akishic (sp) recordAkashic?
hmm let me try to be more specific. Sorry for not being as direct as I could be.So you are creating a Sponsored Magic that functions for other prefix-mancy in the same way Kemmlerian Necromancy works for necromancy? Is this what you are saying?
I see kemmierian necro has more of a specialization, and not having a big sponsor. I figure using the example kemmierian necromancy it seems likely that anyone can create a "sponsored magic" that allows a wizard to further specialize in a field of tham. I also think it would be possible to make these types of specialization without becoming a lawbreaker.
# Access to Rituals for the sponsor’s theme [1] # Access to Channeling for sponsor’s element [1]
My only concern with adding these two to the list is unless I'm mistaken all forms of sponsored magic have them. which throws of the math. i suppose if for some reason you didn't want this you might get a rebate of some kind.
@ Devonapple, no worries on editing, i am admittedly horrible at spelling and grammer.
[edit] It occurs to me that i did not explicitly mention the standard base cost of four with rebate if you have evocation or channeling. just to be completely safe i assumed it didn't need to be said.
Am I missing something? Because it seems to me that that system has pretty much all Sponsored Magic at [-4] before counting bonus powers. And that can't be right.
PS: There should be a type of Sponsored Magic that allows you to make functioning technology with conjuration.
i can go through and show the breakdown for each of the sponsored magics in the book using that math if you'd like.
I'd be happy to show those examples in the edited writeup.Be my guest. i do patterns and math, not presentation.
From the Norse Pantheon: Hel, daughter of Loki, sister of Fenris and Jörmungandr, ruler of Hel, the afterlife of Norse who died of sickness and infirmity, and is described in some works as being half beautiful maiden and half dead. I have an Emissary of hers that I've been working on (an infectious disease doctor who made a bargain to stave off death) and I've been debating on how to stat up her Sponsored Magic for him.
Just a quick correction. Hellfire gives +1 power and complexity to any spell that is intended to inflict stress or conseqences. It does not give control and the fluff text says "hellfire likes to inflict pain and harm, but isn't particularly concerned about being controlled".
I still don't like those breakdowns
If you build the benefits of the sponsored magic so that they don't overlap (instead of merely complementing), you shouldn't give the discount.
can you give specific examples of ones you dont like and why?
Seelie magic:
Sponsor debt - freebie
Element for Evocation with summer-like feel - 1 point
Thaumaturgy along summers themes - 1 point
partial catch for unseelie fae - 1 point
Biomancy at speed and methods of evocation - 1 point
Notice that interpreted this way, the power rebate actually makes sense, rather than just giving away points for nothing. Its also fairly in line with non-sponsored magic costs, although still a little more powerful.
Unseelie magic:
Sponsor debt - freebie
Element for Evocation with winter-like feel - 1 point
Thaumaturgy along winters themes - 1 point
partial catch for seelie fae - 1 point
Entropomancy at speeds and methods of evocation - 1 point
Kemmlerian Necromancy:
Sponsor debt - freebie
+1 control/complexity in necromancy - 1 point
necromantic and! psychomantic effects at speed and methods of evocation - 1 point
control bonuses from necromancy can be used in evocations - freebie!
The control bonuses for necromancy make this one much more powerful and easily abusable than the other sponsored magics. My guess is that the developers put in in there because it makes sense to let the thaumaturgy bonuses be used with the 'speed and methods of evocation' powers that come with the ability, but it created a broken ability by accident. OR, they gave this ability more power because it practically requires lawbreaker to use. +1 control/complexity is equivalent to a point of refinement. Necromantic and psychomantic effects at speed of evocation is a bit stronger than other sponsored magics, but oh well.
Kemmlerian Necromancy 4
*Bonus of +1 (power or control) and complexity to more than one type of magic (i.e., hellfire applying to any damaging spell) [2]
*Specific types of thaumaturgy at evocation speeds [1]
*The ability to use a specific thaumaturgical school's complexity bonus on evocations that fit the theme [1]
+1 control/complexity in necromancy - 1 point
vs
Bonus of +1 (power or control) and complexity to more than one type of magic (i.e., hellfire applying to any damaging spell) [2]
necromantic and! psychomantic effects at speed and methods of evocation - 1 point
vs
Specific types of thaumaturgy at evocation speeds [1]
control bonuses from necromancy can be used in evocations - freebie!
vs
*The ability to use a specific thaumaturgical school's complexity bonus on evocations that fit the theme [1]
You've got evocation and thaumaturgy already? Well, that discounts your sponsored magic by two refresh - and, incidentally, removes the normal four focus item slots granted by sponsored magic. What's the normal price tag on four focus item slots? Two refresh.
