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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Funge on February 11, 2011, 10:52:13 AM
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So I've recently started playing in a game, and am coming to realize I'm not quite happy with my PC's aspects. I thought I'd start a thread where people with similar problems, or those who don't know which aspects to choose in the first place, can go for advice and ideas. So the idea is to tighten up everyone's aspects for next session, and to have a list of what everyone's aspects are for each player in addition to the GM. That way, especially in a group with eight PCs, everyone can keep an eye on potential compels during any given scene, and it gives the players not directly involved in a scene a little influence.
So the character is a go-to guy for the supernatural and the less-than-legal sets. If you need something, he knows a guy who can get it. Here's what I have right now. Any good ideas for potential compels or what the aspects can be invoked for? Also, does anything seem too broad or too narrow?
Marty Holbrook
High Concept:
Miami's Shadiest Clued-In Fixer
Invoke: With the fixer part, I'd say bribery, hobnobbing with the powerful, having access to somebody most wouldn't, coasting on his reputation, convincing someone he can help them out of a jam, finding people to do what he needs done, and so on. With the clued-in part, it's helpful with making inroads into the supernatural community or helping out with Lore rolls. With "shadiest," it's good for fitting in with lowlifes.
Compel: This one's maybe a little tougher. I see possibilities with the "shady" part of the aspect. If Marty's trying to actually fit in with high society or with actual decent people, it could be used to get him to come across as slimy. A more obvious route is with people coming to him for help making bad things go away. "I heard you can make the ghosts go away," that sort of thing. The aspect implies a certain level of infamy, as well. So perhaps a compel when someone too violent or powerful for Marty to handle comes calling, wanting a favor?
Those last couple bring up a question I have about aspects. The book suggests, in the "GM-driven compels" section on YS101-102, that sometimes there will be plot complication compels that don't really involve character choices. The example given is that the PC's brother shows up beaten and bloody on the PC's doorstep. Being a compel, there is a PLAYER choice involved--the example has the player spend a fate point to avoid the compel and call an ambulance to go deal with more pressing matters. But how often does a situation like this crop up in someone's game not in the form of a compel? Dramatic things happen constantly in games, and I'd think it would feel strange to present them in the form of compels. In other words, I'm not quite understanding how one would utilize compels that don't involve character choice. Here's a fate point to get your character to do something appropriately stupid makes sense, but here's a fate point for something to happen TO you doesn't to me. Anybody have experience doing things this way? And if so, how do you distinguish between compels of this sort and story-driven drama at the table?
Trouble:
A Vodoun Blackmailer Has My Number
I haven't worked out the details I really need to, but Marty knows his blackmailer is knee-deep in voodoo, but doesn't know who it is. The idea is that this corrupts him. He has a shady side job, but works with an ostensibly beneficial organization righting supernatural wrongs in the city. Meanwhile, his blackmailer occasionally wants favors and sometimes these favors conflict with what Marty's trying to get done.
Invoke: Help with being two-faced? Certainly help with trying to figure out who's blackmailing him. Good for dealing with stress?
Compel: To have Marty work at cross-purposes to anything good he's trying to do, but this only really works if Marty has demands from his blackmailer. If I'm going to keep this aspect approximately as-is, I'll have to make these needs very explicit to the GM.
I've considered replacing this one with a trouble aspect that is more personality-based and less situational, and that will come up more often. "I'm Smart, But My Mouth's Smarter" below might qualify, as would "I Got This."
Other Aspects:
Surely We Can Talk About This
Invoke: Pretty versatile. Getting him out of trouble when guns show up, when horrible supernatural beasties show up, or when his mom shows up. He's good at talking, and not so good with the fighting.
Compel: Good for getting him to try talking when he really should be running or shooting or screaming or maybe all three. This one came up last session when I self-compelled to try and talk to the hollowed-out animated skin of a former client. Also good for making a nuisance of himself when he's tried talking and failed or has been thoroughly dismissed.
I Know A Guy. With Horns.
This was intended to illustrate Marty's contacts across a wide spectrum, but especially regarding the supernatural.
Invoke: Dealing with the supernatural, knowing someone who knows something about the weird, being unfazed in the face of paranormal craziness or being prepared for supernatural capabilities or troubles.
Compel: I though about Marty's infamy making him a sort of supernatural shitstorm magnet, but that runs into the problem I outlined above. There isn't much character choice involved. This is the aspect I'm having the most trouble with. Any suggestions for compels? Or for an improved aspect?
I'm Smart, But My Mouth's Smarter
Invoke: Getting someone's goat, getting noticed in a social setting, seduction, winning friends and influencing people.
