diverge. If he picks his faith then an occasional gentle reminder in the form of compels would probably be enough to keep him at least close to where he should be (seems to me that what he's doing right now is only a little outside of the realm of reason). If he chooses his own personal agenda then I'd say go for it, strip his powers, but give him something else. Perhaps a darker sponsor.

Looking at other literacy examples, Jim Butcher mentions that he reads Simon R Green, and Simon R Green recently had a book where the Walking Man (the wrath of God among men) arrived in the Nightside, bringing death to the wicked.  He's called the Walking Man because when he comes for you he walks in a straight line - nothing can stop him and he can kill practically anything while nothing can harm him.  When various targets talk about repenting and God's forgiveness, the Walking Man calmly says "Not my department" and kills them.   When other representatives of God try to talk to him the Walking Man basically ignores them - because they aren't his department.  Narrow vision and armed with the Wrath of God - that's interesting take on a soldier of God.  I'm thinking maybe Morgan as a Knight of the Cross.

Of note I didn't like the nightside books when I first gave them a try but this sounds awesome.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: noclue on February 12, 2011, 05:59:51 PM
I really didn't have a problem with how the character actually acting is providing all sorts of fallout for later in the game and as he is not picking fights with the rest of the party so they are ok with him acting chaotic neutral rather than lawful good. The only reason I had a problem with his true faith abilities is because I am not sure a character who being roleplayed as venal self-serving and just a little bit sadistic should have a power called righteousness.   

Well, if it's not a player problem than you could just ask the player that question. Or offer him a Compel on the True Sword of God aspect to say that God has removed his favor.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Richard_Chilton on February 12, 2011, 06:25:36 PM
Eh, altruism, self-sacrifice, kindness and such is only human as well.

That does describe human, but not (at least in my mind) "Only Human".  "Only Human" (to me) implies all the frailties and flaws of the human condition.  Listing it as a trouble implies negative bits of being human - especially if his high concept is linked to the divine.

Then again, I don't know what sparked the Aspect.
"When called upon to do god's work he pushed himself, time after time, hour after hour, always know that there was more that needed to be done.  After falling asleep on the 43rd hour of staking out a warlock's house, he accepted that he was Only Human, and that while god's will needed to be done he couldn't surpass his human limitations to do it." - Only Human here is about the limitation of a mortal body.

"While following a suspect warlock, a hot girl approached him and started talking to him.  He answered her back and they started talking and he is Only Human he lost sight of the warlock." - Only Human here is tied to temptation (and inspired by a scene in Dr. Horrible).

"He knew he should kill the demon, but the demon was in the body of a six year old girl who was cute as a button.  True, the angel had said that the girl was already dead, that demon had possessed her dead body, but he was Only Human and could bring himself to shoot." - Only Human here is tied to personal morality overriding divine commands.

That's the same aspect with three very different meanings.

Richard
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Praeceps on February 12, 2011, 06:27:53 PM
The character was true believer who had his family killed by Vampires and so permanently linked his faith to the destruction of monsters as its primary goal (though his definition of monsters is not defined very well) he is a character ruthlessly seeking vengeance and using his faith as an excuse. As a character though he is moving further and further away from a faith based justification and is now pretty much at the level of he is this because he wants too which was why the change in his powers came up, as at the moment the only thing his character seems to believe in is himself and his revenge. 
If he believes the purpose of his faith is the destruction of monsters, no matter what, then he sounds like he's still pretty in character (and ignoring the death of hostages is a very appropriate thing to do). Just ask him to indicate in character that what he is doing is part of his faith (he only really needs to do simple things like shouting about how the enemy will see the fury of the White God or peppering his speech with religious lines like "As God wills").
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Richard_Chilton on February 12, 2011, 06:49:00 PM
Hmm, does the PLAYER understand that not giving a dang about people's lives and such is not very ethical?  (Ethics and faith are two separate things, remember).  It does seem like a problem if the character doesn't actually have any beliefs.  Maybe you should sit down and try to figure that part out.  If his faith tells him it is ok to be venal and a total jerk, then that can potentially be alright.  Kind of odd for the Abrahamic Religions (at the very least they've been big proponents of their own communities).

