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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: jybil178 on January 31, 2011, 07:56:01 AM

Title: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: jybil178 on January 31, 2011, 07:56:01 AM
This is probably a very silly question, but I think I may have misunderstood something for quite a while now...

Basically, upon my first read over of the rules, I was under the assumption that you had three consequences for each of your stress tracks... So one mild, one moderate and one severe for physical, social and mental...

Please tell me that I'm not the only one who thought this at very least... Just looking at it makes me wanna shudder, as I see things being a lot more dangerous now... Its just I thought things were one way, and now that I take away a big amount of buffer that I THOUGHT was there, I just see a much more vulnerable beast... And I mean, COME ON.... Harry ALWAYS had plenty of mental and physical consequences throughout nearly all of his casefiles...  :o :o >.<  :o :o
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: Drachasor on January 31, 2011, 07:59:19 AM
You get an extra mild consequence when your skill that gives you stress boxes is at 5, 7, 9, etc.
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: devonapple on January 31, 2011, 08:00:54 AM
You probably weren't alone, but you are now correct in that you only have one mild, one moderate and one severe, period (unless you get extra ones for higher skills).

I myself was sure for awhile that a 2-stress spell took up one's first AND second stress box. Also that all veils had to all be done via Thaumaturgy, and that they were only half of their shifts in effectiveness. Any number of little misunderstandings get ironed out on contact with other players.
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: jybil178 on January 31, 2011, 08:16:57 AM
Hehehe... lovely... sounds like a lot of fun >.< the mistakes you make when you first begin learning something are the hardest to cope with.. You have your entire mind set around what you can and can't do because of your limits, and when you realize your limits are only 1/3rd of what you thought they were for the longest time, it kinda makes your whole concept of things blow up... Now I just need to reform my ideas, and heal...

wow... that must have been at least a moderate mental consequence on myself >.< oiii.... maybe worse ;P
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: sinker on January 31, 2011, 08:31:50 AM
You do also have a fourth consequence slot (extreme). Whether or not you want to use it is another matter....
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: BumblingBear on January 31, 2011, 08:45:33 AM
Not to hijack the thread here ::hijacking the thread::

how would one take consequences with 1 stress damage?  For instance, your wizard is casting evocations and each one takes 1 mental stress since she is not going above her conviction.

How can one take a consequence for 1 stress?  Note down one of them and then on the second stress take the consequence? 

If there's no way to take 1 stress consequences or save them up or something, a wizard would have to cast 1 shift and 3 shifts above her conviction respectively in order to take a minor and moderate consequence.
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: devonapple on January 31, 2011, 08:59:30 AM
How can one take a consequence for 1 stress?  Note down one of them and then on the second stress take the consequence? 

You don't. There's no saving them up like that. You waste a potential stress sink if you cast a 1-stress spell and can't pay for it without a consequence.

If you cast a 1-stress spell, but the only way you can pay for it is with a 4-shift Consequence, you use the 4-shift Consequence. In that situation, a Wizard would have good motivation to game the system and add 3 shifts to make it a full 4-stress spell, thereby using all of the consequence slot.
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: BumblingBear on January 31, 2011, 09:25:36 AM
You don't. There's no saving them up like that. You waste a potential stress sink if you cast a 1-stress spell and can't pay for it without a consequence.

If you cast a 1-stress spell, but the only way you can pay for it is with a 4-shift Consequence, you use the 4-shift Consequence. In that situation, a Wizard would have good motivation to game the system and add 3 shifts to make it a full 4-stress spell, thereby using all of the consequence slot.

Hmmmmm.  And my group wonders why I apply tons of aspects and maneuvers before making an evocation attack... lol.
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: jybil178 on January 31, 2011, 06:28:05 PM
You don't. There's no saving them up like that. You waste a potential stress sink if you cast a 1-stress spell and can't pay for it without a consequence.

If you cast a 1-stress spell, but the only way you can pay for it is with a 4-shift Consequence, you use the 4-shift Consequence. In that situation, a Wizard would have good motivation to game the system and add 3 shifts to make it a full 4-stress spell, thereby using all of the consequence slot.