Compel: The troublesome side of this one's pretty obvious. Saying a smart-assed thing when he really shouldn't. Angering the influential. Getting punched in a bar for some snide quip. Failing to win friends and influence people.
The Authorities Like Me
Invoke: Dealing with the police or the feds, mostly. Getting bribes into the right hands and keeping them out of the ones that might take it the wrong way. Avoiding red tape. Maybe awareness of police procedure? Contact rolls within departments.
Compel: My idea for the negative side was a different interpretation of the words. "Detective Mills, you like Marty Holbrook for the perp on this kidnapping job?" "Oh, you bet I do." But that runs into the same problems above. There's not really much choice involved. It's just the authorities coming after Marty. Ways to avoid that problem might include compelling to get him to voluntarily interact with cops he really shouldn't, confident he'll be fine. Hey there, Detective Mills! "Hi. Uhh, is that blood on your shoe, Holbrook?" But this aspect could use some serious tightening up.
I Got This
Marty's cocky.
Invoke: Dealing with situations where he finds himself in over his head or when he finds himself acting alone, confident he can handle it.
Compel: Overconfidence takes its toll. Going it alone when he should ask for help. Taking aim at some horrible monstrosity when he should really be running.
Also, I Got This could make a nice replacement Trouble aspect.
Anyone with similar aspect trouble feel free to post here. And any help would be mighty appreciated.
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Miami's Shadiest Clued-In Fixer
He's shady, so if something is going on, there's probably a Cop asking him about it, especially since he's on good terms with them. There are probably Cops he's not on particularly good terms with (can't be liked by everyone) that might try to pin stuff on him or otherwise make trouble.
A Vodoun Blackmailer Has My Number
It could also be compelled to make him go after the Blackmailer if he gets a lead or think he gets a lead instead of doing whatever he should be doing. Or to jump at any chance to get this guy off his back. This one is pretty easy for him to self-compel.
I Know A Guy. With Horns.
This was intended to illustrate Marty's contacts across a wide spectrum, but especially regarding the supernatural.
Invoke: Dealing with the supernatural, knowing someone who knows something about the weird, being unfazed in the face of paranormal craziness or being prepared for supernatural capabilities or troubles.
Compel: I though about Marty's infamy making him a sort of supernatural shitstorm magnet, but that runs into the problem I outlined above. There isn't much character choice involved. This is the aspect I'm having the most trouble with. Any suggestions for compels? Or for an improved aspect?
This also means people come to him for help or to harass him or whatever. Maybe Supernatural guys come to him for help dealing with mortals. Also, all these contacts aren't very nice, so if something happens to one of them, they might blame Marty and come at him. Spending a Fate Point to buy off a compel might mean they visit when he's out or he makes them easily see he's not responsible. Part of the compel here might be that he owes some of these contacts small favors as well (fate point on his end means they come back with another favor later).
He could potentially self-compel this if you are ok with him making up a so-and-so who comes by asking for something while they are on a case.
The Authorities Like Me
Invoke: Dealing with the police or the feds, mostly. Getting bribes into the right hands and keeping them out of the ones that might take it the wrong way. Avoiding red tape. Maybe awareness of police procedure? Contact rolls within departments.
Compel: My idea for the negative side was a different interpretation of the words. "Detective Mills, you like Marty Holbrook for the perp on this kidnapping job?" "Oh, you bet I do." But that runs into the same problems above. There's not really much choice involved. It's just the authorities coming after Marty. Ways to avoid that problem might include compelling to get him to voluntarily interact with cops he really shouldn't, confident he'll be fine. Hey there, Detective Mills! "Hi. Uhh, is that blood on your shoe, Holbrook?" But this aspect could use some serious tightening up.
Well, this will mean some authority types see him as a slimeball who has influence over a bunch of filthy cops. You CAN'T make everyone like you. It also means that he might have to spend resources, times, or whatever keeping these people appeased. This one isn't that hard to self-compel either, he can decide a particular case has cop involvement and that he has to do something to deal with it (as long as it makes his life harder). If you make up a few cops or others who hate him for this, he could also toss in as a self-compel that one of these guys shows up with other cops or at some sort of social function. I'd reword this a little to something like "Friends in High Places" if you wanted to be a bit clearer.
My thoughts anyhow. Hope they are helpful.
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Since I've actually played with your character (in a non sexual way, of course) I will try to take a crack at this. I will apologize ahead of time for my snytax errors and switching between second and third person. I am tired. Sue me.
Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with your aspects. Especially consider the role that your character plays, I think you're pretty well off.
