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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: bitterpill on January 17, 2011, 08:57:06 PM

Title: Duel Focus Items
Post by: bitterpill on January 17, 2011, 08:57:06 PM
I was thinking of giving my focused practitioner Aeromancer in one of my games two Gauntlets focus items, one of them at +4 (the limit of the characters Lore) Control Air Attack and the other at +4 Air Power Attack, what I was wandering if I could legitimatly use both focuses in the same attack, and is doing so bending the game mechanics or being unfaithful to the source material.  

Also could a rote command be in sign language or in say of gesture languages like the language of Fans. 
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 17, 2011, 09:12:17 PM
1. It's fine.

2. I'd allow it. But this one's up to the GM.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: devonapple on January 17, 2011, 09:54:24 PM
Quote from: bitterpill on January 17, 2011, 08:57:06 PM
Also could a rote command be in sign language or in say of gesture languages like the language of Fans. 

If you are trying to establish a sneaky way to make your magic less identifiable, you may want to buy a Stunt that allows you to use your Perform skill instead of your Lore as the difficulty for other spellcasters to identify and counter your magic?

The potential Dresdenverse problem with using sign language, or any language, is that you risk unintentionally shooting off your magic when all you were trying to do was communicate in that language. In an actual game, though, I doubt a GM will be that picky about it. You could also opt to take an Aspect "Fan-Wielding Spellcaster," in which case you could Invoke it for awesomeness or subtlety, and the GM could compel it for... complicated things.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: Fenrir423 on January 17, 2011, 09:56:45 PM
The rules don't really say one way or the other, as far as I can find, whether you can cast a single spell with multiple focus items. While I'd leave the decision up to the GM and not argue with either decision, I'm not entirely sure why the board seems to unanimously agree that the intention is to allow multiple focuses to be used in casting ridiculously powerful spells.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: UmbraLux on January 17, 2011, 10:11:36 PM
Quote from: Fenrir423 on January 17, 2011, 09:56:45 PM
The rules don't really say one way or the other, as far as I can find, whether you can cast a single spell with multiple focus items.
YS:250 uses "focus items" (plural) under 'How to Do it'.  That said, I don't believe bonuses of the same type stack (couldn't find the reference) so most casters are limited to two focus items for a single spell - one for power and one for control.  This is also one aspect making Sponsored magic so powerful.  A wizard could presumably stack a Hellfire focus on top of a Fire focus because they are different types.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: LokiTM on January 17, 2011, 10:14:21 PM
Using the fiction as a reference, I would not allow the use of two foci on the same spell. Harry uses the shield bracelet , or the rod, or the staff but never more than one at a time. It also seems like a balance thing.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 17, 2011, 10:16:39 PM
Your Story page 279 says that multiple foci cannot stack in increasing power and control. There is no indication whatsoever that you can't have one focus for power and one for control.

Then again, the rulebook contradicts itself (and Our World) on the preceding page. So maybe the section ran into editing trouble and needs to be extensively interpreted.

PS: The fiction is not a good reference.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: LokiTM on January 17, 2011, 10:20:37 PM
I am not claiming it to be authoritative, just giving an opinion on how I would rule were it my game.

Again on the personal bias front, this feels like power gaming which I am trying to discourage in my game. If there is one thing that is not worrying me, it is that the wizards are too under powered.  :)
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 17, 2011, 10:24:19 PM
Heh. True. Maybe this could be a sneaky way to nerf wizards.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: bitterpill on January 18, 2011, 02:47:50 AM
My GM said that he was not sure about using more than one focus item but if i could find a way to explain how someone would actually wield two focus items at once he would allow it. Which is why i thought the idea of paired focus items like gloves  might work to explain how someone would use two focus items in the same action. I am tryinging to out wizard the wizards of my party in a submerged game with a Focused Practitioner.But I suppose really interested in is whether people think trying to use two focus items is power gaming and I should drop it. The Language of Fans casting I just thought might be cool.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: arete on January 18, 2011, 03:09:59 AM
I have always intrepreted the rules to mea you cannont use more than 1 item to benifit a spell.  I find wizards do not need the help.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 18, 2011, 03:29:32 AM
1. I don't see the need for a special justification for using two foci. Your character realizes that two is better than one, just as you do.

2. Evocation will almost always be better than Channeling once you add Refinements. You might be able to out-evoke a wizard, but not an evoker.

