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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Drachasor on February 11, 2011, 10:31:09 AM

Title: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: Drachasor on February 11, 2011, 10:31:09 AM
So I was thinking about how to stop hexing, and was wondering what the thoughts of others were.  The purposes of this could range from taking a plane ride to using a computer (when not in use, you turn off, unplug, and seal the computer in a magic circle to block energies).

Thematically, one would think a small 2 or 3 shift block would stop normal hexing while it was up (e.g. allow the use of technology), since random leakings aren't high-powered.  Obviously that wouldn't stop the effects if you get really emotional about something.  Rules-wise though, that's a bit less clear since hexing (the non-helpful kind) is done by compels.

Only way to stop compels, I think, would be a magic maneuver on yourself.  Say something like "My Magic is Sealed" and then you Invoke for Effect that so that for the duration of the maneuver you can't use magic (which might count as a compel depending on what comes up*).  Bit more pricey** to go that way, though doing "I can't Hex!" as a maneuver seems like dirty pool.

In either case, probably the best way to do this for a long trip would be to have a magical item do the effect since extending the duration longer than a scene means you can keep it up indefinitely (though it costs you 1 mental stress each "scene"...though I guess some might think THAT is cheap too).

So does this sound reasonable to anyone or should stopping accidental hexing be strictly a matter of fate points spent to resist compels?

*Interesting question here.  If something starts simply as an Invocation for Effect.  You are going on a plane, so you make it so you can't use magic.  No compel there inherently since you might not need any magic.  While on the plane, some monster attacks, like a Vampire of some sort.  Seems like the compel is already there, so at that point you could choose to accept a Fate Point from the self-compel or, somewhat amusingly, buy out of your self-compel by spending a Fate Point at which point the magic block would be broken.  Thoughts?

**Not in shifts, but in loss of ability.
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: EldritchFire on February 11, 2011, 12:17:19 PM
In one of the books, Harry was being interviewed on TV, and had built a "ward" around himself to contain his magics. However, he had to constantly concentrate on it, and even then, when surprised he accidently dropped the ward long enough to fry a camera or two.

So in the Dresdenverse it is possible...Heck, when Harry takes on an apprentice they ward themselves when watching TV with the family...and a lot of preventative maintenance on the rest of the house.

Possible? Totally. Difficult? As hell! I can't imagine a wizard putting that many lives at risk just to ride an airplane. One slip of the mind, and the entire plane could come falling out of the sky. After one or two accidents like that, your wizard is now on the no-fly list and a suspected terrorist. How else do you explain how s/he survived that many plane crashes? What about their other sordid activities? Secret meetings with cloaked figures, superstitious doodads in their house/apartment, etc?

tl; dr version:

For small things like computers, it's possible, but bigger things like airplanes are a "no-fly zone."

-EF
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: deathwombat on February 11, 2011, 12:20:27 PM
Using magic to avoid hexing caused by magic
Hrrmmmmmmm
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: BumblingBear on February 11, 2011, 12:23:29 PM
I think the more refined the wizard the easier it would be.

For a wizard who has sponsored magic, it would be substantially easier.

First, sponsored magic does not affect electronics.

Second, a hold-the-magic-in-bubble could be cast on the spot.
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: toturi on February 11, 2011, 01:41:47 PM
Only way to stop compels, I think, would be a magic maneuver on yourself.  Say something like "My Magic is Sealed" and then you Invoke for Effect that so that for the duration of the maneuver you can't use magic (which might count as a compel depending on what comes up*).  Bit more pricey** to go that way, though doing "I can't Hex!" as a maneuver seems like dirty pool.

So does this sound reasonable to anyone or should stopping accidental hexing be strictly a matter of fate points spent to resist compels?
I think that such maneuvers would at best be temporary. The aspect the maneuver places on the character compels him NOT to hex and then he uses that Fate Point to pay off the compel to hex. But the point here is that it is temporary, he needs to keep at it, constantly maneuvering to place that Aspect on himself. The GM could escalate the compel to hex though, perhaps if he loses his calm or something similar.
I think it is better if the GM and player work it out. Maybe the player wants to play a wizard but doesn't want to deal with the hassles of being compelled to accidentally hex, so he has an Aspect like "tech friendly". Which in effect he sacrifices an Aspect slot to counter the hexing compel. Or maybe he can have an Aspect that is self-contradictory "tech friendly wizard" - he is compelled to be tech friendly as well as being compelled to hex both from the same Aspect. I think the main drawback to note (which has been pointed out) is that he is likely to have trouble hexing deliberately.
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: deathwombat on February 12, 2011, 05:17:36 AM
Sponsored magic alone is not a wizard
Wizard plus sponsored magic. Scary.
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: Drachasor on February 12, 2011, 05:39:49 AM
Using magic to avoid hexing caused by magic
Hrrmmmmmmm

