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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 14, 2010, 05:40:25 AM

Title: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 14, 2010, 05:40:25 AM
     I thought I'd throw this hypothetical out there for a group consensus.
     I don't think we've yet seen an example of a WCV with spellcasting ability (aside from one using a common ritual). Now the question isn't whether or not WCV's can learn magic (since they are the most human of all vampires, and we've already seen examples of wizard level magic in both the other courts, I don't see any reason to assume the Whites couldn't develop it as well).
     But, Considering that the White Court are "Living Vampires" and that magic is referred to, multiple times as being a byproduct of life (as well as being created by life and powered by life energy), and the white court need to feed directly off that same life energy. Should it be a requirement that any WCV who takes spellcasting powers, tie them to feeding dependency (except of course sponsored magic, which has an implied alternate powersource)?   
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Quazar on December 14, 2010, 06:05:05 AM
That's a fascinating question.  The only whampire we know who has performed magic in the DF would of course be Papa Raith, and that was sponsored magic so that doesn't really help us here.  Hmmm...

The way I would run it would be that their magic comes from the human part of them, so it's independent of the demon and thus the demon's Feeding Dependency.  Note that Bianca's magic is independent of her Feeding Dependency and there is even less humanity left in the Red Court.
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Hoyled on December 14, 2010, 06:09:59 AM
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Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 14, 2010, 06:11:29 AM
   But, the way the White Court feeding is described in the book, is that they mix their life force with the victim, transform some of the victims lifeforce into their own, then draw it back into themselves. Magic uses the humans lifeforce, so I'm thinking its probably the same pool of lifeforce, and the more you spend on magic, the less there is to feed the demon.
   Biancas magic would be different, since Undead magic comes from a different powersource, and the reds and blacks feed off blood, not life energy.
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 14, 2010, 06:13:35 AM
Quote from: Hoyled on December 14, 2010, 06:09:59 AM
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   I haven't read PoV yet. Only about 60 pages into Side Jobs (Blast my need to reread the whole series with the short stories in order!), so I can't comment on that yet.
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Blackblade on December 14, 2010, 07:08:30 AM
Maybe WCV casters could choose to take a point of hunger stress instead of mental stress for evocations.  Or at least use hunger stress to get extra shifts/mitigate backlash.

There is also another question: would WCV casters have to take Lawbreakers?
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 14, 2010, 07:42:31 AM
Quote from: Blackblade on December 14, 2010, 07:08:30 AM
There is also another question: would WCV casters have to take Lawbreakers?

  That would depend on the GM. Technically, the Laws only apply to mortal casters, using magic on fellow mortals. The White Court are a separate nation under the accords, so the Council has no authority over them. However, an argument could be made that the soul tarnishing effect (the purpose of the Lawbreaker power), might still apply.
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Drashna on December 14, 2010, 10:41:43 AM
I think the reason there isn't a WCV caster so far, is because of the laws and the effects of them.  It's a fine line.

Personally, I'd say the laws still apply.  They are there because of the corrupting effect it has on the caster. Slippery slope of power, as Jim continually brings up.   And the more you believe that those actions are okay, the better you get at them.   So, definitely would still have to grab lawbreaker.

And I think linking the casting to feeding dependency (and maybe human guise) is a good idea. Just imagine a caster with evocation and 3x refinement, that's a 6 refresh worth of ability.  And hopefully that's all you used in the scene. Else with a couple more powers, that's 8 or more.  That's one heck of a discipline check against hunger. :)  Good think casters need/want high discipline.
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: sinker on December 14, 2010, 03:52:06 PM
Quote from: Blackblade on December 14, 2010, 07:08:30 AM
There is also another question: would WCV casters have to take Lawbreakers?

This is a question I've been thinking about recently. Seems to me a lot of the laws are about you becoming the kind of person who would kill (or warp another in body or mind, etc), who believes themselves justified in doing so. If you're already a predator who kills (or has killed) daily to survive does that really apply?
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: MyNinjaH8sU on December 14, 2010, 04:10:53 PM
In my opinion, yes, because it is magic, the force of life and essence of reality that you are perverting, not just your own morale code. There is a cosmological difference.
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Vryce on December 14, 2010, 04:23:23 PM
I don’t see a reason why a WCV could not cast magic, i would think it would drain the soul food out of them quickly as if that was the life force they used to cast.  As other has said above WCV already use magic, he is just to lazy to really delve in to it.

As for Law Breaker, i would say no.  WCV are not human and not under the White Counsel.  If i remember right Dresden talks about how the Accords give mortal magic to the White Counsel everyone else gets to abide by the rules of their organizations.

Now would a WCV with high magic ability be alive long?  would another WCV take them out due to a perceived threat?  or use others to take out this Possible threat.  That is all just good story to bring to your game.
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: sinker on December 14, 2010, 04:59:18 PM
Quote from: MyNinjaH8sU on December 14, 2010, 04:10:53 PM
In my opinion, yes, because it is magic, the force of life and essence of reality that you are perverting, not just your own morale code. There is a cosmological difference.

