Huh. Personally, I'd expect someone who was dedicated enough to the Council and the Laws of Magic to become a Warden would be unlikely to give up on that sense of responsibility just because she lost her magic...
And I'm pretty sure both the GM and the other player are aware of the conflict, they like adversarial situations. I don't, but I'm in the minority so I can't really force the issue.
So, to sum up the suggestions so far that don't require huge morality shifts, favors or specifically Wizard's Constitution instead of the whole wizard package? Anything else?
Like I said, don't do the trade. Making a Loup Garou is something like a 32 or shifts at least...quite possibly more, but probably not more than 50 shifts. You could theoretically counter it with a ritual. This would require a lot of work, a lot of power, etc, etc. You could flavor the dispel as causing the curse to decay and fade away, making it even quite appropriate for Winter for what it is worth. In any case, there's no need to go ask Mother Winter for help; you DO have other options. If you have the Loup Garou contained, then there's no reason why you can't take time to research how to undo it.
In order to remove a Loup-garou curse, would take a similar level of fine magic... I think your ball park figure of 50 shifts Might be in the area of breaking the curse, but it would practically be a raw attack on the curse itself, which would most likely Kill the man underneath.. You'd also be in danger of altering his self on some level, at the very least, easily breaking ground into law territory and black magic.
Right now she's looking at trading her power for am Unmaking, but I'm open to other suggestions. Children are not an option, nor is anything else that would impede another's free will. But if anyone can figure something out, it's going to be this board. Thanks!
To undo the Loup Garou your going against the will of a very powerful entity im not sure if this canon but the very first Loup Garou was cursed by Luna (the moon goddess), at the very least your dealing with a curse put down by a god-like power on par with one of the Queens or a member of the High Sidhe to rouse the ire of godlike power the family of the cursed must of done something quite severe so given the nature of those sort of powers I bet that if you tried to counter-spell it you would find all sorts of fatal traps weeved into the binding like the landmines in wards. Even if you managed to counter-spell the curse then you will gained the ire of a god-like power or at the least a Powerful member of the high Sidhe who will if your lucky send her minions to punish you for you presumption and if your not come herself.
To undo the Loup Garou your going against the will of a very powerful entity im not sure if this canon but the very first Loup Garou was cursed by Luna (the moon goddess), at the very least your dealing with a curse put down by a god-like power on par with one of the Queens or a member of the High Sidhe to rouse the ire of godlike power the family of the cursed must of done something quite severe so given the nature of those sort of powers I bet that if you tried to counter-spell it you would find all sorts of fatal traps weeved into the binding like the landmines in wards. Even if you managed to counter-spell the curse then you will gained the ire of a god-like power or at the least a Powerful member of the high Sidhe who will if your lucky send her minions to punish you for you presumption and if your not come herself.
I personally think anyone capable of that level of spell would of put safeguards into the spell to stop it being dispelled like traps and landmines so though its doable in character to perhaps undo the spell it would be very dangerous and the sort of thing that should be done with more than one wizard and months of preperation. Does anyone know if there are any rules for leaving traps in your thamaturgy so they can't be dispelled without significant risk to the dispeller, if you do manage to dispell the loup garou with a ritual I would be fascinated to know how hard your gm would make the ritual,its the sort of thing I probably would wuse an entire secession on and get the entire party involved getting ingredients, researching etc.
There's a canonical Loup Garou that was made by someone that is dead (human). So it isn't necessarily done by a god-like power. Also, like Tbora said, old gods aren't so active anymore....and besides, I know I'd feel better fighting a jerk old god that did such a curse rather than signing away my capabilities to defend people or the like.
Are you sure?
I don't see St. Patrick as a wizard. I see him as saying "God, send the serpents out of Ireland" and them going because god wills it. And then saying "God, curse this man and his line until the End of Days" and it happening because god wills it.
If St. Patrick wasn't a wizard then the power of the spell had to come from somewhere.
Richard
1. Doesn't seem like the White God's MO when you look at the Knights of the Cross.
2. If it was his direct doing, then he was being a jerk and yeah, opposing jerk behavior even from a guy who normally seems pretty ok is the right thing to do. If he gets in a huff about it, then he's STILL being a major jerk regarding that issue.
