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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: BumblingBear on January 30, 2011, 10:35:39 AM

Title: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on January 30, 2011, 10:35:39 AM
Soooo....

I'm trying to figure out how sponsored thaumatergy is actually all that great.

Specific. Examples.

The biggest problem I can see is that a lot of really good thaumatergy spells require quite a few shifts in order to accomplish.

So sure, Ancient Mai would be hell on wheels with this ability, but my little ol' character with 4-6 shifts of available magic without taking more mental stress (for now) doesn't seem to be able to accomplish much other than:

1. Creating a quick and dirty circle or ward
2. Replacing a really bad skill with a 4 to 6 shift skill for one roll
3. Creating an aspect that is a bit more sticky than simple evocation

If I've missed something here, please enlighten me.  Also, please include the actual mechanics of the spell since I'm still wrapping my head around it.

Gracias
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: bitterpill on January 30, 2011, 05:42:40 PM
I wonder if you can do stuff like sacrafise concequences to power up thamautergy at evocation speed that might deal with the power shortage and would be quite nice with regeneration.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 30, 2011, 07:04:17 PM
Thaumaturgy can do a couple of things that evocation can't.

For one, it can target opponents who aren't immediately present. So a character with thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation can continue throwing spells at a guy who's hiding behind a zone border, although he'll have to forgo his spells' weapon ratings.

For another, it can create effects that simply aren't possible with evocation. For example, you can conjure weapons and actually use them. Guns will require a special sponsor ability, though.

It also might have a far longer duration. But I'm away from my books right now, so I can't be sure.



Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: sinker on January 30, 2011, 09:30:18 PM
Another thing it can do is healing. I wrote up a healing spell for my Angelic Knight based pretty directly on the Reiki healing spell. Of course the character was all about taking physical consequences (as backlash) to power her spells so it was a bit on the high power side.

Quote
Lay On Hands
Type: Divine Evocation, Defense(ish)
Power: 6 shifts for a mild consequence, 8 for moderate,
       14 for severe
Control: 6 (Great Discipline + 2 Divine Defense Focus)
       remaining would be backlash
Target: One ally (not self)
Opposed by: Target's Conviction if unwilling
Effect: As the Reiki healing spell, reduces a severe
       consequence to a moderate, a moderate
       consequence to a mild, or allows the target
       to ignore a mild consequence. Consequences
       still take up their original slot, however this
       also allows the target to begin recovery.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: bitterpill on January 30, 2011, 09:42:20 PM
Dosen't taking physical stress to heal physical stress seem self defeating?
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: bibliophile20 on January 30, 2011, 10:07:07 PM
Not really; stress goes away fairly quickly, but consequences do not, and the spell listed here helps reduce the healing time on those big and nasty consequences which take sessions to heal--healing which starts after you've had medical attention.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: sinker on January 30, 2011, 10:17:42 PM
It was kind of the whole character concept. She was a holy warrior that takes on the stigmata at various stages as she draws on that power (I was using backlash to reflect that). She had Soulfire and a couple of holy powers but the rest of her refresh was devoted to being able to shrug off the physical damage she was dealing to herself by casting. I was eventually going to pick up inhuman recovery specifically for that damage.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: bitterpill on January 30, 2011, 10:47:58 PM
Do Summon on the fly would you need to have a portable cirlce carried around with you? or becuase whatever you summoned would be weak would that not matter.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: sinker on January 30, 2011, 10:54:00 PM
The whole point of the circle is to keep it from you till you can bind it. I would think that whatever you summoned would likely be bound to you already since we're talking sponsored magic. At the very least it'd be bound to your sponsor.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Kommisar on January 31, 2011, 12:48:10 AM
One the wizards in my game is a Native American Shaman with Sponsored Magic: Coyote.  We worked it up and it allows him to do Thaumaturgical Shapeshifting at evocation speed (but only into natural animals that he has had some contact with).  It also gives him access to Echos of the Beast when he transforms into that animal.  Essentially, Coyote is proving the animal form software for him.

It's been handy for him so far.  Especially when he transformed into a bear when he had two thugs grappling him.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: arete on January 31, 2011, 12:52:01 AM
Summer magic allows for evoc speed minor healing, and at 6 shifts you can give 2 fragile
Aspects that buff physical actions.  It is very handy.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on January 31, 2011, 01:11:04 AM
Summer magic allows for evoc speed minor healing, and at 6 shifts you can give 2 fragile
Aspects that buff physical actions.  It is very handy.

Indeed, and note that normally with Evocation you can only give one aspect (non-fragile with more than 3 shifts for a buff at the crappy rate of 1 exchange per extra shift).  Thaumaturgy at the speed of Evocation allows for far longer-lasting spells than normal (really, Soulfire should be taking this into account with Conjuring and such in some manner).

Another way to look at it, is think of any effect an enchanted item could do.  If it falls under your Sponsored magic, then you can do it like an evocation.  For instance, Sponsored Magic: Amun-Ra could create true Sunlight as an evocation.  Perfect for those dang vampires.

If you have a Sponsored Magic that allows some kind of divination, then you could potentially grab someone in a fight (use maneuver to represent that), and tag that for a Thaumaturgy-like Evocation spell that lets you learn something about them (like the Catch potentially for someone thing you have to personally know -- you got the whole guy right there for a thaumaturgy ritual, can't be that hard at that point!)

Winter can be used to put a guard to sleep for instance.

Also, these things say that they can be used "as an element in evocation."  That means that if you specialize in Winter Magic as evocation or make a focus, you can do cold stuff, sleep, decay, etc all as the SAME element.  That's pretty cool.  So even if a lot of that is stuff that's evocation anyhow, having it all as a singular element is pretty helpful.  At least, that's my read on that part.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: bitterpill on January 31, 2011, 01:25:57 AM
What is the rule for refinement when you only have summer magic, i know that tecnically you get 4 focus item slots for sponsored magic but can you buy more and can you gain specialisations beyond the ones listed in the sponsored magic guide.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on January 31, 2011, 01:33:05 AM
What is the rule for refinement when you only have summer magic, i know that tecnically you get 4 focus item slots for sponsored magic but can you buy more and can you gain specialisations beyond the ones listed in the sponsored magic guide.

Well, I don't think you can buy specializations...at least it wouldn't do much good given the limited scope of those abilities.  A specialization would cover everything you get from the sponsored magic.  I think you could certainly get more items.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: sinker on January 31, 2011, 01:35:05 AM
Technically sponsored magic is ritual/channeling, so specializations are against the RAW. Focus items however are a perfectly adequate use of a refinement for a channeler/ritualist (and therefor a sponsored caster as well).
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on January 31, 2011, 04:18:51 AM
Another thing it can do is healing. I wrote up a healing spell for my Angelic Knight based pretty directly on the Reiki healing spell. Of course the character was all about taking physical consequences (as backlash) to power her spells so it was a bit on the high power side.


Well, if you and your GM are ok with that powerlevel of a spell... I was about to get into how the spell was changed quite a bit to be easier, but then I looked over everything and saw that its a lot closer then i thought... But the ability to just go and tack blacklash, and it not matter, cause you can fix it right back up just seems... wrong...  And plus, even though you may be doing thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation, I'd think you wouldn't be able to add in your evocational focus items into it.. I would think you'd need to add in a Thaumatergical foci of some sort, or that one would be needed..  But thats just my own, personal standing point.. If you and your GM are ok with it, then by all means.  Now, might I ask what kind of magic you are using in general, or if it is pure Soulfire sponsorship magic, just like Unseelie or Seelie magic?
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: sinker on January 31, 2011, 06:38:47 AM
For one thing I can't target myself (says so in the targets) so any backlash is mine for as long as it lasts. Secondly, one of the things that I've come to understand is that it's not "thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation," It's "thaumaturgy with evocation's methods and speed" (Evil Hat's words, not mine) which means it's not just faster thaumaturgy, it's evocation that is capable of thaumaturgic effects. Now I guess that's up to interpretation, however that was the call our group made.

It was sponsored magic: Soulfire, but I always hate that Dresden's use of soulfire seems to be the only possible interpretation so I was playing it a little differently (More sponsored and more direct essentially).
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on January 31, 2011, 08:41:04 AM
I like your interpretation.

Unfortunately, it would not work for my character.  :(

------------------------------------------------------

To everyone:

I have actually come up with something my character /could/ do that would be thematically appropriate.

Curses.  Specifically ones meant to bleed out an enemy or cause them pain.

I was thinking that this could mechanically make their defense rolls or maybe attack rolls at -2.  I'd prefer defense rolls for x amount of rounds.

How would one go putting a spell together like that?  3 shifts for the effect and x shifts for the duration?
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: toturi on January 31, 2011, 09:27:08 AM
Does Soulfire actually have "thaumaturgy with evocation's methods and speed" in its description?
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on January 31, 2011, 09:39:12 AM
I like your interpretation.

Unfortunately, it would not work for my character.  :(

What is your sponsored magic?

To everyone:

I have actually come up with something my character /could/ do that would be thematically appropriate.

Curses.  Specifically ones meant to bleed out an enemy or cause them pain.

I was thinking that this could mechanically make their defense rolls or maybe attack rolls at -2.  I'd prefer defense rolls for x amount of rounds.

