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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: ralexs1991 on January 05, 2011, 03:30:29 PM

Title: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: ralexs1991 on January 05, 2011, 03:30:29 PM

Ok so my question is if say a husband built a home for his wife and they were in true Love would that house satisfy a WCV's catch or would it just translate into a higher threshold value or maybe both.

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: Doc Chaos on January 05, 2011, 03:35:15 PM

Threshold. He doesn't love the house, he loves the woman :)

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: Amelia Crane on January 05, 2011, 06:45:39 PM

If it makes a more interesting story, sure it can.  Symbols of love can certainly satisfy a WCV's catch.

Two notes depending on whether the WCV in question is the player or the enemy.  First, it's not all that necessary to satisfy the catch against WCV enemies.  The only toughness they have is inhuman recovery, so its only an extra minor consequence.  Just shoot them again.  It's easier than finding a house of love and throwing it at the vampire or something.

Second, in my opinion, the player getting +0 for his catch means he can reasonably expect it never to be used against him in play.  If he has an aspect that asks for it (like Thomas's aspect of love for Justine), that's acceptable, but then, he's getting fate points for bringing that on himself.  If you're just gonna go tossing random true love objects and people at him, then you ought to give him a rebate on his catch.

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: sinker on January 05, 2011, 07:39:26 PM

Things that were given to Harry/Thomas by those who loved them did hurt Thomas, so it's reasonable to think that a house built and given to someone as a symbol of his love for her would hurt a WCV. Amelia's point is still a good one though.

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: HobbitGuy1420 on January 05, 2011, 07:50:43 PM

I disagree about *never* being used against them.  If that were the case,. the PCs would never get to use an enemy's +0 Catch against them, either.  I'd say that the Catch should only *exceptionally rarely* come up against the PC - say, only once or twice, and only in major climactic battles.

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: Hoyled on January 05, 2011, 08:21:57 PM

Id say yes, as long as the house was built by a man truly in love with the person he built it for then it hits the catch, how exactly is up to the GM. Being in the house is easy enough, a player running into the house ripping up a floor board running back to the fight and smacking the WCV is questionable.

Also Ive always thought of the catch refresh like this
+0- This catch should only come into play during major events in the plot that are personally relevant to the character with the power
+1- Rare enough that only a major npc is going to use the catch
+2- Bosses, subbosses, high end goons.
+3- For Fae level catch rebates expect even random thugs to occasionally hit the catch on accident

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: jadecourtflunky on January 05, 2011, 09:01:06 PM

A house most often would not... but perhaps, tokens of pure love, like the wedding ring.

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: Peteman on January 05, 2011, 11:20:11 PM

Quote from: ralexs1991 on January 05, 2011, 03:30:29 PM

Ok so my question is if say a husband built a home for his wife and they were in true Love would that house satisfy a WCV's catch or would it just translate into a higher threshold value or maybe both.

Depends: did he build the house out of love for his wife or did they simply need a place to stay? If the former, I would say yes (though remember, he would have to touch the building with bare skin to harm him). If the latter, no.

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: deathwombat on January 06, 2011, 03:40:06 AM

No

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: bibliophile20 on January 06, 2011, 03:57:44 AM

First, I agree with the consensus: a house is not going to fulfill a True Love trapping catch; the items that would be able to become trappings of True Love are single purpose items with clear symbolism behind them--a ring, a rose, etc.  As someone pointed out in one of the Weaponized Catch threads, as soon as you redefine the item, it loses some of the meaning behind its power; it's no longer a ring exchanged between lovers, now it's also a ring that was used to harm someone.  The house is like that, on a larger scale; as soon as it starts accumulating a threshold, that threshold is going to be redefining a "House built for love" into "a home", which, while detrimental to other supernaturals, doesn't have the same definition.

There, that's out of the way.  Now, I gotta ask: was I the only one who thought, "Okay, can being Sorted into Slytherin or Gryffindor help fulfill a Catch?"  *musing*  "I don't see why not; the Sword of Gryffindor clearly had a similar requirement..."   ;D

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 06, 2011, 04:08:04 AM

I have to admit that I think the idea is pretty silly and rather unfair to a player who thought that his +0 Catch wouldn't come up. I'd allow it anyway, because the idea of vampire houseguests trying not to touch the walls and floor is funny.

Sometimes, Rule Of Funny trumps everything else.

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: deathwombat on January 06, 2011, 04:09:45 AM

Word Sant

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: bibliophile20 on January 06, 2011, 04:29:11 AM

I hate to say it, but, unless they were ready to feed, the vamps would have little problem; it's when the Hunger is brought to the fore that Love hurts them, according to Thomas.  Remember that he touched his brother when he was protected on numerous occasions, for everything from helping him to his feet to providing medical treatment.  Now, the vamps wouldn't be comfortable in such a house, but, unless they're like Madeline and have impulse control issues, they probably wouldn't have any issues--unless and until they try to use some powers. 

Now, here's another question: can certain Houses of Worship manage to become trappings of True Faith to the point of fulfilling House Skavis' Catch? 

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 06, 2011, 05:00:49 AM

Got to admit, that bit about the relationship between Hunger and vulnerability is news to me. I might be inclined to ignore it when it becomes inconvenient (like when it ruins a dramatic, suspensful, or funny scene).

I don't think that True Faith is the Catch of House Skavis. Isn't it True Hope?

