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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: bitterpill on January 28, 2011, 03:28:44 AM
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Breath Weapons are considered a thrown Weapon so I was wondering as the description of Strength powers says that strength affects thrown weapon and fists would breath weapons be given a bonus by inhuman, supernatural or mythic strength?
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I'd say it depends on the breath weapon. If it's your classic breath weapon (I.E. a projection of energy, fire, cold, acid, etc) then I'd say no, but one could use (and I have used) breath weapon to represent the projection of a physical object and then it might be more appropriate.
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By the letter of the RAW, it would appear so. That said, from YS 156:
"Juggler: Throwing deadly items around is just par for the course for you. Catching them is, too. Even bare-handed, you may use your Weapons skill to defend against a thrown attack, allowing you to catch the item if you succeed on the defense."
So, if one can justify adding a Strength bonus to a Breath Weapon of lightning or fire, I would probably insist on being able to use the Juggler Stunt to catch it.
Edit: in truth, I *can* see larger, stronger creatures making bigger attacks (the difference between a baby dragon's Breath Weapon and a gigantic Dragon's Breath Weapon), but that extra damage can also be reflected in better skill rolls.
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Like most of Fate I'm going to say IF it makes sense to you and the story and makes it fun, then yes, strength modifies it. That being said, for most "breath weapons" I'd think a stunt would be a better choice for ways to "pump" up the power.
As for juggling such attacks, maybe if they had zel gel, asbestos gloves, or a magical shield then yea, they could pull it off (the first to are for fire obviously).
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It was for my scion of an ifrit character who was either going to be throwing about sandstorms or fireballs though I suppose strengthwise sand would make a lot more sense for strength than fire.
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Another situational call. Use logic, talk to your group and go with what sounds reasonable.
I have an NPC Jotunn that I used "Breath Weapon" to model his ability to form and throw ice-spears around. In this case, it makes sense that he would get his Strength bonus with this.
As for the juggler stunt; I would impose a limit on that as a GM. A limit based on size of the projectile You're not going to catch a tree thrown at you. As for the force/speed of the thrown object I suppose that would be tied up in the opposed rolls. If someone with Mythic Strength threw an axe at you, you would have to beat his roll to catch it and that includes all his bonuses for that Strength (+3 mod from Might to his Weapons skill right off). Not a trivial task.
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Those all sound like good options. In truth, I mentioned the Juggler stunt primarily as an illustration of the folly of making as strict an interpretation against logic using the rule cited in the OP.
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Personally I wouldn't use "breath weapon" to represent certain kinds of breath weapons (like energy attacks). As was said, don't get too caught up in names, focus on mechanics.
For instance, if it is an energy attack, the fact that it comes from the mouth really isn't important, map it as a more traditional energy attack and fluff it to be a breath weapon.
Similarly if you have an attack that fits the breath weapon template but comes from somewhere else...use breath weapon to map it.
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Similarly if you have an attack that fits the breath weapon template but comes from somewhere else...use breath weapon to map it.
It's true. The rules even suggest taking powers (like Breath Weapon) to represent innate or well-honed magical spells, like a Wizard's affinity for shapechanging.
So, yes, the Breath Weapon (like Claws) is there as a "catch-all" sort of power, and each special effect will suggest its own inherent advantages and disadvantages.
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I think that strength should be allowed apply to Breath Weapon even if it's something like fire. I've got three reasons.
1. Dragon breath should not be weapon 2. Same goes for anything else on a similar scale.
2. You spend 2 refresh on Breath Weapon, which should not give you something that does less than a throwing knife.
3. Players should not be penalized mechanically for flavour decisions like having fiery breath instead of needle-launching eyebrows.
That being said, I would let a player who wanted their strength not to apply to their Breath Weapon have their wish. And some NPCs might do the same, like Kalshazzak from OW.
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I think that strength should be allowed apply to Breath Weapon even if it's something like fire. I've got three reasons.
1. Dragon breath should not be weapon 2. Same goes for anything else on a similar scale.
2. You spend 2 refresh on Breath Weapon, which should not give you something that does less than a throwing knife.
3. Players should not be penalized mechanically for flavour decisions like having fiery breath instead of needle-launching eyebrows.
That being said, I would let a player who wanted their strength not to apply to their Breath Weapon have their wish. And some NPCs might do the same, like Kalshazzak from OW.
I'd say buy a -1 power to increase the strength of the Breath Weapon power on its own is called for when you get something like a Dragon. If it is something that strong, it can spare a few Refresh on its fire.
A Throwing Knife is Weapon 1, so Breath Weapon is better then that. Add to that the fact that it can't be taken away, it can do unique manuevers like 'On Fire' or 'Electrocuted', you have an infinite number of them, and it has range to it. It is worth -2. Claws is -1, Breath Weapon adds much more. If you want to think of it that way.
I'd say it affects it when it seems viable, say the monkeys from Blood Rites. While theirs was fire, they had a solid thing to throw for their Breath Weapon. If someone is just breathing fire, they aren't putting any real strength behind it. Hurling icicles, spikes growing out of your skin to be thrown, or even flaming poo rely on actual muscle to throw them. Does it make sense to have the person who shoots lasers out of their eyes get a bonus from Strength powers?
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2. You spend 2 refresh on Breath Weapon, which should not give you something that does less than a throwing knife.
... when thrown by something with supernatural Strength, of course, since knives are, by themselves, Weapon:1.
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I'd say buy a -1 power to increase the strength of the Breath Weapon power on its own is called for when you get something like a Dragon. If it is something that strong, it can spare a few Refresh on its fire....
Does it make sense to have the person who shoots lasers out of their eyes get a bonus from Strength powers?
Well, the sidebar on YS 162 does specify "You can’ t take any power multiple times unless it says so" but I think something like this is a gray area. Like I said, I think there is some logic behind making a bigger creature's given breath weapon do more damage than a smaller one, but that could also be a funciton of a better Weapons skill for generating additional shifts. But Strength does not always equal Size.
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Well, the sidebar on YS 162 does specify "You can’ t take any power multiple times unless it says so" but I think something like this is a gray area. Liek I said, I think there is some logic behind making a bigger creature's given breath weapon do more damage than a smaller one, but that could also be a funciton of a better Weapons skill for generating additional shifts. But Strength does not always equal Size.
What power am I suggesting a person take multiple times? A power can tier for multiple steps of increased power like Inhuman, Supernatural, and Mythic, although I'd lower the cost of it if it is just for Breath Weapon (or just take one upgrading power and not worry about taking more of them). More Weapons skill also helps, of course.
