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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: bobjob on February 08, 2011, 10:35:07 PM
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I just started running a campaign and am thinking of a shape shifting shaman like Injun Joe. The problem is, I've been having issues statting up his particular shape shifting abilities. I could do it like the other were-creatures in the YS core book, but I was hoping to find a way to do it with just a spell. In the books Injun Joe did it so fast in the fight with the Naaglioshii that to me it would be an evocation. I mean, that is essentially what the Alphas shape shifting is, a highly specialized evocation.
Has anybody tried to stat this out for your own campaigns/characters?
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True Shapeshifting and Modular Abilities. The True Shapeshifting accounts for the ability to change into a variety of forms, and the Modular Abilities backs up the, well, abilities of those forms. Basically, Injun Joe is so good at shapechange that he has the skill to cast the spell down to the level of a power, much like the Alphas have the "spell" of wolf-form at the level of a power.
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Look here: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,16552.45.html (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,16552.45.html)
You can't really do it with a spell. It just isn't feasible with this system.
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I just started running a campaign and am thinking of a shape shifting shaman like Injun Joe. The problem is, I've been having issues statting up his particular shape shifting abilities. I could do it like the other were-creatures in the YS core book, but I was hoping to find a way to do it with just a spell. In the books Injun Joe did it so fast in the fight with the Naaglioshii that to me it would be an evocation. I mean, that is essentially what the Alphas shape shifting is, a highly specialized evocation.
Has anybody tried to stat this out for your own campaigns/characters?
I think the game rules recommend you pay Refresh for the shape shifting powers and call them a well-practiced spell - same with for any other "spell" which works better as a creature ability.
But for a PC without the Refresh to spend on that ability, you need to consult with your GM decide how hard it will be to Transform oneself. At the very least, the rules indicate you pay 1 Fate Point for each Refresh worth of power you will temporarily have.
General community feedback ranges between:
Extremely hard: enough Complexity to take yourself out entirely (anywhere from 25-30 or even more shifts), and for each Refresh worth of power you will temporarily have, you add +1 Complexity and pay 1 Fate Point, plus shifts for duration. That's stress track, all consequence slots, and overcoming an Endurance check. This is the same as transforming another creature.
Moderately difficult: anything in between - usually requires only taking out the caster's Physical stress track.
Ridiculously Easy: For each Refresh worth of power you will temporarily have, you add +1 Complexity and pay 1 Fate Point, plus shifts for duration.
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Ridiculously Easy: For each Refresh worth of power you will temporarily have, you add +1 Complexity and pay 1 Fate Point, plus shifts for duration.
Dont forget you can use maneuvers instead of fate points if your not in a hurry! O:}
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Dont forget you can use maneuvers instead of fate points if your not in a hurry! O:}
Even more easy: offer to get the GM a drink.
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I'm the GM of this particular game and I buy myself drinks all the time :)
I was thinking of using this shape shifting shaman as a foil for the PCs, but just thought buying the powers seemed a little off considering what Injun Joe knew how to do via some spell. But it's entirely possible you're correct and it was all bought through the were-beast powers.
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In the game world, it's a spell. But we don't live there, so we have to model it in other ways.
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Remember that no ability in the game really has one flavor. A Shapechanging ability could be a spell, something more natural (T1000), a learned supernatural ability that technically isn't a spell, etc. It's not tied to one interpretation. So for Listens-to-Winds it is a spellcasting ability (possibly even replacing some of his spellcasting while he is affected with modular abilities). For Billy it is something more natural, though Harry likes to interpret it as a spell (Bob maybe as well, though he really only used "spell" as a reference point for Harry).
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In all honesty, while I haven't gotten quite to that part of the books, I've been kinda thinking about this a little bit too... Unfortunately, the magic gone over in the book really doesn't sit very well with how to do this period, much less at the speed your talking about Injun Joe transforming... I'd thought of a few ideas for a spell, or two that involve changing your form, but for the most part, they were only meant to be used as a form of quicker travel through more difficult terrains, not to be used in the sense your talking...
