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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Wolfwood2 on February 07, 2011, 10:18:09 PM

Title: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: Wolfwood2 on February 07, 2011, 10:18:09 PM
Suppose you wanted to use thaumaturgy to commuicate over a distance with someone.  Let's say the trapping is that the caster waves his hand over a mirror, it grows foggy, and his face appears in a reflective surface near the target.  They can then converse.  (This was a lot more useful before they invented cell phones.)  To me this feels like the "duplicate a skill use, ignoring that it's impossible" type of thaumaturgy, though I'm not sure what kind of skill it should be.  It's not really meant to be an attack or something that the target needs to defend against.

What complexity do you think it should be and why?

Does it fall under the Divination specialty, or if not then what?

How should it interact with thresholds?
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: bitterpill on February 07, 2011, 10:22:48 PM
Message Carrying Water Spirits who know the ways and will deliver messages in exchange for tea (because water spirits love a nice hot cup of tea). Seriously though I think a low level messenger spirit would be the lowest complexity way to do this.   
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: Warpmind on February 07, 2011, 10:27:44 PM
Me, I opted for making an Enchanted Item for this effect - a magic mirror with the ability to let my charcter communicate (sight & sound) with anyone/anything he seeks, provided there is a mirror near them...
So worth the item slots, IMO...
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: Imp on February 07, 2011, 10:28:04 PM
Perhaps it could be an item... sorta a "seeing stone" type.   You would need to create X number of mirrors and those mirrors would only be able to connect to each other
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: Wolfwood2 on February 07, 2011, 10:29:12 PM
Quote from: bitterpill on February 07, 2011, 10:22:48 PM
Message Carrying Water Spirits who know the ways and will deliver messages in exchange for tea (because water spirits love a nice hot cup of tea). Seriously though I think a low level messenger spirit would be the lowest complexity way to do this.   

Isn't "low level messanger spirit" just a trapping in this case?  It doesn't really matter whether you want to say you're talking through a foggy mirror, having spirits carry messages back and forth, or having your writing appear on a page in a remote location.  It's the same basic effect, just with different descriptive flavor text.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: Wolfwood2 on February 07, 2011, 10:32:03 PM
Quote from: Imp on February 07, 2011, 10:28:04 PM
Perhaps it could be an item... sorta a "seeing stone" type.   You would need to create X number of mirrors and those mirrors would only be able to connect to each other

Uh, that's not really answering my question.  Let's say the caster does not create and item and instead is doing a ritual.

This seems like an extraordinarily basic effect, the sort of thing that you wouldn't think twice if you saw a wizard snap off in fiction.  Is there some reason it shouldn't be possible for a Dresden-type caster?  And if not, what's the complexity?
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: Wolfwood2 on February 07, 2011, 10:34:30 PM
Quote from: Warpmind on February 07, 2011, 10:27:44 PM
Me, I opted for making an Enchanted Item for this effect - a magic mirror with the ability to let my charcter communicate (sight & sound) with anyone/anything he seeks, provided there is a mirror near them...
So worth the item slots, IMO...

Clearly you've determined what the complexity should be, since items are duplicating effects that Thaumaturgy or Evocation could achieve.  What did you decide the complexity should be and how did you decide?
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: devonapple on February 07, 2011, 10:39:51 PM
For reference, I'm including a link to the discussion from when I brought up a similar thing awhile back:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23572.0.html
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: Wolfwood2 on February 07, 2011, 10:47:15 PM
Quote from: devonapple on February 07, 2011, 10:39:51 PM
For reference, I'm including a link to the discussion from when I brought up a similar thing awhile back:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23572.0.html

Hmmm, that discussion seems to assume that both parties are working together to communicate.  I should probably explain where this would be coming from, storywise.

There's a middling powerful fae (like, with subordinates, but nowhere near a Lady or anything) based in the city, and a wizard wants to talk to him.  The wizard knows where the fae's home is and could just go there to talk to him, but that involves crossing some territory he doesn't want to cross.  So he decides to do the magical equivalent of placing a phone call instead.