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Strength powers should affect it, because otherwise it is pretty worthless for anything with a strength power. Otherwise you've spent 2 refresh on a crappy pistol (shorter range) that you can hide really well (but that doesn't mean you always have access to it, bad guys can find a way to make sure you can't use it whether muzzling your mouth or whatever). Sure, you can theoretically run out of ammo, but that almost never happens. Overall that's garbage when a high strength character can just have a few throwing axes to lug around and they'll be weapon 2+strength bonuses (I believe a throwing axe would do more damage than a dagger). Or they can pick up things on the scene and toss them due to their high strength (heck, isn't that hard to throw PEOPLE as weapons). Heck, they'll pretty much get just as much mileage out of a bag of baseballs as they would a breath weapon (they can take those baseballs just about anywhere, and we could consider them weapon 0 as a base if we wanted) and that's just with INHUMAN strength.
For 2 refresh, it should scale with anything that increases weapon damage, otherwise it is a joke. Heck, 2 refresh is pretty expensive as it is...I'm not entirely convinced it shouldn't be just 1 refresh. (I'd say claws are similar and should be 0 refresh, except they give you an excellent weapon for the fist skill, which is pretty nice given some of the stunts available for fists).
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As long as I can still juggle Regular or Mythic fireballs with my asbestos gloves, I'll be happy ;)
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Strength powers should affect it, because otherwise it is pretty worthless for anything with a strength power. Otherwise you've spent 2 refresh on a crappy pistol (shorter range) that you can hide really well (but that doesn't mean you always have access to it, bad guys can find a way to make sure you can't use it whether muzzling your mouth or whatever). Sure, you can theoretically run out of ammo, but that almost never happens. Overall that's garbage when a high strength character can just have a few throwing axes to lug around and they'll be weapon 2+strength bonuses (I believe a throwing axe would do more damage than a dagger). Or they can pick up things on the scene and toss them due to their high strength (heck, isn't that hard to throw PEOPLE as weapons). Heck, they'll pretty much get just as much mileage out of a bag of baseballs as they would a breath weapon (they can take those baseballs just about anywhere, and we could consider them weapon 0 as a base if we wanted) and that's just with INHUMAN strength.
For 2 refresh, it should scale with anything that increases weapon damage, otherwise it is a joke. Heck, 2 refresh is pretty expensive as it is...I'm not entirely convinced it shouldn't be just 1 refresh. (I'd say claws are similar and should be 0 refresh, except they give you an excellent weapon for the fist skill, which is pretty nice given some of the stunts available for fists).
Not everything in the game is supposed to be balanced.
Breath weapons IIRC were primarily an ability that NPCs used too.
I think the ability is fine as is.
Consider: A PC with high weapons, a stunt to use anything they pick up as a weapon, and breath weapon would basically never be without a weapon they could use to deadly effect. Additionally, they'd be able to deal with opponents up close and farther away without missing a step.
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Tecnically as breath weapon is a throwing Weapon the power already includes the strength bonus and is useable by all weapon powers involving throwing given what the core book says. So to not add the bonus is a house rule rather than the reverse.
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Tecnically as breath weapon is a throwing Weapon the power already includes the strength bonus and is useable by all weapon powers involving throwing given what the core book says. So to not add the bonus is a house rule rather than the reverse.
Well, yes, that's true, but so is me being able to juggle those Breath Weapon attacks using the Stunt I brought up earlier. Sometimes the rules don't make sense or contain an unintended error or consequence that needs to be resolved afterwards with an errata.
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Tecnically as breath weapon is a throwing Weapon the power already includes the strength bonus and is useable by all weapon powers involving throwing given what the core book says. So to not add the bonus is a house rule rather than the reverse.
Actually, the strength bonus to Weapons only applies to Weapons where strength makes a difference. Strength doesn't make a difference when breathing fire. As of YS 183 and 184:
"With attacks that depend on
muscular force (Fists, thrown Weapons, etc.),
you are at +_ to damage,"
If you are throwing icicles or flaming poo, you would get the strength bonus. If you are breathing fire or shooting lasers out of your eyes, the attack isn't reliant on muscular force, and as such shouldn't get the strength bonus.
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Not everything in the game is supposed to be balanced.
No reason why it shouldn't be.
Breath weapons IIRC were primarily an ability that NPCs used too.
In the Books, sure, that's only because Dresden is a Wizard and didn't have any friends with a breath weapon. There are plenty of ways that players can have access to them.
Consider: A PC with high weapons, a stunt to use anything they pick up as a weapon, and breath weapon would basically never be without a weapon they could use to deadly effect. Additionally, they'd be able to deal with opponents up close and farther away without missing a step.
My reading of the rules is that someone with high weapons doesn't need any stunt that lets them use anything as a weapon. They already can do that. They can pick up a chair and use it as a weapon, if strong enough. If strong enough, they can pick up a chair and THROW it as a weapon. They could pick up a couch and throw it as a weapon. If they get a lift of 15, they can pick up a CAR and throw it (doable with Supernatural Strength, Hulking Size, Might 5, and Mighty Thews...or you could have Mythic Strength and rearrange things a bit..well, 14 is technically good enough for a small car). So again, someone with Inhuman Strength already has a breath weapon since they can toss baseballs (weapon 0, I'm saying, +2 for IS). Easy for them to carry a bag of baseballs (and I'm talking about 100 or so baseballs here), and they can basically have it all the time. If they get captured, the bag gets taken away. If someone with a breath weapon gets captured, they get muzzled or otherwise constrained so that they can't use it. Pretty much the same thing. If they have Supernatural Strength or better, then the bag of baseballs or anything they can grab in the environment, is far better than a breath weapon.
Overall, Breath Weapon is questionable enough as a 2 refresh ability. Not having it scale with Strength powers makes it pretty much a joke for any strong character who can literally grab anything near them and throw it to better effect.
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If you wanted to be pedantic you could argue tha Breathing comes under strength as strength is muscluar force and so at the very least the strength of your blowing would come from Your Strength.
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If you wanted to be pedantic you could argue tha Breathing comes under strength as strength is muscluar force and so at the very least the strength of your blowing would come from Your Strength.
I can be pretty pedantic! Also, if your breath weapon is something you toss as a monkey demon or ice balls forming in your hand, then those logically are enhanced by strength. It seems more fair to let players pick whatever aesthetics they want here, and let them all be affected by strength (again, not having it affected by strength makes it a dang pathetic weapon that costs a staggering 2 refresh....better to go with Supernatural Strength instead of Inhuman with a bag of baseballs than have Inhuman + Breath Weapon). Honestly, the Breath Weapon pricing is a little much.