3. The question "is this power gaming?" doesn't mean anything to me in this context. Power gaming (at least as I understand it) is defined by motivation, not action. Also, it isn't necessarily a bad thing to powergame.

4. While it is true that wizards don't need help, I still can't work out where the idea that you can only use one foci comes from. Seriously, why do you think that?

Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: arete on January 18, 2011, 03:55:45 AM
I got the idea from your story page 279.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: BumblingBear on January 18, 2011, 04:21:37 AM
The book specifically mentions that if you have one focus item that adds +2 power to offensive water evocation and a +1 power to offensive water evocation (*note:  I don't remember the specific wording - I am paraphrasing) that the item with the larger bonus would be in effect.  They would not stack to a +3.

Logically, we can conclude that the book is assuming players will have many, many foci.  As such, we can also conclude that a player could have more than one foci to be used for one spell.

There is no rule in the book stating that one spell cannot use more than one foci - just that power and control for more than one item do not stack.

Additionally, one item can have a power bonus for more than one element of evocation.  How in the world would that be beneficial unless a caster also had other focus items to supplement that?

I really don't understand why people are even arguing about this.

In the books, Harry only really has refinement foci because he has a buttload of power with very little control.  He doesn't need to worry about conviction.

Other wizards (like Elaine) on the other hand have many, many doodads and gizmos to help with spells.  Didn't Molly use two wands too?

I see no reason why a spellcaster could not use more than one item.  If a GM really wants to nerf casters that badly, they should just run a lower level campaign.

I have looked at "Our World".  The author lowballed the stats for most of the NPCs in there, and any one member of the Senior Council could nuke a small country.

It may make some people uncomfortable how much power spell casters can sling around, but that is how the DF universe works....

Sort of like how a Demon with Mythic strength and Claws will be swinging an 8 shift weapon every attack.  Without any stresses.  In conjunction with their attack.

That level of damage is sick.  A demon with that level of power could tear through a tank without too much trouble.  If characters are going to survive stuff like that, they are going to have to escalate their power accordingly.

Nerfing PCs is only appropriate if the opposition is not up to match.

When the nearest we have to a beastiary lists NPCs that don't even have stats, just a warning to "run away", I don't think that any nerfing is appropriate.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: TheRealMe on January 18, 2011, 05:01:04 AM
I was under the impression that a Lore of 4 would get you a total bonus of 4 in all foci.  That is, one +4 device, or two +2, or a combination of +3 and +1 for something else.  But not two (or six, or twelve) +4 foci.

Am I mistaken?

- Ed
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: BumblingBear on January 18, 2011, 06:51:05 AM
Quote from: TheRealMe on January 18, 2011, 05:01:04 AM
I was under the impression that a Lore of 4 would get you a total bonus of 4 in all foci.  That is, one +4 device, or two +2, or a combination of +3 and +1 for something else.  But not two (or six, or twelve) +4 foci.

Am I mistaken?

- Ed

That is incorrect.  The rules you are referring to are for each individual item.  Basically it states that one character cannot have one item that does it all.  They have to choose what specific things the focus item will do.  For example, one focus item cannot enhance both conviction and discipline for one element of evocation.  One focus item cannot affect both evocation and thaumaturgy etc. etc.

There is no limit to the number of items a character can have other than their focus item slots.  The limit to individual enchanted items' power is that they cannot exceed over twice the caster's lore.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: MyNinjaH8sU on January 18, 2011, 02:42:14 PM
Quote from: LokiTM on January 17, 2011, 10:14:21 PM
Using the fiction as a reference, I would not allow the use of two foci on the same spell. Harry uses the shield bracelet , or the rod, or the staff but never more than one at a time. It also seems like a balance thing.

The only problem I have there is that those are all listed as foci for different kinds of magic. The staff works with Air, the Rod with Fire, and the Bracelet with Spirit (and furthermore is keyed to only one spell for added effect, it would seem).

I don't think the book speaks about stacking foci at all, considering the rules.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: sjksprocket on January 18, 2011, 04:27:31 PM
I don't see the problem in this.

In Changes
(click to show/hide)

You aren't stacking bonuses, your getting two different ones. I Don't see this as overpowering because you are limiting yourself. You get a large total on one type of magic, but your using up two slots for one thing. This limits versatility, which can be big. It's a lot easier to get around someone who is very one tracked. So to me it balances.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: LokiTM on January 18, 2011, 05:05:45 PM
If this gets used in-game, please post on how it impacted play and balance.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: BumblingBear on January 18, 2011, 06:33:01 PM
Quote from: sjksprocket on January 18, 2011, 04:27:31 PM
I don't see the problem in this.