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: bibliophile20 on January 06, 2011, 05:12:26 AM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on January 06, 2011, 05:00:49 AM

Got to admit, that bit about the relationship between Hunger and vulnerability is news to me. I might be inclined to ignore it when it becomes inconvenient (like when it ruins a dramatic, suspensful, or funny scene).

I don't think that True Faith is the Catch of House Skavis. Isn't it True Hope?

It's mentioned explicitly in the books

(click to show/hide)

, in Turn Coat, in the scene after the incident at Club Zero

; I can't get you chapter and verse right now (one of my players has my copy), but I distinctly remember it as an explanation on why Thomas was never burned by touching his brother. 

And my bad on the True Faith; none of the WCV Houses have True Faith as a vulnerability. 

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: Amelia Crane on January 06, 2011, 07:08:18 AM

Quote from: HobbitGuy1420 on January 05, 2011, 07:50:43 PM

I disagree about *never* being used against them.  If that were the case,. the PCs would never get to use an enemy's +0 Catch against them, either.  I'd say that the Catch should only *exceptionally rarely* come up against the PC - say, only once or twice, and only in major climactic battles.

I stand by my never.  The thing is, I do not allow the same expectation to be extended to NPCs.  But then again, the catch value of NPCs is pretty much irrelevant.  If it gets used enough to make it worth +3 because every PC in the group has true love, it doesn't really matter.  They still have whatever powers they were going to have.

I should mention that the catch valuation guidelines under toughness are screwy and unbalanced (and do not adequately correspond to a value of +0 for True Love).

Quote from: bibliophile20 on January 06, 2011, 05:12:26 AM

It's mentioned explicitly in the books

(click to show/hide)

, in Turn Coat, in the scene after the incident at Club Zero

; I can't get you chapter and verse right now (one of my players has my copy), but I distinctly remember it as an explanation on why Thomas was never burned by touching his brother.

Here is your quote.  It's from Chapter 10.

Quote from: TurnCoat

(click to show/hide)

“The White Court only get burned when they try to feed on someone touched by true love, right?”

“It isn’t as simple as that,” Thomas said quietly. “It’s got to do with how much control the hunger has over you when you touch.”

I grunted. “But when they feed, the hunger’s in control.”

Thomas nodded slowly.

“So why’d Madeline try to feed on Justine? She had to know it would hurt her.”

“Same reason I do,” Thomas said. “She can’t help it. It’s reflex.”

I frowned. “I don’t get it.”

He was quiet long enough to make me think he wasn’t going to say anything, before he finally spoke. “Justine and I were together for years. And she… means a lot to me. When I’m near her, I can’t think about anything else but her. And when I touch her, everything in me wants to be nearer to her.”

“Including your hunger,” I said quietly.

He nodded. “We agree on that point, my demon and I. So I can’t touch Justine without it being… close to the surface, I suppose you could call it.”

“And it gets burned,” I said.

He nodded. “Madeline is the other end of the spectrum. She thinks she should get to feed on anyone she wants, anywhere, anytime. She doesn’t see other people. She just sees food. Her hunger controls her completely.” He smiled a bitter little smile. “So for her it’s reflex, just like for me.”

But then again, in Chapter 9, it says this, which clearly indicates WCVs are hurt by objects symbolizing love.  Which is easy to rationalize if feeding is the default state of a WCV, thus escaping thier catch is not a "little problem".

Quote from: TurnCoat

(click to show/hide)

Thomas had told me about White Court vampires who had been badly burned by the touch of some wedding rings, or the brush of a sweetheart’s rose. But most dangerous of all to them was the touch of someone who was loved and who loved in return.

I’d seen Thomas give himself a second-degree burn on his lips and mouth the last time he’d kissed Justine.

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: mostlyawake on January 07, 2011, 01:51:55 AM

Dude, if a player goes through the trouble of singlehandedly building a house for his wife... placing every brick, driving every nail, laying every plank of the wood floor, all while always thinking about his wife and planning everything just the way she would like it....  yeah, that's got to count, and it's going to have a hell of a threshold, vamps or no vamps.  Probably even greater if they did it all together.

But hiring a company to build a house for your true love?  Different story.


Now, if I'm a player of a wcv and this perfect house happens to show up, you know as an NPC house where significant portions of a PCs time have been spent doing this....  well, thats a molotov cocktail waiting to happen. 

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: Blackblade on January 07, 2011, 06:30:05 AM

I disagree.  I've posted this before, but I feel that the only things that should meet the catch (besides people) are items that both the symbolic of love (Rose, Wedding Ring) and have been infused by it. 

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: HobbitGuy1420 on January 07, 2011, 06:41:16 AM

Then why can Thomas not touch the scarf Justine made him?

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: sinker on January 07, 2011, 07:48:40 AM

Quote from: HobbitGuy1420 on January 07, 2011, 06:41:16 AM

Then why can Thomas not touch the scarf Justine made him?

I was about to make the same point. It's not a traditional symbol of love (like wedding rings or roses) but it was lovingly made by Justine as a gift for her true love and it burns WCVs.

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: sjksprocket on January 07, 2011, 03:38:24 PM

I'm sorry but I have to say it:

Houses should also satisfy the catch of wicked witches of the west.

Title: Re: Can a House satisfy a catch
Post by: deathwombat on January 07, 2011, 08:50:13 PM

I totally agree with sjksprocket but should be falling houses.