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What I'm wondering Drachasor is what's going on in the games you're playing if you have to hit everything with a speeding mack truck on a regular basis? According to the rules Weapon:4 is the equivalent of high-explosives or getting hit by a semi, and shouldn't really be necessary most of the time. A weapon:2 that is ever present and also can be used for maneuvers or blocks is a fairly decent advantage. Yes it's not a car being thrown by someone with mythic strength but to be fair that's 6+ refresh (I say 6+ because technically a car is not a weapon and one would have a difficult time using it as one or might pick up a stunt for improvised weapons) and most of the time that much damage is ludicrous.
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What I'm wondering Drachasor is what's going on in the games you're playing if you have to hit everything with a speeding mack truck on a regular basis? According to the rules Weapon:4 is the equivalent of high-explosives or getting hit by a semi, and shouldn't really be necessary most of the time. A weapon:2 that is ever present and also can be used for maneuvers or blocks is a fairly decent advantage. Yes it's not a car being thrown by someone with mythic strength but to be fair that's 6+ refresh (I say 6+ because technically a car is not a weapon and one would have a difficult time using it as one or might pick up a stunt for improvised weapons) and most of the time that much damage is ludicrous.
I was just emphasizing how easy it is for someone with a ton of strength to find a thrown weapon, I wasn't saying they should just stick to cars...otherwise every fight has to take place in a parking lot. (And the rules explicitly if your lift is 6 higher than that required to lift the object, then you can use it as a thrown weapon, which is what I was basing this all off. A couch or the like just requires a lift of 9 which is super-easy to get if you have supernatural strength -- just need a might of 3). That means anything less heavy than a couch can be thrown as a weapon (people, computers, desks, books, televisions, etc).
I think my comparison of a guy with Supernatural Strength and a bag of baseballs vs. a guy with Inhuman Strength and a Breath Weapon demonstrate my point best though. The former is much stronger, much better in melee, can use thrown baseballs for maneuvers, etc, and can basically take them anywhere (security wouldn't stop someone with a bag of baseballs, I don't believe). The latter has paid the difference in refresh of strength to have something much like baseballs, but that in a very small set of circumstances is something they can still use. Oh, and the Supernatural Strength guy ALSO has their baseballs as a weapon 4 or 5 attack (depending on whether baseballs are weapon 0 or 1). A breath weapon is just ridiculously expensive for anyone with a Strength Power (and I'd argue it is probably ridiculously expensive in general).
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I was just emphasizing how easy it is for someone with a ton of strength to find a thrown weapon, I wasn't saying they should just stick to cars...otherwise every fight has to take place in a parking lot. (And the rules explicitly if your lift is 6 higher than that required to lift the object, then you can use it as a thrown weapon, which is what I was basing this all off. A couch or the like just requires a lift of 9 which is super-easy to get if you have supernatural strength -- just need a might of 3). That means anything less heavy than a couch can be thrown as a weapon (people, computers, desks, books, televisions, etc).
I think my comparison of a guy with Supernatural Strength and a bag of baseballs vs. a guy with Inhuman Strength and a Breath Weapon demonstrate my point best though. The former is much stronger, much better in melee, can use thrown baseballs for maneuvers, etc, and can basically take them anywhere (security wouldn't stop someone with a bag of baseballs, I don't believe). The latter has paid the difference in refresh of strength to have something much like baseballs, but that in a very small set of circumstances is something they can still use. Oh, and the Supernatural Strength guy ALSO has their baseballs as a weapon 4 or 5 attack (depending on whether baseballs are weapon 0 or 1). A breath weapon is just ridiculously expensive for anyone with a Strength Power (and I'd argue it is probably ridiculously expensive in general).
I'm not seeing your point here.
Unless someone with supernatural strength take breath weapons for flavor, they probably shouldn't get that skill anyway.
I'm really not seeing the problem here unless someone wants to munchkin out and be able to throw an unlimited supply of weapon: 2 with a supernatural strength modifier all the time.
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The sort of Characters who would take breath Weapon are demonic Scions, Demons, Fae and Dragons considering a Strength augmentation would fall naturally into all of those templates is why the question has meaning, say a Dragon has claws and Mythic Strength (As dragons are epic) his casual strike would do 8 shifts of damage so why the heck would he ever use a Breath Weapon of Fire that does 2 damage.
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I'm not seeing your point here.
Unless someone with supernatural strength take breath weapons for flavor, they probably shouldn't get that skill anyway.
I'm really not seeing the problem here unless someone wants to munchkin out and be able to throw an unlimited supply of weapon: 2 with a supernatural strength modifier all the time.
How's it munchkin? Really? It's extremely expensive to do that, and for that same cost you could have far better means of doing damage "all the time". They could just grab Mythic Strength and then toss anything near them at enemies...literally anything that wasn't nailed down would be a valid weapon for them. A bag of baseballs would be easy enough for someone to carry around, though they could go with any number of other things that are even smaller (golf balls, small rocks, whatever). They've spent TWO refresh to have something that's worse than the next level of strength. Anyone actually being a munchkin would go with more strength, not a breath weapon any day of the week.
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Personally, I think Breath Weapon is slightly overpriced for most games. I'd say that it's more like a 1.5 refresh power than a 2 refresh one. (Yes, I know that they don't use decimals.)
There are some games where Breath Weapon would be great, though. Like one where you spend most of your time in places where weapons are strictly forbidden. As with everything, situation is important.
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Personally, I think Breath Weapon is slightly overpriced for most games. I'd say that it's more like a 1.5 refresh power than a 2 refresh one. (Yes, I know that they don't use decimals.)
There are some games where Breath Weapon would be great, though. Like one where you spend most of your time in places where weapons are strictly forbidden. As with everything, situation is important.
+1
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Personally, I think Breath Weapon is slightly overpriced for most games. I'd say that it's more like a 1.5 refresh power than a 2 refresh one. (Yes, I know that they don't use decimals.)
There are some games where Breath Weapon would be great, though. Like one where you spend most of your time in places where weapons are strictly forbidden. As with everything, situation is important.
Eh, if you spend most of your time in places where weapons are strictly forbidden and the GM often throws combat at you there, then he's really being kind of a jerk (for most groups). That strongly favors wizards, things with claws, and so forth, and strongly disfavors pure mortals (generally speaking). Well, guys with strength or great might will be ok, as they can use most anything as a weapon, as I understand the rules (pick up a chair, metal bar, whatever).