In Changes
(click to show/hide)

You aren't stacking bonuses, your getting two different ones. I Don't see this as overpowering because you are limiting yourself. You get a large total on one type of magic, but your using up two slots for one thing. This limits versatility, which can be big. It's a lot easier to get around someone who is very one tracked. So to me it balances.

You said it better than I did.  Boo. :)
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: sinker on January 18, 2011, 08:47:14 PM
Ok, I'm going to go straight to the RAW for this. YS278

Quote
The one restriction on the bonuses provided
is that they may not total to a number greater
than your Lore. So if your Lore is Good (+3),
you can have an evocation focus item that
provides +3 to offensive control, offensive power,
defensive power, or defensive control, or a focus
item that provides +1 to three of those, or +2 to
one and +1 to another, but you can’t construct
one that provides bonuses totaling 4 or more.

So the lore limit applies to the total bonus that a single focus item can have. In addition you can have both control and power bonuses in a single item, however that lore limit still applies to the single item. So the advantage to using two items would be that you could have two higher bonuses (a +4 and a +4) in two different items rather than two lower bonuses (a +2 and a +2) in a single item. I can't find the specific rules that say that you can have both control and power in a single item, they're probably on that same page, however there is an example which demonstrates it.

Quote
So an item
that offered +1 offensive power and +1 offensive
control to fire and earth evocations would
take up 4 slots.

So I would assume that it's possible to have bonuses to power and control in one item.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: arete on January 18, 2011, 11:04:51 PM
This thread has changed my opinion on multi-focus items.

The spoiler info above is a good fiction reference.  I also see that the raw supports multi-focus items as long as they provide different bonuses.

   
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: BumblingBear on January 18, 2011, 11:09:03 PM
Quote from: arete on January 18, 2011, 11:04:51 PM
This thread has changed my opinion on multi-focus items.

The spoiler info above is a good fiction reference.  I also see that the raw supports multi-focus items as long as they provide different bonuses.

   

Indeed.

There are several balancing factors.  One is that focus items can be lost, stolen, or broken.

Another is that lore is still the capping factor.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: arete on January 18, 2011, 11:24:48 PM
My player party is lore heavy, but I do appreciate these threads.  My group universally thought using 2 focus items like listed here was wrong. 

I do think wizards can be crazy in damage department, but they are balanced out by being squishy.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: Captain Indigo on January 19, 2011, 03:07:46 PM
Quote from: arete on January 18, 2011, 11:24:48 PM
I do think wizards can be crazy in damage department, but they are balanced out by being squishy.

And don't have much staying power. Wizards can drop crazy powerful spells/attacks, but can't keep it up for very long w/out getting into Consequences.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: BumblingBear on January 19, 2011, 07:59:25 PM
Quote from: Captain Indigo on January 19, 2011, 03:07:46 PM
And don't have much staying power. Wizards can drop crazy powerful spells/attacks, but can't keep it up for very long w/out getting into Consequences.

Yup.

And this is why I'm all for wizard damage, but I'm totally against any skills or abilities that increase mental toughness or add mental armor. That would be OP.

With one point of mental armor, a wizard could theoretically sling spells all day... and that is ridonkulous.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: devonapple on January 19, 2011, 08:55:10 PM
Quote from: BumblingBear on January 19, 2011, 07:59:25 PM
With one point of mental armor, a wizard could theoretically sling spells all day... and that is ridonkulous.

I think mental armor could have a place in the game, but it would have to be built so that spellcasting would bypass it. Most of the builds people have put to the boards did just that, and the one time I recall someone trying to get around it, there was some feedback.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: sinker on January 19, 2011, 09:20:30 PM
I would think that if anyone was inflicting stress on themselves for any reason regardless of whether it was physical or mental would be bypassing any armor that they had.
Title: Re: Duel Focus Items
Post by: arete on January 19, 2011, 09:48:29 PM
In my game I said that 2 stunts exist for all the stress tracks.  1st on adds a minor consequence and the 2nd adds a stress box.  That is all I am allowing for mental expansion in my games, and so far none of my players have taken advantage of it.