I'm not sure your understanding the entirety of the mechanics of the costs of spell casting... Spellcasting isn't like all the other forms of taking stress. For every shift of power you go above your conviction, you have to pay an entire DOT of stress, along with the first. So if you cast a spell that is 4 shifts stronger than what you normally could cast, it will take you out completely, unless you use a consequence to help buffer it, which functions pretty much as normal for spellcasting.

If I'm wrong on this, please be sure to let me know.  I know its weird that spellcasting is the only mechanic that can inflict more then one stress at a time, but I do know it specifically stats this is how its done in certain spots, while being actually very vague and foggy on the point, making it seem like spells work along the normal stress mechanic in others.
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: devonapple on January 31, 2011, 06:31:53 PM
If I'm wrong on this, please be sure to let me know.  I know its weird that spellcasting is the only mechanic that can inflict more then one stress at a time, but I do know it specifically stats this is how its done in certain spots, while being actually very vague and foggy on the point, making it seem like spells work along the normal stress mechanic in others.

I would love a page number or two citing this. Like I said, I used to think that's how it worked, too, and I got that impression from somewhere, but it ended up seeming strange to me that magical stress worked differently from other stress.

As it is, I do consider it TWO separate stress hits when someone 1) casts a spell, 2) misses the Discipline check, then 3) opts to take those uncontrolled shifts as backlash to keep the spell under control.

If I had spells take up all the stress shifts indicated, our game would get quite unpleasant - our spellcasters already take consequences every few conflicts, and this would chew them up even more thoroughly than I already do.
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: Drachasor on January 31, 2011, 06:35:52 PM
As it is, I do consider it TWO separate stress hits when someone 1) casts a spell, 2) misses the Discipline check, then 3) opts to take those uncontrolled shifts as backlash to keep the spell under control.

I don't think it is two separate ones, since how they decide to handle the uncontrolled shifts affects the outcome of the action.  Seems to me it is the same thing, though I guess the rules aren't 100% clear.
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: devonapple on January 31, 2011, 06:41:04 PM
I don't think it is two separate ones, since how they decide to handle the uncontrolled shifts affects the outcome of the action.  Seems to me it is the same thing, though I guess the rules aren't 100% clear.

I'm happy to be overruled with a rule (or sufficient community feedback), but my current line of thought is that they are two separate energy investments:
1) one to create the "spell construct" and then, after it is released,
2) "holy cats, it's gone pear-shaped!"
3) then another separate effort of will to exert control to keep the spell intact

How have other GMs ruled the stress cost of Spell Backlash?
A) Did you tack it into the original stress to cast the spell?
B) Or make it a new Mental Stress hit?
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: jybil178 on January 31, 2011, 07:15:04 PM
I will give you that the general text of the book is VERY unspecific with this.  I was never sure for the longest time, and maybe this isn't even a really for sure... Maybe the idea of what they wanted got scrambled somewhere..  But anywhere, off to citing...

pg 411,
Decide how many shifts of power you want
to put into the spell. Take 1 mental stress,
plus 1 for each point of power greater than
your Conviction modified by any power
bonuses from a focus item.


pg 250,
Decide how many shifts of power you want
to put into the spell. You take mental stress
for calling up power—the minimum is one
point of mental stress. The cost increases
if you reach for power greater than your
Conviction, inflicting additional mental
stress equal to the difference (so a spell with
power three higher than your Conviction
would inflict 4 points of mental stress).


pg, 256
Every shift of power you summon past your
Conviction costs one additional point of mental
stress during casting; so a spell with a power
rating three higher than your Conviction would
inflict four points of mental stress when cast
(one for summoning up to Conviction, plus one
for each additional step on the ladder). Just like
any other type of stress, this could force your
wizard to take consequences in order to keep
himself upright.


