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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Watson on February 08, 2011, 09:21:31 AM

Title: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Watson on February 08, 2011, 09:21:31 AM
In my current preparation for starting up the DFRPG I have looked a bit into a few aspects (!) of the game that I think that can be abused by the players. My recent finding is the enchanted items, when maximizing the rules. What about this one?

The player creates a Wizard, and sets Lore to +5 and chooses Crafting (Strength) as the specialization for Thaumaturgy (meaning that all items will have a default power level of 6, and that the maximum power level is 10 (or is it 12?)). He then chooses to have all four focus items to be replaced by eight enchanted item slots, and creates two items; one wand (offensive fire evocation, strength of 6) and one duster (defensive spirit block, strength of 6).

He then sacrifices two enchanted item slots to increase the strength of the wand to 8. Finally, he sacrificed the last four enchanted item slots to increase the strength of the duster to 10. Both items can only be used once (but he can take one mental stress to increase the number of uses by one for each point of stress).

This means that, for one point of mental stress, he can make an attack of strength 8 – without risking any backlash/fallout (if this were considered a Rote spell, just as a comparison, it would be equivalent of having an effective Conviction and Discipline of 8 ). In regards to the duster, he can for each attack choose to activate the defensive spells equal to a block of strength 10 – without risking any backlash/fallout (if this were considered a Rote spell, just as a comparison, it would be equivalent of having an effective Conviction and Discipline of 10!). A defensive block of 10 would avoid most attacks, and if they went through, he could use it as Armor 5 instead – for just 1 point of mental stress, without any roll!. In combat, why should he ever bother using “normal” magic?

Please let me know in case I have used the rules in an incorrect way, or if you don’t think this is overpowered.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: BumblingBear on February 08, 2011, 09:48:45 AM
This subject has already been discussed quite a bit.

Yes, a submerged artificer can be walking around with 700... yes, 700 shifts of magic in items ready to go.

Yes, they can have 10+ shift effects.

However, without all that crap they wouldn't have a lot of power and in play they could be relegated to the magic item bitch.

Consider:  A character like that could easily lose their powers, or be arrested and all their stuff taken.  As far as I know they still can't kill mortals with that stuff....

Actually - can they?  Can a magic item be used to break the first law?  I'd never considered that...

Anyway, also consider that spells are usually aimed with discipline.  Sure, guns could be used for some items, but discipline is the go-to.

Chances are that an artificer won't be able to have a high discipline score due to all the doodads.

Plus, an artificer would be extra squishy.  It's not that hard for an NPC in a submerged level campaign to get above a 10 shift attack roll, breaking the artificer's shield unless he spends fate points as well.  Also consider that if an artificer does not keep a shield up at all times, he's pretty much dead.  Sure, he could activate it when attacked and then just prolong it on his turn... but not if the shield is overcome or he is not attacked.

Lastly, with a character like that I would get very specific with asking what the shield blocks.  Since the wizard still needs to breathe and usually won't have the back of the shield closed anyway, it would be relatively easy for him to be "taken out" with gas.

A smart enemy would not have a face to face fight with a character like that.  It would be a long shot or gas.

Since enchanted items can be used by others at 1 shift less power than they were created for, enemies might want to get their hands on an artificer's toys.

In an ambush, it would not be too hard for a sniper with a scope to hit a character with like a 15 stress attack with a 4 stress weapon from 3 zones away.  If he were hidden, he could just keep his position and take pot shots for several rounds while the PCs made alertness checks against the sniper's stealth.

Soooo... long post.  I guess my point is that things are only OP in the DFRPG if the PCs are more creative than the GMs.  The GM is not out to kill the players, but he or she can undoubtably still give them a challenge.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Drachasor on February 08, 2011, 10:03:28 AM
Actually - can they?  Can a magic item be used to break the first law?  I'd never considered that...

Cheap answer is that you still have to really believe to make your items work...it just takes no energy.