Really all that a Breath Weapon REALLY does is essentially let you be really, really good at hiding your weapon in most circumstances (though things familiar with you will still be able to bind you so you can't use it). Ammo, in most cases, doesn't matter that much, even if we are talking about knives and such. Now, it IS an upgrade for damage for people without inhuman strength, but it inhuman strength costs as much and is a bigger upgrade and upgrades other things. How much is it worth to be able to hide things? 0 Refresh, as Human Form shows (e.g. it's just an opposed roll in any case). So truly the benefit is very, very small, and AGAIN it is no benefit at all to anyone with any sort of strength power.
Breath Weapon is worth 1 refresh at most. Compare it to claws.
Range: 1 zone away vs. same zone.
Skill: Weapons vs. Fists (this is a huge improvement for fists, which have a number of pretty handy stunts, actually, whereas BW is little to no improvement for weapons).
Both do one thing kind of nice. BW gives you a bigger range than melee (though no better than any other thrown weapon) and Claws tremendously improve fist attacks (in a way that competes with the stunt for fists that let you use fists for any weapon). They both have unlimited ammo and are harder to get removed from your person in a small number of circumstances. Overall, they compare pretty evenly to each other, and their value primarily depends on whether you want to be using fists or weapons to attack (if you were trying to choose between one or the other) -- naturally breath weapon allows ranged attacks, but WEAPONS already allows that and fists don't, so the difference between fists and BW is rather small there.
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I don't really want to get into an argument with someone who seems to have made up his mind already, but I think that you're underestimating the value of having a possibly non-physical damage causing weapon.
If a character can breathe flame, then not only do they have a self-generating thrown weapon: 2, basically a hand gun that they can never lose, but they can also use it to do anything that fire can, such as satisfy catches, create light, set something on fire, etc. Also, it's actually really difficult to stop someone from breathing if you still want them alive, obviously. Even if forced into a muzzle that completely stops them from opening their mouth... why wouldn't they be able to snort flames?
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I don't really want to get into an argument with someone who seems to have made up his mind already, but I think that you're underestimating the value of having a possibly non-physical damage causing weapon.
I'm just saying 2 refresh is something that is quite expensive. Compared to other 2 refresh powers, BW doesn't seem to compare well.
If a character can breathe flame, then not only do they have a self-generating thrown weapon: 2, basically a hand gun that they can never lose, but they can also use it to do anything that fire can, such as satisfy catches, create light, set something on fire, etc. Also, it's actually really difficult to stop someone from breathing if you still want them alive, obviously. Even if forced into a muzzle that completely stops them from opening their mouth... why wouldn't they be able to snort flames?
It can equally NOT satisfy catches that a gun could satisfy (in fact, a gun can satisfy multiple types of catches if you have the proper ammo). A Breath Weapon is a part of you that is inflexible in how it can be used since it is stuck as one element. And using fire breath to brighten a room would tend to end in a building on fire, I'd think. And there are plenty of ways to handle a breath weapon. If a muzzle doesn't work (and in a lot of cases, I think it would), you can simply place them in a stone or similar room, tied up, turned to a wall. Against anyone who knew of the breath weapon, if they captured you then part of the concession would be neutralizing that weapon (better than being dead).
Anyhow, I'm not saying it isn't useful, I'm just saying it is worse than anything else that requires 2 refresh, and it is about comparable to something that requires 1.
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Couple things I disagree with you about, Drachasor.
First, a GM isn't necessarily a jerk for putting the players at a disadvantage. If the players know about and are fine with it beforehand, there's no problem.
Second, the fact that Breath Weapon is linked to Weapons while Claws is linked to fists is not a disadvantage.
That being said, I think Breath Weapon is a little weak. In most games, it won't be worth it mechanically.
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One of the things that nobody is mentioning is that the breath weapon (if thematically appropriate) has a much wider variety of tactical options than claws and almost as many as strength. Using fire breath as an example one could create a zone border, as a block, or create a whole slew of different environmental aspects (There's the obvious "the room's on fire" but more subtly, one could Melt pipes for "spray of water", or unevenly heat the ground to cause it to crack for "uneven footing"). For that matter, since most people are afraid of heat one could maneuver socially or inflict behavioral aspects on a person within physical conflict. These aspects could be much more subtle than any physical force and as such, in social conflict one could use it to embarrass or endear (instead of just frightening like most physical forces).
I'm not sure if this is actually worth the additional refresh as it's only a little bit more flexible, but maybe with all of the other advantages (range, concealment)? I don't know, but I do know that it seems much better than claws (I.E. more than 1 refresh).
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One of the things that nobody is mentioning is that the breath weapon (if thematically appropriate) has a much wider variety of tactical options than claws and almost as many as strength. Using fire breath as an example one could create a zone border, as a block, or create a whole slew of different environmental aspects (There's the obvious "the room's on fire" but more subtly, one could Melt pipes for "spray of water", or unevenly heat the ground to cause it to crack for "uneven footing"). For that matter, since most people are afraid of heat one could maneuver socially or inflict behavioral aspects on a person within physical conflict. These aspects could be much more subtle than any physical force and as such, in social conflict one could use it to embarrass or endear (instead of just frightening like most physical forces).
I'm not sure if this is actually worth the additional refresh as it's only a little bit more flexible, but maybe with all of the other advantages (range, concealment)? I don't know, but I do know that it seems much better than claws (I.E. more than 1 refresh).
I don't see anything in the rules that says you can use it to make a zone border or the like. Sure, if you breath fire you can start fires with it (not that fires are hard to start), but that doesn't make it so that you can make a new zone border. Now sure, you can make people uncomfortable with heat a bit uneasy in a social situation if you breath fire (there are other breath weapons, btw), but people uncomfortable with guns or violence can be made uncomfortable in a similar manner covertly as well; nothing special about breath weapons here.
One can claw pipes open to have "spray of water", shoot a gasket in them for the same effect, and any number of other things -- assuming you can even melt them with a breath weapon, that metal is going to be pretty tough (but we'll assume that's doable). You can spray some bullets on the ground to create "dangerous footing" or the like. One can set up blocks with guns, claws, or the like as well. A breath weapon is different, but not tremendously more flexible.
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I don't see anything in the rules that says you can use it to make a zone border or the like. Sure, if you breath fire you can start fires with it (not that fires are hard to start), but that doesn't make it so that you can make a new zone border.
A zone border being the equivilant of offensive block armor against movement I could see it being reasonable, however it's true, it's not RAW.
Now sure, you can make people uncomfortable with heat a bit uneasy in a social situation if you breath fire (there are other breath weapons, btw), but people uncomfortable with guns or violence can be made uncomfortable in a similar manner covertly as well; nothing special about breath weapons here.