Basically, in all these examples, and I could look for maybe a few more, they refer to the mental stress in Points, rather than a 1, 2, 3, or 4 ect,  stress hit, which is how they refer to taking stress through out the rest of the book.  It also never goes into bigger number examples using a higher mental stress hit.  All examples of going higher, are referred to using a consequence to help take off some of the stress.  Sorry >.<


And here is a citation of backlash, with a different wording, using stress hits like everywhere else in the book, rather than points of mental stress...


pg, 256
There are basically two kinds of trouble:
backlash and fallout. Backlash affects the
wizard; fallout affects the environment or other
nearby targets. Like everything else, backlash
and fallout are measured in shifts—in this case,
the difference between your failed Discipline roll
and the gathered power. The worse the failure,
the more the spell’s energy goes haywire, and the
worse the effects get.
You get to choose how much backlash you
absorb, with the rest going to the GM as fallout.
Particularly self-sacrificing wizards may choose
to take some or all the excess as backlash—especially
if there are allies nearby who might bear
the brunt of the fallout of the failed spell.
Any uncontrolled power taken as backlash
remains a part of the spell and does not reduce
its effect. Fallout is different: every shift of
fallout reduces the effect of the spell.
Backlash means that the spell energies run
through the wizard, causing injury or other
problems. This manifests as shifts of stress,
which could require the taking of consequences
in the usual way. Fortunately, you can choose to
take the backlash as either physical or mental
stress (but not split between both), which means
your wizard can keep his mental stress track
open for more spellcasting if he needs to.
Example: Harry must cast a spell with a
Superb (+5) control target without using
incantations or focus items. Without these
benefits, he fails the Discipline roll by 5. He
doesn’t want to hurt anyone around him or
cause any unintended environmental effects,
and he needs the spell to succeed in full, so he
chooses to take a 5-stress physical backlash. He’s
already taken some physical stress during this
scene, so he ends up having to take a moderate
consequence of Utterly Exhausted in
addition to a 1-stress physical hit. Ouch. But at
least the spell is still cast at full power.

Its a bigger example, but I didn't want to leave anything possibly important out, hehe >.<  I know this won't "help" persay, but it should hopefully clear a few things up..
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on January 31, 2011, 07:17:56 PM
Just to bring this back to Consequences for a second, certain Stunts give you additional, one track only, Consequences.

The two I was able to find quickly are:
Resilient Self-Image: You may take two additional mild mental consequences
No Pain, No Gain: You may take two additional mild physical consequences

So a wizard with a Resilient Self-Image could take three mild consequences to power his magic.  Four if he had a Superb Conviction.

Richard
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: bitterpill on January 31, 2011, 07:19:39 PM
The made it so they give only one outside the raw, does armour count against backlash if you have toughness powers
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: devonapple on January 31, 2011, 07:27:36 PM
Armor does not count against Backlash (nor would any "mental armor" minimize the mental stress of spellcasting), though if the WIzard opted to let the spell energy escape as Fallout, then physical armor *might* apply to certain environmental affects, depending on how the GM defined it.

I will give you that the general text of the book is VERY unspecific with this.  I was never sure for the longest time, and maybe this isn't even a really for sure... Maybe the idea of what they wanted got scrambled somewhere..  But anywhere, off to citing...
Basically, in all these examples, and I could look for maybe a few more, they refer to the mental stress in Points, rather than a 1, 2, 3, or 4 ect,  stress hit, which is how they refer to taking stress through out the rest of the book.  It also never goes into bigger number examples using a higher mental stress hit.  All examples of going higher, are referred to using a consequence to help take off some of the stress.  Sorry >.<

I think I had originally been reading "points" the same as you are, but it was inconsistent with everything else in the book, so I realigned my interpretation so it more closely matched the way damage shifts work. We can theorize that it was a proofing error.
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: jybil178 on January 31, 2011, 07:29:14 PM
Just to bring this back to Consequences for a second, certain Stunts give you additional, one track only, Consequences.

The two I was able to find quickly are:
Resilient Self-Image: You may take two additional mild mental consequences
No Pain, No Gain: You may take two additional mild physical consequences

So a wizard with a Resilient Self-Image could take three mild consequences to power his magic.  Four if he had a Superb Conviction.

Richard


Yeah, I've noticed that these have been changed, cause I keep hearing people say this.. The hard copy of the book as well as more recent PDFs have been updated, to show..

Resilient Self-Image: Your sense of self is strong, enabling you to endure more psychological punishment than most. When facing torture or other extreme interrogation techniques, You may take two additional mild mental consequences.

No Pain, No Gain has also changed. Just don't feel like quoting it at the moment, its been knocked down to a single mild consequence, and does not say in the stunt that it is stackable.