Then reduce the power by one so anyone can pull a lever and the toy gun shoots out a fireball that engulfs a city block (Lore 6, +3 power, -2 for hitting a whole zone, -1 for anyone able to use it, so a Shift 5 attack...nasty).  Certainly it violates the LETTER of the Laws of Magic, but it is hard to see how that would have a different effect on one's soul than using bazooka or something.  For the sake of a reasonably consistent balance though, I think you just have to say "YES, IT STILL COUNTS!"
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: BumblingBear on February 08, 2011, 10:10:21 AM
Cheap answer is that you still have to really believe to make your items work...it just takes no energy.

Then reduce the power by one so anyone can pull a lever and the toy gun shoots out a fireball that engulfs a city block (Lore 6, +3 power, -2 for hitting a whole zone, -1 for anyone able to use it, so a Shift 5 attack...nasty).  Certainly it violates the LETTER of the Laws of Magic, but it is hard to see how that would have a different effect on one's soul than using bazooka or something.  For the sake of a reasonably consistent balance though, I think you just have to say "YES, IT STILL COUNTS!"

I dunno... I think that some of the discussions on the board have too narrow of a focus because we pretty much just discuss what PCs can do... usually to make themselves more powerful.

Consider: bad guys can do what the PCs can do.

Consider: a campaign where a White Council card-holding wizard is making destructive devices like the one you mentioned and selling them to criminals since the damage type cannot be traced.

That would be one wacky, ethically murky story.

Not only that, as I said in another thread, character who had items like that would probably be looked at through envious eyes.  What if a character has a weapon like that and someone steals it?  Not only would they be without a weapon, but they'd have to deal with the guilt/consequences of the thief using it for evil.

What if a foreign government gets ahold of the "gun" and then keeps trying to kidnap the PC so he can explain how the "technology" works?

There area  million story ideas based on enchanted items. 
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Drachasor on February 08, 2011, 10:17:42 AM
And they can be done if the item still corrupts the user if used to break a law, just like the Hexenwolf belts.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: BumblingBear on February 08, 2011, 10:28:18 AM
And they can be done if the item still corrupts the user if used to break a law, just like the Hexenwolf belts.

As I understand it, the Hexenwolf belts didn't corrupt because of law violations - they were corrupting because they were created by a corrupting entity.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Drachasor on February 08, 2011, 10:55:58 AM
As I understand it, the Hexenwolf belts didn't corrupt because of law violations - they were corrupting because they were created by a corrupting entity.

Oh yes, granted, I only meant that corrupting items can be given away, asked after, searched for, demanded, and so forth.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Watson on February 08, 2011, 11:31:26 AM
Thanks for the replies. I will consider createing a house rule for Enchanted items - either removing the "add one activation for one mental stress" or increase the cost of such an activation to something higher than 1.

BumblingBear - the sorcerer selling these "weapons" to criminals is indeed a great story idea, thanks!
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: crusher_bob on February 08, 2011, 11:41:56 AM
Please let me know in case I have used the rules in an incorrect way, or if you don’t think this is overpowered.

Enchanted items are possibly the strongest defense in the game, but they are only good (edit for clarity: good as opposed to awesome or supreme) on the offense.  Consider a character with supernatural strength can carry around a bag of bricks and throw them at people for an effective weapon: 6, and he can do this with basically anything he can pick up (and with supernatural strength, that a whole lot of stuff).

The real limit on attacks with enchanted items (as compared to other magical attacks) is that you can't increase your to hit roll.  Anyone who can produce a power 7 block or dodge can basically ignore any enchanted item attack since the best you can really expect is a superb discipline and +2 on the fudge dice.

People who rely on evocation blocks for defense have them as a rote, so don't have to worry about rolling them either.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Drachasor on February 08, 2011, 11:47:11 AM
Thanks for the replies. I will consider createing a house rule for Enchanted items - either removing the "add one activation for one mental stress" or increase the cost of such an activation to something higher than 1.

Remember, that you only really get ONE activation at 1 mental stress.  After that you still have to fill in a whole box, so it's 2, 3, 4, consequences...
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: BumblingBear on February 08, 2011, 12:22:39 PM
Thanks for the replies. I will consider createing a house rule for Enchanted items - either removing the "add one activation for one mental stress" or increase the cost of such an activation to something higher than 1.

BumblingBear - the sorcerer selling these "weapons" to criminals is indeed a great story idea, thanks!

