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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: devonapple on January 13, 2011, 03:10:06 AM

Title: Conjuration and Construct Creation
Post by: devonapple on January 13, 2011, 03:10:06 AM

Edit: Here  (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B5aCjfAHYXoQOGI4YTk0ZjUtMDBmOC00ODE1LWIxNGEtMzE5MmMwY2VkNmQ0&sort=name&layout=list&num=50)is a link to the GoogleDocs PDF of the system I compiled.

I came up with this table using the size/weight charts from "Strands of FATE" as well as "Mutants & Masterminds," 2nd edition. I also used the "Mutants & Masterminds" progression table for a guideline on how to escalate the scale of duplicating objects. I extrapolated Ritual Complexity using the Conjuration suggestions on YS 274, and provided two methods for pricing the ritual:

Method 1: a more aggressive, higher-cost option for GMs who want to make the players work for these effects.
Method 2: a less granular, more lenient cost which is in closer alignment to the somewhat loose guidelines provided on YS 274.

Category	Example	Height	Weight	Method 1  Cost	Method 2  Cost
Colossal	Airplane, Large House, Battleship	64-128 ft.	250K- 2 mil. lbs	19	7
Gargantuan	Dragon, Tank, Small House	32-64 ft.	32K –250K lbs.	17	5
Huge	Elephant, Car, Small Shack	16-32 ft.	4K –32K lbs.	15	3
Large	Bear, Large Motorcycle, Table	8-16 ft.	500-4,000 lbs.	13	3
Medium (human)	Adult Human, Door, Barrel	4-8 ft.	60-500 lbs.	11	3
Small	Human Child, Chair, Small Dog	2 ft.-4 ft.	8-60 lbs.	9	3
Tiny	Handgun, Toaster, Cat	1-2 ft.	1-8 lbs.	7	1
Diminutive	Baseball	6 in.-1 ft.	0.25-1 lb.	5	1
Fine	Mice, Knife	3 in.-6 in.	0.9-0.1 lb.	3	1
Miniscule	Grasshoppers, Coins	3 in. or less	1 oz. or less	1	1
Wee	Small Gemstones, Seeds, Pebbles	--	--	3	3
Granular	Ants, Fleas, Grains of Sand	--	--	7	3
Particulate	Particles of Dust or Powder	--	--	11	5
Microscopic	Bacteria, Nanites, Viruses	--	--	15	7

For creating multiple copies of a thing:

Duplicates,     Method 1	Method 1       Cost		Duplicates,     Method 2	Method 2       Cost
2	2		2 to 9	2
5	4		10 to 49	4
10	6		50 to 249	6
25	8		250 to 999	8
50	10		1,000 to 4,999	10
100	12		5,000 to 24,999	12
250	14		25,000 to 99,999	14
500	16		100,000 to 249,999	16
1,000	18
2,500	20
5,000	22
10,000	24
25,000	26
50,000	28
100,000	30

Modifiers:
These modifiers are consistent with the guidelines on YS 274:

Simple object; 1-2 moving parts at most: +0
Believability: +X shifts to increase roll needed to notice the conjured object is fake
Animated: +2
Complex: +2 (may be taken multiple times - perhaps each level indicates another feature or Aspect)

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 13, 2011, 03:25:08 AM

I like this, but there are a few things I'd change.

1. I think the size scale goes too high. Two human sacrifices shouldn't be enough to create a planet.
2. I think an intermediate category between Bacteria and Insects would be appropriate. +1 to +13 is pretty jarring.
3. There is no way that a bacterium, nanite, or virus weighs half a gram.
4. An extra step between one and a dozen on the quantity scale would be appropriate, I think.

PS: You've inspired me to create a similar table for wards.

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: devonapple on January 13, 2011, 04:33:42 AM

Excellent points all. This was a rough rough ROUGH first draft.

The DFRPG actually recommends a +2 per size increase, but there doesn't seem to be a Size index similar to the Time index. I opted to use factors of 5-10 for the larger sizes.

"1. I think the size scale goes too high. Two human sacrifices shouldn't be enough to create a planet."

Fine by me - I included it for completeness, but I'm happy cutting off players at the Battleship category.

"2. I think an intermediate category between Bacteria and Insects would be appropriate. +1 to +13 is pretty jarring."

True. I think it should get more complex as it gets microscopic, but maybe a step or two in between would be helpful.

"3. There is no way that a bacterium, nanite, or virus weighs half a gram."

Artifact of the original document - has been amended.