But you aren't perverting all of magic. Your killing someone does not taint someone else's life force. It's your personal life force, and if you're already in a place where you put somebody else's life that far down on your list of things of value then how do you change when you kill someone with magic?
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: sinker on December 14, 2010, 05:24:31 PM
Quote from: Blackblade on December 14, 2010, 07:08:30 AM
Maybe WCV casters could choose to take a point of hunger stress instead of mental stress for evocations.  Or at least use hunger stress to get extra shifts/mitigate backlash.

Of note I think I like this the best, allowing the whampire to draw on his demonic essence if he so desires, but not making it completely intertwined.
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 14, 2010, 06:13:01 PM
   See. I think the opposite. Going with this option basically gives all WCV's that learn magic a free power, above and beyond what they payed for.
   Allowing Hunger Stress to stand in for mental stress just doubles the number of spells they can sling per scene.

 
Quote from: MyNinjaH8sU on December 14, 2010, 04:10:53 PM
In my opinion, yes, because it is magic, the force of life and essence of reality that you are perverting, not just your own moral code. There is a cosmological difference.

    This isn't really true. Harry's magic comes from life, but that is mostly because he believes it does. He readily admits that magic can and does come from other sources (In Dead Beat he says that Vampire magic comes from a darker place). The white Court Demon is one of these alternate sources.
     Also, the laws of magic are meant to show the psychological effect of a human treating his fellow humans in such a way. Monsters aren't human and therefore don't have the same type of psychology (and even if they did it would protect their own species, not us), so the laws of magic no longer apply.

Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Vryce on December 14, 2010, 06:23:29 PM
I dont like the mental stress vs Hunger either.  Seems a little OP.  All i was saying is that it would more of a aspect then anything, aka : white court vamp wizard, using souls to power magic.
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: sinker on December 14, 2010, 06:48:55 PM
Quote from: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 14, 2010, 06:13:01 PM
   See. I think the opposite. Going with this option basically gives all WCV's that learn magic a free power, above and beyond what they payed for.
   Allowing Hunger Stress to stand in for mental stress just doubles the number of spells they can sling per scene.

I think the only reason I'm ok with it is that hunger stress is a B**** to get rid of unless you're willing to kill with no compunction. Which really just means that this is a great option for GMs and a last resort, consequence kinda thing for players. I'd really think it'd even be ok if you wanted them to pay for it but I wouldn't think it'd cost much.
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 14, 2010, 08:13:27 PM
Quote from: sinker on December 14, 2010, 06:48:55 PM
I think the only reason I'm ok with it is that hunger stress is a B**** to get rid of unless you're willing to kill with no compunction. Which really just means that this is a great option for GMs and a last resort, consequence kinda thing for players. I'd really think it'd even be ok if you wanted them to pay for it but I wouldn't think it'd cost much.

   Its a single roll to get rid of ALL of your hunger stress at the end of an encounter. and if you aren't tying magic to feeding dependency, then using magic isn't making that roll any harder.
   I mean, most encounters where you're slinging spells, you aren't likely to be using much inhuman strength or speed. Nor are you likely to use recovery until later. So, that leaves inhuman toughness. This means in an average fight, the WCV could use up all his physical stress and all of his hunger stress on spells, and have it all go away afterward with a difficulty 2 roll.
   Its too powerful, it should cost at least 1 refresh.
   
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Drashna on December 14, 2010, 08:15:57 PM
In a fight, yeah, not likely to use half your abilities. Which is why i think it's fun to link spellcasting to feeding dependency.  And as for the suggestion to use hunger instead of mental stess == bad idea.   It should be use mental stress (as it is a strain on your mind, as well as your soul), and check for hunger at the end of the scene.
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: MijRai on December 14, 2010, 08:37:59 PM
Quote from: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 14, 2010, 08:13:27 PM
   Its a single roll to get rid of ALL of your hunger stress at the end of an encounter. and if you aren't tying magic to feeding dependency, then using magic isn't making that roll any harder.
   I mean, most encounters where you're slinging spells, you aren't likely to be using much inhuman strength or speed. Nor are you likely to use recovery until later. So, that leaves inhuman toughness. This means in an average fight, the WCV could use up all his physical stress and all of his hunger stress on spells, and have it all go away afterward with a difficulty 2 roll.
   Its too powerful, it should cost at least 1 refresh.
   

Why wouldn't they be using Speed? Someone shoots at them, they better dodge. And Speed gives a +4 to initiative, and using that takes Hunger Stress. If they want to hit first, they'll be doing that too.
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 14, 2010, 08:55:22 PM
Quote from: MijRai on December 14, 2010, 08:37:59 PM
Why wouldn't they be using Speed? Someone shoots at them, they better dodge. And Speed gives a +4 to initiative, and using that takes Hunger Stress. If they want to hit first, they'll be doing that too.