No problem!  :)

Enchanted items are possibly the strongest defense in the game, but they are only good on the offense.  Consider a character with supernatural strength can carry around a bag of bricks and throw them at people for an effective weapon: 6, and he can do this with basically anything he can pick up (and with supernatural strength, that a whole lot of stuff).

The real limit on attacks with enchanted items (as compared to other magical attacks) is that you can't increase your to hit roll.  Anyone who can produce a power 7 block or dodge can basically ignore any enchanted item attack since the best you can really expect is a superb discipline and +2 on the fudge dice.

People who rely on evocation blocks for defense have them as a rote, so don't have to worry about rolling them either.

Agreed - and this is why I don't worry about it much.

Honestly, I think that an artificer would be best if used in an "armorer" role or a "tank" role.

They really cannot dish out the damage unless you count the scene.  10 shifts of power against something that cannot meet or exceed the attack roll would be nasty.

Speaking of which, a really easy way to muzzle an artificer would be to create scene aspects from those 10 shifts of power not hitting if the artificer misses his target.

On a similar vein, I was about to blast a target in a session I was in, but the GM told me that my allies an an NPC were pretty much in a straight line in front of and behind the creature I wanted to hit.  I had to make a maneuver to get a good line of sight.

My point is that 10 shifts of power isn't going to be stopped by one creature.  If the artificer PC does not keep tabs on what is behind whatever he is shooting at, he could end up killing himself.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: crusher_bob on February 08, 2011, 12:50:29 PM
If you really want to screw with an artificer, goto a school for training dogs.  Get a pack of train attack dogs that all have the disarm stunt (and good or great fists) (and since they are pack animals also know how to maneuver the crap out of you before striking) and then point at the artificer.  Hide behind something for a few exchanges while all the blasting dies down, they walk out with your baseball bat and explain to the artificer why having all your power tied up in things that can be taken away is probably a bad idea.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: BumblingBear on February 08, 2011, 01:24:49 PM
If you really want to screw with an artificer, goto a school for training dogs.  Get a pack of train attack dogs that all have the disarm stunt (and good or great fists) (and since they are pack animals also know how to maneuver the crap out of you before striking) and then point at the artificer.  Hide behind something for a few exchanges while all the blasting dies down, they walk out with your baseball bat and explain to the artificer why having all your power tied up in things that can be taken away is probably a bad idea.

Then the artificer uses his 10 shift veil item and runs away.  lol

Like I said, I don't worry about them too much because they can make a lot of noise and collateral damage, but are not the fist of God.

They /do/ have oodles of survivability, though.

Honestly, I think a creature with mythic strength is far more powerful than an artificer.  An enormous sword (like weapon: 4) plus the ability to pick up cars and throw them as a weapon could really ruin anyone's day.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: bitterpill on February 08, 2011, 02:12:21 PM
Enchanted item specialists aren't bad for offence, they get the standard +5 to hit if they are maxed which is the same as mythic strength bunny. They also get about the same level of weapon as a strength bunny throwing a car would be getting a total weapon of 11 compared to the artificers 10. But the advantage for the Artificer os he can to wear enchanted glasses which six times a session give 3 taggable fragile aspects like 'super sight', 'the worlds slowed down' and 'ultimate aim' which can be used next turn to turn thier attack roll up to 11 (hahha take it up to eleven). So with a defense of 10 and attack of 11 at Weapons 10 they are the most broken thing in DFRP. Unless the GM decides they are too powerful and sets about punishing them for thier power ways to do this include sending High Sidhe after them or attacking them whilst they sleep or saying that having that many enchanted items requires you to be constantly in the lab. Also if they are being sensible and keeping reserve magic items at home or in secure locker boxes etc you can have them stolen by pretty much anyone who can either break wards or defeat security. 
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: infusco on February 08, 2011, 03:37:01 PM
Quick question. We were discussing reactive Evocation Blocks in another thread, and it's already stated in the book (YS280) that defensive enchanted items definitely are a reactive Block. But one question that sticks in my mind is this: I'd rule that you can't cast an Evocation Block if you're caught by surprise ... but would a defensive enchanted item be able to reactively Block an attack if caught unawares?

