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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Quazar on December 20, 2010, 09:31:54 AM

Title: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Quazar on December 20, 2010, 09:31:54 AM
For species with natural armor of some kind, like the rhino's Supernatural Toughness or the bear's Inhuman Toughness, would a beast shifter need to take a Catch?

Something like... chemical weapons?  Or a particular disease?
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Belial666 on December 20, 2010, 10:01:19 AM
Yes, you would. Catches for animals might include specific weaponry (i.e. high-caliber guns or explosives), poisons or diseases, fire and the like.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Buscadera on December 20, 2010, 01:43:06 PM
I've always made the catch in those situations be unknown and worth +0. It just doesn't make sense to me, since a major part of the catch is that it's very presence is poisonous to the character. So something with a catch of high-caliber weaponry would be burned by the touch of the barrel, even if it wasn't fired.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Belial666 on December 20, 2010, 02:11:31 PM
That is not true. Creatures are not burned by their catch due to the catch itself but due to their high concept. For example, even a faerie without toughness powers at all (and thus no catch) would be burned by Cold Iron because it is a faerie. Ditto for a vampiric creature or a shapeshifter.


Creatures are, however, uncomfortable in the presence of their catch. That is also true for almost any animal - have you ever seen animals comfortable near a fire? Near a poisonous snake?
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: MyNinjaH8sU on December 20, 2010, 02:40:30 PM
I have a were-bear character in my game that is part of a tradition of viking descendants from Norway. When determining his catch, we sat down and looked up folklore from Scandinavia and Europe on a whole about werewolves and the like, and we came upon a legend stating that planting a mountain-ash outside your home would ward them off.

From that we had a wood that could be sharpened, berries and leaves that could be made into poison, and something that can be found easily wherever it needs to be, since it seemed to be a relatively hearty plant. We ruled the catch at +3, since it is very easy to get a hold of, though most people do not have it on hand, and that with a little research by anyone looking into him they would find that he is a member of that clan, and their weakness is known.

Food for thought, hopefully.  :D
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: MijRai on December 20, 2010, 03:41:43 PM
I suggest Massive Trauma. Tht is a +2 since anyone could get it, but no bonus for knowledge. Every GM runs that Catch a little differently though, so you may wish to ask them.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Tbora on December 20, 2010, 03:44:48 PM
For species with natural armor of some kind, like the rhino's Supernatural Toughness or the bear's Inhuman Toughness, would a beast shifter need to take a Catch?

Something like... chemical weapons?  Or a particular disease?

Well yes and no, if you don't want a catch take something obscure and unknown (IE a wooden stake created from an ash tree who first sprouted under the light of the full moon during the once in a thousand years alignment of the planets near a bend in a river.)

Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: MyNinjaH8sU on December 20, 2010, 04:14:29 PM
Well yes and no, if you don't want a catch take something obscure and unknown (IE a wooden stake created from an ash tree who first sprouted under the light of the full moon during the once in a thousand years alignment of the planets near a bend in a river.)



Heh, careful. If you make it that obscure, that's basically begging your GM to weasel it in to kill you with.  ;)
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: sinker on December 20, 2010, 06:17:26 PM
I like the catch of "people with the specific intent of grinding up your horn to sell it as an aphrodisiac on the black market." Maybe a little too specific but still. ;D
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 20, 2010, 06:24:28 PM
What if the guy who's planning to grind up your horn is only doing it because he knows that that plan will let him bypass your toughness? Will that satisfy the catch?
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: sinker on December 20, 2010, 07:12:20 PM
As long as he later intends to sell it as an aphrodisiac on the black market, then yes. :P
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: ralexs1991 on December 21, 2010, 05:14:27 AM
As long as he later intends to sell it as an aphrodisiac on the black market, then yes. :P