Actually, it's not that out of place.

When talking ethics you have to consider the source.  Ethics gleamed from divine teachings can be different than those gleamed from humanitarianism research.

Fire and Brimstone type judgment is the cornerstone of some sects.  Some sects believe in something called "unforgivable sin" (they don't agree on the definition of that) and then you have Kalvin's "everyone who is destined to be save will be saved; everyone who destined to be damned will be damned".

He killed a fairy that might or might not have been evil? Another way of looking at it is that he killed this thing from another world who was plaguing God's Children, interfering with their freewill, and had to be dealt with.  As an aside, I could easily picture Micheal (in his prime) going toe to toe with Harry's Godmother over what she does with mortals.

He ignored the fact that there was a hostage? Another way: he trusted in God to protect the innocence while he dealt with the evil doer.  If the hostage dies then it's all part of God's plan and that evil doer had to be dealt with before he harmed others.

Knowing that someone is on a mission from God makes them scary.  They believe they have divine permission to do whatever needs to be done, trusting in God to protect them from Illinois Nazis, country singers, and state police as they rush to pay the tax money on that orphanage.  Yes, I'm saying that (in Dresden terms) Jake from the Blues Brothers was the vessel of Faith powers that he could tap to get that money and get it to the court house on time.

Seems like he'd make a lot more sense as a worshiper of some god of battle that believed you had to test yourself in conflict and you could only find any inkling of true meaning that way -- guys like that can be real psychopaths.

Just pointing out that every religion has victory prayers.  One of the reasons for the great shift away from religion that followed WWI was that all sides were praying to the same god for victory (the one was "what sort of god would allow this"?).  A true holy warrior is very scary and virtually all faiths have had them.

Richard
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Richard_Chilton on February 12, 2011, 06:49:33 PM
Of note I didn't like the nightside books when I first gave them a try but this sounds awesome.

The book it's from is called Just Another Judgment Day, and it's an interesting one.  All of the power of the Nightside (including things that call themselves gods) can't do anything to stop The Walking Man or defend themselves from him.  One of the people trying to solve things is a holy warrior from another religion who wants to know who's god is bigger, and then there's Razor Eddie - punk god of the straight razor who's on the side of good and good doesn't get a choice about it.

It's a bit like Simon R Green was DMing and said "Okay, this week we're dealing with something that you can't fight so you'll have to reason things out" - and it works.

Richard
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Drachasor on February 12, 2011, 07:03:42 PM
He killed a fairy that might or might not have been evil? Another way of looking at it is that he killed this thing from another world who was plaguing God's Children, interfering with their freewill, and had to be dealt with.  As an aside, I could easily picture Micheal (in his prime) going toe to toe with Harry's Godmother over what she does with mortals.

It was a job he got from another faerie.  He seems to blindly accept whatever offers he gets and completely ignore any and all consequences of his actions.  As far as his sense of ethics go, they suck.  As far as his sense of responsibility goes, it sucks as well.  It's one thing to claim he has faith that stuff will work out (the problems with that we can't really get into on this forum), but it's another to not use the slightest ounce of brainpower worrying about traps, tricks, or other the like.  The latter he's definitely doing.  A Fae goes "you could say he's evil" (or the equivalent of that) well, that means zip, zero, nada, you can say anyone is evil.  You could say Ghandi was evil.  You could say Martin Luther King Jr. was evil.  You'd be completely wrong, but you could say that.

From what the OP says, he's not bothering to do the least bit of fact checking or care regarding what he does.  I actually take back the Nemesis idea, because that wouldn't fit him either.  At best he's a mercenary that cares very little what sort of job he gets.  That's how it is looking.  Here's a question for the OP:  If a fae offered him a job to kill a pure mortal, and that fae said "you could say they are evil" would he do the job?  Let's say it pays really well.