While it seems possibly overpowered, there are few instances in the novels where
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Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: bitterpill on February 08, 2011, 03:50:41 PM
I think that was more because Harrys trench coat is allways on, there used to be a power that could do that in this edition but they overuled it. So yer I suppose without the allways on ability which limited the bonus to lore then you should be able to defend against ambushes with your magic item otherwise it is out of context with the source material. Though I would put the limit that if you could block against ambush then the enchanted item must have automatic activation which takes away your control of when to use its charges.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Wolfwood2 on February 08, 2011, 03:51:25 PM
Quick question. We were discussing reactive Evocation Blocks in another thread, and it's already stated in the book (YS280) that defensive enchanted items definitely are a reactive Block. But one question that sticks in my mind is this: I'd rule that you can't cast an Evocation Block if you're caught by surprise ... but would a defensive enchanted item be able to reactively Block an attack if caught unawares?

Sure.  To my mind, the balancing factor on enchanted item blocks is that because there's no roll, you can't spend a Fate point and invoke an Aspect to boost the block.  And worse, your opponent can do so.

Oh, I got a 4 on my Guns roll to shoot you in the back and you have a duster with block 5?  I think I'll drop a Fate point and invoke my "I love Guns" aspect.  Would you like to invoke an aspect?  Oh you can't, can you.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: infusco on February 08, 2011, 04:27:18 PM
Okay, here's another question then:

You need Thaumaturgy to create an enchanted item, and not Evocation, right?

So what restrictions would apply to someone with ONLY Thaumaturgy using an enchanted blasting rod he crafted for himself? According to rules, a practitioner could keep using it endlessly for a point of mental stress. For purposes of these rules, what exactly qualifies as a practitioner?
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Wolfwood2 on February 08, 2011, 04:38:48 PM
Okay, here's another question then:

You need Thaumaturgy to create an enchanted item, and not Evocation, right?

So what restrictions would apply to someone with ONLY Thaumaturgy using an enchanted blasting rod he crafted for himself? According to rules, a practitioner could keep using it endlessly for a point of mental stress. For purposes of these rules, what exactly qualifies as a practitioner?

It really depends on the story the player has put together.  If he can make it make sense, then he qualifies.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Ophidimancer on February 08, 2011, 04:48:32 PM
would a defensive enchanted item be able to reactively Block an attack if caught unawares?

Quote from: YS280
Defensive items (ones that provide armor or a block, for example) often consume a use at the time of defense and don’t require a separate action to activate.

The way I read this is that a defensive item doesn't need a separate action to activate because it activates itself, so I would say yes, defensive enchanted items can still block an attack if the wearer is caught unawares.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Moriden on February 08, 2011, 05:25:10 PM
The artificer is decent but doest hold a candle to the focused practitioner who chooses summer magic/biomancy as there focus. or even any really specialized mage for that matter.

your objection seems to be that they can get strength 8 affects for zero  to one stress?

Discipline 5, Conviction 5      Modified [7/10]  if offensive casting meant to kill or alter 9/13
Lore 4

Focus items
+4 biomancy [applies to all summer magic rolls as control, as long as within the themes of summer magic.]
+2 Summer magic offensive power.

Summer magic -4
Item of Power  Oaken staff  -1   [Grants Refinement 3] +2 Summer magic: Power, +1 Biomancy: Control other refinement into 2 more focus item slots
Lawbreaker -2 second
Lawbreaker -1 first

depending on st whim you may or may not be able to take another level of refinement to bring it up to 11 shift effects with a control roll of 13 all at submerged power level.

The same general build works equally well with hellfire, or even simple channeling/rituals. alternatively you can grant full evocation and thaumaturgy by dropping 2 points of lawbreaker for very minimal lost in efficiency.

This of course doesn't even scratch the surface of what you can do with complexity 10 rituals at no preparation. especially when you'd have a discipline roll of 13 for any biomantic buff spells and little to no worry about them backfiring due to the expertise provided by it being summer magic.

for example you are afraid that your to much of a blaster and are afraid a sniper might kill you, no problem. Spend about an hour each morning meditating, and otherwise preparing yourself for your daily/weakly buff ritual.
+10 from self assessments should be fairly trivial. so you now have a complexity 20 ritual that you cast in 2-3 rounds with no chance of failure. this effect can give you something like a block 16/8 which just like a ward will weaken instead of disappearing when overcome for duration... oh well spend the other 4 shifts into that, since its a thaumaturgical affect we use the time chart starting at day that pushes it to a month.