now im waiting to hear a peta refrence
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Enjorous on December 21, 2010, 05:22:24 AM
..."always horny" not a catch but a great trouble aspect.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Blaze on December 21, 2010, 05:45:27 AM
Maybe a were rhino must fight fires.  (Anyone ever see "The Gods Must be Crazy"?)
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 21, 2010, 06:14:35 AM
   A natural creatures toughness does have a catch, its just more complicated than most Paranormal catches.
   Bears and Rhinos have a staggering amount of resistance to physical trauma of all kinds, but this armor doesn't really protect against fire, disease, poison, and suffocation. It doesn't protect the eyes or inside the mouth. So the real question is, how should you price a catch that complex? But no matter how you price the other aspects of the catch, its at least a +2, since prettymuch everyone knows, or could figure out, how to kill a Bear or Rhino.
   Someone mentioned that high caliber weapons and explosives would satisfy the catch, but I don't buy that. You can kill a Rhino with a high caliber weapon, but that is solely from the damage overcoming its toughness, not negating it (shooting a Rhino with a Desert Eagle isn't going to do as much damage as shooting a horse with the same gun).   
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 21, 2010, 06:26:05 AM
Well, some weapons suffer from overpenentration when they're used on fragile things like people. If the bullet goes right through you, that's wasted energy. If the creature's toughness is based on size rather than durability, then weapons that would just be overkill against people (like anti-tank weapons or elephant guns) become the only way to go.

That's why I give REALLY big things a catch of "weapons rated 6 or higher." Because no matter how skilled you are, you can't really hurt something 500 metres long with a sword. You could stick your sword in so deep that your shoulder gets stuck in the monster's skin and it would just be a pinprick.

I figure the same principle applies to something that's mundanely humungous.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 21, 2010, 08:33:15 AM
That's why I give REALLY big things a catch of "weapons rated 6 or higher." Because no matter how skilled you are, you can't really hurt something 500 metres long with a sword. You could stick your sword in so deep that your shoulder gets stuck in the monster's skin and it would just be a pinprick.

Or you could just stab it in the eye. A place that, nomatter how large a creature is, has no more than 6 inches of space between the outer edge and the brain (and unarmored at that). This is the logic that comes into play when you manage to overcome a creatures toughness with a weapon that couldn't reasonably penetrate its armor.
  In anycase thats not an argument for greater weapon ratings satisfying the catch. Greater weapon ratings are just more likely to do damage anyway, they don't ignore the armor. Thats just double taxation, and it makes no sense.
  Weapons with a higher weapon rating, have that rating because they are more likely to do damage to armored things. Thats already covered in the weapon stats. 
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Belial666 on December 21, 2010, 08:54:08 AM
Stabbing in the eye works for mortal creatures. Not so much for zombies, vampires, demons, elementals and similar beings that don't have vulnerable parts, don't have functional internal anatomy, don't bleed or feel shock so minor wounds won't kill them and so on.


A leviathan, that is both a supernatural entity and the size of a battleship, is not going to even be annoyed at the efforts of a speck armed with a sword.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: sjksprocket on December 21, 2010, 04:12:50 PM
I would go with something like fire as well. like already previously stated a big weapon shouldn't be a catch due to the fact that the reason it's so effective is the massive damage and not that it ignores there natural toughness. I would go with a +2 or +3 for fire myself. It's easy to come by and rather obvious.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 21, 2010, 06:00:15 PM
Stabbing in the eye works for mortal creatures. Not so much for zombies, vampires, demons, elementals and similar beings that don't have vulnerable parts, don't have functional internal anatomy, don't bleed or feel shock so minor wounds won't kill them and so on.


A leviathan, that is both a supernatural entity and the size of a battleship, is not going to even be annoyed at the efforts of a speck armed with a sword.
   And as I've already said, in what way does making large weapons a catch portray this? It doesn't. The small weapons are still just as likely to cause damage as they ever where, and all your doing is taking a class of weapons that already had rules to cover the massive damage they do, and doubling their effectiveness for no logical reason.
    The zombie argument is just plain wrong as whether or not the zombie needs its brain to live, it still needs its eyes to see. If you blow its head off, whether it remains animated or not, its taken out. Thats why Zombies have toughness and not immunity, they can still be taken out by anything.
    The Leviathan example is also irrelevant, as it would have immunity. If you're flat out immune to all lesser damage then setting the catch as "Antitank weapons" is fine.
   As an aside, the effectiveness of a weapon for satisfying a catch, should never be based on its game stats. saying, "weapon rating 6+" doesn't make any sense, as a warden sword and some items of power are weapon 6 and still aren't big enough to overcome the armor in those examples.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Belial666 on December 21, 2010, 06:36:56 PM
Actually, if you blow a zombie's head off, it will fall down (be taken out). As soon as the combat is "over" the zombie will immediately stand up and try to rip you apart, despite its extreme consequence of "head blown off".