He could potentially place an actual phone call, but for whatever reason he'd prefer to use magic.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: jybil178 on February 07, 2011, 10:50:08 PM
Quote from: Warpmind on February 07, 2011, 10:27:44 PM
Me, I opted for making an Enchanted Item for this effect - a magic mirror with the ability to let my charcter communicate (sight & sound) with anyone/anything he seeks, provided there is a mirror near them...
So worth the item slots, IMO...

Err...  That actually seems fairly outside the scope of a normal Enchanted Item.  Something like that would most likely fall under an Item of Power Instead.

Granted, a very POWERFUL wizard, who devoted enough Enchanted Item slots to get its combined complexity high enough ( which would probably take a decent number of enchanted items ) could probably get something along those lines, but would normally only work once a session, bar enough additional enchanted items to increase the number of times per session it could be used.

But in all honesty, something like this would most likely fall under the effects of a Thaumaturgical spell, every time, especially since you'd most likely require a symbolic link in order to find the person you were looking for..
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: bitterpill on February 07, 2011, 10:52:40 PM
I think the magic item he was talking about was a Item of Power with Ritual Divination and some Refinement or at least someone has done the samething with that set up.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: infusco on February 07, 2011, 10:54:40 PM
Well, basically, this is a ritual that mimics a straight forward action, namely talking to someone. In Thaumaturgy, distance itself is rarely a limiting factor.

What IS a limiting factor is the normal limitations of Thaumaturgy, namely that of a symbolic link. So you can't communicate with someone remotely if you don't have anything that is uniquely part of that person ... either an actual piece of him, like hair, or something that that person identifies with very strongly, like his 20 year wedding ring.

Other than that, the complexity of something like this is probably next to nil, like 2 or 3 maybe. Easily a single roll. This assumes the person isn't resisting. Otherwise, the minimum complexity would be (probably) their Conviction or Presence score plus two to compensate for Aspect usage.

Although if it crosses into the Nevernever, it might cost more, although I'm not sure.

Since you're establishing a visual link between the two sites, I'd definitely say Divination since you're seeing something that you wouldn't normally be able to see otherwise.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: bitterpill on February 07, 2011, 10:59:28 PM
So twin mirror would be easily as they are direct link to each other. You could probably set up a network of interconnected Mirrors with your wizard allies. 
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: devonapple on February 07, 2011, 10:59:43 PM
I'm sure the denizens of Downbelow will happily "link" you and your friend together. They just need both of your True Names and some blood...
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: Wolfwood2 on February 07, 2011, 11:00:15 PM
Quote from: jybil178 on February 07, 2011, 10:50:08 PM
Granted, a very POWERFUL wizard, who devoted enough Enchanted Item slots to get its combined complexity high enough ( which would probably take a decent number of enchanted items ) could probably get something along those lines, but would normally only work once a session, bar enough additional enchanted items to increase the number of times per session it could be used.

Remember that a practitioner can make enchanted items work beyond their "per session" uses merely by taking a point of mental stress per extra use.  For a non-combat item like a talkie mirror, the mental stress is usually trivial.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: Wolfwood2 on February 07, 2011, 11:06:32 PM
Quote from: infusco on February 07, 2011, 10:54:40 PM
What IS a limiting factor is the normal limitations of Thaumaturgy, namely that of a symbolic link. So you can't communicate with someone remotely if you don't have anything that is uniquely part of that person ... either an actual piece of him, like hair, or something that that person identifies with very strongly, like his 20 year wedding ring.

Other than that, the complexity of something like this is probably next to nil, like 2 or 3 maybe. Easily a single roll. This assumes the person isn't resisting. Otherwise, the minimum complexity would be (probably) their Discipline score plus two to compensate for Aspect usage.

Although if it crosses into the Nevernever, it might cost more, although I'm not sure.

Since you're establishing a visual link between the two sites, I'd definitely say Divination since you're seeing something that you wouldn't normally be able to see otherwise.