"4. An extra step between one and a dozen on the quantity scale would be appropriate, I think"

Done!

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: HobbitGuy1420 on January 13, 2011, 04:47:17 AM

Maybe go up by numbers with a "mystical" significance?  1, 3, 7, 12, 40...

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: devonapple on January 13, 2011, 04:58:48 AM

I'm wondering if I should pull in a size/mass chart from "Mutants & Masterminds" or something like that.

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: bibliophile20 on January 13, 2011, 06:02:21 AM

Quote from: devonapple on January 13, 2011, 04:58:48 AM

I'm wondering if I should pull in a size/mass chart from "Mutants & Masterminds" or something like that.

Not a bad idea.  It's a good chart.

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: devonapple on January 13, 2011, 07:21:07 AM

Quote from: bibliophile20 on January 13, 2011, 06:02:21 AM

Not a bad idea.  It's a good chart.

I have done so (see above).

Are there any proponents for preserving the book's example of making a conjured inoperable car a Complexity 7 ritual? How would you scale the Complexity to accommodate that? DFRPG's examples seem to vaguely indicate that the range for complexity 5 is from Tiny to Huge. "Coin" is considered 1, inanimate "Frog" is listed as 3 (5 for an animated frog), and inanimate car is 7 (5 for its complexity, and +2 for its size).

Maybe the assumption is that human-size is +0 and that average complexity is 5, with negative modifiers for smaller things?
Obviously fake human = 5
Decent fake human = 7
Animated fake human = 9
Expertly crafted animated human (required Superb skill to recognize the fake) = 19

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: bibliophile20 on January 13, 2011, 04:48:13 PM

what would the difficulty of coinage?  particularly in quantity. 

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: devonapple on January 13, 2011, 05:00:49 PM

Quote from: bibliophile20 on January 13, 2011, 04:48:13 PM

what would the difficulty of coinage?  particularly in quantity.  

Well, a basic coin would be 1, plus 4-5 shifts to make it believable, then you'd look at the progression table - let's use 100 coins: +12.

So:
Basic shape: +1
Requires Superb roll to detect as counterfeit: +5
100 coins: +12
Duration: until next sunrise +0

Total complexity; 18.

I feel that using the M&M Progression chart may be a little steep.

Also, I'm wondering if the RAW are trying to say that a coin and a frog are within the same size category for conjuration, and that the frog is 1 shift for size, and 2 shifts for complexity, and possibly another 2 shifts for animation.

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: devonapple on January 13, 2011, 05:27:58 PM

Quote from: HobbitGuy1420 on January 13, 2011, 04:47:17 AM

Maybe go up by numbers with a "mystical" significance?  1, 3, 7, 12, 40...

A brilliant idea, but a quick Google Search reveals a potential snag in that plan: WHICH mystical tradition? There are many, and some of them have most of the numbers up to 40 tangled up in mystical significance.

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: bibliophile20 on January 13, 2011, 05:40:09 PM

Quote from: devonapple on January 13, 2011, 05:27:58 PM

A brilliant idea, but a quick Google Search reveals a potential snag in that plan: WHICH mystical tradition? There are many, and some of them have most of the numbers up to 40 tangled up in mystical significance.

Stay away from gematria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria), then.  *thoughtful*  Although, it does have some recommendations to it, given that it's a fully detailed system for Thaumaturgy via math and linguistic manipulation...  :-\

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 14, 2011, 04:23:46 AM

Mind if I post the wardmaking guide here?

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: devonapple on January 14, 2011, 07:38:31 AM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 14, 2011, 04:23:46 AM

Mind if I post the wardmaking guide here?

Sure - go for it!

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: ironpoet on January 14, 2011, 09:47:27 PM

First of all, I love the tables, since I've tried to work out good conjuration guidelines in the past without much progress.

I'm a little uncomfortable with the way size and duplication interact.  According to Method 1, conjuring two battleships is practically the same difficulty as conjuring one battleship.  According to Method 2, I could conjure 2 battleships or 5 small houses with the same complexity.

My gut instincts would suggest that "total mass" (ectoplasm) would be the limiting factor, regardless of how many items make up that total mass.  So maybe we don't need two separate tables?

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: devonapple on January 14, 2011, 09:53:55 PM

Quote from: ironpoet on January 14, 2011, 09:47:27 PM

I'm a little uncomfortable with the way size and duplication interact.  According to Method 1, conjuring two battleships is practically the same difficulty as conjuring one battleship.  According to Method 2, I could conjure 2 battleships or 5 small houses with the same complexity.