Oh, and Fae technically don't interfere with Free Will much at all.  A Fae has zero power over you except the power you choose to give it.  That's why Michael said he couldn't do anything in the 3rd book, because Harry chose to give his Godmother power over him.  The exception would be if you gave away your first born or something, but that seems to be pretty darn rare.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Katarn on February 12, 2011, 07:43:57 PM
I agree, Fae can't take free will.  To quote Ebeneezer in Changes,


(click to show/hide)


(Evil is a relative term, often defined by "universal" standards.  I think that this person should do their research before offing someone, shy of getting divine inspiration.)

While I don't think aspects have to come in, a GM should discuss this with the player before going ahead- it makes great plot.  There's also a Christian theory that God is sometimes silent so that we can grow spiritually- the same idea could apply here.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: devonapple on February 12, 2011, 07:51:10 PM
My objective opinion is that this character needs to be rebuilt, and is in direct violation of most of its purported morality.

I can come up with any number of ideas on how to discourage the player from playing as you are reporting. Most of these methods have already been suggested, effectively and eloquently, almost to the point of needing to stretch out into some very sensitive ground to further expand understanding.

However, if this character - as played - is working in your game, then please take what I/we think with a grain of salt. Ultimately, you, your fellow players, and your GM are the best arbiters of what will work for your game.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Drachasor on February 12, 2011, 10:59:02 PM
However, if this character - as played - is working in your game, then please take what I/we think with a grain of salt. Ultimately, you, your fellow players, and your GM are the best arbiters of what will work for your game.

Agreed.  Sounds like the main problem people in the game are having is "character incoherency."  So reworking the character so that the aspects and powers make sense with his behavior so everyone in the group is happy with it seems like a good goal.  If the OP wants help with that, a list of his aspects powers, and some more detail on the sort of stuff he's done that's very mercenary or disregards consequences or sense would be nice.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: bitterpill on February 13, 2011, 02:16:02 AM
You know that Fae i mentioned who was asking the pc to kill a pixie as well as giving the character information as to where the red court nests were in the area also offered the character a rather powerful sword (Caladbolg) in exchange for a large favour the PC refused at the time but the offer remains open, so if I persuade the PC that offer was a good he will replace his Angel Blade (Asrael) and his True Believer powers for a sword with recovery and strength powers.   
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: sinker on February 13, 2011, 05:51:58 AM
Knowing that someone is on a mission from God makes them scary.

John Brown was on a mission from god.

Anyway, sounds like you could very easily present him with the choice to renounce his faith. I'd say go for it.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: Drachasor on February 13, 2011, 06:13:03 AM
You know that Fae i mentioned who was asking the pc to kill a pixie as well as giving the character information as to where the red court nests were in the area also offered the character a rather powerful sword (Caladbolg) in exchange for a large favour the PC refused at the time but the offer remains open, so if I persuade the PC that offer was a good he will replace his Angel Blade (Asrael) and his True Believer powers for a sword with recovery and strength powers.  

I am just wondering if he has many aspects relating to his faith.  Is his faith clearly defined?  Did he take the Fae job just because he doesn't consider non-humans as having any moral worth?  Under what circumstances would he not take a job?  Why'd the PC refuse Caladbolg?  Was it because he wanted to stick to a holy sword or because he didn't want to do the big favor?

Edit:  Clearly I am just going to have to bug Bitterpill's computer and gaming sessions.  *sigh*  That's always a lot of tedious work.
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: bitterpill on February 13, 2011, 06:52:41 AM
Why'd the PC refuse Caladbolg?  Was it because he wanted to stick to a holy sword or because he didn't want to do the big favor?

The PC refused Caladbolg I think because it involved owing a Winter/ Autumn Fae a large favour which is a very good reason not to do anything, my idea when offering up the fae sword was to get the PC to change from a not 'knight of the cross' to a not 'fairy knight' as to aspects on  his belief other than 'supreme over confididence' and 'no mercy for the wicked' I told him to pick things I would compel a lot. 
 
Title: Re: Losing True Believer Powers
Post by: noclue on February 13, 2011, 07:58:54 AM
The PC refused Caladbolg I think because it involved owing a Winter/ Autumn Fae a large favour which is a very good reason not to do anything,

I wish you had said that earlier. My sorcerer owes favors to both the summer and winter courts at the moment.