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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: JediDresden on January 28, 2011, 10:34:36 PM
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I get that by agreement of the Supernatural powers in any given city anyplace could be Neutral Ground, but what does it take to be recognized as Accorded Neutral Ground (ANG)? I realize it has to have something to do with Mab's approval, and the example in the Baltimore section of the RPG just says that she petitioned Mab for ANG status and it was given. I also get that it is our city and we can say it happens however we want it to.
We actually had the idea in City Creation to have 2-3 spots that are Neutral Grounds, but not Accorded, and have them 'compete' for the status of getting Mab's approval. I am sure that she would be vindictive as all get out and make the owners do all kinds of things to get the right to become ANG.
My questions are; 'How feasible is this to do?' and 'What are some ideas for Mab's reqirements fo becoming ANG?'
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I feel like it could be handled in a way similar to how an individual or organization can be declared a signatory (example: Marcone). You get a sponsor or two and submit the requisite paperwork, whatever form that may take.
In your situation of competing places, it could be that the areas are having trouble finding a sponsor and so are eager to do favors for various supernatural factions to gain sponsorship.
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I mentioned the way an organization signs on to the Accords as a sponsor. I will probably go with that if the party has no objections.
By the way do any of the books say when or how Mac's becomes ANG? I can't seem to remember, I just thought it was always ANG, but another player in my group says that it came out of the Vampire War.
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There would probably be an Accorded Neutral Ground in every major city, and many mid-sized ones. The general feeling I get is that there is always conflict and tension, even if there's not outright war, between the factions. Any time this is the case, it's convenient to have an agreed upon meeting ground, known to be safe to all factions, for meetings and conferences. There were peaceful contacts between the Red Court and the White Council after the outbreak of war (otherwise how could you attempt to negotiate an end to the war?); these were undoubtedly meetings at neutral grounds.
As to why any given site is picked; that could make an interesting story in it's own right. The process is probably pretty streamlined (as the Accords go), and probably a lot of sites were already neutral grounds prior to their being Accorded. My thought is that the leaders of the major factions in an area agree to and sign off on 'place x' being Accorded.
Mac's story is yet to be told...
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We actually had the idea in City Creation to have 2-3 spots that are Neutral Grounds, but not Accorded, and have them 'compete' for the status of getting Mab's approval. I am sure that she would be vindictive as all get out and make the owners do all kinds of things to get the right to become ANG.
My first thought was about how "Venture Brothers" cartoon manages to humorously combine the weird and superhuman with the banal and mundane. I imagined Mab sitting at a folding table with reading glasses, perusing resumes.
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I think Mac's became it before Death Masks, but not before, since Harry never mentions it, and I think he would notice.
As for the paperwork, I think Mab just chooses on her own. (I kind of get this from the neutral grounds in the baltimore write-up in YS)
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I think Mac's became it before Death Masks, but not before, since Harry never mentions it, and I think he would notice.
As for the paperwork, I think Mab just chooses on her own. (I kind of get this from the neutral grounds in the baltimore write-up in YS)
It's not really important before then. Butcher uses Checkov's Gun so much that mentioning it earlier would be a faux pas.
Anyhow, I don't see why Accorded Neutral Ground should be harder to get than becoming a Member of the Accords. If anything it should be easier (though getting the signatures is probably easier). I also don't see why there'd be a limit to the number of places in a city that could become this. Theoretically, I think a City Itself could become Accorded Neutral Ground at least all public areas, if the Mayor was Clued In.
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Anyhow, I don't see why Accorded Neutral Ground should be harder to get than becoming a Member of the Accords. If anything it should be easier (though getting the signatures is probably easier). I also don't see why there'd be a limit to the number of places in a city that could become this. Theoretically, I think a City Itself could become Accorded Neutral Ground at least all public areas, if the Mayor was Clued In.
Having a few locations accorded neutral ground should be fairly easy - though there will probably be some politicking over which locations. However, an entire city (or even too many locations) is unlikely.
Remember, neutral ground is useful for places to meet and discuss differences. It's also a potential disadvantage to predatory powers as a potential refuge. So those powers will almost certainly sign off on one location. A few more are possible for convenience. At some point they'll say 'enough - these are cutting into my hunting ground'.
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Having a few locations accorded neutral ground should be fairly easy - though there will probably be some politicking over which locations. However, an entire city (or even too many locations) is unlikely.
