Focus items really benefit Focused Practitioners who at Submerged if they waste thier entire refresh on them can get +9 Discipline and +9 Control in thier element in both defence and offence.
Well, first 1 Refinement gives you TWO focus items or TWO Specialization bonuses. Focus items may be stacked, specialization cannot. So Focus Items ARE JUST BETTER. However, they have the significant problem of being items, so they can be taken away. So Specialization is safer, gives you something that can never be robbed or broken, but Focus Items are more powerful since they can be stacked for a bigger net bonus, whereas specializations must be pyramidal.
That said, if you plan on spending 2 foci slots on something, might as well toss a specialization in there for +1 control and +1 power if you plan on using it much. If you plan on using two different elements a lot, then going +3, +3, +2, +1 makes a lot of sense (note the sum of the specializations will be odd assuming your initial specialization bonus is there from taking the starting skill). Of course, the more you spread out, the weaker your individual ability is. Compare the above to someone specialization in one element, going +2, +1, and having +3, +3 from Focus Items stacked on top of that +2, +1 for a net of +5,+4.
Of course, a Focus item is even more important if your Conviction is greater than your Discipline, as you need that control. Generally, the bigger disparity between the two, the more focus items will benefit to even it out a bit.
Im probably have misunderstood you the arguement of stacking was having a +4 control focus and and a +4 power focus which does not break the rule mentioned above.
To get a specialisation Bonus of +4 you need to spend 9 specialisation points, or 4 1/2 fate points this will also give you a +3 +2 +1, in comparison to get a +4 Power in Both offence and defense in a single element you need to spend 8 focus item slots or 4 fate points worth of refinement. Oh I see your point nearly the same and one gives you a +3,+2,+1 for half a fate point difference.
... I think attempting to make an argument when you haven't read the particular thread at all is a very.. Silly thing to do.
Second, I do not understand your argument of Specializations can't stack, Focus Items can = Focus Items ARE JUST BETTER! First and foremost, the box you are referring to on page 249 stats specifically that the only real instance that a Specialization can possibly be potentially stacked, is by some form of overlapping Thaumaturgy. And if you attempted to follow the box, to the description of Focus Items, or at least read the description of Focus Items it to its end, you'd know this...
Another thing is your example of +3, +3, +2, +1 isn't possible. It does not follow the pyramidal archetype that you mentioned earlier. The best you could manage is a +3, +2, +2, +1, +1. In order to have your example, you'd require to have an additional 2 elements, one at +2, the other at +1. (But as a note, this Pyramidal shape includes all of the specializations put into Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy. You could have a power bonus of +3, +3, but only if you also had some form of +2, +2, +1 +1 in control.)
And yes, you could just to put 1 Refresh into Specialization, then 2 into Focus items for your example, but the +5, +4 would ONLY be good for either offence or defense, which was the very START of my argument, and beginning this thread. A Specialization either goes into Control of an Element, or the Power of an Element. A Focus Item is further divided into Control Offensive, Control Defensive, Power Offensive, Control Offensive. AND, in order to equal a Specialization in its complete, and rounded bonus of either to Control or Power, you need to double up on the respected Element.
You are better off, after your first specialization refinement, holding onto your refresh until you have 2 points to spend in further specialization requirements at the time. That prevents you from having to play tower of Hanoi as much. Though you can get to +4 without really having to juggle things that much.
1 point spent: +2, +1
(start saving up 2 points of refresh here)
3 points spent: +3, + 2, + 1, +1
5 points spent: +4, +3, +2, +1
7 points spent: +5, +4, +3, +2, +1
(you save up for 3 points of refresh this time)
10 points spent (if you have lore 6): +6, +5, +4, +3, +2, +1
And after that, you are forced to take more evocation elements. But you are something like a 20+ refresh character at that point.
It's never worth it to try for even power and control bonuses (e.g. +3, +3, +2, +2, +1, +1) over odd bonuses (e.g. +4, +3, +2, +1) because getting your bonuses to come out even costs around twice as much.
Also, since 'all elements are equal' (except spirit seems a bit more equal than others), it's mostly pointless to up your specialization bonuses in other elements, except when you need to build up your pyramid.
Well, I suppose you could 'cheat' like that. Still, even at 10 point spent, going with Foci gives a slight edge if you only worry about two elements (one defense, one offense).
Of course, you'll hit a brick wall with Foci at +6 ones, since you need something unwieldy to go beyond +6.
I care a lot less about maximizing my stats and more about progressing my character in a way that is thematically appropriate.
Just my .02
Edit2: Let's expand the tree I made above, we'll pretend you just do evocation Evocation...note max improvement is bound by a slowly rising curve (logarithmic, looks like)
+1 (0)
+2, +1 (1)
+2, +1, +1, +1 (2)
+3, +2, +1, +1 (3)
+3, +2, +2, +1, +1 (4)
+4, +3, +2, +1, +1 (5) (put 2 into one of the +2's)
+4, +3, +2, +2, +1, +1 (6)
+4, +3, +2, +2, +1, +1, +1, +1 (8, must take a 4th element with a refinement, then specialize)
+4, +3, +3, +2, +2, +1, +1, +1 (9)
+4, +3, +3, +2, +2, +2, +1, +1, +1 (10)
+4, +4, +3, +3, +2, +2, +1, +1, +1 (11)
At this point, you could have a +5 control, +5 disc offense stuff, and +5 c/d defense stuff, and still have 2 foci left over. So it does get the point where Foci are better if you are focused, just takes a while. Specialization definitely gives you a broader base, however.
I care about characters not being that divergent in ability when they spend the same amount of metagame points (i.e. refresh) in trying to get to the same place by different roads.
Most disappointing is the 'all elements are the same' aspect of evocation, meaning that spreading your specializations over multiple evocation elements (barring those you need to build a higher pyramid) is always a bad idea.
I also dislike how it's very easy for wizards to stack foci and specialization bonuses to get massive to hit scores, making them hit anything trivially, and to a lesser extent, making high powered combat a game of rocket tag.
I thought in the RAW it stated that for a point of refinement you could get 1 new element only with no more points of power or control.
At (2) you have an extra element and another point of control.
You start with 3 elements (I'm assuming you have Evocation), and you have both Control and Power options for all three elements. Power and Control bonuses use the same pyramid. You don't need access to another until you need a 7th spot. Someone did point out you can save up Refresh and then you don't have to spread things out as much.
I don't think I understand what you mean here.
By your diagram, what you are telling me is that you were saving a point of specialization to be used after buying another element with the refinement?
I thought in the RAW it stated that for a point of refinement you could get 1 new element only with no more points of power or control.
At (2) you have an extra element and another point of control.
But this is why wizards also have to take stress to bring out the big guns. Plus, a wizard can't hit anything if he doesn't know it's there.This line of argumentation is idiotic.
A bad guy with a rifle and a high stealth could take pot shots at a wizard all day.
Let's say you know Fire, Water, and Spirit, and have Evocation and two refinement in specialization.
Fire Control +2, Fire Power +1 with 1 refinement
Fire Control +2, Fire Power +1, Spirit Control +1, Spirit Power +1 with 2 refinement. You still have a whole 'nother element you haven't touched with specializations yet.
Buying an extra evocation element also gives you 1 specialization point.
Add a new element to your Evocation familiarity list. You also get one specialization for that new element.
P 182, in Refinement:
Though a few characters in Our World who do this just put the point of specialization anywhere, so plenty of people just let you add your point of specialization anywhere you want instead of on the new element.