Plus, you can't really change aspects until we get milestones anyway so it's good to learn to make do.
I think the problem is that aspects are new to the group - the concept of aspects is nothing like standard RPGs. I am going to take this to mean you could use some help coming up with ways to use the ones you've got.
I obviously cannot answer the other game questions you've asked, so I will just start in on the aspect stuff.
Marty Holbrook
High Concept:
Miami's Shadiest Clued-In Fixer
Compels:
- You're notorious. The law enforcement you don't have in your pocket hate your guts
- You are very likely to have a long list of enemies - especially "in the dark" officials
- You may feel obligated to try shmoozing something over even if you're not involved or it's impossible
- Due to your base of operations in Miami, you're unlikely to know as many contacts in other places
- You may owe favors to notorious lowlifes in the city
- You have to play nice with terrible people - can't offend contacts
- Your level of cynicism knows no bounds
- In a choice between a legal and illegal activity, you will choose the illegal one
- Honestly good, moral, upright people can irritate you
- You like to rub how untouchable you are in the faces of law enforcement
- Even the supernatural community knows who you are
Invokes:
- You know just about everyone
- If it can be bought, you probably know the guy to buy it from
- You know Miami like the back of your hand - that includes driving, maps, etc
- Over the years you've learned a few tricks in fights and how to stay alive
- You know a plethora of random facts about or concerning Miami
- Even the supernatural community knows who you are
Trouble:
A Vodoun Blackmailer Has My Number
Compels:
- You can be compelled to do just about anything. Seriously. Especially weird or sadistic stuff
- You could be compelled to manipulate the group to attack a rival vodoun
- You may occasionally spout off some really random voodoo stuff that scares friends
- The voodoo community may be able to track you
- You may wonder if your actions are always yours - killing confidence
- Vodoun make you extremely uncomfortable
- Chicken guts turn you on or make you act drunk
- Due to your connection to the loa, you may occasionally see them
- Most practitioners of magic can see your aura and know you're a "marked man"
- Snakes fascinate you. You try to catch them
- If your friends found out, they wouldn't trust you at all
Invokes:
- You know a ton about voodoo from research
- You can read voodoo script and rituals sometimes from instinct
- When acting in the wishes of your magical blackmailer, your skills could be more focused
- Supernatural creatures could take pity on you and be kinder than normal
- Since you're under attack by magic all the time, you could have a better defense against it
- You can sometimes put your pent up violation due to your situation into combat
Other Aspects:
Surely We Can Talk About This
Compels:
- Not giving up on a discussion or negotiation ... even if you really should
- Talking when you should be fighting... or running
- Being too familiar with people or beings far more powerful than you
- Placing too much faith in your talking abilities
- Maybe he has a slew of past angry lovers
- Possibly, he doesn't know when to shut up
- He could have a hard time being quiet - like while sneaking
- Could include his friends in whatever trouble he is in with a bogus story including them
- You could have made too many promises in the past that were not kept so people don't trust you
- Your contacts may be worried that you'll tell other people their secrets
- Even the supernatural community knows who you are
Invokes:
- You’re phenomenal at talking people into and out of things
- If you’ve tried talking to someone and it still comes down to violence, you know there is nothing else that can be done
- Since you talk to so many people, you’ve learned a few tricks about almost everything
- You have a knack for making people like you
- Sometimes you can avoid a fight just by talking about it
- You are a naturally gifted liar
I Know A Guy. With Horns.