The one thing I brought up that you didn't refute is the subtlety in a breath weapon. Sure you can invoke fear in others with guns or violence, but can you startle them with a small fire that (if done cleverly) can't be linked to you? Can you embarrass them by subtly burning bits of their clothes? Can you endear others to you by performing tricks or providing a convenient light (of note on the topic of light I'm assuming that one would use a small fire to light something flammable as opposed to breathing a big ball of flame for light)?
You can spray some bullets on the ground to create "dangerous footing" or the like.
This I don't like thematically as bullets are designed to punch through things rather than stress them, but that's a personal opinion.
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I don't see anything in the rules that says you can use it to make a zone border or the like. Sure, if you breath fire you can start fires with it (not that fires are hard to start), but that doesn't make it so that you can make a new zone border. Now sure, you can make people uncomfortable with heat a bit uneasy in a social situation if you breath fire (there are other breath weapons, btw), but people uncomfortable with guns or violence can be made uncomfortable in a similar manner covertly as well; nothing special about breath weapons here.
One can claw pipes open to have "spray of water", shoot a gasket in them for the same effect, and any number of other things -- assuming you can even melt them with a breath weapon, that metal is going to be pretty tough (but we'll assume that's doable). You can spray some bullets on the ground to create "dangerous footing" or the like. One can set up blocks with guns, claws, or the like as well. A breath weapon is different, but not tremendously more flexible.
I don't understand why you are trolling about this.
We get your point. I promise. To some extent we agree with it that 2 refresh is kind of a high cost. I'm sure it was meant to be equivalent to claws.
However, arguing here over and over again is just beating the dead horse and it's not going to magically change the RAW. I'm not being an apologist for the RAW, just pointing out the futility of regurgitating the same argument over and over and over again.
Hanging on to whatever negative emotions you have for this power won't help anything. If you don't like it, you're free to either GM a campaign and make it cost 1 refresh, or petition your GM for the power to cost 1 refresh.
Those are your realistic options. Perpetually posting about your frustration with the power does not accomplish anything.
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I don't understand why you are trolling about this.
Discussing and trolling aren't the same. I have reasons for my opinion and I am open to counter-arguments. The latter so far have been pretty weak, which I guess is why you are telling me I should just drop my point. If you don't want to participate in a discussion about the rules and whether a particular one is right or not, that's fine and your choice. I don't have to follow your personal preference, however.
A zone border being the equivilant of offensive block armor against movement I could see it being reasonable, however it's true, it's not RAW.
If it allowed such things, then I'd say it was worth it. Remember, it would have to allow it for any sort of breath weapon, whether mucus, lightning, acid, or whatever.
The one thing I brought up that you didn't refute is the subtlety in a breath weapon. Sure you can invoke fear in others with guns or violence, but can you startle them with a small fire that (if done cleverly) can't be linked to you? Can you embarrass them by subtly burning bits of their clothes? Can you endear others to you by performing tricks or providing a convenient light (of note on the topic of light I'm assuming that one would use a small fire to light something flammable as opposed to breathing a big ball of flame for light)?
I don't see how it couldn't be linked to you, unless they weren't paying attention. The fire or whatever comes from your body. They'd literally have to not be paying any attention to you to not notice fire coming out of you. Also, you arguments seem very much about fire breath, but Breath Weapon covers anything. As for tricks, you can do that with guns or any number of other skills easily enough. Heck, you can do that just with weapons without spending any refresh. I grant Breath Weapon opens up some maneuvers here and there (that you can do instead of other maneuvers you might instead do), but that sort of thing isn't worth a whole refresh on its own, anymore than having claws you can hide (via human guise) is worth an 2 refresh since you can do maneuvers with it.
As for the size of a fire to start something, doesn't make much of a difference in many situations whether you use a match, breath weapon, incendiary, or magic.
This I don't like thematically as bullets are designed to punch through things rather than stress them, but that's a personal opinion.
I meant you are putting down a spray of bullets kind of like covering fire...they have to watch where they step so they don't get shot.
Anyhow, yes, like any sort of weapon, Breath Weapon opens itself up to some maneuvers (so does Strength for that matter). But comparing Breath Weapon to a Strength upgrade it comes up way short. Comparing it to Claws and they seem pretty similar in power (Breath Weapon might have a small lead, but not a very big one). Overall I think that firmly plants it as a -1 refresh power and hence it is pretty darn expensive. Back to the point of the thread, there's no reason not to allow them to benefit from strength since it is such a weak power (for the cost) to begin with -- doing this keeps Breath Weapon relevant to people with strength powers.
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I don't understand why you are trolling about this.
This was a bit uncalled for bear. We are simply discussing, there has been no ill will.
Discussing and trolling aren't the same. I have reasons for my opinion and I am open to counter-arguments. The latter so far have been pretty weak, which I guess is why you are telling me I should just drop my point.
Also a little harsh. I understand if you don't agree with my points but I think at the very least they have been well made.
I've realized something about the core of this argument. You seem to believe that breath weapon is limited in use and as such believe that it's cost should be reduced. I think we can all agree that it's a bit limited, however I believe that the better way to deal with that is by increasing it's use. To be honest I don't like the idea of reducing it's cost, because at 1 refresh there is then no cost difference between claws and breath weapon and then there's no good reason not to take the one that has range and the ability to be hidden, so it reduces the usefulness of claws (which is fairly useful and totally worth a single refresh IMO). So what it comes down to is would you rather reduce the usefulness of other things or increase the usefulness of breath weapon?
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Ultimately, the issue is one of system granularity. Claws (-1 Refresh) are demonstrably more useful than having bare fists (0 Refresh), and Breath Weapon is demonstrably more useful than Claws because of range, in every game system there has ever been, but another Refresh is quite an investment. One I think is sufficient, but some compelling examples have shown that it is easily exceeded by a particular character build and a rather strange but effective choice of weapon.
So perhaps having the Strength Boost to Breath Weapon power - well not justifiable in some cases - is not so game-breaking, in light of the discussion. I'll be happy to drop Juggling as a counter-example. And if a GM is able to reward a Breath Weapon with other advantages in exchange for denying it the Strength bonus, alright. I like the idea of setting up Zone Borders.
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Also a little harsh. I understand if you don't agree with my points but I think at the very least they have been well made.
My apologies.