Going by the theory in the book, it is basically uncontrolled magical energies that cause hexing.  A careful ritual or the like would be highly controlled magic designed to stop the uncontrolled leakage in one way or another.  Either going with a highly selective route if allowed "I can't hex" or something like "My magic is sealed" if one was using aspects.  The latter method would make the character unable to access any magic if invoked for effect (which might eventually become a compel).  In gaming terms if the GM is ok with the concept of making oneself tech-safe, then they'd just need to decide how hard it was.

In the books, Harry has great difficulty doing this, but he's trying to control his magic impulses with an evocation-like spell it seems.  He has a lot of trouble doing that, but it also isn't something completely sealing away his magic like one of the methods I proposed.  Harry probably wouldn't ever do that given how many things are out to kill him and how vulnerable he is without magic.  Though, there are ways to look at what Harry does.  One, his magic ward was just him spending fate points to not Hex and a nice GM (or not fate points and the GM just decides to make it a prolonged compel for funsies).  Eventually the GM upped the stakes and Harry decided to grab 2 or more fate points by letting his anger loose.  Alternatively, one could look at it as a small ward/block against him doing magic, stopping excess energies from flowing (and him paying many exchanges for it...though social exchanges last a lot longer than combat ones, I'd think).  Eventually the GM offers a compel for him to stop doing it, and he takes it.  I think those are the best ways in-game to view it.

Edit:  I like testing the forums out before talking to my GM about something.  Conversations are more focused and there's less bugging that way.  This does relate to my character who's an archaeologist so I am sort of seeing what the forum thoughts are avoiding hexing.
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: devonapple on February 12, 2011, 07:32:09 PM
Another option is that Harry was going to "lose" the Social Conflict that was going on, and this was part of his Concession. Or he took Consequences during the Social Conflict which targeted his calming ritual.
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: Drachasor on February 12, 2011, 11:12:22 PM
Another option is that Harry was going to "lose" the Social Conflict that was going on, and this was part of his Concession. Or he took Consequences during the Social Conflict which targeted his calming ritual.

Oh yes, quite right.  Harry is not very adept at social conflicts.  (Speaking of which, neither is my archaeologist.  Having a bit of magic, higher education, and being the Son of Thor take up a lot of skills).  For what it is worth, good people, my character only current has access to Thaumaturgy.  Eventually (e.g. theoretically) I think he'll get full wizard abilities, but that's a long, long way off.  He's kind of a warrior-scholar.  Anyhow, he has dig sites to go to (not during game time, typically), so it's planes or the Nevernever, pretty much.  (Though, I don't think my particular character is supremely relevant to the discussion...I like my conversations as abstract as possible).

I thought totally binding one's magic would certainly be fair (on the extreme end of things).  You could easily make a ritual that bound it for a day (or even have a magic item devoted to this purpose) if you accept an invoke for effect lasting until the maneuver ended.  I mean, that's a pretty significant penalty and we could easily see why Harry would never even try something like that.  Hmm, people don't seem like that though.
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: Drachasor on February 12, 2011, 11:13:26 PM
I think the more refined the wizard the easier it would be.

For a wizard who has sponsored magic, it would be substantially easier.

First, sponsored magic does not affect electronics.

Second, a hold-the-magic-in-bubble could be cast on the spot.

Imho, sponsored magic would affect Electronics.  It's still driven by the will of the person using the magic and it is conflicted will that causes accidental hexing.  That said, it's up to each gaming group, of course.
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: BumblingBear on February 12, 2011, 11:31:10 PM
Imho, sponsored magic would affect Electronics.  It's still driven by the will of the person using the magic and it is conflicted will that causes accidental hexing.  That said, it's up to each gaming group, of course.

It's canon that sponsored magic does not affect electronics.  Both the SK and the WK both can and do use modern electronics.
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: Drachasor on February 12, 2011, 11:35:37 PM
It's canon that sponsored magic does not affect electronics.  Both the SK and the WK both can and do use modern electronics.