Compels:
- Could owe favors to Very Bad Things
- The existing contacts he has could prevent you from making beneficial alliances
- Beings Up To No Good could go through you to find who/what they want
- he’s talked to things more mortals do not know exist. He know things others don’t
- Old supernatural acquaintances might just drop in to say hi.. or lunch
- Hell hath no fury like a demoness scorned
- Due to the creatures he’s met, normal people don’t scare him much when they probably should
- Due to his worldliness, normal vices don’t do much for him anymore
- Many things may decide that who and what he knows is a liability
- His contacts may be worried that he'll tell other people their secrets
- Magical people or beings may sense or smell the stink of hell on him
Invokes:
- He knows things and people he probably shouldn’t be able to. Mab? Might have met her
- Knows more about the supernatural than he lets on
- Has learned how to kill a plethora of magical beasties
- Has been taught to sense magic and see auras
- Has a very good chance of recognizing monsters or magical items
- Does not intimidate easily at all
I'm Smart, But My Mouth's Smarter
Compels:
- Has a problem with being a smart ass to powerful things/people
- Can sometimes without thinking give away secrets
- May forget himself and talk about supernatural stuff in front of vanillas
- The things he says can sometimes have the opposite effect than intended
- May say offensive things to allies out of habit
- May keep talking or insulting even if he has the upper hand
- May keep talking or insulting even if he has the lower hand
- Has a tendency to blurt out what he thinks of people
- Can take a joke too long or too far (like with Ethan)
- May knowingly place himself or others in danger just to get the last word
- Can sometimes forget what lies he’s told and mess up his story
Invokes:
- Is absolutely great at pissing people off
- Has a knack for getting the better of people in verbal conflict
- Can talk so fast that it leaves a slower witted person in the dust
- Has a fairly easy time putting people at ease
- Is good at manipulating enemies during combat
- Can sometimes yell or say something disconcerting while being attacked and throw his enemy off
The Authorities Like Me
Compels:
- May be contacted to be a consultant on cases
- When law enforcement is around, they know who he is and he has to act proper
- He may want to lay off a case or walk away rather than risk his reputation
- Since the authorities like him, ruffians may not
- He could be fairly easily blackmailed since he plays both sides
- He may owe favors to cops that he cannot ignore
- Since he is so well known, people could go to him for help
- It could be awkward if he were seen with certain kinds of people
- Every agency in town probably has his fingerprints on record
- Me may have authorities looking for him fairly often
- Some authorities may like him since he could be a convenient fall guy
Invokes:
- It is not that difficult for him to get law enforcement help
- If the right person is working he can call for backup
- He may have access to wealth beyond his means
- He could have a reputation for being trustworthy
- He could have taken advantage of advance martial arts or law enforcement training he was offered
- He knows people he really has no normal way of knowing. “Mr President- nice to see you again!”
I Got This
Compels:
- May wave back help
- May not take concessions or call himself taken out… even if he should
- May try fighting something that he should be running from
- Could try fighting when he really should try talking
- May cut another PC off from talking if he is talking to an NPC
- May come up with a plan and then act on it without getting consensus
- Could go to a dangerous meeting alone or take too few people
- May overestimate his skills… badly
- Has a problem with showing off
- May try a ridiculously difficult or complicated maneuver during combat doomed to fail
- May have a hard time following orders – any orders
Invokes:
- Has surges on confidence that increase his skill or focus
- Has huge bursts of bravery that allow him to ignore pain
- May impress someone with his willingness to take on hard tasks
- His problem with authority could be seen as free enterprise
- His confidence can strengthen his mind against intrusion
- He knows people he really has no normal way of knowing. “Mr President- nice to see you again!”
Anyone with similar aspect trouble feel free to post here. And any help would be mighty appreciated.
Shazzam
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My thoughts anyhow. Hope they are helpful.
Very much so, thank you. The bits about chasing after the blackmailer and owing favors to the supernatural community are especially appropriate. I'd be interested in any thoughts you have about the paragraph in my first post concerning the compels that don't involve character choice. This part:
Those last couple bring up a question I have about aspects. The book suggests, in the "GM-driven compels" section on YS101-102, that sometimes there will be plot complication compels that don't really involve character choices. The example given is that the PC's brother shows up beaten and bloody on the PC's doorstep. Being a compel, there is a PLAYER choice involved--the example has the player spend a fate point to avoid the compel and call an ambulance to go deal with more pressing matters. But how often does a situation like this crop up in someone's game not in the form of a compel? Dramatic things happen constantly in games, and I'd think it would feel strange to present them in the form of compels. In other words, I'm not quite understanding how one would utilize compels that don't involve character choice. Here's a fate point to get your character to do something appropriately stupid makes sense, but here's a fate point for something to happen TO you doesn't to me. Anybody have experience doing things this way? And if so, how do you distinguish between compels of this sort and story-driven drama at the table?
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What? No love for the Bear? :(
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Real quick, before I get to the rest of it:
Plus, you can't really change aspects until we get milestones anyway so it's good to learn to make do.
That's why I asked Ian in a recent email if we could deal with any less-than-stellar aspects by changing them at this point, fairly early on. I didn't get a response to that part of it, though.
Bluntly, this rule is silly. If you're playing with, say, four bad aspects that won't generate compels or won't come into play often enough to get invoked, it's ridiculous to make you waste milestone benefits on altering aspects and to wait something like ten sessions to fix everything. And I do mean "fix." If your aspects aren't working for you, they're broken. You are not going to be as involved in the story as you should be, and if you're not involved in the story, you won't be having much fun. Furthermore, whether or not an aspect works for you can depend very largely on the campaign or on the GM. Since you're creating your character before the game, these are likely unknowns to an extent. So in other words, you find that an aspect that would have been fine under different circumstances proves, in play, to be useless, or at least to need altering. Have fun waiting a few sessions before you can fix it.