Something else of note, is that currently anyway, there are no cannon stunts that give you mental or social consequences, mild or otherwise.  I'm actually very curious if they just didn't put them in place cause No Pain, No Gain set a precedent, or if they believe it has room for being broken in the system...  I mean, every book does have to worry about silly problems, like word count... *shrug* I'd love a more official response to this, but I doubt my little old post will get any such attention...
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: devonapple on January 31, 2011, 07:31:50 PM
Something else of note, is that currently anyway, there are no cannon stunts that give you mental or social consequences, mild or otherwise.  I'm actually very curious if they just didn't put them in place cause No Pain, No Gain set a precedent, or if they believe it has room for being broken in the system...  I mean, every book does have to worry about silly problems, like word count... *shrug* I'd love a more official response to this, but I doubt my little old post will get any such attention...

They do encourage us to make up our own Stunts, so they may have left these as an exercise for the alert reader.
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: jybil178 on January 31, 2011, 07:39:39 PM
Armor does not count against Backlash (nor would any "mental armor" minimize the mental stress of spellcasting), though if the WIzard opted to let the spell energy escape as Fallout, then physical armor *might* apply to certain environmental affects, depending on how the GM defined it.

I think I had originally been reading "points" the same as you are, but it was inconsistent with everything else in the book, so I realigned my interpretation so it more closely matched the way damage shifts work. We can theorize that it was a proofing error.

A proofing error is quite possible.  Another reason I'd like to get an official response or something on it.  At this point, my only two arguments are that the term is used in nearly every explanation on spellcasting I've found.  Technically it doesn't prove anything, as the entire magical section could have been overlooked on this one particular detail.... And btw, I may seem like i'm trying to be sarcastic, but I'm honestly not... I have a bad habit of being misunderstood at points like that...

The only other one, is one that I can't really say very well, and the more I think about it, Kinda fits more and more in line with harry :P Basically, as you begin to lose more and more of your mental stress, and you get closer to the bottom of the barrel, it would seem more likely that you spells wouldn't be getting more and more powerful.. But again, at the bottom of the barrel, when is Harry most dangerous at?
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: devonapple on January 31, 2011, 07:48:06 PM
The only other one, is one that I can't really say very well, and the more I think about it, Kinda fits more and more in line with harry :P Basically, as you begin to lose more and more of your mental stress, and you get closer to the bottom of the barrel, it would seem more likely that you spells wouldn't be getting more and more powerful.. But again, at the bottom of the barrel, when is Harry most dangerous at?

Exactly. I can see a caster desperately putting more shifts into spells in hopes of a quicker resolution to the conflict. It's a plausible justification for what I feel is a minor metagaming decision.
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on January 31, 2011, 07:54:17 PM
Yeah, I've noticed that these have been changed, cause I keep hearing people say this.. The hard copy of the book as well as more recent PDFs have been updated, to show..

Resilient Self-Image: Your sense of self is strong, enabling you to endure more psychological punishment than most. When facing torture or other extreme interrogation techniques, You may take two additional mild mental consequences.

Darn - I'm either going to need to get around to getting the release PDFs or keep the books in easy reach.  That's one more area where they differ.

Richard
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: sinker on January 31, 2011, 08:25:12 PM
The big reason I would think that you deal with spellcasting stress the same as all other stress is that if you were taking four individual points of stress it would make it pointless to use consequences (which is a very clear option). For example if you were casting a spell that inflicted two stress on you (individually) then using a mild consequence would only be able to soak one of those, as each point of stress is essentially a separate attack. For that matter a moderate consequence would only soak one of those...

I figure it's a little vaguely written, however since it could go either way it's probably best to assume that it works the same way as everything else under the KISS principle.

As far as the backlash I figure it's a separate thing simply because it can be a separate kind of stress. Wouldn't make much sense if they were the same attack (essentially) but were mental (for the spell) and physical (for the backlash) stress.

