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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: riplikash on February 03, 2011, 09:24:19 PM

Title: Extra effective aspects?
Post by: riplikash on February 03, 2011, 09:24:19 PM
Sometimes aspects just seem a little too static, i.e. tagging "grandpa taught me to shoot" gives just as much a damage bonus as pushing someone into a jet engine and tagging the "jet engine", or
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It feels like my players have little need to find effective aspects, they just need to find any aspect. Sure a more effective one might be more likely to get the GMs thumbs up, but it seems to encourage mediocre thinking, and makes aspects feel rather monotone. One thought I had was making some aspects be worth a bigger bonus, but I don't know if that is a good idea. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

This especially annoys me in combat. Why bother with explosions, pushing people in front of trains, and dropping buildings on people when you can just tag your primary aspect, a phase aspect, and some minor enviromental one like "slippery floor" and get the exact same effect?
Title: Re: Extra effective aspects?
Post by: bibliophile20 on February 03, 2011, 09:43:28 PM
For some of them, like, for example, the train or explosives, they're no such much an aspect as they are an environmental hazard; for the train, I'd literally run it as the PCs Maneuvering the target into place and then Invoking "Rail-Roaded," whereupon he has to defend against an attack from the train in addition to the attacks from the PCs.
Title: Re: Extra effective aspects?
Post by: Tallyrand on February 03, 2011, 09:57:36 PM
One very important thing to remember is that aspects only give a +2 when they're being applied to a role, if you're using them to control a narrative they can become MUCH more powerful.  For example, in general if you were to push someone and then tag JET ENGINE, unless it's important for that character to survive the storyteller would likely generally just kill him off.
Title: Re: Extra effective aspects?
Post by: devonapple on February 03, 2011, 09:59:13 PM
Quote from: Tallyrand on February 03, 2011, 09:57:36 PM
One very important thing to remember is that aspects only give a +2 when they're being applied to a role, if you're using them to control a narrative they can become MUCH more powerful.  For example, in general if you were to push someone and then tag JET ENGINE, unless it's important for that character to survive the storyteller would likely generally just kill him off.

For the cost of a Fate Point, of course.

Quote from: riplikash on February 03, 2011, 09:24:19 PM
Anyone have any thoughts on this?

As a GM, you are able to give a "thumbs up" to creative and appropriate Scene Aspect Declarations by requiring no roll, or requiring a very easy roll. Once the players have a lot of these Declarations made, they can free-tag a whole list of them for a big "combo" style attack, or with a Fate Point, any of these Aspects can be a means for them to Compel their opponent to surrender, or (in the case of mooks) just die.
Title: Re: Extra effective aspects?
Post by: sinker on February 03, 2011, 11:12:49 PM
Yeah you really have to remember that compels (and invocation for effect) are also a viable option for aspects.
Title: Re: Extra effective aspects?
Post by: Drachasor on February 04, 2011, 01:04:14 AM
Quote from: riplikash on February 03, 2011, 09:24:19 PM
Sometimes aspects just seem a little too static, i.e. tagging "grandpa taught me to shoot" gives just as much a damage bonus as pushing someone into a jet engine and tagging the "jet engine", or
(click to show/hide)

Another thing is it's really giving a bonus to hit.  I imagine the Jet Engine is going to have a lot more base damage than a pistol or the like.
Title: Re: Extra effective aspects?
Post by: TheMouse on February 04, 2011, 02:45:51 AM
Not everything is an Aspect. There's a tendency among certain crowds of Fate players to try to do everything with Aspects. You need to remember that Aspects are just one tool in a kit.

As mentioned above, environmental hazards. These can be used instead of or in addition to Aspects. The Fate Fractal is your friend.

Another option is that the train or jet engine is narrative spray paint over something getting Taken Out. "And then the monster got splattered by a train," sounds like a great end to a fight to me.
Title: Re: Extra effective aspects?
Post by: bitterpill on February 05, 2011, 01:39:51 AM
Im playing a mellee character who was constantly out of fate points and I have come up to a Significant (refresh) milestone. I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on aspects that might by compelled a lot for a fighter.

 Im currently useing





  
Title: Re: Extra effective aspects?
Post by: newtinmpls on February 14, 2011, 09:26:13 AM
"For example, in general if you were to push someone and then tag JET ENGINE, unless it's important for that character to survive the storyteller would likely generally just kill him off."

Didn't Mal do that in Firefly?
Title: Re: Extra effective aspects?
Post by: crusher_bob on February 14, 2011, 10:52:05 AM
I think that's sorta thinking about things 'backwards'.  The 'expectation' with aspects is that they are there to support the narrative, not direct world simulation.  That's why it's possible to take a consequence of 'sprained ankle' when someone is shooting at you.  Even though you took a consequence because of people shooting at you, the narrative you use is that you were dodging the gunfire, tripped, and sprained your ankle.

So, sorta the same thing this the jet engine.  If it's some who's not that important to the story, then a single attack augmented with an aspect can probably take them out, and you throw them into the jet engine right off and they die horribly.

But what if you were fighting someone who was very important, like Darth Vader?  Do you want the story to be:
Luke and Vader met up at the second death star.  Then, right off, Luke threw Vader into a jet engine and the fight was over.
No, Vader only goes into the jet engine after a long and drawn out struggle.

Admittedly, the DFRG is not supposed to be fully narrativist like that, but that is why 'strong' aspects don't seem to be the fight enders you want them to be.

---------------

Now, how to solve some of your problems with the system.  You could:

1
For certain extreme aspects (like the whole place being engulfed in flames, for example) you could allow a free fire related tag against everyone in the building every turn, instead of just a single free tag.  This works best in multi-zone environments, it forces people to move around, and makes creating zone borders an interesting thing to do with your action.

2
You could allow certain 'strong' aspects to give a +3 bonus, instead of a +2.  (Or possibly, you could allow an appropriate declaration to make the aspect 'strong'.  Since declarations are normally non-actions, this preserves the action economy.)

3
You can respond to boring re-use of aspects with a declaration like "ready for your shenanigans" if someone tries to use the same aspect over and over again against you.  This effectively counters the +2 from the aspect use as they apply their free tag to their roll.

4
You can try using a more limited fate point economy, making free tags much more important.  This means that any aspect used will tend to be something new, since it has to have been generated by a maneuver or declaration.
Title: Re: Extra effective aspects?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 14, 2011, 10:36:38 PM
You could also just be much harsher about when aspects can be invoked. But make sure that your players don't object before doing something like that.
Title: Re: Extra effective aspects?
Post by: Seb Wiers on February 14, 2011, 11:28:38 PM
Quote from: newtinmpls on February 14, 2011, 09:26:13 AM
"For example, in general if you were to push someone and then tag JET ENGINE, unless it's important for that character to survive the storyteller would likely generally just kill him off."

Didn't Mal do that in Firefly?

Yes, he did.  I'd say it was a rather extreme form of being Taken Out in a social conflict; Mal had NUMEROUS aspects to tag, and the guy didn't concede.  There were Consequences.  ;)