Likewise five free tags on an aspect you created is easily possible. Now if your gm frowns on using assessments to boost the complexity of rituals and wont listen that the book clearly says that that is the way to do it, your still fine. you just cast a base complexity 10 spell. for armer 8/4 duration a week. sure its not as powerful but its better or equal to what the artificer is going to have and you can do the same thing with aspect stacking. or rigging up a block instead of simple action for any of your spells with a strength of 8-10 at similarly long duration. and of course since you have summer magic you can do that at evocation speeds while arguably keeping thaumaturgical duration, at 9 shifts for one stress or 2-3 for 10-11 shift evocations, and still reliably control them with your discipline.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: BumblingBear on February 08, 2011, 05:39:26 PM
Quick question. We were discussing reactive Evocation Blocks in another thread, and it's already stated in the book (YS280) that defensive enchanted items definitely are a reactive Block. But one question that sticks in my mind is this: I'd rule that you can't cast an Evocation Block if you're caught by surprise ... but would a defensive enchanted item be able to reactively Block an attack if caught unawares?

While it seems possibly overpowered, there are few instances in the novels where
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I think both the source novels and the RAW are pretty clear about this - yes, it is allowed.

Now, my GM in the last session we had ruled that I could either have an "always on" block or armor effect - not either/or.  Since my character sheet listed it as a block, I got to use the block when I was caught unawares.

I hope this helps.  But yeah, items work even if surprised. 
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Moriden on February 08, 2011, 05:41:49 PM
Quote
Now, my GM in the last session we had ruled that I could either have an "always on" block or armor effect - not either/or.  Since my character sheet listed it as a block, I got to use the block when I was caught unawares.

the books pretty clear that you get to choose, unfortunately st whim gets to overrule the books. : /
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: BumblingBear on February 08, 2011, 05:43:37 PM
Also for the record, a character could use fate points to mitigate damage if sniped, they'd just have to find other ways to do it.

You can't really boost an item shield anyway...

You could however say that your aspect of "world weary warrior" has taught you to roll with the punches and take another +2 off the attack.

Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Moriden on February 08, 2011, 05:49:22 PM
Quote
You could however say that your aspect of "world weary warrior" has taught you to roll with the punches and take another +2 off the attack.

Not doubting you, but could you find the reference that says you can use a fate point/aspect to reduce another persons roll? i haven't been able to find it, though i think it makes sense.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: BumblingBear on February 08, 2011, 06:04:11 PM
Not doubting you, but could you find the reference that says you can use a fate point/aspect to reduce another persons roll? i haven't been able to find it, though i think it makes sense.

Honestly I'm not sure that it's in the books explicitly, but it makes sense and fits with the whole fate point system.

The foundation for the fate point system is that nothing is free.  Players have to do some sort of work to get a "free" tag (making it not actually free) and fate points are the basic "money" to pay for things with in-game.

Some GMs may not allow it (using a fate point to activate a relevant aspect that makes sense), but I would bet that Fred would say it's ok.

Still, it's exactly because of situations like this (ambushes) that my character will almost always do a NGM like, "prepared for action" in any scene he is expecting trouble.  Not only will this give a free tag but it is something I can use a fate point on later if I am against a wall.

Oh yeah!  I actually just remembered how the mechanic would work.  The book does not say you don't get a defense in case of an ambush, it says that you "get an effective defense roll of mediocre (0)."  So you'd actually just be adding your +2 invoke to your pre-existing defense roll of 0.

Problem solved and it actually is covered by the RAW.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Moriden on February 08, 2011, 06:21:13 PM
Quote
Problem solved and it actually is covered by the RAW.

Shiny, thank you.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Wolfwood2 on February 08, 2011, 06:24:45 PM
Oh yeah!  I actually just remembered how the mechanic would work.  The book does not say you don't get a defense in case of an ambush, it says that you "get an effective defense roll of mediocre (0)."  So you'd actually just be adding your +2 invoke to your pre-existing defense roll of 0.

