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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Madmacabre on January 21, 2011, 02:46:13 PM

Title: Wards and Landmine
Post by: Madmacabre on January 21, 2011, 02:46:13 PM
Hello all...

Let's say you have a 6 shifts ward with a 4 shift landmine attached to it.

1) When does the landmine explode? (a) When the ward is "attacked", (b) when an attack actually bypass it, or (c) when the ward is destroyed?

2) In the event of (a) and (b), how many times can the landmine be activated? Is this a one shot deal? Does it have "charges"?


Thanks a lot guys!
Title: Re: Wards and Landmine
Post by: Lanodantheon on January 21, 2011, 03:07:29 PM
The way you are wording it, I am going off the assumption that you mean a mechanical explosive Landmine.

But there is a big difference between burying a land mine beneath a ward and carving a rune into the side.

1) With magic around chances are it doesn't. Landmines are mechanical devices yes, but they do malfunction like everything else. Being close to a Ward would do bad things to it.

But it would also depend on how you set it up. If the Ward is meant to fry things, then the Ward would set it off when someone hit the Ward.

2) Land mines only work once. They are mechanical devices that go boom.

If you are talking about a Land Mine-like magical effect(like Harry's Wards), it depends on how many shifts you put into uses. 1 use base + 2 uses/shift.

If the Ward is meant as a Block, then the Land Mine will go off when you specify.
Title: Re: Wards and Landmine
Post by: devonapple on January 21, 2011, 03:57:24 PM
Quote from: Lanodantheon on January 21, 2011, 03:07:29 PM
The way you are wording it, I am going off the assumption that you mean a mechanical explosive Landmine.

I think we should assume the opposite, that the OP means Ward-related landmines - YS 276-7 specifically calls them "landmines" over and over. I'd have called them "Wardmines," just to eliminate confusion, but it is the way that it is.

Quote from: Madmacabre on January 21, 2011, 02:46:13 PM
1) When does the landmine explode? (a) When the ward is "attacked", (b) when an attack actually bypass it, or (c) when the ward is destroyed?
2) In the event of (a) and (b), how many times can the landmine be activated? Is this a one shot deal? Does it have "charges"?

The "Wardmine" - as written in the rules - goes off when breached (YS 2776 and also 277), and since the Ward is gone when breached, the spell matrix holding the Wardmine would be gone too, after it exploded. So, question 1 is option b and also c, since bypassing a ward traditionally means one has destroyed it, and the Wardmine would be one shot.

Charges would be irrelevant because the Ward holding it would be gone. If you wanted multiple separate evocation effects to happen when it was breached, you'd just add them into the Ritual as extra Complexity, but they would all go off at once when breached.
Title: Re: Wards and Landmine
Post by: Madmacabre on January 21, 2011, 04:10:43 PM
Mmmm...

So if you have a 6 shift ward...and someone does a 8 shift attack on it, 2 shift bypass it.

Does it mean that its breached?

Or must you use the extra shifts from attacks to reduce the value of the ward all the way down to zero to actually "bypass" a ward?




BTW thaks for the help guys!
Title: Re: Wards and Landmine
Post by: devonapple on January 21, 2011, 04:16:56 PM
Quote from: Madmacabre on January 21, 2011, 04:10:43 PM
So if you have a 6 shift ward...and someone does a 8 shift attack on it, 2 shift bypass it.
Does it mean that its breached?
Or must you use the extra shifts from attacks to reduce the value of the ward all the way down to zero to actually "bypass" a ward?

Wards aren't ablative - they just collapse when overcome by damage. So that 8-shift attack brings it down, same as a normal Block (Shield spell) and you are correct in that 2 shifts go through to affect whoever the original target was.

On a related note, Sanctaphrax made a nice little cheat sheet here (http://Wards aren't ablative - they just collapse when overcome by damage.).

And no: it's not quite a Shield spell (since it reflects attacks back on aggressors), so I don't believe one can change it to "Armor" (which provides half the protection but sticks around when overcome) so it lasts longer - those extra shifts could instead go towards setting up an additional layer of Ward.
Title: Re: Wards and Landmine
Post by: Lanodantheon on January 21, 2011, 04:56:15 PM
Quote from: devonapple on January 21, 2011, 03:57:24 PM
I think we should assume the opposite, that the OP means Ward-related landmines - YS 276-7 specifically calls them "landmines" over and over. I'd have called them "Wardmines," just to eliminate confusion, but it is the way that it is.

The "Wardmine" - as written in the rules - goes off when breached (YS 2776 and also 277), and since the Ward is gone when breached, the spell matrix holding the Wardmine would be gone too, after it exploded. So, question 1 is option b and also c, since bypassing a ward traditionally means one has destroyed it, and the Wardmine would be one shot.

Charges would be irrelevant because the Ward holding it would be gone. If you wanted multiple separate evocation effects to happen when it was breached, you'd just add them into the Ritual as extra Complexity, but they would all go off at once when breached.