What is the final consensus on how to break down Sponsored Magic?
There isn't a consensus. Same as for about a dozen other important questions for the Dresden Files system. There are multiple valid points of view that you can choose from.
Therefore, I'm inclined to turn to wyvern's idea that we count the Focus Item slots as the 1-2 Refresh which get removed if you already have Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy.
Can you change the mock up to reflect this so we can see if people still have objections? Im a fan of iteration until consensus.
In lieu of creating a new thread, if you cast Thaumaturgy at Evocation speeds, do you still take mental stress like you do with any other Evocation or does your sponsor take care of that? Seems to me that you would, because you're channeling that power through you and mixing it with your own.
The reason I ask is, a friend of mine who runs a local game mentioned one of his wizard players with sponsored magic cast something like a 26 shift spell thaumturgy spell as an evocation and it really just didn't sound kosher to me.
In lieu of creating a new thread, if you cast Thaumaturgy at Evocation speeds, do you still take mental stress like you do with any other Evocation or does your sponsor take care of that? Seems to me that you would, because you're channeling that power through you and mixing it with your own.
The reason I ask is, a friend of mine who runs a local game mentioned one of his wizard players with sponsored magic cast something like a 26 shift spell thaumturgy spell as an evocation and it really just didn't sound kosher to me.
But yeah, pull something like that off, and the character is likely shortly off to become an NPC or somewhat... less alive. One way or the other.
"Hello, human. You owe us some favors. We want Los Angeles, California reclaimed by forest and The Netherlands reclaimed by the ocean - like nature would have had it if not for those dikes they built. We're not entirely unreasonable; you have a month in which to accomplish this. Oh, and should you fail... well, there'll be consequences."
I feel *compelled* to add that for some pcs thats not an unreasonable task, and would likely be finished with days to spare.
This is true. However, bear in mind this is a Wizard. If he uses magic to accomplish this, there's a shortening experience in stock for him in the not-too-distant future, courtesy of our gray-cloaked friends with Big Shiny Swords.
Any Wizard trying something like that would be crushed by White Council politics. The Wardens would be called in to restrain him and if there was no justification for them to do so then the Blackstaff would take care of things.
At least that's my take on things.
Richard
I'd modify that to "a law of magic" rather than just the first one. After all, it probably take mind control to get everyone to leave LA.
Richard
There's no way you could get everyone out of Holland without mind magic.
The exercise of power and the necessity to consider the fallout from your actions isn't something limited to wizards and gods. Fictional people like Harry and Molly just provide more colorful examples.
As for violating the laws of magic themselves turning you good or evil, well. Smiley There's something to be said on either side of the argument, in the strictest sense, though one side of the argument is definitely less incorrect than the other. But it's going to take me several more books to lay it out, so there's no sense in ruining the fun. Smiley
Sponsor debts are pretty harsh, though, if the GM decides to get a little nasty.
So, this Seelie-sponsored wizard is taking a stroll in the park, feeling smug after his excessively overpowered insta-spell, when Eldest Gruff taps him on the shoulder...
"Hello, human. You owe us some favors. We want Los Angeles, California reclaimed by forest and The Netherlands reclaimed by the ocean - like nature would have had it if not for those dikes they built. We're not entirely unreasonable; you have a month in which to accomplish this. Oh, and should you fail... well, there'll be consequences."
GMs should not rely on a player’s particular response to this kind of compel to drive a plot— remember, the purpose of a compel is to create drama, not force people into things. Keep in mind that a player can always negotiate the terms of a compel—he might have an even better idea for a dramatic way to start a scene or move the story along.