3. No reason to think St. Patrick couldn't have been a wizard and religious. Heck, no reason to think he even had True Faith. Saints aren't necessarily chosen for good reasons. The most stringent selection system is used for Knights of the Cross.
In any case, the Loup Garou curse is a monstrous and evil thing to do. It kills innocent people; doesn't matter how bad the person who gets the curse is, it KILLS INNOCENT PEOPLE. It then causes innocent family members to get punished as well. Again, it's monstrously evil. Getting rid of it is a good thing.
Generational curses are biblical.
As for the Knights, didn't Micheal at one point (Grave Peril) basically say: "if you made a deal with that thing of your own freewill I can't help you against it?".
Then again, it could be him trying to teach Patrick a lesson about hubris.
There's no evidence for him being a wizard - not in any legend. Saints, at least those with power, are supposedly picked by god (as opposed to the archangels handing out the swords).
Saying "Well there's no evidence against it so it might be true" is an invalid as talking about all those mailmen that Billy killed. No, there's nothing in the books about him assuming wolf form to chase and eat mailmen, but there's nothing that says he doesn't.
It serves as a warning - do blah and your line will be cursed to the end times. And I'm not encouraging the creation of them - just pointing out that from my reading of that book it doesn't appear that mortals can either curse them or cure them.
The MacFinn line probably encountered countless wizards over the years and none of them could end the curse. MacFinn himself had someone construct a three ringed magic circle to contain the beast. Someone built "a cage for demonic demigods and archangels" but couldn't end the curse. If someone could build a cage to keep Jake in (or out) but not in the curse, well, to me that says that only Great Powers could do it.
To undo the spell your going to need something akin to the power that created it is the theory the only way to get that much power is either through leveraging the lives of other (either through lust or human sacrafices), leveraging the power of a sponsor (the white god etc) or spending years on the enchantment. Im not going to argue about complexity cost beyond the fact that the only ritual bigger than it I could think of is a Dark Hallow which involved the sacrafising of hundreds of souls. Unless your willing to become the eternal pawn of a sponsor or break the laws of magic then I see no way for a single wizard to disenchant that level of spell in the timeframe of a normal game.
The curse would be at least with thamaturgy +20 complexity for the duration (to the nth generation) and +26 complex for defeating the persons concequences, then there are the powers which the spell give which include supernatural to mythic everything which is going to be at least another 40-50 complexity. So were dealing with about 100 complexity with thamaturgy as a bare minimum so to counter spell the ritual would they not have to match at least that amount of complexity. There is also the fact that the curse is probably not mortal magic and possibly behaving in ways not explained by normal spell behaviour which might make getting the proper research for the spell next to impossible or at least much more difficult.
even with the 1 complexity idea this would mean that you could make a character pretty much undefeatable for thier life time for about 60 complexity, if a PC said he was going to pull this kind of ritual and another PC was ok with being changed would you allow it in your game
At the very least any transformation spell includes the shifts for taking someone out and you would argue that either for 1 shift of power you can have one shift of refresh or that it costs no complexity, well with the no complexity theory that makes the loup garrou curse the same complexity as the dark hallow as you can have infinite refresh worth of powers and even with the 1 complexity idea this would mean that you could make a character pretty much undefeatable for thier life time for about 60 complexity, if a PC said he was going to pull this kind of ritual and another PC was ok with being changed would you allow it in your games.
The reason Im 'overpricing it' is because ritual like this have a horrific potential for PC to abuse, so the pricing stratergy for this ritual should keeps PCs from getting that level of power without degrading themselves and breaking the laws of magic. Otherwise your find the PC have gone and turned themselves into gods and ruined your universe.
Bah it would be great fun to have one of your parties characters be a Loup Garou. No need to make them into a NPC. I mean come on just think of all the challenges they (and the party) would have to overcome too keep it in control. Moment the character loses it, it becomes a killing machine toward anything living around them..... There is a reaon why they call it a curse you know.
She's still part of the Council, though, which means she and the Lawbreaker are going to come into conflict. The Lawbreaker's player knows the mechanics better than I do and doesn't mind the idea. I hate it. Haaaaate it. I don't like fighting PCs, when I'm playing a game I'd rather solve some problems than get into lethal quarrels with the other people around me (please, no wrongfun chiding). This is the one problem this outcome didn't fix, but it's a biggie.