How would one go putting a spell together like that?  3 shifts for the effect and x shifts for the duration?

You can't do something broad-spectrum like that necessarily.  Not for striking the guy, anyhow, as best I understand it.  You can give them an aspect, that can be tagged once, giving a +2 to hit.  The rules a little vague here, I think, but I believe you need 3 shifts of power or their conviction, whichever is more, then you'd roll to hit.  This should last for a scene or until tagged, I believe.  4 shifts makes it sticky so it can be invoked and compelled, shifts beyond that make it last longer....at least this is my understanding.  I believe, since Thaumaturgy lets you place multiple aspects with one spell, you should be able to do this as an evocation, but you need to apply the shifts for each Aspect separately (so 6 shifts for 2 aspects that can each be tagged once and then they are gone, 8 shifts for two sticky aspects).  The rules don't quite go over how to handle this...but I think you'd make one discipline roll to apply both.

If someone is badly injured, you could inflict a curse as a Consequence (if they aren't injured, then you aren't likely to get enough shifts).  Great way to get a long lasting consequence for cheap...if they are REALLY BADLY injured, you could even make them take the curse as an extreme consequence.

You could also apply a Block on their actions.  You could apply a curse that acts as a block to the enemy's ability to attack, move, maneuver, OR block (you pick one).  Once they beat the block though, it's gone.  Hmm, I THINK you could make such a block into armor though, using evocation rules (evocation blocking is written as just shields primarily, so this is unclear).  That would make it so the enemy inflicted less damage on any attack, and it would stick around.  Doing this wouldn't be that different from using evocation to do it though.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on January 31, 2011, 09:40:15 AM
Does Soulfire actually have "thaumaturgy with evocation's methods and speed" in its description?

No, it's pretty lame.  Given how great it is at creating things, they should have made it really good at conjuring stuff that sticks around....but maybe they thought that was OP.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on January 31, 2011, 09:40:36 AM
Does Soulfire actually have "thaumaturgy with evocation's methods and speed" in its description?

Pretty much all sponsored magic works that way.

I doubt it's actually under the "soulfire" heading in the book, but the rules/mechanics for casting instant thaumatergy using sponsored magic works the same as an evocation spell.

This is part of my indifference to the ability.  Most good thaumatergy spells take LOTS of shifts in order to accomplish.

Casting using evocation grants a wizards access to from 1 - 6 shifts most of the time without taking undue mental stress.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on January 31, 2011, 09:45:52 AM
What is your sponsored magic?

Pele, goddess of volcanoes, violence, lightning, and dance.

Quote
You can't do something broad-spectrum like that necessarily.  Not for striking the guy, anyhow, as best I understand it.  You can give them an aspect, that can be tagged once, giving a +2 to hit.  The rules a little vague here, I think, but I believe you need 3 shifts of power or their conviction, whichever is more, then you'd roll to hit.  This should last for a scene or until tagged, I believe.  4 shifts makes it sticky so it can be invoked and compelled, shifts beyond that make it last longer....at least this is my understanding.  I believe, since Thaumaturgy lets you place multiple aspects with one spell, you should be able to do this as an evocation, but you need to apply the shifts for each Aspect separately (so 6 shifts for 2 aspects that can each be tagged once and then they are gone, 8 shifts for two sticky aspects).  The rules don't quite go over how to handle this...but I think you'd make one discipline roll to apply both.

If someone is badly injured, you could inflict a curse as a Consequence (if they aren't injured, then you aren't likely to get enough shifts).  Great way to get a long lasting consequence for cheap...if they are REALLY BADLY injured, you could even make them take the curse as an extreme consequence.

You could also apply a Block on their actions.  You could apply a curse that acts as a block to the enemy's ability to attack, move, maneuver, OR block (you pick one).  Once they beat the block though, it's gone.  Hmm, I THINK you could make such a block into armor though, using evocation rules (evocation blocking is written as just shields primarily, so this is unclear).  That would make it so the enemy inflicted less damage on any attack, and it would stick around.  Doing this wouldn't be that different from using evocation to do it though.

If all that is accurate, why would I not be better off just placing a maneuver using athletics or something?  That does not cause me mental stress.

It seems like for my character, "thaumatergy at the speed of evocation" is super lame.  The only thematically appropriate thing I could do that would actually help and be worth the effort would be to apply two temporary aspects at the same time.  The problem is that to do so, I'd have to take /MORE/ than 1 mental stress at this point.

That would be dumb.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: toturi on January 31, 2011, 09:56:13 AM
Pretty much all sponsored magic works that way.

I doubt it's actually under the "soulfire" heading in the book, but the rules/mechanics for casting instant thaumatergy using sponsored magic works the same as an evocation spell.

This is part of my indifference to the ability.  Most good thaumatergy spells take LOTS of shifts in order to accomplish.

Casting using evocation grants a wizards access to from 1 - 6 shifts most of the time without taking undue mental stress.
I got the impression that unless that a sponsored magic specifically has thaumaturgy at evo speed and method, it doesn't. IIRC, nearly every sponsored magic has that phrase, the only exception is Soulfire.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on January 31, 2011, 10:02:03 AM
I got the impression that unless that a sponsored magic specifically has thaumaturgy at evo speed and method, it doesn't. IIRC, nearly every sponsored magic has that phrase, the only exception is Soulfire.

I guess that would make sense....

But since soulfire is all about creation and bolstering things, it doesn't seem like a healing spell would be inappropriate.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on January 31, 2011, 10:19:13 AM
Ahh, ok, stuff you can do easily.

Infuse yourself with rage/violence, placing multiple maneuvers on yourself that you can tag.  1 mental stress and you can have two aspects to tag.  Also, you could give yourself the power of The Dance (great with the ladies and in some other social settings).  Imho, it is 3 power for each aspect you can tag (once tagged, that particular aspect goes away).

You can create wards easily enough, whether traps/mines or merely ones that strike back (standard ward..but that seems to fall under violence to me, personally).  Traps and mines are definitely a go though, and they last until sunrise by default.

One thing you can do is add aspects to a scene, so you can have lightning or fire going around making things dangerous (which can be tagged or invoked).  That's not as easy to do with an athletics roll (which tends not to cover a whole zone).  Oddly enough, the rules seem to indicate doing it to a zone and doing it to a person is just as difficult.

You could do a block on a whole group of bad guys, if you invoke some aspects, it could be pretty darn high.  Flavor it as making them have to do everything to a dance which makes it far harder to hit anything...I think thaumaturgy should make this have a longer duration assuming no breach.  Theoretically, you could make it into an armor effect, reducing the damage of everyone.

Divinations to look for power lines (lightning), volcanoes (ok, unlikely to be useful), information on dances, and violence can be done at a moment's notice, not requiring minutes to do.  Most of the DCs for this are easy.

If your performance isn't great, you can clearly substitute a magic spell for dancing.

You should be able to force a ghost out as an evocation, so that it is vulnerable to violence.

You can enrage things, filling their minds with violence.  You could turn a strike or protest into a riot.  Verbal infighting with bad guys into blows potentially.  Make a maneuver on one of them "you are filled with violence" and compel it with a fate point.

You could conjure lava to make a zone barrier.

You have quite a bit of options.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on January 31, 2011, 10:20:39 AM
I guess that would make sense....

But since soulfire is all about creation and bolstering things, it doesn't seem like a healing spell would be inappropriate.

On the fence about healing.  Certainly it should be good at creating lasting things on the fly.  By RAW though, it isn't good at these things.  It lets you have ALL of thaumaturgy and fire effects.  Pretty lame there, but the power against toughness and holiness is nice.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on January 31, 2011, 10:55:06 AM
Ahh, ok, stuff you can do easily.

Infuse yourself with rage/violence, placing multiple maneuvers on yourself that you can tag.  1 mental stress and you can have two aspects to tag.
Or I could do it with a roll and not have to spend any mental stress.  Granted, I'd have 1 less tag, but 2 stress vs a potential 12+ stress is not a very good tradeoff for one mental stress.

Quote
Also, you could give yourself the power of The Dance (great with the ladies and in some other social settings).  Imho, it is 3 power for each aspect you can tag (once tagged, that particular aspect goes away).
Or once again, I could roll athletics for "fancy dance moves" or something similar.



Quote
You can create wards easily enough, whether traps/mines or merely ones that strike back (standard ward..but that seems to fall under violence to me, personally).  Traps and mines are definitely a go though, and they last until sunrise by default.
I covered that in my OP:  

1. Creating a quick and dirty circle or ward

Not impressed.

Quote
One thing you can do is add aspects to a scene, so you can have lightning or fire going around making things dangerous (which can be tagged or invoked).  That's not as easy to do with an athletics roll (which tends not to cover a whole zone).  Oddly enough, the rules seem to indicate doing it to a zone and doing it to a person is just as difficult.
I can already do that with standard evocation (which I have).

Quote
You could do a block on a whole group of bad guys, if you invoke some aspects, it could be pretty darn high.  Flavor it as making them have to do everything to a dance which makes it far harder to hit anything...I think thaumaturgy should make this have a longer duration assuming no breach.  Theoretically, you could make it into an armor effect, reducing the damage of everyone.
Once again - evocation already has this covered.