Example: Thomas has an aspect for his family: Fallen Prince of the Raith Family. This means he’s a liability for his house and his father is continually trying to find ways for other people to kill Thomas for him. The Red Court is going to be throwing a lavish ball at the Velvet Room, and Lord Raith has sent Thomas a “note” letting him know that Thomas is expected to attend. The GM suggests that this is a compel based on Thomas’ Fallen Prince aspect, because his status in the family doesn’t leave him many choices. Thomas’ player, Clark, accepts and the GM gives him a fate point.
There are at least two ways Clark can fulfill the terms of this compel. Thomas can take the easier but possibly deadly choice of attending the Red Court ball, or he can defy Lord Raith, which would take the story in a very different direction—in that case, Lord Raith would come after him with intensity and fury. If he was taken by Lord Raith’s servants, he would have to answer dearly for his defiance...
Im completely being devils advocate here. Which law is broken by a spell that destroys the dykes, or causes a forest to spring up overnight? While both will probably kill people neither will as a direct act of the magic take a mortal life. its the secondary effects. like using magic to light a house on fire and then walking away. The people in it die, but not from your spell.
I think that's beyond the reach of a proper compel. While a compel can have consequences lasting beyond the scene, it strikes me as unseemly and unfair for a compel to force such a long-term and complicated operation on someone.
Consider (102 OS):
To me the compel here would simply be these entities WANTING you to do this. That complicates one's life and you have to deal with them bugging you until you get them to stop. A compel can't making you go and destroy a whole bunch of stuff over a long span of time.
Again from the same section in OS:
A proper compel should have a very immediate effect that complicates one's life. They don't dictate how you react to that complication at all.
He suspects that Krampus ([url[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krampus[/url] and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companions_of_Saint_Nicholas#Krampus) was once a human emissary who fell too deeply into debt and was transformed into creature
Let me clarify something; related to Bobjob's question. The 26-shift Spell was in my game and was an Evocation not Thaumaturgy, though sponsored magic was involved. I'd like to break this down further in light of our last session where a 39-shift attack was pulled off by the same character. I'm going to break it down here because something doesn't seem right about it and as it has currently caused a huge rift in our game right now and is currently costing 2 players out of eight I'd like to get it clarified so we can see if this can be prevented in the future as a 39-shift hit absolutely destroys my ability to produce challenging opponents that won't kill the mostly-mortal characters by sneezing!
So here's the breakdown, as far as I recall;
Shift 6 spell declared, well within the range of his conviction (+4) + focus item(s) to control and cast.
The roll nets him +2 for a total of +8
So Far One point of mental stress.
He takes 3 more mental stress voluntarily then takes a Mild Consequence to pay off 2 of those, thus another +3
total is now +11
With 2 mental Stress.
Tagged at least 4 separate aspects; two or so on himself and two or so others from other are tags available. So that's +8 more
Total is now +19
Used 4 points of Sponsor Magic for another +8
Total is now 27
Dropped 4 fate Points for another +8
Total is now 35!
2 Wool-gathering Maneuvers for the additional +4
So the total ended up at 39.
Mind you this is all before Dodge, Armor (which was ignored due to the attack hitting its natural weakness).
Even with an optimal dodge roll it could only subtract 8 from the hit, with taking one of every consequence in the book would only get it reduced by an additional 20 hits...so that's 11 Physical Stress after all is said and done, on average probably 15 stress. Double that particular target could take...
Is this right? It sounds horribly wrong but I don't know where the failure occurs. Should he have been taking a lot more stress? Should there have been fallout or a much more difficult roll? I'd want to get this clarified for future reference and so I can figure out how it can be fixed. Yes it was a one-shot deal for that scenario but it could be replicated and I don't want to have to deal with that every session.
I understand there will be later consequences form his sponsor, but that is a matter for another time, not to mention other RP consequences.
Shift 6 spell declared, well within the range of his conviction (+4) + focus item(s) to control and cast.
The roll nets him +2 for a total of +8
So Far One point of mental stress.
He takes 3 more mental stress voluntarily then takes a Mild Consequence to pay off 2 of those, thus another +3.
total is now +11
With 2 mental Stress
Tagged at least 4 separate aspects; two or so on himself and two or so others from other are tags available. So that's +8 more. Total is now +19
Used 4 points of Sponsor Magic for another +8. Total is now 27
Dropped 4 fate Points for another +8. Total is now 35!