Aspects are the lifeblood of this game. Without them, it's just FUDGE. If we can't fix what's broken with them when we need to, the game is not firing on all cylinders. I understand you wouldn't want players altering their aspects whenever it suits them to get an unfair advantage in-game. A werewolf walks in the room and suddenly you've got the "I Kill Werewolves" aspect. Avoiding that is good. But if that sort of thing obviously isn't what you're going for, why is the game stopping you from making the story better?
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Real quick, before I get to the rest of it:
That's why I asked Ian in a recent email if we could deal with any less-than-stellar aspects by changing them at this point, fairly early on. I didn't get a response to that part of it, though.
Bluntly, this rule is silly. If you're playing with, say, four bad aspects that won't generate compels or won't come into play often enough to get invoked, it's ridiculous to make you waste milestone benefits on altering aspects and to wait something like ten sessions to fix everything. And I do mean "fix." If your aspects aren't working for you, they're broken. You are not going to be as involved in the story as you should be, and if you're not involved in the story, you won't be having much fun. Furthermore, whether or not an aspect works for you can depend very largely on the campaign or on the GM. Since you're creating your character before the game, these are likely unknowns to an extent. So in other words, you find that an aspect that would have been fine under different circumstances proves, in play, to be useless, or at least to need altering. Have fun waiting a few sessions before you can fix it.
Aspects are the lifeblood of this game. Without them, it's just FUDGE. If we can't fix what's broken with them when we need to, the game is not firing on all cylinders. I understand you wouldn't want players altering their aspects whenever it suits them to get an unfair advantage in-game. A werewolf walks in the room and suddenly you've got the "I Kill Werewolves" aspect. Avoiding that is good. But if that sort of thing obviously isn't what you're going for, why is the game stopping you from making the story better?
Even going by the rules you can probably retroactively switch out two aspects. We've hit two milestones.
I was not aware that you just wanted to change aspects though. Otherwise I would not have spent over an hour coming up with the list up there ^^^. :/
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Bluntly, this rule is silly. If you're playing with, say, four bad aspects that won't generate compels or won't come into play often enough to get invoked, it's ridiculous to make you waste milestone benefits on altering aspects and to wait something like ten sessions to fix everything.
Minor milestones are, by default, supposed to be happening at the end of any given 4-6-hour session. GMs can do what they like about spreading them out, especially if three sessions all cover the same 24-hour period. Most people don't actually NEED to change their skills around during a milestone, so Aspects can usually be targeted without worrying about wasting a Milestone.
Personally, before I was even giving my own players Milestones, I authorized an across-the-board character retooling to revisit Aspects, as well rote spells which had become broken once we developed a more clear understanding of the rules.
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What? No love for the Bear?
Hold your horses!
I am going to take this to mean you could use some help coming up with ways to use the ones you've got.
I obviously cannot answer the other game questions you've asked, so I will just start in on the aspect stuff.
This is just what I'm looking for. Some don't quite work due to character/history reasons, but a lot of that is just pure spun gold.
Others still fall within the category of compels that don't involve a character choice, and those still go over my head. Most of the compels under "The Authorities Like Me" are like that:
The Authorities Like Me
Compels:
- May be contacted to be a consultant on cases
- When law enforcement is around, they know who he is and he has to act proper
- He may want to lay off a case or walk away rather than risk his reputation
- Since the authorities like him, ruffians may not
- He could be fairly easily blackmailed since he plays both sides
- He may owe favors to cops that he cannot ignore
- Since he is so well known, people could go to him for help
- It could be awkward if he were seen with certain kinds of people
- Every agency in town probably has his fingerprints on record
- Me may have authorities looking for him fairly often
- Some authorities may like him since he could be a convenient fall guy
Acting proper around the authorities and walking away from a case both leave him a choice, and maybe favors for cops or people going to him for help too. But the rest of them involve player choice only, at best.
Let me take as an example that he "may have authorities looking for him fairly often." I figure this is the sort of game where that's going to happen one way or another, whether or not I have that aspect. So if the cops show up at my door and the GM proffers a fate point, asking me if maybe I've got a handgun in plain sight, I take the fate point and say I do or I hand over a fate point of mine and say no. I understand that. But if the cops show up and knock under similarly awkward circumstances (or they're just straight up here to arrest me), do I push for a fate point, claiming that as a compel? This is my primary sticking point. Because trouble is going to happen to the PCs all the time, just as a natural part of pretty much any roleplaying game. Where does it stop being just story and start being a compel?