I've realized something about the core of this argument. You seem to believe that breath weapon is limited in use and as such believe that it's cost should be reduced. I think we can all agree that it's a bit limited, however I believe that the better way to deal with that is by increasing it's use. To be honest I don't like the idea of reducing it's cost, because at 1 refresh there is then no cost difference between claws and breath weapon and then there's no good reason not to take the one that has range and the ability to be hidden, so it reduces the usefulness of claws (which is fairly useful and totally worth a single refresh IMO). So what it comes down to is would you rather reduce the usefulness of other things or increase the usefulness of breath weapon?
You'd take claws to use with fists, but I agree BW would have an advantage there (just not a 1 refresh advantage) -- though I think as written BW doesn't scale with strength (Claws mentions it explicitly, and not everything that uses weapons scales with strength such as grenades), so there's an advantage to fists there. Hmm, bit tricky to decide how to scale it up. I think there are 3 possible ways.
1. Scales with Strength Powers (this only affects people who take strength powers though, so insufficient on its own).
2. Allows Spray Attacks
3. Allows creation of zone borders.
Perhaps all 3, but Spray Attacks and/or zone borders have a cost (perhaps a mental stress?)
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2. Allows Spray Attacks
I don't know that a Spray Attack with a Breath Weapon is *impossible* in the RAW: YS 326 says "Some weapons have the ability to affect multiple targets in one attack, either because they have full-auto firing capabilities (military SMGs and assault rifles) or because there’s some kind of consistency or spread in the shape of the attack (flamethrowers or shotguns)." This could be debated, though.
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I was just going to say I think technically they can already do spray attacks, as the only thing the RAW requires for them is thematic justification.
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I don't know that a Spray Attack with a Breath Weapon is *impossible* in the RAW: YS 326 says "Some weapons have the ability to affect multiple targets in one attack, either because they have full-auto firing capabilities (military SMGs and assault rifles) or because there’s some kind of consistency or spread in the shape of the attack (flamethrowers or shotguns)." This could be debated, though.
As a thrown weapon, this doesn't seem to make sense. BW is clearly written, imho, as shooting out a little projectile of some sort (my read anyhow), but I guess it is up to the GM. If it allowed such attacks, it should say it explicitly, imho.
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I think there are good arguments on every side of this debate, honestly.
This is why rules vary from campaign to campaign and ultimately thing like this are up the the GM's discretion.
If I were GMing, I'd rule that a PC who actually throws their breath weapon could get a strength modifier out of it, but it depends on what they throw.
Making fire hotter makes it more destructive- not projecting it faster at a target.
Whereas if someone's "breath weapons" are icicles that they spit out of their mouth and then throw, adding a strength bonus would make sense.
::shrug::
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I think there are good arguments on every side of this debate, honestly.
This is why rules vary from campaign to campaign and ultimately thing like this are up the the GM's discretion.
If I were GMing, I'd rule that a PC who actually throws their breath weapon could get a strength modifier out of it, but it depends on what they throw.
Making fire hotter makes it more destructive- not projecting it faster at a target.
Whereas if someone's "breath weapons" are icicles that they spit out of their mouth and then throw, adding a strength bonus would make sense.
::shrug::
And for consistency, I'd say you should just allow strength then for any breath weapon, otherwise it strongly encourages players to focus on a description that allows that bonus rather than one that appeals to them aesthetically.
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As a thrown weapon, this doesn't seem to make sense. BW is clearly written, imho, as shooting out a little projectile of some sort (my read anyhow), but I guess it is up to the GM. If it allowed such attacks, it should say it explicitly, imho.
One could spit/throw/exude/launch a series of smaller projectiles.
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Or just do flamethrower from your mouth though I would rate an actual flamethrower as +3 rather than +2
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Have to say I agree BW is worth more than Claws and not as much as Inhuman Strength. I'd allow players some creative flexibility to make up for it. Allowing area attacks, split targets, and suppressive fire as well as maneuvers and single target attacks goes a long way towards making it up. Even sustained attacks might work. That said, it would be up to the player to make it fit the story.
If it allowed...it should say it explicitly...
Have to say I take the opposite approach these days. I don't have time for systems which try to create rules for every situation.
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If you were GMing and set a dragon as a roadblock,how would you model a dragons fire breathing power, I wrote up a Dragon build which involved incite emotion, Mythic Toughness, Mythic Strength, Physicial Imunity (catch true herorism) but however I look it breath weapon at weapons 2 seems silly for an impossible road block NPC in the end i just used Sponsored Magic Dragon Fire. If you wanted to model a dragons fire as abreath weapon how would you do it.
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If you were GMing and set a dragon as a roadblock,how would you model a dragons fire breathing power, I wrote up a Dragon build which involved incite emotion, Mythic Toughness, Mythic Strength, Physicial Imunity (catch true herorism) but however I look it breath weapon at weapons 2 seems silly for an impossible road block NPC in the end i just used Sponsored Magic Dragon Fire. If you wanted to model a dragons fire as abreath weapon how would you do it.
You just arbitrarily wave your GM wand and say the Dragon's breath attack is a weapon 4 or weapon 5.
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Have to say I take the opposite approach these days. I don't have time for systems which try to create rules for every situation.
Not saying it should. Random situations are covered by temporary, scene, and location aspects pretty well. There are already rules for spray attacks though, and I don't see why it is crazy to expect it to say whether some supernatural weapon can use them or not. Given that it seems you typically can't use them with Weapons (there's a stunt for melee weapons, for instance), seems like you wouldn't be able to with a breath weapon.
Anyhow, rather immaterial, I think...I had other stuff in that post, but everyone hates me and has ignored it *cries*
If you were GMing and set a dragon as a roadblock,how would you model a dragons fire breathing power, I wrote up a Dragon build which involved incite emotion, Mythic Toughness, Mythic Strength, Physicial Imunity (catch true herorism) but however I look it breath weapon at weapons 2 seems silly for an impossible road block NPC in the end i just used Sponsored Magic Dragon Fire. If you wanted to model a dragons fire as abreath weapon how would you do it.
Have Strength powers add to Breath Weapon attacks, whatever form they might take, and this is covered nicely. A Dragon with Supernatural Strength would have a Weapon 6 Breath Weapon. Add in some of the optional stuff I proposed and it is worth 2 refresh, I think (and pretty cool to have a dragon that can make zone barriers and such even if it has no magic).
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Upgrade options like Incite Emotion might be good
e.g.
Potent Breath [-1]: increases to Weapon:4
Vast Breath [-1, requires Potent Breath]: The breath weapon can be divided as a spray attack, or can act as a Weapon:2 attack affecting an entire zone
I agree Breath Weapon is a bit underpowered, it's not really a full refresh point better than Claws. (Given that Claws allows strength bonuses, I wonder if it really shouldn't be just a -1 ability?)