2 Wool-gathering Maneuvers for the additional +4
So the total ended up at 39.
So here's the breakdown, as far as I recall;
Shift 6 spell declared, well within the range of his conviction (+4) + focus item(s) to control and cast.
The roll nets him +2 for a total of +8
He takes 3 more mental stress voluntarily then takes a Mild Consequence to pay off 2 of those, thus another +3
total is now +11
Tagged at least 4 separate aspects; two or so on himself and two or so others from other are tags available. So that's +8 more
Total is now +19
Used 4 points of Sponsor Magic for another +8
Total is now 27
Dropped 4 fate Points for another +8
Total is now 35!
2 Wool-gathering Maneuvers for the additional +4
So the total ended up at 39.
So here's the breakdown, as far as I recall;Power 6 Control 8 one mental stress All is well and good.
Shift 6 spell declared, well within the range of his conviction (+4) + focus item(s) to control and cast.
The roll nets him +2 for a total of +8
power increased by three. one mild consequence taken. Power 9 Control 8 Two mental stressMake sure he is aware that this is an increase to power not control.
Accepted one point of sponsor magic to invoke his high concept. Power 9 Control 10 Two mental stress, one mild consequence.Sticking to a one sponsor debt per spell will help keep the numbers down.
Used four fate points to tag his own aspects or other available ones in the scene. Power 9 Control 18 Two mental stress, one mild consequence, 4 fate pointsHonestly if hes got 4 fate points to burn on this spell i don't see it as a problem, finding aspects to use shouldn't be all that hard. I am curious as to how a caster has that many laying around though, i know i never have more then one.
2 Wool-gathering Maneuvers for the additional +4
So the total ended up at 39.
Took the first free tag of off 2 aspects created in this scene. Power 9 Control 22 Two mental stress, one mild consequence, 4 fate points, two tags previously set up by himself or other pcs.
2 of what he was aiming atIf he was targeting two separate targets he has to split the base power and assign shifts of control to each. so wed be looking at a power 4/5 control 11/11
He only targeted one. Though with those numbers he could have targeted the entire group of baddies and taken them out!
Note that it says full range of thaumaturgic effects in thaumaturgical application, not 'at evocation's speed and methods' as implied in your cost assessment above
in fact, in a strict reading, it has NO thaumaturgical effects at evocation's speed and methods
Well, Harry doesn't every (not even once) use Soulfire in the absence of conventional magic. (mystical rebar, as the book calls it)
Frankly, I don't think it even belongs in the Sponsored Magic section, given its nature, and the source of its fuel (it's SOULfire; by using it, you burn your own soul, not some energy provided by an external power)
It belongs as sponsored magic. Remember, sponsored magic doesn't need some being able to cut the strings (Kemmlerites are an example). Using and restoring your soul are handled by Debt pretty well.I think that would be better handled by taking consequences (possibly with the availability of soulfire granting additional consequences useable only for the purpose)
And Harry DOES make magical constructs with it, stuff he couldn't do otherwise. They even talk in the book about how Soulfire makes such things last longer than they otherwise would (say a scene instead of an exchange).
Kemmlerian Necromancy is similarly problematic, in that it is not actually sponsored by anyone or anything (from what we've seen in the novels). It is simply learned. It, similarly, is a questionable inclusion in the Sponsored Magic section.
The way I see it Sponsored Magic is it is a -2 Channeling and for -2 Ritual and the only reason that Soul Fire is any different is because it has the toughness reducing power which is a very nice addition, so as long as you don't add the toughness power then the default cost should be 4.
Now, if a type of sponsored magic doesn't lend itself to an agenda that could create complications for a character (such as the people who suggest that LTW has some sort of sponsored shapeshifting, or the Merlin has sponsored wards) then I would simply not let the user incur sponsor debt.
Though come to think of it, there are a lot of times that Harry and Eb bitch about the Merlin's unwillingness to take the offensive, so maybe his uberwarding skills do involve a sponsor debt.
ie. simply allow the 'shell game' of thaumaturgy-with-evocation's-speed-and-methods to create more varied focused practitioners and specialist wizards/sorcerers?Yep. I probably wouldn't allow it for starting PCs, but I can definitely see allowing senior wizards to have a specialty field of magic where they are just that slick. Of course, on second thought I'm not positive that you could be that good at something like magic, which is a function of belief and will, without changing your thinking somewhat (see below).