Remember, neutral ground is useful for places to meet and discuss differences. It's also a potential disadvantage to predatory powers as a potential refuge. So those powers will almost certainly sign off on one location. A few more are possible for convenience. At some point they'll say 'enough - these are cutting into my hunting ground'.
Didn't say it would be easy, merely theoretically possible.
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There's a date given about Mac's and it's been there longer than Death Masks... well, what year do the books actually take place in? I think the date I saw was in the early 1970's... anyway, wouldn't it make sense that anyplace that is 'friendly' to supernatural types, i.e. the owner (or proprietor) knows of their existence, is not an actual member of any court or faction, and welcomes them in general, and is the sort of place that both (or all) sides might wish to frequent, would petition for the status?
I mean, if people wanted to go to Mac's back in the day, but he'd had to repair his place a couple times thanks to opposing parties showing up at the same time, and the vanilla authorities were possibly in danger of being attracted to trouble, that would probably trigger a need for it to get the status, as long as the proprietor was a responsible individual and has proven himself so (as Mac had/has). Mac is pretty darn careful to walk the straight and narrow about staying out of his customer's business. He just barely gave Harry a little help the one time, and I bet then he carefully considered if it would go against his neutrality status! It was more against a vanilla human opponent and not an actual signatory of the accords. (trying to remember what it was now, but I remember thinking about it at the time, and yeah, that was other than the case in "Last Call" BTW, and oh yeah, didn't they violate NG by doing that to his place and his Ale?)
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In the Baltimore example in Your Story, it says the local Neutral Grounds, the coffee shop the owner in question the caffeinomancer, simply requested her establishment be made Neutral Grounds to Mab, and she agreed.
While you could obviously change it up for your campaign, it seems its not that hard, just getting a request in to the Queen of Air and Darkness.Which come to think of it could very well be a campaign story in and of itself, come to think of it, maybe Mab requires payment of some kind, maybe a task for you to complete before she gives her okay...
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I realise that both canon ANGs are F&B establishments with them better known for their drinks. Maybe this has something to do with why they were accorded neutral ground.
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I initally felt that Mac's was unique in it's ANG status.. but it makes sense that there would be similar places in other cities, if not multiple ANG's in other cities.
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Not sure that there would be multiple locations; each place becomes a refuge for people hunted by the Powers of that area, and giving unwanted supernaturals a lot of areas to run to makes enforcement difficult.
After all, you're only safe once you actually get onto the grounds...you're fair game until you cross that threshold.
That would also fit the medieval world-view of many of the supernaturals, where only the Church was an accepted refuge.
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I initally felt that Mac's was unique in it's ANG status.. but it makes sense that there would be similar places in other cities, if not multiple ANG's in other cities.
You know, I kinda felt similar, which is why I usually work to find another way to create neutral ground. The last game I was in we invited hostiles to a cop bar. Figured no one's going to start anything in front of all of the mortal authorities.
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Part of Mac's ability to be a good ANG was (i thought) in how it was constructed to disrupt magical energies (13 pillars, tables in odd locations, etc.).
Obviously thats not going to disrupt a creature with supernatural toughness from coming in and busting shit up, but maybe ANG's get a type of threshold which force beings to leave part of their strength at the door, and the layout of the place disrupts it somewhat as well.
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IMHO I'm thinking that ANG would require not merely a sponsor .. but also the other local signatories to say Aye! ANG should be outside the conflicts of the Accords, ie "we don't fight here" A place where no one member has undue influence or pull, a place where agendas are not active (talked about, but not implemented). Starting something there would likely bring reprisal from ALL the other members of the Accords, as it would/could be considered as a strike against the detente that the Accords create. I don't think either of the Queens would be willing to use Marcone's favorite Italian Bistro as NG simply because its "his bistro", with all the people employed there answering to him. The way I see it, any ANG should be a place that all agree is outside their petty (or not so petty) disagreements, and can not be targeted.
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I'm working on a campaign set in/around my hometown where there is no set ANG on hand. The area's a White Court stronghold and they're making it hell for anyone to establish an ANG without their explicit backing. End result: One girl is trying for it actively, and another guy's property has been nominated for it without his knowledge or consent since everyone uses him as a doctor. The Court's been able to block her by backing the other guy and also by accusing her of a bias towards the 'kine.' Which is arguably true, considering circumstances :P
EDIT: And just to include their backgrounds...