Problem solved and it actually is covered by the RAW.

Sure you can do that.  It doesn't stack with the block, though.  You don't get to use the block to remove 5 from the 6 shift attack and then use a defensive roll to remove the last shift.  Instead you take the greater of your block or your defensive roll and substract that from the attack.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: BumblingBear on February 08, 2011, 06:29:16 PM
Sure you can do that.  It doesn't stack with the block, though.  You don't get to use the block to remove 5 from the 6 shift attack and then use a defensive roll to remove the last shift.  Instead you take the greater of your block or your defensive roll and substract that from the attack.

That's true for normal attacks, yes.

However, if I were GMing I would allow it.

If you didn't want to allow it, the player could just take their block as armor and still use fate points to increase their defense roll.

Once again, the situation is actually rather elegantly simple based on the RAW.

You better believe my character would take a 2 armor instead of a 4 block using an enchanted item if he could use what fate points and NGM he had to bump up a 0 defense roll.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Wolfwood2 on February 08, 2011, 06:49:51 PM
If you didn't want to allow it, the player could just take their block as armor and still use fate points to increase their defense roll.

Which (since it was a gunshot and the defensive roll started really low) means that the player will likely still take some stress rather than none at all.  All good!  The item helped, but it didn't let you become invulnerable by stacking rolls.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 08, 2011, 08:16:52 PM
Moriden, I take issue with your Sponsored uber-caster. Here's why:

Items of Power are often not allowed to grant Refinement.
Block or armour rituals are generally considered broken (and with good reason).
You can't stack foci.
Lawbreaker only adds to control by the RAW.
I don't think you can stack Lawbreaker (although I could be wrong).
There's no such thing as a "biomancy" focus, it has to be "biomancy control" or something else like that.
Allowing a thaumaturgy focus to boost all uses of Sponsored Magic is probably not reasonable.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: infusco on February 08, 2011, 08:22:59 PM
Not to mention that Wards are fixed location spells and not something that can be carried with you. Otherwise, every wizard in the novels would be utterly un-touchable.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Moriden on February 08, 2011, 10:06:44 PM
Quote
Moriden, I take issue with your Sponsored uber-caster. Here's why:

Fair concerns let me walk you through how it works under RAW.

Quote
Items of Power are often not allowed to grant Refinement.

"Abilities outside of the Minor Abilities, Strength, Toughness, and Speed categories must be examined closely by the GM and may be disallowed." pg 167 your story. emphasis mine. the frequency of this being allowed or not is impossible to quantify.

Quote
Block or armour rituals are generally considered broken (and with good reason).

Most likely, though i was in no way addressing weather or not this build should be allowed in a game, merely showing that the artificer is in no way the most broken thing in the system

Quote
Lawbreaker only adds to control by the RAW.

What else could we possibly be talking about but the RAW? i have no way of knowing what any given person may like or dislike about the rules, so i must always assume that the book as written is the standard.

Quote
I don't think you can stack Lawbreaker (although I could be wrong).

"Trouble Comes in Threes. Increase the spellcasting bonus by one if you have three or more Lawbreaker abilities in any combination (i.e., if you’ve broken three or more Laws of Magic, sporting a Lawbreaker ability for each one), making the maximum possible bonus +3." pg 182 your story. so hes just taking the +3 from lawbreaker second, or the +2 from lawbreaker first. switch as desired for your particular character.

Quote
There's no such thing as a "biomancy" focus, it has to be "biomancy control" or something else like that.
and
Quote
You can't stack foci.

it is a thaumaturgical bonus to complexity for biomancy, which is one of the sample thaumaturgical fields in the book. see below for why i mistakenly listed it.

Quote
Allowing a thaumaturgy focus to boost all uses of Sponsored Magic is probably not reasonable.

Got me there, you need kemlerian necromancy to be able to do that and with necromancy not biomancy. im using autumn magic in my game which gives me the ability to use the complexity bonus of your biomancy as a control bonus for certain spells. So i apologize for forgetting that its not a part of printed summer magic. so instead we change the focus items to. a single one that has +4 summer magic control offensive, and +2 summer magic power: offensive. resulting in 9 shift offensive evocations with a control base of 12, mix and match as needed if you want better rotes for defense. im sure i could make a version using kemlerian that worked similarly but i don't see the need.