That's because Zombie is a living dead being. Unless its body is entirely destroyed or other special means are used (i.e. the necromancy fueling it is countered) the zombie cannot die, regardless of how many holes you put into it. As soon as you acheive takeout and the combat is over, stress clears and it stands up again and again until you hack it apart piece by piece.

(vampires, revenants, some possessed bodies and other wierder monsters are also like that)
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 21, 2010, 06:58:26 PM
Actually, if you blow a zombie's head off, it will fall down (be taken out). As soon as the combat is "over" the zombie will immediately stand up and try to rip you apart, despite its extreme consequence of "head blown off".

That's because Zombie is a living dead being. Unless its body is entirely destroyed or other special means are used (i.e. the necromancy fueling it is countered) the zombie cannot die, regardless of how many holes you put into it. As soon as you acheive takeout and the combat is over, stress clears and it stands up again and again until you hack it apart piece by piece.

(vampires, revenants, some possessed bodies and other wierder monsters are also like that)
 no. it will stand up and fumble about uselessly and nonthreateningly, since it has no way to sense you but touch. It may be alive, but its no threat without a head.
   In addition to that the combat isn't "over" till the scene is over. most of the time, by the time the zombie gets back up, you're somewhere else.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Belial666 on December 21, 2010, 07:52:29 PM
Says who? A zombie's eyes are already rotten off and their brains are dead - they aren't using those sensory organs for seeing things. They are entirely directed by the will and commands of the necromancer and cannot act on their own anyway.

Now, if you shot the necromancer's head off instead...
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 21, 2010, 08:14:33 PM
I'd rule that staggering around uselessly is a compel of the HEAD BLOWN OFF extreme consequence.

As for the big monsters and their catch, I would argue that really powerful weapons are actually more effective against big things than their effectiveness against people would indicate. If you shoot a person with an anti-tank missle, most of the damage is uselessly wasted. If you shoot an elephant, the elephant's greater size means that it will absorb more of the blast wave.

As for the Leviathan's catch, I said "weapon rating 6+" because I like to put things in terms of game rules. This may or may not have been the right decision, but I'm not going to lose much sleep over it either way. Feel free to change it if you ever happen to use the Leviathan in your games.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 21, 2010, 08:33:41 PM
Says who? A zombie's eyes are already rotten off and their brains are dead - they aren't using those sensory organs for seeing things. They are entirely directed by the will and commands of the necromancer and cannot act on their own anyway.

Now, if you shot the necromancer's head off instead...

   First, the books specifically say that they do use their brains and they do think. Its only a rudimentary level of thought, but but it is their own. It causes them to think the necromancers drumming is their heart and THAT is what gives the necromancers will control over them. This fact is proven by the fact that stopping the drumming or killing the Necromancer doesn't kill the Zombie, it just sets it free.
   And saying that they could sense just as well without their sensory organs is just dumb. By that logic they can run just as well with no legs and grapple just as well with no arms. They either are physical beings or they aren't. If they are then the state of the body matters. If not then they have physical immunity.... and they don't. 
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Belial666 on December 21, 2010, 09:35:26 PM
You can't force something/someone to take consequences unless you specifically attack it after you take it out. So if the zombie is taken out, it simply falls down - unless you specifically attack its head once it is down, it can simply choose not to take the "blown off head" consequence.

Secondly, anyone aware of the supernatural can use the Lore skill to use their "inner eye" instead of physical senses at least in a general way.

Third, if someone's eyes and brain are rotten off and they are animated by an animal spirit, I'd say it is the animal spirit that is doing the seeing and thinking - but not the walking and grasping.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: hank the ancient on December 22, 2010, 03:08:27 AM
Rhino's do have piss-poor eyesight. you could make the character damn near blind in the shifted form. Maybe even put a bit of a kurosawa blind samuai spin on it.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Peteman on December 22, 2010, 05:28:51 AM
I don't think natural creatures should have supernatural based toughness powers. We should probably expand the Hulking Size powers to allow a Large Size that's between normal and Hulking, and maybe include a "tough hide" power that is size dependent and only applies to the 3.5 DND Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing style of damage.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on December 22, 2010, 05:44:43 AM
Why shouldn't animals have toughness powers?
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: toturi on December 22, 2010, 08:50:03 AM
Why shouldn't animals have toughness powers?
Maybe people against that are just hung up on "Powers" being supernatural.
First, the books specifically say that they do use their brains and they do think.
Since the books specifically say that, then perhaps you could state chapter and verse.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Cyberchihuahua on December 23, 2010, 12:39:15 AM
..."always horny" not a catch but a great trouble aspect.