And going back to Bear's post, if you used a consequence to soak a 1 stress casting, it would soak that one stress and then you're done. You can't save stress to fill up a consequence. Kinda worth it if you really need the spell and you are only using your mild, but usually not at all worth it.
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: devonapple on January 31, 2011, 08:35:24 PM
I've sent an email to Fred about the Mental Stress question, as well as to find out if I've been properly charging the Stress for Backlash situations. I will post any answer I receive.
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: devonapple on January 31, 2011, 08:40:56 PM
Okay, official Word of Fred is:

1) Spellcasting Mental Stress works the same as any other Stress, despite any perceived terminology difference (you only mark the one Stress box)
2) Mental Stress from casting a spell *is* separate from Mental Stress taken as Backlash, so they are two separate Mental Stress hits

Thank you, Fred!
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: jybil178 on January 31, 2011, 09:39:32 PM
Oiii...  Really hate looking at something, and then realizing while it says one thing, it really is meant to be something else... >.<  I hate being right on the letter, but being wrong cause the letter was just done wrong, lol... Ahh well... more power to myself and the players... Just one head game after another, hahahaha
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: jybil178 on January 31, 2011, 09:43:25 PM
pg. 251,
Example: Harry Dresden is beset by a
charging Red Court vampire intent on taking
his fool head off. He’s not really happy about
that, so he chooses to blast it off the planet with
a fire evocation.
Harry has a Conviction of Superb (+5)
and a Discipline of Good (+3). His player—
Jim—decides he doesn’t want to mess around
with this thing too much, so he chooses to
summon up 8 shifts of power for the spell.
Harry has a power specialization in fire magic,
so his Conviction is treated as Fantastic (+6)
for the purposes of the spell. That means that
casting this spell will give him a 3-stress mental
hit—one stress for everything up to 6, and then
two more to get to 8.


The ONLY time in the entire example of magic, that it talks in terms of a stress hit, rather than points and dots of stress damage... >.<  *sigh*
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: Drachasor on January 31, 2011, 10:26:09 PM
Okay, official Word of Fred is:

1) Spellcasting Mental Stress works the same as any other Stress, despite any perceived terminology difference (you only mark the one Stress box)
2) Mental Stress from casting a spell *is* separate from Mental Stress taken as Backlash, so they are two separate Mental Stress hits

Thank you, Fred!

Makes sense.  I was convinced that number 2 must be the case after thinking about it and your and Sinker's posts.  Having them be the same thing would make it way too expensive.
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: devonapple on January 31, 2011, 10:32:39 PM
Makes sense.  I was convinced that number 2 must be the case after thinking about it and your and Sinker's posts.  Having them be the same thing would make it way too expensive.

Depending on circumstances, it can actually be a *great* benefit to get that shot of stress all at once - it means you are more likely to be able to funnel it neatly and efficiently into one or more Consequence slots. The attrition of getting multiple 1- and 3-stress hits means you are occasionally "wasting" part of a Consequence. I can't come up with an illustration of how the numbers work, but trust me, we've gone over it in combat, and several times th eplayers would have benefited if I had let them take the Backlash and Spells stress as one self-contained hit.
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: TheMouse on January 31, 2011, 10:57:45 PM
One interesting effect of the way Consequences work is that you have some incentive to really dish out the hurt as you yourself get hurt.

By the time your stress track is full and you're missing your Mild Consequences, you take the same Consequence for a spell at (Conviction) shifts as you do for (Conviction +3). Then once that's gone, you take the same Consequence for (Conviction) shifts as you do for (Conviction +5). So, assuming you can actually control those shifts of power, when you're really hurt you'll tend to really throw your all into it.
Title: Re: How many Consequences in all do you have?
Post by: Drachasor on January 31, 2011, 11:52:09 PM
Depending on circumstances, it can actually be a *great* benefit to get that shot of stress all at once - it means you are more likely to be able to funnel it neatly and efficiently into one or more Consequence slots. The attrition of getting multiple 1- and 3-stress hits means you are occasionally "wasting" part of a Consequence. I can't come up with an illustration of how the numbers work, but trust me, we've gone over it in combat, and several times th eplayers would have benefited if I had let them take the Backlash and Spells stress as one self-contained hit.

Eh, I think that would be the rarer circumstance though.  Usually I'd think you can manage perfectly well with consequences and boxes, adjusting as needed...especially if you save fate points or taggable aspects to adjust your discipline on the fly as needed.