   Actually it doesn't. You don't have to pay stress to use the abilities tied to feeding dependency. You make a roll after the scene to see whether you take any Hunger stress. If you make the roll, you also get to clear any hunger stress you have (from prior failed rolls).
   And sure you could use inhuman speed. But this hardly counters my point. Even using inhuman speed and toughness in a fight, its only a difficulty 4 discipline roll at the end of the fight. WCVs always have a high Discipline, and one with magic has twice as much need for it. So any WCV with enough refresh to also have magic abilities (refresh 9 if he only has Ritual or Channeling) will have Discipline 5-6. Since his magic isn't making the roll harder, Hes not likely to fail very often (if ever).
   Thats why using hunger stress to supplement Mental/physical stress in magic would be nothing less than another power (and a pretty awesome one) that they would be getting for free.
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: sinker on December 14, 2010, 09:44:01 PM
Quote from: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 14, 2010, 08:13:27 PM
  Its a single roll to get rid of ALL of your hunger stress at the end of an encounter. and if you aren't tying magic to feeding dependency, then using magic isn't making that roll any harder.

Ok, yeah forgot that they can clear their stress track if they succeed at staving of their hunger. Although that's one detail that I never liked from a thematic standpoint. That's like saying that you haven't eaten for a day, but because you willed yourself through a strenuous activity and then resisted eating immediately afterwards you don't have to eat ever again (unless you do something strenuous again, then you have to think about eating). Maybe that's why I forgot about that bit.
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Nyarlathotep5150 on December 14, 2010, 10:20:26 PM
   The feeding system is kinda weird. I guess it could be a way of distinguishing the "I'm hungry, but okay" moments from the "I'm at risk of eating my friends" moments.
   I'd guess that the real feeding problems come from hunger consequences. Thus if you can control the hunger (make the roll), its not an issue till next time your pushed. If you can't control it (fail the roll), you take more stress and either take consequences, or are left more likely to take consequences next time you push yourself(consequences the GM can use to turn you on your friends).
   But yes, the feeding rules where the least intuitive system for me as well. Probably because I'm used to the V:tR system of feeding.
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Drashna on December 15, 2010, 03:41:57 AM
I've been thinking about this a lot, and came across an idea.  Why would *any* WCV learn to be a spellcaster?!?  It's too direct for them.  Only a pitiful, weak WCV would do anything so direct. Instead, they'd use catspaws. Like harry to get their magical dirty work done.  So, while it's possible, just not fitting, theme-wise.

Though there is no reason they couldn't.   It's just a matter if you decide to "attach" it to feeding dependency or not.
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: devonapple on December 15, 2010, 04:16:12 AM
My 2 cents:

I feel a WCV *could* take up spellcasting, and an inventive player could develop dramatically compelling reasons to do so. Easier to justify would be a White Court Virgin trying *not* to give in to the Hunger (if that's your flavor of trouble).

I think in the case of
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non-practitioner use of tracking spells could be explained away as a Resources Declaration that he had trained and paid money to be able to do this particular thing, or perhaps an Aspect Invocation to justify access to the ritual effect. One must admit, though, that in the fiction,
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Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Drashna on December 15, 2010, 04:39:22 AM
Very much so. Rather, it was a "common ritual" trapping of lore, as described on YS134. 
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: devonapple on December 15, 2010, 04:53:40 AM
Quote from: Drashna on December 15, 2010, 04:39:22 AM
Very much so. Rather, it was a "common ritual" trapping of lore, as described on YS134.  

I was thinking of that. I know Circles qualify, according to the canon, but I'm not sure that tracking spells would be. Then again, maybe the example we are discussing is, in fact, the canon establishing them to qualify as a common ritual? Has anyone compiled a list of these common rituals?
Title: Re: White Court Spellcasters
Post by: Motman on December 17, 2010, 03:02:01 AM
Quote from: Blackblade on December 14, 2010, 07:08:30 AM
There is also another question: would WCV casters have to take Lawbreakers?
I think they
I do not think that they would have to take a point in Lawbreaker.  Though a WCV would be sorely tempted to mess with someones mind, and would probably give in at some point in their lives.

Quote from: Drashna on December 14, 2010, 10:41:43 AM
Personally, I'd say the laws still apply.  They are there because of the corrupting effect it has on the caster.

The WCVs still have a soul (
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), so they would technically still be considered mostly human.  Maybe when they lose all of their refresh you could say they have given into the beast and lost their humanity.  I will run it in my campaign like this.  With all of the musts for a WCV, a player will only be able to get Channeling to start with and a -9 Refresh.  No points starting off for Lawbreaker.  However, for a NPC it would be very possible.  I am not sure what would happen to the Lawbreaker if they gave in to the demon and lost their soul.  Will need to think on that one.