In all honesty, one of the bigger problems with trying to use a spell, is the fact that unless you build an additional "something" into the spell, in my mind, the transformation would be complete... IE Permanent. Duration doesn't matter at that point, once you've completely changed the body. In fact, what duration would do, would be how long the spell's energy could keep it going. If some hack job sorcerer transforms someone into a newt, and places a duration of a day and a night, the poor guy isn't gonna turn back after 36 hours. That'd be when the magic that is keeping his "not even a real newt body" alive, and without it, won't manage to stay alive for long... So in order for your spell to turn you into something and back, you'd most likely have to work in your SELF into the spell, a grounding point that reaffirmed yourself and who and what YOU are. Or maybe the spell, rather than changing your own body, simply creates a construct of the "form" you wish to take, hiding your own body somewhere, and pretty much placing your consciousness inside. You'd again, have to place some measures that allow you to get back, otherwise the previous version would be just as lethal...
I'm not even going to get into how I would probably do the spell, because I've found myself to be VERY monstorous on the required complexity of such things... >.< I actually tried to write it out, and I think I came up to a 62 complexity spell for turning into the equivalent of a Werewolf from the Template section, hehe...
But back onto Injun Joe... Like has been said, although he uses "magic" for his form of shapeshifting, taking refresh for his shapeshifting abilities and calling it being done by magic would most likely be the easiest way to stat it out. It would ALSO make good on the fact that hes simply ingrained it so deeply into his magical abilities, that he can cast such a complex spell at such a quickened rate. In all honesty, when I imagine how Joe probably started off, I can easily see him first making a spell and playing and mastering it. Over time, he began to get better and better at it, eventually getting to the point where he actually bought some Refresh stuffs. Now, I also imagine he probably started out with a single form. But as he grew older, and more powerful, he began working on others. At this point, I figure he and his ST worked something out, and he got to trade in his original Shapeshifting powers, and take something like Modular Abilities. From their, he could pretty much start taking any animal form he wanted. He also probably learned an Improved form, allowing him to shift to his new form even faster.
Of course, this is all speculation, and could be very very far from what happened... Its just what I saw, in my own imagined sequence of events.
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Another way is how I set up a character in my game that wanted the same thing. I had him pick up Sponsored Magic with Coyote being his sponsor. He already has Thaum and Evoc; so the sponsorship gives him the ability to Self-Transform at Evocation Speed and Methods. Since it is a self transformation, he concedes and only needs to beat his 3 Physical Stress. Adding in some extra shifts for complexity and he can pull off a shape change in one action. Also, his sponsor provides access to Echos of the Beast and the animal "software" needed to run his new body.
It's not true shapeshifting, though. He can only shift into natural animals and only ones that he as had personal contact with and he carries around fetishes from those animals that are needed components for the spell. This part is largely fluff that we agreed on; but mitigates what, otherwise, would be a very expensive power from Sponsored Magic.
When he transforms, I have him trade in his Evocation and Thaum (6 Refresh) for powers from the Animal/Beast section of powers that make sense for the form. Though, recently, we have been debating as to if a grizzly bear (or other large critter) would qualify as having Inhuman Strength or not. Or if we should just model that with shifting some skills around to Might while in that form.
The bonus for me (as GM) is that I get to have lots of fun with handing out debt from a trickster god/spirit.
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I'm with Kommisar on this. Listens-To-Wind's shapeshifting is incredibly unique among what we've seen, and he did it with flawless execution.
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I'm the GM of this particular game and I buy myself drinks all the time :)
I was thinking of using this shape shifting shaman as a foil for the PCs, but just thought buying the powers seemed a little off considering what Injun Joe knew how to do via some spell. But it's entirely possible you're correct and it was all bought through the were-beast powers.
If he's an NPC, and more importantly, a bad guy NPC, then its not even a question of how to do it with spells. Just give him the shapeshifting abilities and don't sweat the details. The only question is how to represent the powers mechanically at that point, and the only logical answer is by using the pre-existing shapeshifting mechanics, even if they aren't the things PC wizards get access to.