I figured as much. But either way I didn't have the books in front of me. I gave the best answer I could.
Title: Re: Wards and Landmine
Post by: Madmacabre on January 21, 2011, 05:05:26 PM
Confusion remains...See [YS p.276]


If the attack surpasses the block strength of the ward, then the ward is breached; apply whatever shifts get through to the target just like bypassing a block (page 210). Alternatively, the attacker may apply those shifts directly toward getting rid of the ward itself; each shift will reduce the value of the ward by one until it’s gone. While a ward is technically still around at Mediocre (+0) strength, most lack the energy to hold themselves together at that point; a ward needs to be reduced to –4 to be completely nullified.

Now, if I understand, if an attack bypass the block value of a ward, the attacker can do two things: 1) apply the shifts towards a target behind the ward, and 2) apply the shifts to reduce the strength of the ward. But nevertheless, the ward is breached. Howerver, it does not seem to be "dispelled" yet.

Back to my "landmine" issue. Does it only go off the first time the ward is breached? Or when it is nullified (reduce its str to -4)?

Title: Re: Wards and Landmine
Post by: devonapple on January 21, 2011, 05:12:54 PM
Quote from: Madmacabre on January 21, 2011, 05:05:26 PM
Confusion remains...See [YS p.276]...
Back to my "landmine" issue. Does it only go off the first time the ward is breached? Or when it is nullified (reduce its str to -4)?

Ah, good, I missed that bit in my review this morning - my apologies! Thank you for pointing that out.

I maintain that the Wardmine only goes off when the Ward is breached, and once the Ward has been nullified, I feel that it has been, de facto, breached!
Title: Re: Wards and Landmine
Post by: sjksprocket on January 21, 2011, 05:18:36 PM
I think that once the ward is breach it does NOT go down. In grave peril
(click to show/hide)

That would make me think that the "wardmine" would keep going off whenever the ward is breached no matter where the extra shifts are going. But when the ward is nullified the "wardmine" would go away with it.
Title: Re: Wards and Landmine
Post by: devonapple on January 21, 2011, 05:32:39 PM
Quote from: sjksprocket on January 21, 2011, 05:18:36 PM
I think that once the ward is breach it does NOT go down. In grave peril
(click to show/hide)

That would make me think that the "wardmine" would keep going off whenever the ward is breached no matter where the extra shifts are going. But when the ward is nullified the "wardmine" would go away with it.

You're right. I think I'm following now. "Breaching" the Ward is not (as I had previously believed) the same as destroying it - not technically the same as bypassing a Block or Shield. Which would mean that the Wardmine *would* go off multiple times, each time it was breached. And in that case, I would imagine that once nullified, the Wardmine would *not* go off.

Thank you - I'm in alignment now - my apologies for any confusion.

(Edit: can you tell this hasn't really come up in my game yet?)
Title: Re: Wards and Landmine
Post by: Madmacabre on January 21, 2011, 05:36:41 PM
This makes wardmines VERY powerful...

Maybe too much. I'll have to play test that one.
Title: Re: Wards and Landmine
Post by: bibliophile20 on January 21, 2011, 07:52:39 PM
Quote from: Madmacabre on January 21, 2011, 05:36:41 PM
This makes wardmines VERY powerful...

Maybe too much. I'll have to play test that one.
But accurate.  Remember the herd of buffalo Thomas commented Harry's wards could charbroil?  Remember the lurch of zombies it did fry?
Title: Re: Wards and Landmine
Post by: devonapple on January 21, 2011, 07:59:33 PM
Somebody on this forum posted a writeup of the most complicated and mortal-friendly Ward setup imaginable - I wish I could find it and link to it here.
Title: Re: Wards and Landmine
Post by: sinker on January 21, 2011, 09:58:10 PM
I would think that you could also set a ward to physically attack anything that touched it or damaged it. Seems to me that in the example of dresden's wards and the zombies that none of those attacks "Breached the ward" because then by the above rules they could have moved past said wards (if an attack can go through once the ward is breached I would assume anything else could). That would in theory have charges but really I have no rules backing me up on this, just a sense that that could be a way for it to work.
Title: Re: Wards and Landmine
Post by: devonapple on January 21, 2011, 10:06:00 PM
Quote from: sinker on January 21, 2011, 09:58:10 PM
I would think that you could also set a ward to physically attack anything that touched it or damaged it. Seems to me that in the example of dresden's wards and the zombies that none of those attacks "Breached the ward" because then by the above rules they could have moved past said wards (if an attack can go through once the ward is breached I would assume anything else could). That would in theory have charges but really I have no rules backing me up on this, just a sense that that could be a way for it to work.

There are several things going on, if I understand correctly:

1) the Wards are reflecting back any attacks which don't breach it, hurting anyone who touches or casts spells at it (
(click to show/hide)
)
2) the people attacking the Wards are instead opting to tear down the Ward with the extra shifts they are generating (
(click to show/hide)
)
3) even when you opt to tear down the Ward itself, it may still be considered a breach, which means a Wardmine in the face

Do I have it right, folks?