Take this compel, from Marty's High Concept Aspect: "You have to play nice with terrible people - can't offend contacts." That's perfect. So in the game, Marty finds himself in the vicinity of a horrible crime scene and a violent criminal who's also Marty's client. Sirens are approaching. Could the fact that Marty stuck around, calmed the gangster down, and talked to the cops for him have garnered me a fate point? Could I have claimed one even if Marty ran, because he was involved anyhow and the cops were coming? It obviously would have complicated his life one way or another.
What I'm asking is at what point do things like that, that were frankly going to happen anyway, stop being just story and start being compels worthy of a fate point?
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Even going by the rules you can probably retroactively switch out two aspects. We've hit two milestones.
I was not aware that you just wanted to change aspects though. Otherwise I would not have spent over an hour coming up with the list up there ^^^. :/
I used the second milestone's minor benefits to trade out a point of refresh for a new stunt, but I guess I'd have one retroactively. I still don't see any reason for the limitation, or at least not one that couldn't be solved by a sentence in the book reading something like, "Just don't switch aspects because you decided you suddenly wanted an advantage or an opportunity for a compel."
But no, I don't just want to change aspects at all. Ideally I'd keep these; your list is ridiculously helpful. But I still don't understand how the no-character-choice compels function, or even how they'd be defined.
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Personally, before I was even giving my own players Milestones, I authorized an across-the-board character retooling to revisit Aspects, as well rote spells which had become broken once we developed a more clear understanding of the rules.
That's pretty much what I'm looking for. I'd misremembered minor milestones as being once every few sessions. Being able to alter an aspect every session(-ish) isn't too bad.
Have you dealt with what the book calls "GM-driven compels" or "scene-starter" compels on YS101-102? Those are still baking my noodle.
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What I'm asking is at what point do things like that, that were frankly going to happen anyway, stop being just story and start being compels worthy of a fate point?
Yeah, I kind of have the same issue, since I just sort of RP along with Gloria's aspects, for the most part. Since she comes "From The Wrong Side of the Tracks," she doesn't trust the authorities. But, that's how I play her, anyway. That's why she pointlessly tried to do first aid, instead of calling 911, after the explosion, during the last session. Should I have declared that, in some way?
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I used the second milestone's minor benefits to trade out a point of refresh for a new stunt, but I guess I'd have one retroactively. I still don't see any reason for the limitation, or at least not one that couldn't be solved by a sentence in the book reading something like, "Just don't switch aspects because you decided you suddenly wanted an advantage or an opportunity for a compel."
But no, I don't just want to change aspects at all. Ideally I'd keep these; your list is ridiculously helpful. But I still don't understand how the no-character-choice compels function, or even how they'd be defined.
Ideally, whenever a character is pushed into something or forced to act a certain way he should get a fate point.
In the aspect suggestions that you said did not have a choice, there is still a choice there. For instance, if someone came looking for Marty, you could hide.
The problem is that with the kind of campaign we are in and the number of people we have, individual characters get a whole hell of a lot less opportunity to influence the story by themselves. That is the nature of the beast.
A lot of how this issue is resolved comes down to how Ren wants to play it. For instance, if Ethan got a compel to rescue a woman while everyone else was going on an investigation, he could take a compel to help her and leave the group. It would be more difficult to run the campaign this way, but if we have backup GMs or even guest GMs, that plan becomes more feasible.
I think that we're the only serious Dresden group in the Austin area. There are little groups here and there I am sure, but we're probably one of the more mature and "professional" if you will. If we were willing to take on more people, I guarantee that we could double our numbers easily.
Anyway, I guess what I am saying is that there is no easy answer.
If I run a session or two, I plan on doing less of a story-driven campaign and playing things by ear a bit more. By doing so, the plot won't have as many WTF! moments and intricate storyline of the one we're currently playing, but I would be able to do a lot more compels.
It's the nature of the beast - there's a certain element of tradeoff. With 8 people, it's just not possible for the GM to keep the cohesion of the story and simultaneously let us do what we want to do.
I mean - take for example when Mike and Ethan went to the wererats bar. Ethan wanted to use magic to listen in, but there were rats conveniently everywhere Ethan could try to go to listen, blocking him off.
At that point I could have veiled myself and gone anyway, but doing so may have been blocked some other way or messed up the story for everyone else.
I had no choice but to retreat. In retrospect, I probably should have gotten a fate token for that.
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Have you dealt with what the book calls "GM-driven compels" or "scene-starter" compels on YS101-102? Those are still baking my noodle.