Quote
Divinations to look for power lines (lightning), volcanoes (ok, unlikely to be useful), information on dances, and violence can be done at a moment's notice, not requiring minutes to do.  Most of the DCs for this are easy.
Now this one may actually be useful.  My GM gave me the aspect "Near your goddess" or something like that in my last fight since a Temple of Pele was like a mile away.  This gave me a passive +1 to all of my attack rolls in combat, which was awesome, not OP, and totally thematically appropriate.
(Big hand to my GM if he reads this.  That was awesome.)

Quote
If your performance isn't great, you can clearly substitute a magic spell for dancing.
I covered this in my OP too:

2. Replacing a really bad skill with a 4 to 6 shift skill for one roll

It's potentially useful.  My character tends to let others do the talking in social situations.  He just gets ripped on or forced to take drugs.

Quote
You should be able to force a ghost out as an evocation, so that it is vulnerable to violence.
Ok, this is the second interesting possibility you brought up.  I will have to give that one more thought.
However, couldn't I attack one with spirit evocations anyway?  I'm not sure.

Quote
You can enrage things, filling their minds with violence.  You could turn a strike or protest into a riot.  Verbal infighting with bad guys into blows potentially.  Make a maneuver on one of them "you are filled with violence" and compel it with a fate point.
I could probably do that with the magic skill roll too.  Like for say... intimidation or something.

Quote
You could conjure lava to make a zone barrier.
My evocation is stronger.

Quote
You have quite a bit of options.

Yeah, but the "thaumatergy at the speed of evocation" thing still seems kind of lame.  I primarily took sponsored magic for the character development and potential plot arcs that may come of it.

If I had just spent those 3 refresh in refinement, my (combat oriented) character would probably be much, much more powerful.  I've yet to see any /significant/ evidence to the contrary.

It gives me a few more options in game, which I like.  For combat though, the uses seem limited.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on January 31, 2011, 11:27:49 AM
Or I could do it with a roll and not have to spend any mental stress.  Granted, I'd have 1 less tag, but 2 stress vs a potential 12+ stress is not a very good tradeoff for one mental stress.

You cannot place multiple aspects on yourself in one exchange without Thaumaturgy; it's flat-out impossible.  You can only do it during combat with a magic item or sponsored magic.

Or once again, I could roll athletics for "fancy dance moves" or something similar.

Eh, I'd give a big penalty if I was the GM and someone was trying to use Athletics instead of Performance for dancing.  The two are quite different.

[on wards]I covered that in my OP:  

Not impressed.

Invoke or tag some aspects and you are looking at making an extremely powerful block.  That's huge if you have to run away.

I can already do that with standard evocation (which I have).

Granted.

Once again - evocation already has this covered.

Evocations have short durations and you increase them by 1 exchange per shift spent just on duration.  Thaumaturgy lets you go up the time chart per shift, so they can last a much longer time.

I covered this in my OP too:
...
It's potentially useful.  My character tends to let others do the talking in social situations.  He just gets ripped on or forced to take drugs.

Don't underestimate the usefulness of being able to do more in social settings.


Ok, this is the second interesting possibility you brought up.  I will have to give that one more thought.
However, couldn't I attack one with spirit evocations anyway?  I'm not sure.

I think so, but making it vulnerable means EVERYONE can attack it and it should be vulnerable to anything physical such as maneuvers, environment aspects, etc.

I could probably do that with the magic skill roll too.  Like for say... intimidation or something.

Subtly influencing someone's mind (talk to your GM about whether it violates a Law or not if that's a concern) is nice because they won't necessarily be able to tell you had anything to do with it.  It lets you create internal squabbles without them being able to point a finger at you.

My evocation is stronger.

You'd be casting it like an evocation, my read is that evocation focuses and bonuses for Pele Magic (a Pele focus for instance) would apply to Thaumaturgical Effects done like Evocation.  So it can be just as strong.  Like a ward, this can be really nice for running away or you can use it to split up the enemy.

Yeah, but the "thaumatergy at the speed of evocation" thing still seems kind of lame.  I primarily took sponsored magic for the character development and potential plot arcs that may come of it.

If I had just spent those 3 refresh in refinement, my (combat oriented) character would probably be much, much more powerful.  I've yet to see any /significant/ evidence to the contrary.

If you never do Thaumaturgy normally, then sure, you are right.  It would have been better to take refinement for more focus, etc.  Thaumaturgy is pretty useful though, and there are some big rituals you could do even with that someone narrow focus, as well as magical items you can make.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on January 31, 2011, 12:22:30 PM
^^^ You made some excellent points, thank you. :)

I have some things to think about now.

Making all of my enemies dance as an armor effect on all of their attacks actually sounds pretty awesome now that I think about it.

Theoretically, that would be like... 4shifts for an armor of 2 (-2 to all of their attack rolls I believe since it happens before contact) and then 1 shift per escalated time frame via the table in YS for thaumatergy, right?

Actually, it would be 2 more shifts for a zone...

Actually, this would be a really expensive spell.  We're look at 4+2+2 minimum which is 8 shifts.  Ouch.

Never mind. :(
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: bibliophile20 on January 31, 2011, 03:17:35 PM
Making all of my enemies dance as an armor effect on all of their attacks actually sounds pretty awesome now that I think about it.
The most annoying part would be the passerby looking for the Bollywood film crew.  ;)
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on January 31, 2011, 06:13:17 PM
^^^ You made some excellent points, thank you. :)

I have some things to think about now.

Making all of my enemies dance as an armor effect on all of their attacks actually sounds pretty awesome now that I think about it.

Theoretically, that would be like... 4shifts for an armor of 2 (-2 to all of their attack rolls I believe since it happens before contact) and then 1 shift per escalated time frame via the table in YS for thaumatergy, right?

Actually, it would be 2 more shifts for a zone...

Actually, this would be a really expensive spell.  We're look at 4+2+2 minimum which is 8 shifts.  Ouch.

Never mind. :(

Worth it if there are a lot of enemies.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on January 31, 2011, 07:01:04 PM
Well, from what I've seen, most people immediately get taken in on sponsored magic by the thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation.  At first you think its easily one of the most powerful, easily abusable powers in the setting. Then you realize, wait... What exactly CAN I do with this?

The answer, while potentially being still as broad as thaumaturgy normally would be, is significantly less potent.  For the most part, you just have to be clever and quick on your feet to get the most use of it.  Drachasor actually mentioned a lot of the ideas I'd thought of before to try to make use of it, as well as some I quite hadn't yet.  I'm very surprised, or I guess actually I'm not really, that you dismissed so many of his ideas.

But it comes right down to the idea, that thaumaturgy isn't really that useful for direct combat, at the speed of evocation or otherwise.  Any effects that would cause direct damage against your opponents would most likely be better off being a simple evocation blast.  The best benefits you could get, are ways to indirectly effect the combat, and better arrange things for you and your party to succeed...  But what YOU are looking for, I'm sorry, but these are not the droids you are looking for ;P  It just isn't...  So if you chose Sponsored Magic for Thaum at the speed of Evo, I'm sorry... You need to start looking at other advantages to having a sponsor.  Because what a sponsor really does, is really a whole lot more >.<
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Kommisar on January 31, 2011, 07:32:58 PM
I think the point is the "Thaum at Evoc speed" is going to be more useful for some characters than others.  For a full on wizard with both Evoc and Thaum already its usefulness is in the more subtle uses and less in the straight-up, damage dealing combat arena.  But, now that I am really sitting here thinking through other, non-damage dealing uses, I can see how someone can really use this to good effect.  The divination uses could get scary quick with a smart player!  "Oh, I'm sorry, did I just bump into you there on the sidewalk."  And just happen to pull of a nice ritual in that heart beat.

Now, to a pure Thaumaturgist or Ritualist, this is a massive asset for obvious reasons.

So, it's all relative.  Your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on February 01, 2011, 12:06:59 AM
As I said before, I am not a power gamer.  At least I didn't choose sponsored magic to be a power gamer.

My problem is mainly with the shifts of complexity necessary to do anything with thaumatergy at the speed of evocation.

I could help my team with some of these spells, but I'm much better off just waiting, multiplying taggable aspects, and then blasting a mob for 27 stress.

::shrug::

I've already got a full fledged wizard in my group and he does lore and thaumatergy stuff a /lot/ better than I could hope to.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Moriden on February 01, 2011, 05:16:28 AM
Apologies if this was already brought up.

Quote
My problem is mainly with the shifts of complexity necessary to do anything with thaumatergy at the speed of evocation.

I could help my team with some of these spells, but I'm much better off just waiting, multiplying taggable aspects, and then blasting a mob for 27 stress.

::shrug::

Okay so say you have summer magic. you get Biomancy at evocation speeds. you cast a rote Biomantic self alteration, so its not a violation of the laws. for 6 shifts you can get two taggable aspects. duration like one round, so who cares right,? its a little better then just naval gazing but not much. Heres the thing that nearly any dm wont let you do but is what makes this situation absurd, and I'm fairly certain is RAW valid. You use the time duration chart from thaumaturgy while using the evocation ability to be boosted by further spells. so you wakeup cast your buff , and then cast your second rote of extend the first spell. Moveing 5-6 steps on the duration chart is a huge increase in time you do that two or three times and the spell will now last years. repeat this process multiple times a day and now you have nearly infinite tags on whatever aspects you can justify. Same thing works with defensive blocks and what not.


Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: devonapple on February 01, 2011, 05:22:50 AM
repeat this process multiple times a day and now you have nearly infinite tags on whatever aspects you can justify. Same thing works with defensive blocks and what not.

But not infinite free tags, of course. The RAW are pretty clear that one Aspect = one free tag, even in Thaumaturgy, even with Thaumaturgy durations (though you are right about having Thaumaturgy durations apply to Sponsored Magic Evocations).

YS 265: "If the intent is to create a temporary aspect that can be tagged more than once (remember that normally you’d only get the benefit of the tag once and have to invoke after that), simply chain two or more maneuvers together in the same spell, each inflicting the same aspect or a similar variant. In other words, if you want to take advantage of two tags against a target of Good Conviction, you’ll need to set up two maneuvers, for a minimum complexity of 6 (3 for each, as per above). As wizards are usually low on fate points, this option allows you a little more mileage without having to worry about impacting your fate point budget."
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Moriden on February 01, 2011, 05:36:08 AM
Quote
But not infinite free tags, of course. The RAW are pretty clear that one Aspect = one free tag, even in Thaumaturgy, even with Thaumaturgy durations (though you are right about having Thaumaturgy durations apply to Sponsored Magic Evocations).

You are correct and that quote is one of the ones I'm referencing. what the character would be doing is using a complexity 6 spell to get 2 free tags, as your quote lists in the example
Quote
In other words, if you want to take advantage of two tags against a target of Good Conviction, you’ll need to set up two maneuvers, for a minimum complexity of 6 (3 for each, as per above).
and then boosting the duration of the spell to "sufficiently long". since your tress track clears every scene you just do this every scene until you have as many taggable aspects as you want. Its horribly broken yes, i doubt any st will allow it, but its there in the rules.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: devonapple on February 01, 2011, 05:43:41 AM
You are correct and that quote is one of the ones I'm referencing. what the character would be doing is using a complexity 6 spell to get 2 free tags, as your quote lists in the example  and then boosting the duration of the spell to "sufficiently long". since your tress track clears every scene you just do this every scene until you have as many taggable aspects as you want. Its horribly broken yes, i doubt any st will allow it, but its there in the rules.

Oh, dear, I think I follow you now... how hard would that be to Counterspell?
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on February 01, 2011, 05:50:13 AM
Apologies if this was already brought up.

Okay so say you have summer magic. you get Biomancy at evocation speeds. you cast a rote Biomantic self alteration, so its not a violation of the laws. for 6 shifts you can get two taggable aspects. duration like one round, so who cares right,? its a little better then just naval gazing but not much. Heres the thing that nearly any dm wont let you do but is what makes this situation absurd, and I'm fairly certain is RAW valid. You use the time duration chart from thaumaturgy while using the evocation ability to be boosted by further spells. so you wakeup cast your buff , and then cast your second rote of extend the first spell. Moveing 5-6 steps on the duration chart is a huge increase in time you do that two or three times and the spell will now last years. repeat this process multiple times a day and now you have nearly infinite tags on whatever aspects you can justify. Same thing works with defensive blocks and what not.




If I didn't do this more than twice, I think my GM would probably allow it.

My character is sufficiently paranoid this would be thematically appropriate too.

Wow.  That's a pretty cool idea. I did not even think of that.  Going into social encounters I could cast several free tags on myself to use etc.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Moriden on February 01, 2011, 05:52:17 AM
where a st to allow it... well that depends on how you want to do the math. theoretically its a bunch of 6 shift spells boosted lets say 12 for duration. which means its either a 6/12/18 shift spell, and you've got like 40 of them up. dispelling one even if you can wont serve much purpose, unless you don't do it right and you cause the spell to backlash. the player will just tag as many of them as he needs to survive the backlash though, so thats really not a win for you.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on February 01, 2011, 06:20:07 AM
Hate being the one to ask questions, but could you give some citation to where you have read that you can go back, and start adding things to an already cast spell?  It just seems to me, I keep examples all over the place stating that you can do things, but then going on to mention that they have to be cast within the same spell, such as a pretty powerful ward.  I might just be overlooking what your thinking of though, but I'd be very curious, hehe..
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on February 01, 2011, 06:20:28 AM
Quote
and then boosting the duration of the spell to "sufficiently long". since your tress track clears every scene you just do this every scene until you have as many taggable aspects as you want. Its horribly broken yes, i doubt any st will allow it, but its there in the rules.

It's as broken as heck.  Personally as a GM I'd say you can have ONE magical effect that gives you taggable maneuvers on you at a time.  Otherwise it is insane.  Of course, RAW, you can stack them to insanity and beyond.
Quote
Hate being the one to ask questions, but could you give some citation to where you have read that you can go back, and start adding things to an already cast spell?  It just seems to me, I keep examples all over the place stating that you can do things, but then going on to mention that they have to be cast within the same spell, such as a pretty powerful ward.  I might just be overlooking what your thinking of though, but I'd be very curious, hehe..

They are talking about casting the same spell over and over and over to give them X taggable aspects each time.  Do that a dozen times and you have a huge number of tags you can invoke at once or at any time during that day.  Crazy-broken, but legal.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: devonapple on February 01, 2011, 06:25:22 AM
Hate being the one to ask questions, but could you give some citation to where you have read that you can go back, and start adding things to an already cast spell?  It just seems to me, I keep examples all over the place stating that you can do things, but then going on to mention that they have to be cast within the same spell, such as a pretty powerful ward.  I might just be overlooking what your thinking of though, but I'd be very curious, hehe..

Not adding things, technically - simply casting the spell over and over. Simply a repeat of the same Aspect-granting Thaumaturgical Maneuver, re-cast whenever the spellcaster's stress tracks clear out. The question is: how many such enchantments/buffs would a GM allow at a time on one target.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on February 01, 2011, 07:00:37 AM
As long as a player does not try to munchkin out, I don't see a reason why it would be necessary to make house rules on this.

I plan on trying this in my next gaming session for 1 set of two taggable aspects for social engagements and 1 set of two taggable aspects for combat.

I can cast those two spells, then use my last two mental stress in that scene to extend them both.

I don't see this as broken, because if the GM really wanted to, he could throw a petty thug or two at me after having done this in a scene and I'd have to take consequences just to defend myself.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on February 01, 2011, 07:15:25 AM
As long as a player does not try to munchkin out, I don't see a reason why it would be necessary to make house rules on this.

I plan on trying this in my next gaming session for 1 set of two taggable aspects for social engagements and 1 set of two taggable aspects for combat.

I can cast those two spells, then use my last two mental stress in that scene to extend them both.

I don't see this as broken, because if the GM really wanted to, he could throw a petty thug or two at me after having done this in a scene and I'd have to take consequences just to defend myself.

There's going to be a house rule one way or another.  Either all the players (other wizard in the party) are going to agree to limits more or less, which is a defacto House Rule, or the GM will lay one down.  Personally, I recommend the latter just for the sake of clarity.  Remember, the wizard can do this sort of thing as a ritual in the morning, potentially; he just can't do it as easily and as frequently as you (needs all that prep time).
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on February 01, 2011, 07:43:31 AM
There's going to be a house rule one way or another.  Either all the players (other wizard in the party) are going to agree to limits more or less, which is a defacto House Rule, or the GM will lay one down.  Personally, I recommend the latter just for the sake of clarity.  Remember, the wizard can do this sort of thing as a ritual in the morning, potentially; he just can't do it as easily and as frequently as you (needs all that prep time).

Indeed.  Thanks for pointing that out.

If they want to, Wizards can be just as OP.  They just can't be as lazy about it. lol :)
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: sinker on February 01, 2011, 08:11:11 AM
There's a reason why this actually isn't RAW. Everyone keeps forgetting that it's not "Thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation." It's "Thaumaturgy with evocation's means and speed." Which means it's really just evocation that is capable of some of thaumaturgy's effects. So the thaumaturgic duration chart is actually not appropriate.

Doesn't mean you can't do this exact thing using normal thaumaturgy though....
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on February 01, 2011, 08:21:47 AM
M'kay, I think I get it now... I guess I just misunderstood, because it sounded the original poster of the current subject was talking about casting a spell, then using a second spell to extend the duration of the spell he cast just before hand.

But yeah.. That seems pretty.. broken, or at least having a lot of potential for it.. But really, if you think about it (while its not really in RAW) wouldn't it be harder to place so many spells in technically the same place, IE yourself/ your soul?  So maybe you could consider it, that with each spell already on yourself, the next becomes more difficult or complex to place, because your running low on metaphysical room... Now if you have a spell that places three aspects on yourself, then you decide to put a smaller one aspect spell, it'd only be the start of the increase.. but if you got those four aspects from four separate spells, then with my idea, the final spell would come around at an extra 3 complexity... Does something like that make sense to anyone else, and or balanced?
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Moriden on February 01, 2011, 04:38:29 PM
Quote
M'kay, I think I get it now... I guess I just misunderstood, because it sounded the original poster of the current subject was talking about casting a spell, then using a second spell to extend the duration of the spell he cast just before hand.