..."You have something on your nose".
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: ralexs1991 on December 24, 2010, 02:23:14 PM
Maybe people against that are just hung up on "Powers" being supernatural.Since the books specifically say that, then perhaps you could state chapter and verse.
YS82 it says that were-forms must take atleast one of the inhuman skills
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: vultur on December 31, 2010, 07:20:28 AM
YS82 it says that were-forms must take atleast one of the inhuman skills

While I think you're right -- a rhino is going to be at least as strong as an ogre, so big animals should indeed have Toughness and Strength powers ...

...I'm not sure natural wolves necessarily have Inhuman Strength just because werewolves do. Bob's comments in the RPG also say that 'classic' werewolves don't generally change mass, which would make the average werewolf absolutely freakishly huge by wolf standards. Gray wolves vary a lot in size between different populations (northern ones larger, southern ones smaller) but it tends to be in the range of 60-100 pounds (red wolves, and the wolves in the Middle East and India, are smaller) -- so an adult human werewolf is likely to be about double the mass of a normal wolf (and similar to the freakish, record-sized individuals -- 175 pounds seems to be the record, at least in North America).

(Natural wolves should still have Inhuman Speed though.)
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: siggelsworth on December 31, 2010, 03:13:43 PM
If I've read correctly, Inhuman Strength/Toughness/etc. are not REQUIRED but rather are an option for a Were-Form by way of YS82-83:
Musts:"At least two refresh points’ worth of abilities from the options list below."
"Options: The character may take up to two of these abilities—Inhuman Recovery [–2] (page 185), Inhuman Speed [–2] (page 178), Inhuman Strength [–2] (page 183), or Inhuman Toughness [–2] (page 185)—so long as those abilities are in sync with the animal form he assumes.  Similarly, abilities may be taken from the Creature Feature category (page 162) or the Minor Ability category (page 169) if they can be shown to be a part of the creature’s natural advantages." 

So, at least 2 Refresh need to be spent on some combination of Inhuman ___, Creature Feature, and/or Minor Ability powers.  If the were-form doesn't change mass automatically, then it is presumed to not automatically benefit from any of the "powers" that a naturally occuring animal would have like toughness.  In our games, the player has to spend Refresh to purchase Wings, Claws, Toughness, Speed, or anything else that their animal form ought to benefit from; if they don't, then it is played as though--even if visually present--the shape shifter does not have sufficient training/control to properly utilize them.

Keep in mind that the skill shuffle still permits for some pretty amazing shifts in power.  A weakling with Average Endurance, Might and Fists shifts into a bear with Superb Endurance, Might, and Fists...that's three +4 gains in combat effectiveness without buying any powers!  IMO, this represents the "natural" improvement in toughness: a low-Endurance PC can shuffle their skills to get more tough, whereas a high-Endurance PC is already a bear of a man!
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: sjksprocket on December 31, 2010, 04:32:08 PM
 
I don't think natural creatures should have supernatural based toughness powers. We should probably expand the Hulking Size powers to allow a Large Size that's between normal and Hulking, and maybe include a "tough hide" power that is size dependent and only applies to the 3.5 DND Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing style of damage.

The supernatural powers are supernatural for a human. a human that would have the toughness of a rino would be beyond natural aka supernatural. but the toughness of a rino is natural for, lets say, a rino, so it would not be supernatural. It's called "Inhuman toughness", and since rinos aren't human, hey it fits. The whole nomenclature is based around humans.

But to something that was said earlier:
Just because a powerful weapon has wasted energy on a human, doesn't mean it doesn't still expend said energy each time. The bonus of a six shift weapon is not that it could fulfill a catch, but that it is a a six shift friggin weapon, that's pretty powerful on its own. the point of a catch is to make it so a three shift weapon that would normally effect said animal like a six shift weapon still works properly. If you take a look at two wounds done by high powered rifle, on against a human and one against a bear, the wound is bigger on the human because the natural toughness of the bear made it take comparatively less damage. Even if the rifle could, and did, take down the bear the damage was still reduced by the toughness of the bear. Try going hunting (anything), and you'll find this out real quick, trust me.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Peteman on December 31, 2010, 05:14:26 PM
I still think animals that are inhumanly tough are usually that way because they're just frakkin' big.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: devonapple on December 31, 2010, 05:40:10 PM
We could go the opposite way and specify that the Toughness *only* works against mundane weapons/claws/bullets/cars/rifles/etc., and that magic or other supernatural sources of damage satisfy the Catch. This is only a rough draft, but how does it sound as a start?
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: MyNinjaH8sU on January 03, 2011, 04:34:37 PM
I still think animals that are inhumanly tough are usually that way because they're just frakkin' big.