Quote
Not to mention that Wards are fixed location spells and not something that can be carried with you. Otherwise, every wizard in the novels would be utterly un-touchable.

Wards certainly are. Veils however which i believe use a similar or identical system however are not. And what we are talking about is using biomancy to enhance a body to withstand damage. So much like a ward being limited to a threshold or circle of power this is limited to a person. normally you'd have a really hard time doing this since your understanding of biology probably isn't sufficient, but thats not a problem with summer magic.

The reason you don't see any of the wizards in the book doing this is very simple, none of them have either summer magic or the willingness to experiment with biomancy, rightly fearing the consequences to themselves and from the law. I'm sure you'll then ask well why don't the summer court/knight do this?

To which i can easily respond how do we know they don't? the
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There are in fact several occasions where harry
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To me that very much seems like a situation where harry is confronted with a "ward/block" that he cant overcome until he gets enough assessment actions to penetrate or bring it down.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: infusco on February 08, 2011, 10:29:17 PM
Wards certainly are. Veils however which i believe use a similar or identical system however are not. And what we are talking about is using biomancy to enhance a body to withstand damage. So much like a ward being limited to a threshold or circle of power this is limited to a person. normally you'd have a really hard time doing this since your understanding of biology probably isn't sufficient, but thats not a problem with summer magic.

The reason you don't see any of the wizards in the book doing this is very simple, none of them have either summer magic or the willingness to experiment with biomancy, rightly fearing the consequences to themselves and from the law. I'm sure you'll then ask well why don't the summer court/knight do this?

To which i can easily respond how do we know they don't? the
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There are in fact several occasions where harry
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To me that very much seems like a situation where harry is confronted with a "ward/block" that he cant overcome until he gets enough assessment actions to penetrate or bring it down.


First off, Ogres have straight out resistance to magic specifically. It's not a magical block but an actual inherent Toughness power. In fact, many of the creatures have Toughness powers, most of which are general ones with a regular catch, but some that are specific to certain attacks like that of Ogres. Check Our World, the stats are in there.

Moving forward into the difference between a magical Block and a Toughness power, there is one huge notable example
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Take into consideration that using Biomancy to use your own body's bones, muscles, and skin to create that powerful an armor would require massively reconfiguring how your body works to a vastly traumatic degree. It even says that most uses of Biomancy to supercharge you can cause Consequences due to the strain you're putting on your body. And those are short term effects! The kind of change that would turn your body into something as rigid as steel for several HOURS would definitely kill you. Not maybe. Not probably. Absolute kill you dead!
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: devonapple on February 08, 2011, 10:38:13 PM
Take into consideration that using Biomancy to use your own body's bones, muscles, and skin to create that powerful an armor would require massively reconfiguring how your body works to a vastly traumatic degree. It even says that most uses of Biomancy to supercharge you can cause Consequences due to the strain you're putting on your body. And those are short term effects! The kind of change that would turn your body into something as rigid as steel for several HOURS would definitely kill you. Not maybe. Not probably. Absolute kill you dead!

Sometimes things which we can handwave in one genre (like this power, which no one bats an eye at when seen in a comic book) have mind-bogglingly insane ramifications of scale, complexity and danger in another genre (DFRPG).

One is inclined to route this type of Biomancy effect through a Sponsor because the precedent is that the Sponsor is able to take care of the exponential difficulties inherent in such a transformation.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Moriden on February 08, 2011, 10:44:09 PM
as devonapple said, summer magic clearly says that it takes care of the problems of using biomancy.

I personally don't put a lot of faith in the stats in our world. i was providing examples in the novels which could have supported this mechanical method.

I actually already responded to your spoiler-ed comment
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Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: infusco on February 08, 2011, 10:53:39 PM
as devonapple said, summer magic clearly says that it takes care of the problems of using biomancy.

I personally don't put a lot of faith in the stats in our world. i was providing examples in the novels which could have supported this mechanical method.