My gut instincts would suggest that "total mass" (ectoplasm) would be the limiting factor, regardless of how many items make up that total mass.  So maybe we don't need two separate tables?

That is certainly an option!

The rules, however, indicate that duplication adds +2 Complexity, or more depending on how many duplicates you are making. It's pretty vague, unfortunately, and the example (covering a city park in fake, hopping frogs) is touted as at least a Complexity 11 effect: 5 for the frogs, and 3 or more levels of duplication at +2 Complexity each. It alludes to orders of magnitude being important, but gives no clear guides. Nothing in the rules supports working from the combined mass.

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 15, 2011, 01:27:58 AM

Wards

The base complexity of a ward is equal to the ward's strength plus the number of steps on the time chart that the ward's duration exceeds one day by. The possible modifiers are listed below, with their complexity costs in brackets.

Landmine Spell (+X, where X is the complexity of the spell that will be activated when the ward is broken)
Warning System (+2)
Warning System w/Portable Alarm device (+4)
Conditional Activation (+2 per simple condition, extra symbolic links may be required)
Increased Size (+2 per additional zone covered)
Protection From Worldwalking Intrusion (+2 (This is not canon))
Insufficient Threshold (GM's choice)

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: devonapple on January 18, 2011, 12:38:25 AM

Wonderful! This is very helpful.

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: devonapple on January 20, 2011, 05:40:34 PM

I just had a terrible realization:

I'm wondering if the Conjuration guidelines on YS 274 only deal with the 3 size categories available to characters?

Diminutive (Pixies - and presumably frogs and coins)
Normal (Human, Car, Troll)
Hulking (Giant Gruffs, whales, etc.)

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 20, 2011, 10:18:58 PM

Naw, that would be kinda silly. I think you had it right the first time.

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: devonapple on January 25, 2011, 09:34:45 AM

The version of the Conjuration Guidelines I will be using for my game:

Category	Cost	Example	Height	Weight	Duplicates	Cost
Colossal	11	Airplane, Large House, Battleship	64-128 ft.	250K- 2M lbs	2	+2
Gargantuan	9	Dragon, Tank, Small House	32-64 ft.	32K –250K lbs.	3-5	+4
Huge	7	Elephant, Car, Small Shack	16-32 ft.	4K –32K lbs.	6-10	+6
Large	5	Bear, Large Motorcycle, Table	8-16 ft.	500-4,000 lbs.	7-25	+8
Medium	5	Adult Human, Door, Barrel	4-8 ft.	60-500 lbs.	26-50	+10
Small	5	Human Child, Chair, Small Dog	2 ft.-4 ft.	8-60 lbs.	51-100	+12
Tiny	3	Handgun, Toaster, Cat	1-2 ft.	1-8 lbs.	101-250	+14
Diminutive	3	Baseball	6 in.-1 ft.	0.25-1 lb.	251-500	+16
Fine	1	Mice, Knife	3 in.-6 in.	0.9-0.1 lb.	501-1,000	+18
Miniscule	1	Grasshoppers, Coins	3 in. or less	1 oz. or less	1,001-2,500	+20
Wee	3	Small Gemstones, Seeds, Pebbles	--	--	2,501-5,000	+22
Granular	5	Ants, Fleas, Grains of Sand	--	--	5,001-10,000	+24
Particulate	9	Particles of Dust or Powder	--	--	10,001-25,000	+26
Microscopic	11	Bacteria, Nanites, Viruses	--	--	25,001-50,000	+28

Modifiers	Cost	Details
Simple	+0	1-2 moving parts at most
Complex	+2	May be taken multiple times - each level adds another feature or Aspect
Believability	+X	Each shift increases the roll needed to notice the conjured object is fake
Animated	+2	Basic Animus (see Simple Automaton); for a more complicated Animus see the Creating section under the Construct Guidelines
Duration	+X	Standard duration is a day or until the next sunrise

Title: Re: Conjuration Table
Post by: devonapple on January 25, 2011, 09:44:15 AM

With help from Umbralux and Sanctaphrax, the Construct/Spirit Summoning Guidelines I plan to use:

Construct Guidelines

1. Matrix
2. Create Animus
3. Bind Animus

Matrix
Creating a Matrix to hold the Animus while it is crafted is like building a Ward or Spell Construct:

• Select the Behavior Index which suits the competence level of the target Animus.
• You can make a cheaper Matrix for an Uncontrolled or Disloyal Animus:

Behavior Index	Cost	Details
Animal	0	Can be directed, but unsuited for certain tasks; untrained and instinctual.
Simple Automaton	2	Does one thing only, without free will, initiative, or surprises. Note: this is like adding Animation to a Conjuration.
Standard Automaton	4	Obeys commands, no free will or initiative, but no surprises either.
Security Automaton	6	Can be directed, some free will, but requires attention to keep in line.
Sapient Automaton	8	Free willed, relatively independent; can be given complex tasks or command others.
Eidolon	10	Obeys instinctively, can be commanded like a second player character.
Master Eidolon	12	Perfect obedience, absolute loyalty, entirely independent, will act to help the summoner on its own initiative.
Modifiers
Uncontrolled	-4	Does what it pleases, which probably isn't what you want it to do.
Disloyal	-2	Can be directed, but won't obey properly. Either looks for loopholes or simply lacks any intelligence at all. Requires micromanaging.

Create Animus
Creating the Construct’s Animus is the most expensive part of the process:

• +2 Shifts for every 5 Skill Points
• +2 Shifts for each Refresh worth of Power (most physical powers should be a function of the Special Container – see below)
• +1 Shift for each Stunt
• +1 Shift for each box of the Animus’ Stress Track
  (do not count the extra boxes or armor from any Toughness Powers the Construct will have)
• +X Shifts for each Consequence the Animus will take before being taken out
  (2 for Minor, +4 for Moderate, +6 for Severe, +8 for Extreme)
• -2 Shifts for each Defect the Construct (unknown flaws: potentially problematic traits, incompetencies or hidden agendas)

Bind Animus

• Conviction contest with the created Animus (aim for Conviction +5 to +10)
• Binds the Animus to an Ectoplasmic Shell by default (see Special Container below)
• Add or subtract shifts for Duration (standard duration is a day)

Special Container
Preparation of a special Container or "Construct Shell" is done in the Matrix phase, and requires someone to use Craftsmanship to build the receptacle in which the Animus will be placed. Building the shell can be performed like a Thaumaturgical Ritual, with the creator making Declarations to assemble occult materials to use in its construction. The creator can be the Thaumaturgist or a contracted craftsman.

• +2 shifts of Complexity for each Refresh of Power it will contain
• Common Construct Shell abilities include Size, Toughness, Strength, and Claws
• Once the Construct Shell is crafted, it must be prepared with a separate Ritual of the same Complexity as the Construct Shell, as the Thaumaturgist activates the occult materials and lays in a Matrix to hold an Animus or Spirit.

This Shell can thereafter serve as a receptacle for a new Animus or Spirit if the previous one is banished or destroyed, as long as the Shell is intact or repaired with an appropriate Craftsmanship check.

Illusions
Illusions can generally be handled as a Thaumaturgic Maneuver to place one or more Sticky Aspects on a Scene to be tagged for bonuses to Deceit checks. The more an illusion will be tested, the more Aspects should be incorporated. These would be 4 shifts per Sticky Aspect, and then Duration to extend the length of the "Scene" they will be creating, starting with a one-scene duration and increasing the Complexity from there.

However, if a Thaumaturgist needs an Illusion to have more of a presence in a Scene, follow the Conjuration Guidelines, but reduce the cost by 4 shifts.

If you need an Illusion to be more interactive, like an NPC, then use the Construct Creation Guidelines, with the following changes:

• Do not create a Matrix
• Do not add Shifts for the Construct's Stress Track or Consequences unless you want it to be able to participate in Social Conflicts

Title: Re: Conjuration and Construct Creation
Post by: Wyrdrune on January 26, 2011, 10:05:08 AM

don't get me wrong, that conjuring table is an awesome piece of work, and i may be using it in my game if the need arises, but what are you planning to conjure?

which brings me to the question - which is more of a philosophic venue - how does it work? (or how does it work in your game?)

when a wizard conjures a gun... what does he get?

does he get an actual gun with moving parts, because he knows how it works, and wills the magic into this form?
does he get an actual gun with moving parts, because the magic is intelligent enough on itself?
does he get a gun shaped lump of magic, that spits out bullet shaped lumps of magic, simulating a gun? (the magic assumes this form because the wizard knows what a gun looks like and how a gun should behave without having a grasp of the inner workings.)
does he get a gun shaped lump of metal that does not work at all?

Title: Re: Conjuration and Construct Creation
Post by: Kommisar on January 26, 2011, 03:33:30 PM

My view of this question is that repeatedly in the rules and the novels it is stated that, yes, a wizard can do all sorts of things that, when you get right down to it, are not very good uses of the wizards time and energy.  Take the gun.