Myra Dougall
There aren't too many open occult hubs in Myrtle Beach. Most talented people make do by gathering in the new age sections of Books-a-Million or Barnes & Noble. Myra Dougall aims to change that. She's recently opened her own coffee shop at the Market Commons, a very artsy outdoor shopping center about twenty minutes south of Broadway and Coastal Grand. She was originally going for a tavern but White Court efforts have done a good job blocking her from getting a liquor license. They really don't want the local supernatural community having a place of its own to gather around.
Myra is also lobbying for Accorded neutrality, but the Whites are blocking her there as well. Due to the pledges Myra had to take early in the application process, she can do little to oppose them and can't even support efforts made on her behalf. Admittedly, she doesn't have to do anything to discourage or inhibit those efforts either.
Myra is a minor talent, little more than a sensitive who knows how to throw down low-end wards and protections around her business and home. Her true power lies in her ability to Listen – she can follow twelve conversations at once and clearly remember every single one of them. Her coffee shop's name is Black Cat Strut.
Muhammad Cohen
Only in the South will you find a devoutly Jewish man named Muhammad who owns a pork farm and a butcher shop specializing in sausages.
Really.
Take a step back and think about that. The page will still be here when you're done.
Once the shock wears off, Muhammad strikes most people as a fairly nice guy. He's a hyperpragmatist and an ex-Army Medic who attended college on the GI bill. He's also a personal friend of Jack Rogers dating back to their Vietnam days, and about as clued-in as any mortal's going to get without being directly involved. Muhammad is, above all things, a staunch believer in second chances and long shots. He's the closest thing Myrtle Beach has to a truly neutral power and just about every group has, at some point or other, called him up in the middle of the night to patch up one of their boys.
He's probably the only doctor of any kind who can claim to have performed major surgery on an ogre, and he's got a better understanding of supernatural physiology than any other mortal on the East Coast. He isn't an officially Accorded Neutral, but he's getting there whether he likes it or not – House Raith applied on his behalf just last year, citing him as a better candidate than Myra Dougall.
Among other things, Muhammad is also married to a Russian woman named Olga who started out as White Court property. Nobody's quite sure what the story is there, but whatever they've got going on is the real deal.
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IMHO I'm thinking that ANG would require not merely a sponsor .. but also the other local signatories to say Aye! ANG should be outside the conflicts of the Accords, ie "we don't fight here" A place where no one member has undue influence or pull, a place where agendas are not active (talked about, but not implemented). Starting something there would likely bring reprisal from ALL the other members of the Accords, as it would/could be considered as a strike against the detente that the Accords create. I don't think either of the Queens would be willing to use Marcone's favorite Italian Bistro as NG simply because its "his bistro", with all the people employed there answering to him. The way I see it, any ANG should be a place that all agree is outside their petty (or not so petty) disagreements, and can not be targeted.
That's what I think as well. while Mab's agreement is necessary to make it official, the local forces should need to sponsor it as well, other wise it's meaningless. I mean, it's not hard to hire a few thugs and get an ANG burned down inf you're not interested, and there are ways to make it difficult to track them back to you.
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I would imagine if the other factions in an area don't support a particular site as being acceptable, Mab doesn't sign off on neutrality.
And by the same token, if a site is already effectively neutral grounds by general agreement, getting it Accorded is not very difficult.
In an area where no such site exists...well, it might seem nice for the ruling faction not to have any known refuge points. Until they come under attack, and find that no one is very interested in meeting with them. Not even potential 'allies'; too easy to grab hostages or take other actions (and then blame the 'enemy'). And you can't meet with the enemy, so there's no way to negotiate an end to the hostilities. (I'd bet the Accords require such meetings to be on 'accepted neutral grounds'.) So, you can't call in help, and you can't talk to the enemy. Suddenly that decision to ban neutral grounds doesn't look so reasonably.
In the story mentioned, what if the nominated party decides to reject the 'honor' of becoming Neutral Grounds? Can you force someone to be neutral under the Accords?
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We have an interesting situation in my game. The ANG was set up by the current owner's father, who passed away a while back. The current owner is unaware of this and is not at all clued in to the supernatural community.
Should be interesting.
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Ooooh, very interesting Loki, and suitable for your name too! It really seems to me that someone would slip in and remove the sign, and possibly post some 'message' near the entrance... while the fae might like taking advantage of the 'trap' potential of it all, but that would be a big risk of involving human authorities which would be a big no no too. Hmmmm
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well, what year do the books actually take place in? I think the date I saw was in the early 1970's...
Um, what? Do you mean that's how long Mac's has been there?
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either the date mac's opened or the date it was accorded neutral ground, not sure which