I do them all the time. Sometimes I do a "blind compel" and let a player know which Aspect I'm compelling. Sometimes I do a non-Aspected basic complication Compel, simply as a bribe for plunging the players into a sub-optimal situation. When I feel it's alright to admit the danger coming up, I tell them what is basically going to happen, one way or another, in the next scene or two. If the player lets it happen now, its a Compel and a Fate Point, but if they'd rather deal with it after this Scene, or negotiate to diminish its impact, then they have to buy out of the Compel.
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I do them all the time. Sometimes I do a "blind compel" and let a player know which Aspect I'm compelling. Sometimes I do a non-Aspected basic complication Compel, simply as a bribe for plunging the players into a sub-optimal situation. When I feel it's alright to admit the danger coming up, I tell them what is basically going to happen, one way or another, in the next scene or two. If the player lets it happen now, its a Compel and a Fate Point, but if they'd rather deal with it after this Scene, or negotiate to diminish its impact, then they have to buy out of the Compel.
If I started getting compels that regularly, I think I'd be so happy I'd start rolling around in fate chips naked.
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If I started getting compels that regularly, I think I'd be so happy I'd start rolling around in fat chips naked.
My players tend to have between 2 and 5 Fate Point chips in front of them at any given time, except one who rolls terribly, and tends to spend them as soon as he gets them.
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My players tend to have between 2 and 5 Fate Point chips in front of them at any given time, except one who rolls terribly, and tends to spend them as soon as he gets them.
I usually have two or three in front of me, but that's due to RL bonuses I get like wearing costumes. Then once the session starts, I don't use any until the last fight of the session usually.
Once we start getting compels more often, I will probably be using them a lot for alertness checks.
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In the aspect suggestions that you said did not have a choice, there is still a choice there. For instance, if someone came looking for Marty, you could hide.
Take this one for example, then: He could be fairly easily blackmailed since he plays both sides. If there is a choice involved here, it is definitely on the metagame level. The player can maybe opt out of being blackmailed, but as the book points out, it's kind of lame just to shoot down some story bits. The only options I see on the character level still involve his life getting seriously complicated, which is still compel-worthy. And even on the meta level, the difference between what's a compel and what's just story is hazy at best.
Sorry, I've got more to say, but have to run off to work.
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I don't think there's a need to differentiate between Compels that are about what the character does and those about what the Character is. Compels are always between player and GM, even when the GM is compelling a character behavior. Compels that present Characters with complicated situations based on their Aspects can be an awesome driver of the story. And yes, the player has the option of buying them off. Is it lame to buy off a compel like the one you present about being blackmailed? Sometimes. But Compels are where Fate GMs share story control with the players. Is that always easy and flawlessly executed? No. Do players and GMs sometimes have different ideas about where the fun lies? Sure. Sometimes you throw out a Compel and it fizzles, so you move on to the next one until something pops. But the question in my mind is if everyone agrees that it is truly lame to buy off the Compel, why is the player buying it off?
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Those last couple bring up a question I have about aspects. The book suggests, in the "GM-driven compels" section on YS101-102, that sometimes there will be plot complication compels that don't really involve character choices. The example given is that the PC's brother shows up beaten and bloody on the PC's doorstep. Being a compel, there is a PLAYER choice involved--the example has the player spend a fate point to avoid the compel and call an ambulance to go deal with more pressing matters. But how often does a situation like this crop up in someone's game not in the form of a compel? Dramatic things happen constantly in games, and I'd think it would feel strange to present them in the form of compels. In other words, I'm not quite understanding how one would utilize compels that don't involve character choice. Here's a fate point to get your character to do something appropriately stupid makes sense, but here's a fate point for something to happen TO you doesn't to me. Anybody have experience doing things this way? And if so, how do you distinguish between compels of this sort and story-driven drama at the table?
Well, like I gave an example, a guy's enemy of the police force is in charge of a crime scene or case would be their ASPECT making life more difficult. The character doesn't make that happen with a choice and probably can't get that undone by any action (not easily anyhow). There's a player choice there potentially where he can say "no, I don't like that" (which can easily be lame, mind you), or say "serendipity means this isn't a problem this time around...he just doesn't see me."
This isn't simply dramatic stuff, it is things that make a character's life more difficult (and should make a player's life at the table more fun). If someone is trying to kill the character because they are his arch-nemesis, then that's making his life more difficult. Yeah, maybe you don't have a session planned out without this guy going after the character, but that makes it all the bigger of a compel. (That's the sort of compel a player should always accept). This is one reason why a player should be very happy with all of their aspects and how they can be compelled. It is very important that these compels are things they want to see as part of the game story. Ideally, from what I gather of the system, players should be negotiating exactly how to implement a compel a lot, lot, lot more often than buying out of a compel.