Then why not just use Hulking Size? That seems to make plenty of sense here.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Peteman on January 03, 2011, 11:47:23 PM
Then why not just use Hulking Size? That seems to make plenty of sense here.

I'm not the one arguing for a rhino Catch.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: devonapple on January 04, 2011, 12:09:10 AM
In OW 91, regarding Warped Beasts: "Weaknesses: Still just an animal." They are not given any Toughness powers.

And the average Werewolf in OW 92 has no supernatural toughness, either: "Weaknesses: Classic werewolves are just big and tough wolves, with no extra defenses."

Edit: And Moe the Gorilla? (OW 195). No toughness, either. Just many skill points in Might, Fists, Athletics, Endurance, and an extra mild consequence from having a Superb in one of those skills. The book even categorizes him as a "Pure Mortal," believe it or not!

In the absence of a DFRPG Bestiary of common animals, it may just be that tough animals - and theriomorphs based on those animals - need to take a higher Endurance or other physical skills, qualify for additional consequence spts, and maybe purchase some Stunts which add stress boxes on a one-for-one basis.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on January 04, 2011, 01:49:16 AM
Just here to point out that there is a (non-canon) DFRPG Bestiary on the Resources board.

PS: Moe the gorilla's Pure Mortalness annoys me greatly. He should have Inhuman Strength. They gave him four stunts that, together, are more or less the same as Inhuman Strength in both cost and effect. Besides, a gorilla is inhumanly strong by any reasonable measure.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: sinker on January 04, 2011, 06:16:04 AM
I would like to point out (Aftermath spoilers)
(click to show/hide)
We are talking about a were-rhino not a rhino. This is a supernatural being that could have supernatural toughness.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on January 04, 2011, 06:08:54 PM
That could also be handled by modular shapeshifting ability.

Richard
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: sjksprocket on January 04, 2011, 06:18:33 PM
That could also be handled by modular shapeshifting ability.

Richard

I think that might be pretty expensive though for one or two abilities. and you wouldn't get the full effect because you only have one form, the modular ability o think is only for shape shifters who have multiple forms.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: devonapple on January 04, 2011, 06:30:13 PM
I think that might be pretty expensive though for one or two abilities. and you wouldn't get the full effect because you only have one form, the modular ability o think is only for shape shifters who have multiple forms.

Modular is a pretty hefty surcharge for someone who is just taking one form, yes.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on January 04, 2011, 11:13:18 PM
I think that might be pretty expensive though for one or two abilities. and you wouldn't get the full effect because you only have one form, the modular ability o think is only for shape shifters who have multiple forms.


Maybe I'm misreading it, but wouldn't modular shapeshifting allow Billy to Shift to Inhuman Recovery, then to Inhuman speed? I.e. allow him to cycle through the inhumans with only one active at a time.

Richard
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: devonapple on January 04, 2011, 11:54:57 PM
Yes, but he's paying 2 refresh for the privilege. It's a much better investment for NPC monsters and true multiform shapeshifters who want to go from birds to rhinos to lions. And it normally takes an exchange to do it (though for 1-2 more Refresh I might allow someone to shift that to a Supplemental or Free Action - which only powerful PCs or NPCs could afford).
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: Peteman on January 05, 2011, 12:05:25 AM
I would like to point out (Aftermath spoilers)
(click to show/hide)
We are talking about a were-rhino not a rhino. This is a supernatural being that could have supernatural toughness.

Then I would go with silver. It's a classic.
Title: Re: Wererhino: The Catch?
Post by: devonapple on January 05, 2011, 12:11:17 AM
Or leave it as a +0 and make it the responsibility of the villains to research the Were-Rhino's weakness, but make it a Declaration instead of an Assessment. It could be that the character doesn't actually know its own weakness.