I actually already responded to your spoiler-ed comment
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Not quite. At least not from how I read it. Summer magic makes it *easier* to create those effects because it understands biology, but it doesn't lessen the strain your body takes from the ordeal. In other words, it drastically reduces the complexity requirements and can cast at the speed of evocation to allow you to instantly run at three times your speed by powering up your muscles, but in the end, you'll still end up with badly ripped up legs.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 08, 2011, 10:58:14 PM
1. IoP with Refinements have been discussed on these forums before and the consensus seemed to be against them.

2. Your character only has two Lawbreaker powers and so does not benefit from Trouble Comes In Threes.

3. The stats as you have written them apply multiple foci to both power and control. You can't do that. Unless one of the bonuses is meant to be a specialization, in which case you can't have those with Sponsored Magic alone.

4. As far as I know Summer Magic works just fine against cold iron. The book does not say that it doesn't in the entry for Summer Magic, at least.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Moriden on February 08, 2011, 10:58:29 PM
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Not quite. At least not from how I read it. Summer magic makes it *easier* to create those effects because it understands biology, but it doesn't lessen the strain your body takes from the ordeal. In other words, it drastically reduces the complexity requirements and can cast at the speed of evocation to allow you to instantly run at three times your speed by powering up your muscles, but in the end, you'll still end up with badly ripped up legs.

Certainly possible. which is represented by working consequences into the more powerful spells. if you don't do so then your sponsor was able to pull it of for you without complications. For the one character im playing who has summer like biomancy [though certainly not to the degree for that mock up i made] i also have inhuman recovery for that particular reason.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: devonapple on February 08, 2011, 11:00:57 PM
Not quite. At least not from how I read it. Summer magic makes it *easier* to create those effects because it understands biology, but it doesn't lessen the strain your body takes from the ordeal. In other words, it drastically reduces the complexity requirements and can cast at the speed of evocation to allow you to instantly run at three times your speed by powering up your muscles, but in the end, you'll still end up with badly ripped up legs.

Your point is certainly in the spirit of the text, if we go by the DFRPG's take on the "flying spell" question. People can theoretically train up to tolerate such violations of physics and physicality, and bestow such powers on themselves, but in the RPG as well as the fiction, the hazards inherent in learning to tolerate or guide such effects has a potentially lethal learning curve.

I am reminded of Jael, one of the characters from Joanna Russ' "The Female Man" (coincidentally, a cybered-out predatory woman who at one time passed herself off as a dangerous Fae to some people). She mused graphically on the injuries she sustained training up her body to use the enhanced muscles, the broken bones flindered by her untrained and inexpert twitching.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: infusco on February 08, 2011, 11:11:29 PM
Certainly possible. which is represented by working consequences into the more powerful spells. if you don't do so then your sponsor was able to pull it of for you without complications. For the one character im playing who has summer like biomancy [though certainly not to the degree for that mock up i made] i also have inhuman recovery for that particular reason.

As a GM, I wouldn't allow that in the same way that the stunt Tower of Faith does not soak up stress from your own spellcasting. Otherwise, it would be grossly overpowered given that character could use Toughness powers to soak up Backlash or, well, do exactly what you're doing.
Title: Re: Enchanted items - overpowered?
Post by: Moriden on February 08, 2011, 11:18:15 PM
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2. Your character only has two Lawbreaker powers and so does not benefit from Trouble Comes In Threes.

Depends on interpretation i suppose, i view each level of lawbreaker to count. but what i put up as ive said was a five minute example, if you'd like i could make a character who does the same or similar things with no flaws, personally i don't think its really worth the time for a character id never actually play.

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3. The stats as you have written them apply multiple foci to both power and control. You can't do that. Unless one of the bonuses is meant to be a specialization, in which case you can't have those with Sponsored Magic alone.

I would be much obliged if you could cite the rule that says you cant get refinement specializations with sponsored magic? the focus items and specializations where mistaken as i addressed a few posts up.
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4. As far as I know Summer Magic works just fine against cold iron. The book does not say that it doesn't in the entry for Summer Magic, at least.

When it comes up i side with the novels over the rpg. it is not listed in summer magic it is shown that fae magic cannot stand up to iron.
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