Pg 259 prolonging spells. Weather you get to use the thaumaturgy or evocation duration charts is well... vague. Personally i make the practitioner use both, ie one shift for each additional exchange the spell can be used [no i do not require them to be consecutive], and one shift per boost on the thaumaturgical duration chart. I'm not sure i can really recommend that method or not as the power level of game i am comfortable running is likely much higher then most peoples.

I had the thought that i should probably say that i do not allow any variation of the infinite aspect loop in my games, i only allow the first iteration, you can have your 1-3 aspects at sufficiently long duration, or your armer/block at sufficient duration, but you cant boost the power of the armer spell after it was cast only the duration. 
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on February 01, 2011, 08:06:25 PM
Pg 259 prolonging spells. Weather you get to use the thaumaturgy or evocation duration charts is well... vague. Personally i make the practitioner use both, ie one shift for each additional exchange the spell can be used [no i do not require them to be consecutive], and one shift per boost on the thaumaturgical duration chart. I'm not sure i can really recommend that method or not as the power level of game i am comfortable running is likely much higher then most peoples.

I had the thought that i should probably say that i do not allow any variation of the infinite aspect loop in my games, i only allow the first iteration, you can have your 1-3 aspects at sufficiently long duration, or your armer/block at sufficient duration, but you cant boost the power of the armer spell after it was cast only the duration. 

And your only using this particular rule, in the Evocation sections, because you are casting thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation, correct?
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: sinker on February 01, 2011, 08:14:15 PM
Pg 259 prolonging spells. Weather you get to use the thaumaturgy or evocation duration charts is well... vague.

1. YS259 is part of evocation, and refers specifically to evocation.

2. A quote from YS259:
Quote
Summon one shift of power per additional
exchange you want the spell to last,
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Moriden on February 01, 2011, 08:48:31 PM
Quote
1. YS259 is part of evocation, and refers specifically to evocation.

Your useing thaumaturgy at evocation speeds and methods so you can use the prolonging option. weather your extending it one exchange or one step on the time chart is the question. personally i dont see anything in the raw saying that you have to use either one, so i require people to use both. your interpretation and mileage may vary.

Quote
And your only using this particular rule, in the Evocation sections, because you are casting thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation, correct?

Yes. otherwise it would only extend the spell one exchange per success, while i personally don't require those exchanges to be consecutive most gms probably will.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Kommisar on February 01, 2011, 08:49:50 PM
Well, I will point out two non-crunchy elements to this whole "Load up on the Taggable Aspects" thing.

1)  I got your counter.  My garden hose.  Or a rain storm.  You can layer as many magical effects over yourself as you wish... but a hit with the hose is washing it all off.  For the bare minimum 3 shifts per tag, they are not surviving a good dowsing of running water.

2)  Just like the crafter carrying around 700 shifts of magic on his person; you are going to GLOW to the supernatural world.  I'm not sure how some of you guys are running your games; but in mine (and what I have taken away from the novels) is that drawing undue attention to yourself is not smart.  As a GM/ST or whatever, if one of my players did this, I would let them know upfront that the consequences of such is a LOT more random encounters with all sorts of strange things.  And not all of them straight up fights either!

You would be a walking "Disturbance in the Force" if you laid it on thick enough.  Echos of you would ripple through the Nevernever.  

Have fun with that!!!   ;D
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Moriden on February 01, 2011, 08:59:12 PM
Quote
Have fun with that!!!   Grin

I know i would. :P
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: sinker on February 01, 2011, 09:03:42 PM
Your useing thaumaturgy at evocation speeds and methods so you can use the prolonging option. weather your extending it one exchange or one step on the time chart is the question. personally i dont see anything in the raw saying that you have to use either one, so i require people to use both. your interpretation and mileage may vary.

Yes. otherwise it would only extend the spell one exchange per success, while i personally don't require those exchanges to be consecutive most gms probably will.

The big issue that I have is that the prolonging spells section states specifically how you extend the duration. By exchanges. I don't get why the thaumaturgic duration would come in at all. We're using evocation (even if it is a thaumaturgic effect) and an evocation rule that increases the duration specifically by exchanges.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on February 01, 2011, 09:05:20 PM
The big issue that I have is that the prolonging spells section states specifically how you extend the duration. By exchanges. I don't get why the thaumaturgic duration would come in at all. We're using evocation (even if it is a thaumaturgic effect) and an evocation rule that increases the duration specifically by exchanges.

You use the Evocation rules for strength and casting, but as far as I can tell you should use the Thaumaturgy rules for the effect of the spell, and part of the effect is the duration.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on February 01, 2011, 09:48:30 PM
WELL... hmmm... This is rather interesting...

pg. 288, paragraph two of "What You Can Do With It"

But this isn’t always about finding the weak
spot in an enemy’s armor. Sometimes the power
source is instead more potent (or at least faster)
when directed against certain types of problems,
such as Summer’s ability to do more potent
healing effects (the sponsor takes care of all that
pesky biological know-how) and the ability to
do certain things with the effects of thaumaturgy,
but at the speed of evocation.


This in PARTICULAR is very interesting....

pg. 290,

Seelie (Summer) Magic
Drawing on the power of the Summer Court,
you’re able to cast spells that fit its essential
nature: wildness, birth, growth, renewal, fire.
These magics are under the sway and watch
of the Queens of Summer (Lady, Queen, and
Mother); making use of it will inevitably catch
their notice. If you think the Summer Court is
all warmth and light, consider that unbridled
growth favors an ebola virus just as much as it
does a pear tree.

Cost: 4 refresh for the package, not to mention
approval from one of the greater powers of
the Summer Court, such as Queen Titania or
Mother Summer. Reduce this cost by 1 if you
have Evocation or Thaumaturgy; reduce the cost
by 2 if you have both.

Benefits: Standard sponsored magic benefits
(page 288). Summer magic is particularly effective
against faeries of the Winter Court; downgrade
the effectiveness of any Toughness ability
the target has by one step (Mythic Toughness
becomes Supernatural, Supernatural becomes
Inhuman, Inhuman goes away) when using this
magic against a Winter Court enemy.

In addition, Summer magic may be used as
an element for evocation, allowing evocation
spell effects that encourage wildness, birth,
growth, renewal, and warmth. This includes
the ability to produce effects along the lines of
biomancy (page 284) with less of a requirement
for biological expertise in the spellcaster—the
powers of Summer already understand biology
pretty well and will do the heavy lifting for the
caster—but with an evocation spell’s methods
and speed.
Summer evocations always include
warmth and life in some way: summer flames
burn hotter, summer earth carries the warmth
of just-baked clay, summer spirit warms the
heart, and summer spells in general cause nearby
flowers to bloom and the ambient temperature
to rise.


There is an Exact mention of the bolded text in Unseelie (Winter) Magic as well, following the lines of Entropomancy instead of Summer's Biomancy... The point I'm getting to, is well.. It seems, according to the RAW, that you can only carry out the very specialized forms of Thaumaturgy, depending on your Sponsorship.. And that it doesn't allow ALL forms of Thaumaturgy to be cast at the speed of Evocation...

Now, the other thing, is the bolded text towards the end... Using Evocations methods and speed.  According to that, I'd say that... well.. You COULD increase its time, but it would be just for an exchange per shift... Rather than just making a simple block, you could use biomancy to help give yourself a little bit of an extra Oomph, and you could increases its duration as well... But, at least from my own personal reading on the subject, you couldn't increase its length along the normal Thaumaturgy Duration times...

Any thoughts or arguments?
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on February 01, 2011, 10:05:38 PM
There is an Exact mention of the bolded text in Unseelie (Winter) Magic as well, following the lines of Entropomancy instead of Summer's Biomancy... The point I'm getting to, is well.. It seems, according to the RAW, that you can only carry out the very specialized forms of Thaumaturgy, depending on your Sponsorship.. And that it doesn't allow ALL forms of Thaumaturgy to be cast at the speed of Evocation...

Correct.

Now, the other thing, is the bolded text towards the end... Using Evocations methods and speed.  According to that, I'd say that... well.. You COULD increase its time, but it would be just for an exchange per shift... Rather than just making a simple block, you could use biomancy to help give yourself a little bit of an extra Oomph, and you could increases its duration as well... But, at least from my own personal reading on the subject, you couldn't increase its length along the normal Thaumaturgy Duration times...

Any thoughts or arguments?

Methods:  You choose how many shifts of power and the effect, this is limited by your conviction (no worries about Lore).  You roll Discipline to control it (and perhaps to hit).
Speed:  You do it in an exchange, not in a ritual that takes minutes at least.
Effect:  The effect is the same as if you'd done it as a ritual with that power level and shifts devoted to each component in the same manner.  This includes longer duration when appropriate.

The rules are pretty clear on this, imho.  The state multiple times the effect will as per Thaumaturgy.  Short durations are an effect of traditional evocation.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Kommisar on February 01, 2011, 10:15:17 PM
Correct.