A wizard wants to shoot a bad guy. 

Option 1 - Conjure a Gun.  Okay, he has to sit down and run through the thaum ritual to create the gun.  This will take a few minutes at best.  If he actually wants it to shoot a ectoplasm formed physical bullet, he will have to have some knowledge (in my opinion) as to how a firearm operates beyond "Bang!... bullet comes out."  Add to that, making his conjured gun work adds to complexity and needs more shifts.  After all of that, he gets a weapon 2 or 3 effect for most firearms and uses firearms to roll to hit.  If he is just going to "shoot" out a magical blast of some sort without the working mechanisms of the gun, well, that is just evocation wrapped up in the appearance of the conjured firearm.  I could see a possible use for such a set up; but they would be two separate spells.

Option 2 - He uses evocation.  Goes down in one exchange and drops a weapon 3+ effect.  Uses discipline to hit.

Option 3 - Pulls out a normal fire arm and fires.

The same sort of scenario plays out with a lot of complex items a wizard might wish to conjure up.  Your bang for buck is not there.  Especially if you tack on (as I do) that the wizard has to have at least some technical understanding of whatever he is creating if he wants it to actually work as that object would work and not through magical fiat alone.

Another good example is a computer.  A wizard can not go near these things!  Therefore, chances are a wizard would not have much real understanding of circuit boards and processors.  So, creating a operational processor chip out of ectoplasm is going to be tough for the wizard.  NOW, he could create an ecto object that looks like a computer without much difficulty and then bind a Bob-esque spirit to it such that it operates similar to a computer!  But, then it is not really a computer.  It's a magical item that just looks like a computer.

The other factor is hexing.  If you actually create a piece of working technology out of ectoplasm that works as the real piece of tech would is it affected the same way by hex-effects?  I would lean towards yes.

This is why wizards make magic items and not technological replicas.  They would make a magically animated golem and not a Gundum.  The difference being how they operate; magically driven as opposed to tech-driven.

Which is why I have not invested a lot of energy in creating complex rules for creating complex items for my wizard heavy group of players.  The player in my group with a conjuration heavy wizard is, in real life, an engineer and he already figured out how silly such attempts would be.  He just had his contact in the Venatori procure him a double barreled 12 gauge sawed-off.

Title: Re: Conjuration and Construct Creation
Post by: devonapple on January 26, 2011, 03:57:29 PM

Quote from: Wyrdrune on January 26, 2011, 10:05:08 AM

does he get a gun shaped lump of metal that does not work at all?

Generally, one gets a gun-shaped lump of metal which is actually made of ectoplasm and can be dispelled with a Counterspell. Maybe you can Construct a revolver that can "open" so you can pretend to load it with bullets). A wizard could even try to pretend to use a fake gun to hide the fact that he is using magic,  but for that he could easily carry around an actual plastic gun and not worry about a thaumaturgic ritual.

Per YS 274, "Functioning objects of real technology are pretty much impossible (or more accurately, too much work to be worth it)." The best someone can get with Conjuring is 1-2 moving parts, or maybe something which animates as if alive. We're talking scissors, pliers, a cigarette case, a box, maybe a simple folding knife with no blade lock. A moving creature sidesteps the "moving parts" limit, but still costs extra shifts.

So in the absolute fullness of the rules, a modern gun (which can have around 34 moving parts) could theoretically be made, but it would have an insanely high Complexity and require a lot of knowledge about how the tech works, and to make up that Lore Declaration, your Wizard is assumed to be doing magical shopping or engaging in any other number of skill checks which themslves could have resulted in a real working gun and bullets. Much easier to do any other number of things to get a gun when you need it. See Kommisar's response above. Also, see "Can I Conjure a Sword" on YS 275.

Now, what some folks have been monkeying with is trying to Summon an actual real item to their location using magic. But then you get into Teleportation rules, and it gets crazy.

But ultimately, what Wizards are conjuring are Things that need to take up space, be physical, and look real. Like a bridge over a chasm (but running water would be tricky). A barricade. A wall where there wasn't a wall before. A fake house. A fake dragon. A field full of frogs. An Ectoplasmic Shell for a Spirit. Fake money (although the time:investment ratio is skewed seriously the wrong way, so it's probably best to simulate a particular, important coin, like a Denarius, rather than Loads of Money. Anytime something needs to be there but couldn't otherwise be there because it would be Impossible.

A lot of these things could also be done with Illusions, but would have no substance. Conjuring is for substance.