Ah, now that's actually very helpful.  It seems like the easiest way to do this would be to take a normal mirror, break it in half (so the two halves are sympathetically connected) and send the fae the other half.  Then they could talk through the mirror.  (Again, assuming reasons not to use a phone.)
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: jybil178 on February 07, 2011, 11:08:56 PM
Hehe, yeah, that would be fine, and work out perfect.  I was just weirded out thinking about the normal trappings and confines of an Enchanted Item, and was infected with an uncontrollable twitch to my left eye :P

But as far as a spell goes, I kinda like the idea I've seen in some popular eastern wizard culture references.

The basic idea, is you write your target a letter, most likely in a ritual circle, with homemade ink, and specialized paper.  Upon completion of the ritualistic folding of your finished and dried message, the note takes the shape of a bird, and flies away to its intended target.

Only problems with this, is first, you'd need some way to choose a "target" for your spell.  Without any way to truly ground who the intended recipient is, a communication spell of any type would be difficult.  But maybe, because the spell isn't truly you going to the target, or finding any information about them what so ever, you could instead just whisper the "Known Name" of the target, with the image of the person you are trying to send it to, as well as your best attempts to "Name" it.  Maybe the magic could find enough of a connection that it might find its way...

Another problem though, being that all forms of wizardly folk are suspicious and paranoid, is the message may be caught or tampered with.  Another complexity addition of complexity could cause the spell to only be received and read by its intended target.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: UmbraLux on February 07, 2011, 11:47:43 PM
I pretty much agree with infusco - complexity of one plus duration.  Some caveats:To prevent the last two items, I'd add a ward to the ritual.  Item #2 simply requires more power in the base ritual...enough to penetrate whichever barriers it finds.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: Warpmind on February 08, 2011, 12:01:09 AM
Quote from: Wolfwood2 on February 07, 2011, 10:34:30 PM
Clearly you've determined what the complexity should be, since items are duplicating effects that Thaumaturgy or Evocation could achieve.  What did you decide the complexity should be and how did you decide?

infusco pretty much got it. Far as I can tell from the rules, Complexity one plus Duration plus extra Power.
Title: Re: Thaumaturgy Communication Ritual
Post by: Kommisar on February 09, 2011, 04:29:38 PM
The kicker with this sort of spell are these three elements:

1)  Targeting
2)  Wards & Threshold
3)  Trust / Security

Anyone in the supernatural community is going to be aware of and take proactive measures to ensure that they are not easily targeted by long distance spells.  That magical message could just as easily be a trojan horse hiding an Exploding Head Death Ritual.  The sympathetically linked item is a far safer means for this very reason; you link to the item, not the being.  Think of it as a magical firewall.  So, unless this Fae is known to and VERY friendly with the PC wizard (and by friendly, I mean that he owes the wizard in a big way in some form or fashion) it will have to be through an item.  So, now the problem is getting the item to the target.  And even this posses a problem for a sufficiently paranoid Fae or wizard.  Which, by the fact that they are not dead, implies that they are indeed sufficiently paranoid.  After all, you could still target the item with a zone(s) effecting spell of some sort.

Wards would have to be pierced or bypassed if the target is behind them.  Sympathetic link helps a ton here.  Otherwise, you need to pump in enough shifts in the spell to break all the defenses that may be up.  Against a Fae middling at his home; expect this to be a hefty number of shifts.

Then there is trust.  How confident can either party be that they are indeed talking to the person they think they are?  This goes back to the sufficiently paranoid argument.

Finally, you wizards own security.  After all of the above, the wizard succeeds!  Hazzah!  Now, has the wizard also realized that this magical channel he has created is, indeed, a two way street?  I really hope that this Fae is indeed very friendly towards him (and, again, by friendly with the Fae I mean useful to his own machinations).  Otherwise, the wizard has opened himself up to all sorts of potential trouble.  While this connection is open, he might as well have given the target his true name!
(click to show/hide)

I would also like to reference another universe entirely and mention the Palantír from Tolkien's books.

So, as I see it, there is a good reason that you do not see much of this form of communication going on in the books.  And why the Wardens have a phone tree instead of something more magical.