Methods:  You choose how many shifts of power and the effect, this is limited by your conviction (no worries about Lore).  You roll Discipline to control it (and perhaps to hit).
Speed:  You do it in an exchange, not in a ritual that takes minutes at least.
Effect:  The effect is the same as if you'd done it as a ritual with that power level and shifts devoted to each component in the same manner.  This includes longer duration when appropriate.

The rules are pretty clear on this, imho.  The state multiple times the effect will as per Thaumaturgy.  Short durations are an effect of traditional evocation.

I concur with this. 

I also concur that this can and should be limited to Thaum effects that fit your sponsor's agenda or idiom.  In the case of the wizard in my game (Shaman of Coyote), he is limited to animal shapeshifting at evocation speeds.  He can't start dropping, say, divination rituals at evocation speed.  Well, not at least without giving me a REALLY good reason why it fits in with Coyote and, of course, accruing some debt.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on February 01, 2011, 10:24:37 PM
The problem is the subject is so quickly glossed over, there isn't any clear definitions to its limitations... In all honesty, it isn't clear in the rules on this particular avenue of casting.  Most effects you'd want to use at Evocations speed, are because you'd need them now, and not after a timely preparation and casting period.  In all honesty, it could be considered very open to interpretation... Mine, well, I'm pretty sure I've established..  It also just seems to make it less abusable, but I'm mostly just wanting to see how it was really intended ;P  Its just the most annoying part about it, is you could technically use the evocation method of easily increasing a spells time, and if it you can increase it normally along a thaumaturgical spell... Thats what I don't like..  Its abusing the rules, on a technicality.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Kommisar on February 01, 2011, 10:30:27 PM
I believe it was intended to remain very flexible and not becomes an unwieldy, rigid rule.  If you are a Kimmlerite, then you can pull of Necromancy at Evocation speed.  If you are Sponsored by Odin, perhaps you can drop Divinations at Evocation Speed.

I don't think it is written as such, but I would limit like one would specialize in Thaumaturgy.  By making them take a specific type of spell OR a theme.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on February 01, 2011, 10:49:35 PM
I believe it was intended to remain very flexible and not becomes an unwieldy, rigid rule.  If you are a Kimmlerite, then you can pull of Necromancy at Evocation speed.  If you are Sponsored by Odin, perhaps you can drop Divinations at Evocation Speed.

I don't think it is written as such, but I would limit like one would specialize in Thaumaturgy.  By making them take a specific type of spell OR a theme.

Yeah, and I don't have a problem with that really, hehe... Its just an example of someone slapping on a tagable aspect to themselves at thaum at the speed of evo, then going on the next turn and making it last for the whole night, maybe even longer, easily, and it won't even take more then 2 mental stress.. Then just wait till next scene, slap on another one, rinse repeat till you have a bunch of very easily tagable aspects, as was the example mentioned previously.  In my opinion, its using overlapping rules together, in my mind flat out abusing them... And technically, it may not even be true RAW because of poor wording in certain sections.  Technically, I won't have to really worry about this, cause I know I feel it isn't right, thus I'll run it in my own game accordingly.  And others will run how they wish.

I just mostly, right now, wish to argue the letters of the law.  I see what I see, and I disagree.  I want to be either proven wrong, or argued with to attempt to dissuade me from my current logical stand point.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on February 01, 2011, 10:57:10 PM
Yeah, and I don't have a problem with that really, hehe... Its just an example of someone slapping on a tagable aspect to themselves at thaum at the speed of evo, then going on the next turn and making it last for the whole night, maybe even longer, easily, and it won't even take more then 2 mental stress.. Then just wait till next scene, slap on another one, rinse repeat till you have a bunch of very easily tagable aspects, as was the example mentioned previously.  In my opinion, its using overlapping rules together, in my mind flat out abusing them... And technically, it may not even be true RAW because of poor wording in certain sections.  Technically, I won't have to really worry about this, cause I know I feel it isn't right, thus I'll run it in my own game accordingly.  And others will run how they wish.

You can do the same thing with regular Thaumaturgy, it is just a little slower (through magical items it is pretty much just as fast though).  It certainly is a problem with the rules regarding using magic to create aspects.  The thing that should be solved is how you allow those to stack and that solves the whole problem.

Personally, I think that you shouldn't allow aspects from more than one buff to stack on you -- the magic interferes with itself.  So maybe you can get a couple aspects on yourself from one spell, but you can't stack spells to get an arbitrarily high number.  That seems reasonable to me.  Then adjust the duration for how long they can last to a few minutes by default (e.g. one combat scene), and I think the problem is completely taken care of with pretty simple rules.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: sinker on February 01, 2011, 11:00:46 PM
I think the big issue I have is that it's clearly against the RAW for one reason. You are using the prolonging spells rule. The argument that you can use thaum's duration has been reasonably well made, and if someone wanted to add shifts to the original spell to increase it thusly I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. However you are using the prolonging spells rule, which very clearly states that it increases the duration by exchanges, not that it increases the duration in whatever manner appropriate.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on February 01, 2011, 11:10:33 PM
I think the big issue I have is that it's clearly against the RAW for one reason. You are using the prolonging spells rule. The argument that you can use thaum's duration has been reasonably well made, and if someone wanted to add shifts to the original spell to increase it thusly I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. However you are using the prolonging spells rule, which very clearly states that it increases the duration by exchanges, not that it increases the duration in whatever manner appropriate.

Thaumaturgy has its own rules for prolonging spells though.  You can easily make something last a long, long time doing that, leading to stacking aspects.  Taggable Aspect Tagging via Magic is still a problem.

Hmm, if you are using the Prolonging Spells section for Evocation on a Thaumaturgy cast like Evocation...which I think is ok (rules are fuzzy), then you are right it should just be one exchange per shift of power.  Better to just find room for a few more shifts to start with and you can have it last much, much longer.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on February 01, 2011, 11:15:52 PM
Drachasor, could you give me citation for increasing, or adding to a thaumaturgical spell's duration, outside of the original casting, because I'm honestly not able to find it at the moment... Second, I actually had an idea along those lines for limiting it and gave it in another thread.. It does get to a pretty crazy point, and I was thinking that it'd probably get harder and harder to place spells on someone, the more there are.  So maybe an increase in complexity for every spell already on the target?  So, if someone wanted to place 4 aspects on themselves, and cast it in a single spell, they'd have no increase in complexity.  But if they, by chance, cast it cheaply, putting one spell on top of another, and another, I'd think that maybe it would increase by 1 or 2 for every spell already on.  Or something possibly a lot more complicated, increasing the complexity of a spell going on the person by a percentage of the combined complexity of all the spells on them currently.  At that point though, you start getting a bigger headache as well ;P

sinker, i know... which is what is rubbing me a little raw... >.<  Its like trying to get all the best benefits, cherry picking from different sections of the rules for the best results, and I don't like that...
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: devonapple on February 01, 2011, 11:20:35 PM
I'm okay with using thaumaturgy duration when you first cast the Sponsored Magic Thaum spell (default is a scene or until sunrise, depending on the effect).

But, because of that, I would disallow attempts to extend the duration using the Prolong Spell effect - It's a really munchkin maneuver and you are already getting at least a scene's worth of effect. Thaum spells should not be extendable using Prolong Spell - they are sort of a "set it and forget it" spell effect that you let out into the world to perform a specific purpose.

If a GM has determined that a Sponsored Magic Thaum effect was going to be measured in exchanges for some reason, then I would approve extending the duration using the Prolong Spell effect, but on a 1-shift-per-exchange basis.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on February 01, 2011, 11:21:50 PM
I didn't mean outside the original casting (though I suppose if you have a Thaum As Evo lasting until sunrise, then extending it by a few exchanges won't break anything).  If someone was proposing doing that, then yeah, that's no good.  However, you don't need that to stack aspects on you like crazy.

As for house rules, I say keep it simple.  You can only have one buffing spell giving you a given effect (maneuver, block, etc) on you at a given time (defensive magical items bypass this limitation, I suppose, but you are limited to one of them at a time).  If a new one is cast, whichever is more powerful, the new one or the old one, is the one that remains.  Making something complicated doesn't do anyone any favors.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on February 01, 2011, 11:22:59 PM
I'm okay with using thaumaturgy duration when you first cast the Sponsored Magic Thaum spell (default is a scene or until sunrise, depending on the effect).

But, because of that, I would disallow attempts to extend the duration using the Prolong Spell effect - It's a really munchkin maneuver and you are already getting at least a scene's worth of effect. Thaum spells should not be extendable using Prolong Spell - they are sort of a "set it and forget it" spell effect that you let out into the world to perform a specific purpose.

If a GM has determined that a Sponsored Magic Thaum effect was going to be measured in exchanges for some reason, then I would approve extending the duration using the Prolong Spell effect, but on a 1-shift-per-exchange basis.

 Agree fully on this...  :o
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on February 01, 2011, 11:23:18 PM
You can do the same thing with regular Thaumaturgy, it is just a little slower (through magical items it is pretty much just as fast though).  It certainly is a problem with the rules regarding using magic to create aspects.  The thing that should be solved is how you allow those to stack and that solves the whole problem.