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I agree Breath Weapon is a bit underpowered, it's not really a full refresh point better than Claws. (Given that Claws allows strength bonuses, I wonder if it really shouldn't be just a -1 ability?)
Originally, Claws only gave a single extra damage shift (i.e. weapon: 1), however, the community argued that it was too weak for a [-1] refresh power.
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If you were GMing and set a dragon...how would you do it.
I'd model fire breathing with a combination of breath weapon and fire channeling. Breath weapon gives it a quick no stress attack and channeling gives it a far more powerful 'breath' attack. I'd probably also come up with a few stunts / minor powers related to how it used fire.
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Originally, Claws only gave a single extra damage shift (i.e. weapon: 1), however, the community argued that it was too weak for a [-1] refresh power.
Oops, that was really badly worded. I meant, "given that Claws allows strength bonuses, maybe Breath Weapon isn't actually better -- lack of strength bonuses balancing the range -- so maybe Breath should be just -1." Not that Claws should cost more.
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If you were GMing and set a dragon as a roadblock,how would you model a dragons fire breathing power, I wrote up a Dragon build which involved incite emotion, Mythic Toughness, Mythic Strength, Physicial Imunity (catch true herorism) but however I look it breath weapon at weapons 2 seems silly for an impossible road block NPC in the end i just used Sponsored Magic Dragon Fire. If you wanted to model a dragons fire as abreath weapon how would you do it.
I'd quote Fred on this.
Bad guys? They cheat.
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I'd quote Fred on this.
Ironically, that was referring to a bad guy who was really bad at it, as he was missing a 1.5x Refinement slots.
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Yeah, apparently Fred's bad guys cheat poorly. :)
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And for consistency, I'd say you should just allow strength then for any breath weapon, otherwise it strongly encourages players to focus on a description that allows that bonus rather than one that appeals to them aesthetically.
Uh... I disagree.
Not everyone plays to do the most damage. I mean, if that is what someone wanted they could play a wizard or something with supernatural strength and claws.
I'm actually considering getting a fire breath weapon now if my character gets high enough level.
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The only way to justify that is playing the fourth billygoat gruff, a wizard with strength and claws
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I mean, if that is what someone wanted they could play a wizard or something with supernatural strength and claws.
The only way to justify that is playing the fourth billygoat gruff, a wizard with strength and claws though that probably isn't what you meant.
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Uh... I disagree.
Not everyone plays to do the most damage. I mean, if that is what someone wanted they could play a wizard or something with supernatural strength and claws.
Naturally many players don't optimize, which is all the more reason the rules should be friendly to players who are most interested in thematics/aesthetics/style. The benefit of pure optimization should be kept as small as is reasonable, and imho it is egregiously bad design/gming to give one person a tremendous benefit if they have different FLUFF on an ability compared to another person with other fluff. Giving the strength benefit to someone that takes Breath Weapon if they describe it one way vs. not giving it to them if they describe it another is just a bad call. Rule one way or the other for how it works for all people taking Breath Weapon and that enables the players greater freedom in describing how it works for their character.
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The only way to justify that is playing the fourth billygoat gruff, a wizard with strength and claws though that probably isn't what you meant.
I have an "or" in there.
It's not impossible, though. Emissaries of power can get physical buffs too.
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Naturally many players don't optimize, which is all the more reason the rules should be friendly to players who are most interested in thematics/aesthetics/style. The benefit of pure optimization should be kept as small as is reasonable, and imho it is egregiously bad design/gming to give one person a tremendous benefit if they have different FLUFF on an ability compared to another person with other fluff. Giving the strength benefit to someone that takes Breath Weapon if they describe it one way vs. not giving it to them if they describe it another is just a bad call. Rule one way or the other for how it works for all people taking Breath Weapon and that enables the players greater freedom in describing how it works for their character.
I see this is a difference between your style and mine. You're looking at fluff as just that, fluff. However in DFRPG a lot of the rules have to do with what is thematically appropriate. Does something perform a spray attack? If it's thematically appropriate it does (I.E. if the fluff is right). Does an aspect give you a bonus to this situation? If it's thematically appropriate. There are a lot of unfair advantages that being clever with the theme can get you, and it's exactly what DFRPG is about. Being clever with the flavor.
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I see this is a difference between your style and mine. You're looking at fluff as just that, fluff. However in DFRPG a lot of the rules have to do with what is thematically appropriate. Does something perform a spray attack? If it's thematically appropriate it does (I.E. if the fluff is right). Does an aspect give you a bonus to this situation? If it's thematically appropriate. There are a lot of unfair advantages that being clever with the theme can get you, and it's exactly what DFRPG is about. Being clever with the flavor.
Yes, of course, but given people who describe their Breath Weapon one way the bonus to damage due to Strength Powers and not giving it to those who describe it a different way is still unfair and goes far beyond the use of aspects and such. It's very nearly given one group of people a free invoke of an aspect (or multiple free invokes) every time they use their Breath Weapon (certainly every time they hit). And you can argue a justification for a spray attack (which are generally rather weak anyhow) in either one of those two groups.
Aspects go beyond flavor and into rules, and certainly the flavor is part of the rules there. That's a good thing, and it gives power to the imagination, the creativity, of the players. Further, you can be creative with it at any time. A new person might have a lot to learn and it could be many sessions before they are using aspects well, but once they catch on, they can use it just as well as anything else. This is not at all the case if the GM makes a connection between the fluff of a breath weapon and whether or not it works with strength powers. The player gets tied to that description in a way that goes far beyond how aspects work, and they are stuck there unless they really change their description in what should be a fairly minor respect (and it doesn't affect anything else about what aspects they can use with the weapon, etc...generally speaking). That sort of thing should be avoided whenever possible, because it makes many players start worrying far too much about min-maxing descriptions than picking ones that they find cool and appropriate for their character.
I'd argue that breath weapons should either all give spray attacks or none give them as well. IMHO, as written none of them do (that should be something mentioned, like how claws get strength bonuses). But there's certainly no reason why any basic description of a breath weapon, whether it is something thrown, breathed, shot out of the eyes, or whatever, couldn't be fluffed into doing a spray attack if the GM says BW can do that (you only have to justify how they can hit multiple targets...easy enough).
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I'm just trying to point out that a lot of the RAW in DFRPG is about "what makes sense." Ultimately you can (and should) do what ever works best for you, just as I can, however if you look at the rules they will ask you "what makes sense thematically?"
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Most games make a great effort to be fair, and fail. This one doesn't make nearly as much effort, and does just as well.
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Most games make a great effort to be fair, and fail. This one doesn't make nearly as much effort, and does just as well.