Ahh, yeah, I guess you got a point there.  Lucky sods.
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: bibliophile20 on February 13, 2011, 04:43:43 PM
One thing my wizard and photomancer had designed early one were "hex-orption bracelets", minor enchanted items that acted as a block against random hexing; I basically treated it as a reduction of the strength of their normal "hex-aura" by a factor of the Strength of the item.  Past a certain point for the wizard, it stopped making a practical difference for most cutting edge tech, and he ditched his a while back.
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: Drachasor on February 13, 2011, 06:09:18 PM
One thing my wizard and photomancer had designed early one were "hex-orption bracelets", minor enchanted items that acted as a block against random hexing; I basically treated it as a reduction of the strength of their normal "hex-aura" by a factor of the Strength of the item.  Past a certain point for the wizard, it stopped making a practical difference for most cutting edge tech, and he ditched his a while back.

Hmm, do you mean that you used the Deliberate Hexing table for this?  Would a Strength 4 item stop hexing for things that are 5+ on the chart (e.g. counting up from the bottom)?  Or did you do it some other way?
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: bibliophile20 on February 13, 2011, 06:46:49 PM
Hmm, do you mean that you used the Deliberate Hexing table for this?  Would a Strength 4 item stop hexing for things that are 5+ on the chart (e.g. counting up from the bottom)?  Or did you do it some other way?
Basically, it was almost a plot device item that allowed them to safely be in the same area as working mortal technology for a longer period of time before the fiddly-bits started to fry.  More or less an excuse so they wouldn't walk down the street and kill all of the smartphones, iPods and laptops that they walked past, and could give someone enough time to shut down the electronics in question. 

To be honest, that was something from early on, when we were all still learning out way around the system; I don't know if I'd allow it these days. 
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: jadecourtflunky on February 13, 2011, 07:00:50 PM
It's canon that sponsored magic does not affect electronics.  Both the SK and the WK both can and do use modern electronics.
Actually, in the books, they point out that it's the fact that humans have free will and are conflicted that makes hexing happen. Faeries are unchanging and direct: their magic doesn't spill over at all. So, a human using sponsored magic still hexes stuff.
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: sinker on February 13, 2011, 07:26:26 PM
The books don't present a unified mechanic. As bear pointed out the summer knight who must be mortal (being half fey doesn't count. He chose mortal so he could be the summer knight) and definitely has sponsored magic has used modern tech in the books.

Anyway I keep saying likely the best way to resist the hexing with one's own personal devices is to use water cooled devices (or devices designed with a current of water running around and/or throughout).
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: HobbitGuy1420 on February 13, 2011, 08:22:21 PM
Er, forgive me... When has Fix used a computer or similar modern tech since he became summer knight? 

I don't doubt that he has, but I'd like a reminder of the circumstances.
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: Drachasor on February 13, 2011, 09:30:40 PM
Er, forgive me... When has Fix used a computer or similar modern tech since he became summer knight? 

I don't doubt that he has, but I'd like a reminder of the circumstances.

Hmm, I thought Ruel's apartment had tech in it, but I reread the scene and it didn't.  Now I don't know where anyone with sponsored magic having technology is.  Anyone else remember?
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: Richard_Chilton on February 13, 2011, 11:04:31 PM
A short story called "Last Call" had someone who was either from the nevernever or had sponsored magic (I'm not sure how she would be treated in game terms since I'm pretty sure she started out mortal).

I don't want to give spoilers so I'll leave it at:
When Harry learned that she paid for something with a credit card he knew that she wasn't using mortal magic (because another with the power to do what she did wouldn't be able to use something with a magnetic strip - at least not reliably).

Richard
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: HobbitGuy1420 on February 13, 2011, 11:36:17 PM
(click to show/hide)
may have once been human, but by the time of the story, she wasn't human anymore. If I recall correctly, it says in-story that
(click to show/hide)
. That, plus her power, indicates to me that she is closer in makeup to a spirit or god than to a human.
Title: Re: Holding Back the Hexing
Post by: Richard_Chilton on February 14, 2011, 12:15:23 AM
Re-reading things I'm tempted to say
(click to show/hide)

All which means that she's probably not using sponsored magic, which means that she's not a working example of this thread....

Hmmm... Sigrun Gard has sponsored magic and doesn't seem to have to worry about being around helicopters and other high tech stuff, but then again there's a debate over whether she is mortal, a scion, or something more closely linked to the gods. 
(click to show/hide)

Richard