Personally, I think that you shouldn't allow aspects from more than one buff to stack on you -- the magic interferes with itself.  So maybe you can get a couple aspects on yourself from one spell, but you can't stack spells to get an arbitrarily high number.  That seems reasonable to me.  Then adjust the duration for how long they can last to a few minutes by default (e.g. one combat scene), and I think the problem is completely taken care of with pretty simple rules.

With those rules it's all but completely useless and as a player I'd never in a million years use it.

That mental stress would be much, much better used for evocations during combat.

At what point do you stop nerfing abilities?  If you nerf them too much, they aren't worth much anymore.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on February 01, 2011, 11:28:09 PM
I didn't mean outside the original casting.  If someone was proposing doing that, then yeah, that's no good.  However, you don't need that to stack aspects on you like crazy.

As for house rules, I say keep it simple.  You can only have one buffing spell giving you a given effect (maneuver, block, etc) on you at a given time (defensive magical items bypass this limitation, I suppose, but you are limited to one of them at a time).  If a new one is cast, whichever is more powerful, the new one or the old one, is the one that remains.  Making something complicated doesn't do anyone any favors.

Ahh, ok... Yeah, I couldn't find anything on prolonging a spell besides the initial casting.  And I think I can agree with your idea of a house rule as well, maybe with some slight alteration... Keeping it within a single spell, or at least making it hard to keep more than one spell up at a time... But you also have to realize... Every time you walk through a threshold, invited or otherwise, every time you pass too close to water, you'll end up having your spells attacked..  Another thing you can keep in mind, hehe..
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on February 01, 2011, 11:28:53 PM
With those rules it's all but completely useless and as a player I'd never in a million years use it.

That mental stress would be much, much better used for evocations during combat.

At what point do you stop nerfing abilities?  If you nerf them too much, they aren't worth much anymore.

Really?  Let's say you can get a Complexity 8 Evocation.  That's enough to get 2 Aspects that each last a few scenes.  If you go to complexity 10 or 12, they can last much, much longer.

If you are fighting a guy really tough in combat and have no taggable aspects from magic, then spending an exchange to do a complexity 9 or 12 spell (assuming you have foci to make this pretty easy), then the next exchange tagging them all for free to get +6 or +8 on the discipline roll could well be worth it.  It's far, far faster than any other way to do maneuvers.  People without sponsored magic can resort to magical items to give them the same benefit (well, same with people with sponsored magic).
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on February 01, 2011, 11:33:17 PM
I think that effects lasting until sunrise would be thematically appropriate and not OP.

I personally would not let players stack tags that would last months, but I don't think doing so is against the RAW.

Consider how much power an artificer can have at his fingertips.  Yet somehow that is considered to be A-OK in the community here.

I think that regardless of how a player optimizes their character, it is up the the GM to find creative ways to deal with that.

If they stack a ton of buffs on themselves from thaumatergy, make them attract the attention of a powerful fae or put the character in a thunderstorm.  Then compel their primary aspect and have the water wash away half their buffs.

I think that nerfing abilities too much goes against the spirit of the game (a long distance, sneaky sniper is very powerful - we going to nerf that?) and is a bit lazy.

Players should not be penalized for using their abilities as per the RAW.  I mean, we're talking about stacking aspects, not a Detect City Bomb.

Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on February 01, 2011, 11:36:52 PM
Really?  Let's say you can get a Complexity 8 Evocation.  That's enough to get 2 Aspects that each last a few scenes.  If you go to complexity 10 or 12, they can last much, much longer.

If you are fighting a guy really tough in combat and have no taggable aspects from magic, then spending an exchange to do a complexity 9 or 12 spell (assuming you have foci to make this pretty easy), then the next exchange tagging them all for free to get +6 or +8 on the discipline roll could well be worth it.  It's far, far faster than any other way to do maneuvers.  People without sponsored magic can resort to magical items to give them the same benefit (well, same with people with sponsored magic).

A character would have to be at least submerged or better to pull something like that off.  In that case, I doubt they'd need it.

My character is chest deep and cannot pull off anytihng close to that kind of power.  With those rules, I don't think I'd ever in a million years use this ability.

Not everyone is able to call up 8+ shifts of power.

I despise the rules you're suggesting because they pretty much only benefit very high powered casters and leave everyone else in the cold.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on February 01, 2011, 11:40:05 PM
With those rules it's all but completely useless and as a player I'd never in a million years use it.

That mental stress would be much, much better used for evocations during combat.

At what point do you stop nerfing abilities?  If you nerf them too much, they aren't worth much anymore.

Give me one example of a wizard using his magic in this way to begin with in the books... And ANYWAY, you can only use certain fields of thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation, depending on your sponsor.  Summer's thing is Biomancy, Winter's thing is Entropomancy... For what your using it, stick with Evocation... Besides a couple of quick benefits, like using summer to help mend a friends wounds RIGHT NOW, or placing an Entropy curse on your opponent to put him at a disadvantage or something else, depending on your Sponsor's field, if it even has one... Its just one thing a Sponsor can give, they have a lot of other benefits...

And it even states it earlier in the books as well as the RPG.. Thaumaturgy really isn't ment for combat, but a clever player/character could use it to give himself an edge, in a good number of situations...  Its just really, the nature of the beast...

And I don't have a problem with using the RAW... I just don't like a player looking at them, and either doctoring, or cherry picking because of poor wording, and trying to get the best benefits they can manage...
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on February 01, 2011, 11:51:41 PM
A character would have to be at least submerged or better to pull something like that off.  In that case, I doubt they'd need it.

My character is chest deep and cannot pull off anytihng close to that kind of power.  With those rules, I don't think I'd ever in a million years use this ability.

Not everyone is able to call up 8+ shifts of power.

I despise the rules you're suggesting because they pretty much only benefit very high powered casters and leave everyone else in the cold.

A weaker caster is logically going to more often find greater benefit from doing things without magic than a more powerful caster.  The rules do explicitly state maneuvers last for one scene (look under Thaumaturgy and how it goes over duration).

And a Chest Deep Caster could do an 8-shift spell with no repercussions outside of the scene they do it in.  Let's say they have Sponsored Magic, no refinement, a +2 Focus on control, and 4 in Discipline and Conviction.  They call up 8 shifts, that is a 4 mental hit, they have a box for it, they roll Discipline, take some physical backlash (they can have a box for that fairly easily), and boom, 8 shift spell that's fully controlled.  That only uses up two 4 skill point slots, and 4 refresh, so in fact someone lower than Chest Deep could do it.  You can't do it like it is a joke, but you can do it.  Spend a bit more refresh or two more focus slots (assuming you have the lore for it), and you could make it pretty darn easy.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on February 01, 2011, 11:53:47 PM
Give me one example of a wizard using his magic in this way to begin with in the books... And ANYWAY, you can only use certain fields of thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation, depending on your sponsor.  Summer's thing is Biomancy, Winter's thing is Entropomancy... For what your using it, stick with Evocation... Besides a couple of quick benefits, like using summer to help mend a friends wounds RIGHT NOW, or placing an Entropy curse on your opponent to put him at a disadvantage or something else, depending on your Sponsor's field, if it even has one... Its just one thing a Sponsor can give, they have a lot of other benefits...

Actually, Winter and Summer allow the elements "Winter" and "Summer" to be used in evocations.  So you could make an Aspect "Imbued with Summer Magic" and apply it to yourself, spending that on any future spell you do that uses fire, growth, wildness, etc.  You could even make a Summer Magic Focus, as I understand it (Summer Magic is an evocation ELEMENT to you if you are sponsored), and take refinements to give your summer magic greater potency.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: sinker on February 02, 2011, 12:01:47 AM
Jybil is talking specifically about the fields of thaumaturgy that summer and winter allow you to perform with evocation's means and speed. Specifically for evocation they do have their own element and it functions exactly as you describe.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on February 02, 2011, 12:42:35 AM
A weaker caster is logically going to more often find greater benefit from doing things without magic than a more powerful caster.  The rules do explicitly state maneuvers last for one scene (look under Thaumaturgy and how it goes over duration).

And a Chest Deep Caster could do an 8-shift spell with no repercussions outside of the scene they do it in.  Let's say they have Sponsored Magic, no refinement, a +2 Focus on control, and 4 in Discipline and Conviction.  They call up 8 shifts, that is a 4 mental hit, they have a box for it, they roll Discipline, take some physical backlash (they can have a box for that fairly easily), and boom, 8 shift spell that's fully controlled.  That only uses up two 4 skill point slots, and 4 refresh, so in fact someone lower than Chest Deep could do it.  You can't do it like it is a joke, but you can do it.  Spend a bit more refresh or two more focus slots (assuming you have the lore for it), and you could make it pretty darn easy.

Ok you've got a point there...

I just don't see it as being viable from a RP standpoint.  I doubt my character would ever leave himself so weakened or hurt for such a small bonus.  I mean, what if you take the physical stress or consequences for doing this and then get attacked?  It's a dangerous world and my character does not get a lot of downtime.

So you're correct.  I suppose it could be done by a character with my PC's power, I just don't see how the benefits would really be all that great unless the bonuses last until sunrise and are all encompassing.

I don't think that my suggestions of having a set of 2 aspects for both combat and social situations for a total of 4 aspects would be OP...