If the player in your OP isn't happy being a shady criminal with the difficulties that entails, for instance, then he should probably be a bit redesigned so he doesn't have to deal with compels along those lines (of course, the character might find it really annoying). Similarly, if we look at Harry as a character, his player should be quite happy with all the compels he gets to shoot his mouth off to annoy people...because that should be the sort of thing the player wants to see and deal with. Similarly, we could imagine Harry with an aspect "Queen Mab is interested in me" later on, and that would mean the player WANTS to deal with the difficulties that entails (and he'll get fate points for those difficulties coming up, even if they are the basis of a session or story-arc).
If a player is often buying out of difficulties from a particular aspect, that's probably a sign they actually don't like it. Someone trying to play a Harry-like character might just enjoy keeping his tongue in check a lot in an actual game, or maybe just prefers blowing Winter to smithereens rather than having deals with them. When something like that comes up, it is a good idea to sit down with the player, look at those aspects, and figure out what they might be replaced with that he would enjoy.
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I don't think there's a need to differentiate between Compels that are about what the character does and those about what the Character is. Compels are always between player and GM, even when the GM is compelling a character behavior. Compels that present Characters with complicated situations based on their Aspects can be an awesome driver of the story. And yes, the player has the option of buying them off. Is it lame to buy off a compel like the one you present about being blackmailed? Sometimes. But Compels are where Fate GMs share story control with the players. Is that always easy and flawlessly executed? No. Do players and GMs sometimes have different ideas about where the fun lies? Sure. Sometimes you throw out a Compel and it fizzles, so you move on to the next one until something pops. But the question in my mind is if everyone agrees that it is truly lame to buy off the Compel, why is the player buying it off?
OK. With you so far. I don't actually have too much a problem with this side of the metagamed compel equation. If we're using this sort of compel in the game, I can be offered a fate point by the GM to accept a situation (or we can negotiate it). But what still gets me is the realm of self compels. If I see a story-related dilemma pop up that looks like a consequence of my character's defining points, in other words one of his aspects, do I push for a fate point? That just seems weird to me, and I don't see myself doing it. Should I be?
If some bruisers show up, sent by someone I pissed off last session because of my Smart Mouth aspect, do I try to claim it as a compel? Do you GMs out there run things like that, or would that annoy you?
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If a player is often buying out of difficulties from a particular aspect, that's probably a sign they actually don't like it. Someone trying to play a Harry-like character might just enjoy keeping his tongue in check a lot in an actual game, or maybe just prefers blowing Winter to smithereens rather than having deals with them. When something like that comes up, it is a good idea to sit down with the player, look at those aspects, and figure out what they might be replaced with that he would enjoy.
Negotiation sounds all right, and I'm fine with the intent of the character's aspects. I love getting him into those types of trouble. I'm mostly just trying to make sure the aspects function well for that, which is where I run into confusion regarding the metagame compels and especially self-compels regarding same. (See my last post above.)
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Negotiation sounds all right, and I'm fine with the intent of the character's aspects. I love getting him into those types of trouble. I'm mostly just trying to make sure the aspects function well for that, which is where I run into confusion regarding the metagame compels and especially self-compels regarding same. (See my last post above.)
Technically, all compels are metagame compels. A player can roleplay it as an inner conflict, but ultimately it is about what the player wants to have happen in all cases. I'm not sure you should make a big distinction between various compel types in this manner. The whole system is meant to be viewed from a meta-game perspective. It's kind of like playing a game of Universalis where each person has special rights to a character (and there's also a GM) -- err, assuming you've ever played that game. In any case, the system is designed so that the humans playing have a lot of ability to make the story go where they want or at least HOW they want. That's what it is most adept at by far, imho.
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If some bruisers show up, sent by someone I pissed off last session because of my Smart Mouth aspect, do I try to claim it as a compel? Do you GMs out there run things like that, or would that annoy you?
If I'd already been paid for the Smart Mouth aspect when I pissed off that person last session, I wouldn't angle for another Fate when the bruisers show up. If bruisers show up because of some person I pissed off in my back story, I'm holding my hand out. I may not get paid, but that shit is a compel.
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As a new GM, I'm happy to see this thread. I don't use FATE points enough, I think. I'd rather start erring on too much/too generous.
Last game a person with "feeds stray animals" approached a guard dog with beef jerky; went well, but could have been dangerous, so that should have been worth a FATE point.
Dian