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Hell, if he's an NPC, just decide roughly the kinds of shapes he can take on, how his stats are affected, and don't sweat the mechanical details.
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I wouldn't look at it so literally, actually. You can probably simulate what Shagnasty and Joe were throwing at each other as a series of evocation blocks and attacks, simply described as changing into animal form for the duration of the attack or whatever. Joe's "Spirit" element probably involves animalism, given his roots, just like it's been said Ancient Mai's elements are the Chinese ones rather than our Western set.
I think my interpretation is obviously looser and less precise, but it puts such a scene within reach of a wizardly PC without needing refresh levels in the teens or twenties.
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I think my interpretation is obviously looser and less precise, but it puts such a scene within reach of a wizardly PC without needing refresh levels in the teens or twenties.
Which obviously Listens-to-the-Wind would have, but still a good point.
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I wouldn't look at it so literally, actually. You can probably simulate what Shagnasty and Joe were throwing at each other as a series of evocation blocks and attacks, simply described as changing into animal form for the duration of the attack or whatever.
That's a great way to abstract out a pair of NPCs fighting: basically, that duel was the classic Wizard shapeshifting duel.
Alas, players are going to want a little more specificity in what they can do, but I could be wrong - what do other folks think?
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All depends on how you want to play it. The way I happen to like to visualize shapeshifting is sort of based on the Riddle Master of Hed books; the idea that you have to know/understand an animal to shift into it.
I think the sponsored magic might be along the lines of the way I would go, with maybe an aspect required for each shape 'known' and a FATE point for each transformation (both ways, which could be interesting when the PC is running low).
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That's a great way to abstract out a pair of NPCs fighting: basically, that duel was the classic Wizard shapeshifting duel.
They failed to use the classic and accepted opening move of turning into a dragon, so I must disagree.
It's also doesn't work at all for PCs. I assume Listens got various bonuses for his forms (not to mention flight)...basically that's very hard to replicate easily with normal casting without a lot of house ruling regarding gaining temporary powers (like the guy with the Coyote magic did in his campaign). I think going with the shapeshifting powers makes the most sense -- maybe Listens backed that up with some magic though.
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basically that's very hard to replicate easily with normal casting without a lot of house ruling regarding gaining temporary powers
Given sufficient fate points its only one complexity per refresh of powers gained. so with biomancy at evo. you could do it. i wouldn't really recommend it as a viable combat strategy but there ya go.
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Given sufficient fate points its only one complexity per refresh of powers gained. so with biomancy at evo. you could do it. i wouldn't really recommend it as a viable combat strategy but there ya go.
And that's a house rule right there, because by the rules there's no cost listed for that (only full transformations are really discussed and those have no cost for individual powers you might bestow)...and that's then combined with mid-session power upgrade rules. Probably balanced ENOUGH, given the extremely high cost in fate points and the fact it shouldn't last more than a scene...though perhaps not (plenty of bonuses can be very powerful for the fate point cost if you can get them at a whim, and this places it in the realm of grabbing with enchanted items).
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And that's a house rule right there
Technically yeah but its not mine. i got it from an early post of one of the moderators. i forget if it was iago or lcdarkwood, given sufficient motivation i could probably dig up the post.
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Technically yeah but its not mine. i got it from an early post of one of the moderators. i forget if it was iago or lcdarkwood, given sufficient motivation i could probably dig up the post.
Cookie?
We really need all that stuff collected in a sticky...but I think I pissed Iago off when I was proposing that. I'm not very diplomatic.
Hmm, did they ever talk about making items like the Warden Swords that have multiple uses that share the same charges? (Off-hand, seems like it could be something like lowering the power by 1 to add another ability on those charges all at the same lowered power level...that seems about reasonable).
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Hmm, did they ever talk about making items like the Warden Swords that have multiple uses that share the same charges? (Off-hand, seems like it could be something like lowering the power by 1 to add another ability on those charges all at the same lowered power level...that seems about reasonable).
Not that i recall but i was loudly disagreeing with him over nearly all of the enchanted item changes at the time so i may have blanked it out.
Yes a consolidated place for "official" and consensus statements/rules would be nice.