Especially for the amount of attention it could draw to that character.

I would like to remind everyone that the community felt it was A-ok for an artificer to be walking around with 700 shifts of power in gizmos, some of the effects possibly being 10+ shifts of power a pop.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: sinker on February 02, 2011, 01:32:16 AM
I would like to remind everyone that the community felt it was A-ok for an artificer to be walking around with 700 shifts of power in gizmos, some of the effects possibly being 10+ shifts of power a pop.

Firstly that example is using more refresh. Secondly it has it's own downsides. Thirdly I'm not sure everyone is ok with it, however it is RAW.

I know you feel like we're "nerfing" the concept, however what we're doing is discussing whether the concept is RAW. If it's not then you're free to house rule, but don't expect anyone to necessarily back you up on it.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on February 02, 2011, 01:35:42 AM
I would like to remind everyone that the community felt it was A-ok for an artificer to be walking around with 700 shifts of power in gizmos, some of the effects possibly being 10+ shifts of power a pop.

I'm not familiar with the thread where this was done.. But I'm guess, like sinker mentioned, it would have its own problems... Honestly, i'm quite curious to how you could manage the 700 shifts, and I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be easy.. Plus, devoting yourself so strongly to your "items" would leave you quite weakened if your access was cut off from them... Could you link me to the thread, and maybe mention how it was done as well?
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Drachasor on February 02, 2011, 01:46:35 AM
I'm not familiar with the thread where this was done.. But I'm guess, like sinker mentioned, it would have its own problems... Honestly, i'm quite curious to how you could manage the 700 shifts, and I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be easy.. Plus, devoting yourself so strongly to your "items" would leave you quite weakened if your access was cut off from them... Could you link me to the thread, and maybe mention how it was done as well?

Pretty sure it is 700 shifts altogether in items, not 700 at a time.  Not hard.

Lore 5, Thamauturgy with +1 frequency, 5 Refresh for +5 power, +5 frequency Foci for Crafting, that means each item has 7 uses and is at 10 shifts.  So that's 70 shifts per item, then you just need 10 items (you'd start with 4 items from Thaumaturgy, so you'd need 1.5 more refresh for items).  That's 9 Refresh spent total, so it would be a minimum of an 10 Refresh game.  That's with me keeping the math simple and not bothering with calculus to maximize shifts available.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: toturi on February 02, 2011, 01:50:38 AM
I know you feel like we're "nerfing" the concept, however what we're doing is discussing whether the concept is RAW. If it's not then you're free to house rule, but don't expect anyone to necessarily back you up on it.
Eh? If the concept is RAW but the GM feels he cannot/will not/whatever deal with it, he can house rule it. If the concept is not RAW, then there is no need to house rule it in the first place, is there?
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on February 02, 2011, 02:02:39 AM
Pretty sure it is 700 shifts altogether in items, not 700 at a time.  Not hard.

Lore 5, Thamauturgy with +1 frequency, 5 Refresh for +5 power, +5 frequency Foci for Crafting, that means each item has 7 uses and is at 10 shifts.  So that's 70 shifts per item, then you just need 10 items (you'd start with 4 items from Thaumaturgy, so you'd need 1.5 more refresh for items).  That's 9 Refresh spent total, so it would be a minimum of an 10 Refresh game.  That's with me keeping the math simple and not bothering with calculus to maximize shifts available.

Hehe, one of the most munchkiny things i've ever seen >.< and thats saying a lot!
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on February 02, 2011, 02:03:41 AM
Eh? If the concept is RAW but the GM feels he cannot/will not/whatever deal with it, he can house rule it. If the concept is not RAW, then there is no need to house rule it in the first place, is there?

Hehe, why we are discussing it so much ^^ Its hard to determine if its RAW or not, and what we'd need to do with the rules as they fall pretty much... having a blast with the thread so far, hehe...
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on February 02, 2011, 03:54:00 AM
Hehe, why we are discussing it so much ^^ Its hard to determine if its RAW or not, and what we'd need to do with the rules as they fall pretty much... having a blast with the thread so far, hehe...

Someone should just ask Fred.  I actually just might do that.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on February 02, 2011, 03:59:16 AM
I would think about it, but I'm kinda new to the forums, and I doubt I'd be payed much attention... Would love to discuss the topic though with him, but I don't know if thats really possible >,<
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: sinker on February 02, 2011, 04:16:50 AM
If you email him he is at least likely to respond. He doesn't exactly have the time to chat (otherwise I'm sure he'd be on here more often) but he is pretty good at getting back to people (regardless of their forum standing  :) ).
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on February 02, 2011, 04:32:53 AM
If you email him he is at least likely to respond. He doesn't exactly have the time to chat (otherwise I'm sure he'd be on here more often) but he is pretty good at getting back to people (regardless of their forum standing  :) ).

That's what I've heard too. :)

Unless someone else does, I will probably email him tomorrow.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: arete on February 03, 2011, 12:25:32 AM
Emailed fred my buff thread today hoping he can clarifiy in the next book.  It was nice, quick and easy.  I think this thread would also be good for him to look at.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on February 03, 2011, 12:28:02 AM
Heheh, agreed, but I don't like the idea of bothering him about it... >.< I'd feel awkward doing so :P
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: devonapple on February 03, 2011, 12:32:46 AM
The best thing would be to boil down the specific questions, maybe adding in some of the community opinions, into a short, quick essay - then email that. And, that would facilitate a quicker answer than a simple "go read this thread and tell us what you think." Nothing to be awkward about at all.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on February 03, 2011, 01:00:45 AM
The best thing would be to boil down the specific questions, maybe adding in some of the community opinions, into a short, quick essay - then email that. And, that would facilitate a quicker answer than a simple "go read this thread and tell us what you think." Nothing to be awkward about at all.

Agreed.  I'm still thinking about how to phrase the question.

I really don't want to come off as annoying or as a rules lawyer.  I also want to phrase it in such a way as to explain how much some people care about the resolution of the question but without coming off as demanding.

Writing respectfully can take a while - especially with a convoluted issue. :P
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: devonapple on February 03, 2011, 01:14:08 AM
Agreed.  I'm still thinking about how to phrase the question.

I really don't want to come off as annoying or as a rules lawyer.  I also want to phrase it in such a way as to explain how much some people care about the resolution of the question but without coming off as demanding.

Writing respectfully can take a while - especially with a convoluted issue. :P

I'm a Lit Major, editor and something of an amateur diplomat - I would be happy to proofread anything you plan to send.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: jybil178 on February 03, 2011, 02:12:18 AM
Hehe, do you think you could basically paraphrase the current discussion, and bring it to a more manageable level?  Basically, while I know this would probably not be too high on the priority list, I can easily see a few more potential sponsors added in the upcoming supplement, and would find it fairly easy to add a small clarifications side-note about the pure, intended mechanics in the general area...  At least, I can see it happening :P
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on February 03, 2011, 02:14:32 AM
I'm a Lit Major, editor and something of an amateur diplomat - I would be happy to proofread anything you plan to send.

I may take you up on that.
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: sinker on February 03, 2011, 05:47:07 AM
I really don't want to come off as annoying or as a rules lawyer.

Pshh. There's an easy way to do that. Blame us. ;D
"The guys on the forum think... P.S. They are smelly."
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: BumblingBear on February 03, 2011, 07:47:14 AM
Pshh. There's an easy way to do that. Blame us. ;D
"The guys on the forum think... P.S. They are smelly."

I may take you up on that too... lol
Title: Re: Thaumatergy at the speed of evocation
Post by: Moriden on February 03, 2011, 01:46:33 PM
I likly missed some but here are some of the topics ive been discussing with people recently.

1] you can use a block instead of a defensive skill roll, when doing so with evocation the strength is equal to one shift a level and you can use it an extra time per shift put into duration also for some reason called persistence.

2] when useing a block in place of a defensive roll with thumaturgy, it works as above but the base duration is scene, you use the time duration chart instead of +1 round, and the block does not go away after it is breached as per the ward/veil rules.

3] can you use a "block" instead of a non defensive roll [ie alertness for initiative, fists to attack,might to lift or break things]? My current understanding based on some of iago's older posts is yes, but there may not be a lot of RAW to support this.

4] can you use the magic system to gain a +x to a skill roll instead of a "block"? Again some of the moderators earlier posts and a few examples in the book support this  however there is clearly no listed system for how you would do so in the book.

5] when using thaumaturgy at evocation speeds and methods which duration system do you use? and can you then use the evocation method to boost its duration.

6] when creating a "buff" spell is it most appropriate to use "blocks", aspects, or the temporary powers rules, or some combination of them all as appropriate?

7] When useing a shift of persistence/duration [for evocation], do the extra exchanges have to be consequtive, ie are they "gain one extra round" or " the spell can have its affect used one extra time"?

8] is there any reason why you cant/shouldn't use the thaumaturgy and evocation rules interchangeably when it seems appropriate [one example being sponsored magic]


By all means if it will ease the mind of whoever is willing to ask Mr Hicks you can place sole blame on myself, ive already exchanged metaphorical blows with him on some of the less defined parts of the rules before.

for completness sake here is the other thread i am discussing some of these in.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23594.new.html#new