Most games actually don't make much of an effort to be fair (D&D is a classic example of this, for what it is worth). A simplified ruleset makes it easier to be fair however which this game has. In general, as a GM I have always found it best to make rulings that maximize player creativity and freedom while not providing tricks to increase min-maxers. Going to far into "whatever fluff you have for your ability is going to govern how it interacts with things like Supernatural Strength and other non-fluff things" can quickly make a game give too much power to min-maxing and then it further hurts the players who are just trying to be creative and care a lot about aesthetics over other things.
Aspects are a flexible and good system for handling how fluff interacts with the game, and that's where it should remain. (Stuff like spray attacks are actually spelled out in the rules pretty well, guns need to be fully automatic or have a spread in their fire, flamethrowers, etc, for what it is worth, anything described in particular, like evocations, explicitly mentions if it can be used to make spray attacks, and stunts are available for other things).
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To be fair, in your attempt to encourage player creativity of fluff, you're actually discouraging other forms of creativity. What if one of your players says "I want to breathe fire! I'm taking breath weapon." And later on they say "I want to draw my fire breath across the whole crowd!" Your response is going to be "I'm sorry breath weapons can't do that?"
It's interesting that in attempting to discourage min-maxing you're also discouraging creative use of resources in play. I find that the best way to discourage min-maxing is by discouraging min-maxing. Maybe I'm just lucky in that I play with a group of like minded adults who are willing to try their hardest to ensure that everyone at the table has a good time, and are mostly open to fair criticism.
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To be fair, in your attempt to encourage player creativity of fluff, you're actually discouraging other forms of creativity. What if one of your players says "I want to breathe fire! I'm taking breath weapon." And later on they say "I want to draw my fire breath across the whole crowd!" Your response is going to be "I'm sorry breath weapons can't do that?"
It's interesting that in attempting to discourage min-maxing you're also discouraging creative use of resources in play. I find that the best way to discourage min-maxing is by discouraging min-maxing. Maybe I'm just lucky in that I play with a group of like minded adults who are willing to try their hardest to ensure that everyone at the table has a good time, and are mostly open to fair criticism.
Well, I cry foul on that. First, my judgment on spray attacks is completely separate to my judgment on how Strength Powers should work with Breath Weapon. The latter is actually two judgments, first that all breath weapons should be treated the same way in that regard, and second is that SP should stack with Breath Weapons. Saying that those two judgements about SPs is somehow affecting my judgment about Spray Attacks, isn't fair. Personally, I tend to view Spray Attacks as somewhat weak and Breath Weapon as overpriced, so I don't think I'd have a problem letting them work with Breath Weapons. That, I think, you have confused with my evaluation of what the rules say, which is also a different judgment altogether. The rules indicate to me that Strength Powers are not intended to work with Breath Weapons (but they do work with Claws), and that they don't allow Spray Attacks with Breath Weapons. I don't feel extremely bound to the rules as written, especially when they overprice something, but it is important to be aware of what they are.
Would I also be guilty of being against player creativity if someone with a Halberd wanted to do a spray attack on multiple people in the zone and I said "no, you don't have the right stunt for that"?
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I apologize if that came across as harsh, it wasn't my intent. But to be fair you did say earlier that you would allow all breath weapons spray attacks, or allow none (and it seemed like you were leaning towards none since the power didn't specifically state it). I wasn't really stating anything about your thoughts on strength powers (unless it was a slight implication that you're making similar judgments).
I guess this is just a difference between the two of us. I like putting the theme ahead of the rules (or lack thereof) even if it means a little fudging later or asking someone to stop taking advantage of my generosity. You clearly put an importance on a structured set of rules that apply fairly to all (or most), and to be honest had you talked to me about it a few years ago I may have agreed with you. I am a rules-lawyer at heart.
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I apologize if that came across as harsh, it wasn't my intent. But to be fair you did say earlier that you would allow all breath weapons spray attacks, or allow none (and it seemed like you were leaning towards none since the power didn't specifically state it). I wasn't really stating anything about your thoughts on strength powers (unless it was a slight implication that you're making similar judgments).
I apologize if I wasn't clear. I hadn't fully thought about it earlier, so I didn't commit to a particular position.
I guess this is just a difference between the two of us. I like putting the theme ahead of the rules (or lack thereof) even if it means a little fudging later or asking someone to stop taking advantage of my generosity. You clearly put an importance on a structured set of rules that apply fairly to all (or most), and to be honest had you talked to me about it a few years ago I may have agreed with you. I am a rules-lawyer at heart.
Theme is very important, I agree. As a GM, I think one has a responsibility to make sure the theme a particular player has WORKS. One thing I hate about D&D (well, not so much 4th Edition, it has its own problems though), is that very often the thematic concept a player can have sucks in practice. Fighter-mages (also known more generally as a Gish), for instance, are crap for a lot of levels and take a lot of work to be really effective. A lot of fighter concepts can really suck or just be overspecialized (perhaps that should be "all fighter concepts"...depending on level of course). (The other thing I hate about D&D is how insanely random it is). What I don't like about Breath Weapon by RAW is it is kind of a crappy way to spend 2 refresh. I'm not against a person having a breath weapon or stylizing it however they want, but I think if I were running a game I'd want to make sure the 2 refresh was worth it and stacked up well to other uses of 2 refresh. To me that's something of critical importance, because if the players trust you to have their backs regarding the fairness of game mechanics, then they can feel free to pursue whatever sort of thematic features they want without having to worry about whether they'll be effective or not. I tend to play with people concerned about effectiveness and that sort of thing (and as a player I admit I am someone like that, but also someone who hates it when something I love thematically just can't work mechanically and so I must subjugate my desires to whatever the particular system happens to support well or kind of suck).
If I was running a game in the DFRPG, and someone picked something I felt wasn't worth the refresh after careful consideration or after playing for a while, I'd give them some options on how to boost it up -- I'd probably have more than one idea, but all the ideas together would be too powerful.
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I can agree with most of that.
To me that's something of critical importance, because if the players trust you to have their backs regarding the fairness of game mechanics, then they can feel free to pursue whatever sort of thematic features they want without having to worry about whether they'll be effective or not. I tend to play with people concerned about effectiveness and that sort of thing (and as a player I admit I am someone like that, but also someone who hates it when something I love thematically just can't work mechanically and so I must subjugate my desires to whatever the particular system happens to support well or kind of suck).
I think sometimes that I've been gaming for so long with many of the same people that I forget that there are people who don't automatically go through that whole process internally and instinctively. Thanks for the reminder Drachasor.