...THAT'd cause some political turmoil in the Council if it came to light...
Yep. I probably wouldn't allow it for starting PCs, but I can definitely see allowing senior wizards to have a specialty field of magic where they are just that slick. Of course, on second thought I'm not positive that you could be that good at something like magic, which is a function of belief and will, without changing your thinking somewhat (see below).
I actually think it's more useful (to the game), and more flavourful, to have it available particularly FOR starting PCs (or as the primary source of their magical talents, at least), allowing a much greater range of focused practitioners, rather than merely as a (relatively minor, at that point) boost in power for the folks at the top of their game
So if it was JUST channeling the cost would only be [-2]?
What *exactly do you want it to do ren? if literally the only thing you want is channeling for x element then just buy channeling.
Channeling [X] thaumaturgical grouping with evocation's speed and methods would be the most obvious benefit
ie. what the book calls the 'shell game'
What thaumaturgical stuff could you do with fire? Hmmm....
You could heat buildings, dry up water, control fires (which would Dresden would love to do), possible put out fires... Some systems of magic link the elements to certain types of spells - and in some of those fire can do healing (burning out the sickness). Maybe conjure Fire Elements from the Nevernever. You might be able to weave fire through spells like Dresden weaves Soulfire (to a lesser extent though). Build fire into wards. Make enchanted items that heat the area or toss flames. Tag nearby flames for bonuses.
These are off the top of my - I'm sure if someone really wanted to go looking that they could find 101 thaumaturgical uses for fire.
Richard
I was using just Channeling as a zero-level to determine the actual cost of sponsored magic itself, which is apparently
* ?
Where is the 'standard package' detailed? I've looked in the supernatural powers and spellcasting section, but I can't find it. I'm wondering if this is something added after the pre-order version?Your story pg 287-292
EDIT: And another question... If a character already has evocation and accepts Seelie magic, the cost for Seelie Magic is then [-3]? [-1] for tacking on the power source to Evocation and an additional [-2] for the Seelie 'ritual' component?
Sponsored Magic [-Varies]
Description: Some varieties of magic draw
on power sources external to the practitioner.
Invariably, these sources of power have some
kind of agenda of their own. See Spellcasting,
page 287, for details about the various kinds of
Sponsored Magic.
Notes: The cost of Sponsored Magic changes
depending on whether or not you already
have Evocation or Thaumaturgy. This also
affects whether or not Sponsored Magic gives
you any additional focus item slots. If you’re
paying full price, you get four focus item slots
with this ability. If you have either Evocation
or Thaumaturgy, thus reducing the cost of
Sponsored Magic, you only get two additional
focus item slots. If you have both, reducing the
cost more, you don’t get any additional focus
item slots.
Thank you again for the pointers. I've thoroughly enjoyed and appreciated this topic. It cleared the topic up quite a bit and the chart is very useful.
Back to the topic of breaking down sponsored magic. i took the time to attempt to break down the ones in the book using the current system.
n Norse polytheism, Thor (from Old Norse Þórr) is a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, destruction, fertility, healing, and the protection of mankind.
# Access to Rituals for the sponsor's theme [1]
# Access to Channeling for sponsor's element [1]
Reducing the effectiveness of all creature’s toughness powers [2]
Well just of the top of my head and a verry quik look at wikipedia
Id define the theme of this kind of sponsored magic as the above. Though i would recommend cutting it down to thunder, lightning, storms, and strength, as healing is problematic in the dresdenverse, destruction is slightly redundant and i personally am not aware of any myths of thor that involve him being depicted as a god of fertility.
That gives you the basis of your rituals and channeling, which using the system farther back in this thread is 2 of the four points you get to allocate.
Personally for the other 2 i would probably choose
As the Norse god whose domain it is to protect mankind i would give his magic the same ability to bypass toughness/recovery that soulfire gets. If that doesn't sit well with you id go with +1 to the power, control and +2 complexity to all of your thunder/lightning evocations.
Channelling and Ritual include focus slots and are lost if you have Evocation or Thaumaturgy already.
Does this breakdown seem reasonable?